Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => The Great War => Topic started by: Ironworker on February 04, 2008, 06:37:06 PM
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So I was watching the documentries packaged with the 2nd set of Young Indianna Jones and there was one on Manfred Von Richthofen that went with the episode he was in. It was an hour long documentry I think but for the entire documentry they couldn't even fit in a mention of Lothar a 40 victory ace. No mention of him at all. It was as if The Red Baron didn't even have a brother much less a top Ace of the Empire. All the other documentries talk about brothers and fathers and mothers and wives even if they didn't contribute anything to history other than beeing related to a famous person yet here is Lothar a winner of the Pour le Merite and he doesn't even merit a brief mention.
I know the documentry was about Manfred but really it's pretty absurd to not mention Lothar who was an equally good fighter pilots who might have scored as high as Manfred has he not been seriously wounded three times during his service.
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He was did have the second highest amount of German kills. You're absolutely right.
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Manfred is a name, Lothar is not. Sadly that is how it works. It's like asking why ever documentary/film/game from WW2 has to be set in Normandy, or, if you really want to push the boat out- Arnhem. Considering the documentary was presumably an extra the research done will have been minimal and the writers may not even have been aware.
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Manfred is a name, Lothar is not. Sadly that is how it works. It's like asking why ever documentary/film/game from WW2 has to be set in Normandy, or, if you really want to push the boat out- Arnhem. Considering the documentary was presumably an extra the research done will have been minimal and the writers may not even have been aware.
Well Lothar was acknowledged in the movie just not the documentary. I'm not an expert on the Richthofens but every thing I've read about Manfred has at least some information about Lothar as well. Also the documentry cited and quoted Manfred's autobiography and he speaks of his brother in that. Considering that the other documentaries had at least some mention of family no matter how little influence that family had to leave out Lothar in a documentary about Manfred just seems kinda dumb.
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My first source for Lothar in was ye olde Sierra game, "Red Baron," they had bios on all the big aces of the war. It was also my last source, I have not seen a word written about him since, till this thread.
I always figured he was the more dashing of the two since he was always getting injured.
Seems a bit silly to do a film on Manfred and not mention his air ace brother -- they're all the more interesting for it.
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I was flying from Hamburg to Berlin a few years back on a small Lufthansa plane. The pilot's welcome announcement came on and I was pleasantly surprised when he said "this is Captain von Richtofen welcoming you on board this Lufthansa flight ..." :D
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Nice to see the family tradition being upheld Dominic.
I read Philip Jose Farmer's Riverworld series of novels recently, and Lothar von Richthofen features in that quite a bit (alongside Sir Richard Burton, Sam Clements and Cyrano de Bergerac).
It may be a work of fiction, but Farmer does include a lot of biographical information. At first I thought it odd that he didn't use the more famous brother as a character, but Lothar definitely deserves his place in history too.
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I read Philip Jose Farmer's Riverworld series of novels recently,
always loved Farmer's books, especially Riverworld!
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He was did have the second highest amount of German kills. You're absolutely right.
Not so, but that doesn't make his carrer less noteworthy. But htere are many others in the shadow of the red baron. René Fonck, second only by 4 or 5 kills, is still leading allied ace of all times, but nobody seems to care (Did I write that? Never thought I'd break a lance for a frenchman).
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Not so, but that doesn't make his carrer less noteworthy. But htere are many others in the shadow of the red baron. René Fonck, second only by 4 or 5 kills, is still leading allied ace of all times, but nobody seems to care (Did I write that? Never thought I'd break a lance for a frenchman).
Because René Fonck "collaborated" with the Governement of Vichy during WW2... not really a matter of pride.
But even as pilot, he was not very popular among the other French pilots, cause he despised style and "beau geste". He was a very fine shooter above all, with always the same "strategy" : climb up the highest possible, wait and see, and aim the last plane of the formation, by shooting the pilot.
Sometimes, he climb again quickly to shoot the formation's leader, and then flee : simple, very efficient but not gallant at all.
Meow,
Matt
EDIT : Fonck strategy, But you can't escape Plynkes'speed about the Great War
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Yes, history can be a little cruel. Roland Garros, arguably France's most famous flier, wasn't even an ace if I recall. Yet he got his own tennis tournament and an airport named after him.
I guess he had good PR people, and also had the good sense to get himself killed, so there was zero chance of getting his honour sullied by entanglements with the Vichy regime.
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Yes, history can be a little cruel. Roland Garros, arguably France's most famous flier, wasn't even an ace if I recall. Yet he got his own tennis tournament and an airport named after him.
So cruel, that I'm sure that half the French believe now he was a tennisman. :roll:
But he was the first to install a light machine gun on his plane, and I think he broke several flight-lenght records
I guess he had good PR people
PR people ? My english is so limited that, if you use misteryous acronyms, I'm totally OOS. :wink:
Meow,
Matt
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PR= Public Relations (Relations Publiques?)
People who work to maintain a good image for a person or organisation. Like 'spin doctors' for politicians.
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PR= Public Relations (Relations Publiques?)
Thanks ! obvious now, with your perfect translation.
Like 'spin doctors' for politicians.
I knew this one, cause it's hard to follow foreign politics without, but it sounds so strange literally : "Docteur Vrille" would be a great pulp name (VRIL !)
Meow,
Matt
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"Docteur Vrille" would be a great pulp name (VRIL !)
Meow,
Matt
Taken! :-)
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Taken! :-)
I was sure you can't shut up :mrgreen:
meow,
matt
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Found this about Fonck at Wikipedia :
For all his skill and success, Fonck remained distant, arrogant, even abrasive. His comrades respected his skills, but considered him a braggart and shameless self promoter. He always seemed to resent the fact that Georges Guynemer remained more popular in the French press even after he surpassed him in victories. He was never given a command of his own, but at the end of the war he had accounted for all but 36 of Escadrille SPA.103's 111 claimed victories. Unlike many leading French aces, Fonck's score contained very few shared victories.
Fonck returned to civilian life after WW-1. During the 1920's, Fonck persuaded Igor Sikorsky to redesign the Sikorsky S.35 for the transatlantic race or Orteig Prize.[2] On 21 September 1926, Fonck crashed on takeoff when the landing gear collapsed, killing two of his three crewmembers, and Charles Lindbergh shortly afterward won the prize in 1927. Fonck eventually returned to military aviation and rose to inspector of French fighter forces just before WW II. His prewar veterans' contacts with Hermann Göring cast a shadow upon Fonck's reputation during the German occupation of France and led to allegations of collaboration with the occupying forces and the Vichy regime . However he was entirely cleared after the liberation of France in 1944. He remained in Paris but also visited frequently his native Lorraine where he had business interests . He died at age 59 and is buried in the cemetery of his native village of Saulcy-sur-Meurthe.
Fonck published his war memoirs Mes Combats, prefaced by Marechal Foch, in 1920.
Quotes
* "I put my bullets into the target as if I placed them there by hand."
* "I prefer to fly alone... when alone, I perform those little coups of audacity which amuse me..."
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Found this about Fonck at Wikipedia :
(...)
But that's Wiki, where anyone can write anything about. :wink:
Without to try to be controversial, Fonck worked for Petain, near the Germans particulary, thanks to his friendship with Goering - but he had no official title in the Vichy governement. His opposition with Prime Minister Laval obliged him to leave in 1942.
He's arrested at the Liberation in 1944, and discharge after investigation, not enough to start legal proceedings.
He supposed to be in the Resistance at the end of the war, but like a lot, lot of people afterwards. :roll:
Anyway, the shadow, as Wiki said, of his trouble behaviour, has totally "eclipse" his ace statut, and it's was not difficult cause he was far to be the most charismatic of them.
Sorry for my poor english,
Matt
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Yeah, I know Wiki.... not all is correct there but it is a helpful enceclopedia and it is really not bad at all.
WW1 Air Combat is one of my beloved topics and I know that french people dont like Fonck very much. The stuff that is written about Fonck at WIKI is also written in books and other webpages as well.
Looks like he was not such a great fellow.
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Yeah, I know Wiki.... not all is correct there but it is a helpful enceclopedia and it is really not bad at all.
I agree totally, i use it a lot, but to say :
"His prewar veterans' contacts with Hermann Göring cast a shadow upon Fonck's reputation during the German occupation of France and led to allegations of collaboration with the occupying forces and the Vichy regime . However he was entirely cleared after the liberation of France in 1944."
is an understatement, for the least.
WW1 Air Combat is one of my beloved topics and I know that french people dont like Fonck very much.
In fact, i think they totally forgot him, as half of the heroes of "L'Aeropostale". Only bookworms & nerds keep the memory flame. :wink:
I'm landing now, far too much posts today.
meow,
Matt