Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => Gothic Horror => Topic started by: mysteriousbill on June 17, 2012, 03:12:57 AM
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The miniatures are great, the setting interesting, don't really know how the rules are, but the terrain is impossible. Venice is a unique city and it would cost a small fortune to do a decent job representing it.
Any western game, you can get by with a dozen buildings to make a small town, re-aranging then as needed. Plus fights out in the country make perfect sense (the ambush at a hideout or the robbing of the stage).
Post-apocalypse and Necromunda terrain is easy to make. Some foamboard, assorted trash and bits from the bit box and you have a ruined city. Once I put together a complex with various pieces of PVS pipe that a friend had in his workshop. The smaller and stranger shaped the better. A bit of superglue, some plastic-card, grey and other dark color paints, and a dark gray cloth to put the bits on and I had a nice battlefield for under $20. Add some pieces of terrain from the other players and you had lots of different battlefields.
And Pulp and WWWII can be easily set in rural areas or small towns (a jungle, the desert, the North Woods etc.)
Even with zombie games you can get by with a couple hundred dollars worth of Plasticville, if you are a careful shopper on Ebay.
And lots of times you can use the same piece for different periods. That fantasy castle you paid a fortune for, can be the lair of a wizard, den of a vampire in the 1800s, the home of a Mad Scientist in the 20's, or your basic Nazi stronghold. Those generic looking burned out buildings can be post-apocalypse, Mordheim, WWII, whatever (OK some are specific to a time period or place, but you can buy or make others that are not). In the Middle East, park a Toyota pickup in front of the house and put a Satellite Dish on the roof it can be modern, put a camel out front and it can be Victorian.
But Venice!!! my god the work required for terrain would be enormous. Which limits the number of people who will play it.
We all admire the guy who builds himself a chunk of Stalingrad to game on, but they are few and far between. And most WWII miniature lines don't require a city setting.
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ive seen a few Carnevale Games with Worldworks Games Card Terrain (the Malifaux Stuff) not that bad me thinks ???
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ive seen a few Carnevale Games with Worldworks Games Card Terrain (the Malifaux Stuff) not that bad me thinks ???
The Terra Clips stuff??
That's a hell of a thought. I LOVE Malifaux, Carnevale looks like a ton of fun too...
If nothing else it's another source for some Deep Ones....
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I don't know about elsewhere in the world but a box of Malifaux terrain costs anout $75 here in Australia. To me that's a huge amount to pay for terrain.
But as for Carnevale... I'd guess most players would just use whatever terrain they have on hand and work from there. A few tall buildings and a canal or two... I guess. :(
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I must admit that I first thought that I accidently had opend a forum for computergames, some sort of MMO discussion perhaps. I dont see any reason to start out a constructive discussion with claiming utter failure for any game really.
I can only suggest that you make terrain that suits the setting of the game, and that can be as generic as you like, not to mention that any terrain that you make for the Carnevale setting could be used in any other game, as you allready have mentioned that other game systems terrain can be used for.
I will also point you in the direction of Faber´s fantastic Mordheim table, wich can be found http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=28462.0 (http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=28462.0), a project that easily could be used for a Carnevale setting, not to mention that the cost for his work so far, in money that is, must be rather low, considering the fact that its mainly XPS and perhaps some Depron, all carved, cut and scribbled. The paint it self can be kept at a rather low cost, if you use artists shop or DIY shop acrylics. For more ideas, take a look at Mason´s project, also for Mordheim, and kept to a reasonable cost (considering the scale of the project, and this can be found here http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=30667.0 (http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=30667.0).
I hope you find this a bit helpful, so that you might enjoy your game of Carnevale! :)
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Venice does have squares and streets, and building interiors. It just has canals as well. And the figures and rules can surely be used for settings anywhere in Italy or in large parts of Europe beyond.
Creating and selling any new game is a risk, but it would be nice if we could applaud and support those who try something a little bit different, rather than running them down.
Edit: come to think of it, how hard is a canal to simulate for a casual game, anyway? Lay down a large sheet of blue paper, and place your buildings either side of it. Done. Or, for open space, lay paved boards or printed card sheets either side of it. Simple. Of course, you could make something more elaborate, but you don't have to.
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If someone doesn't need a fullblown custom terrain table to enjoy the game, there's also the option of printing a game mat or several tiles with printed-on scenery, which would give it something like a boardgame feeling.
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Another option is to use your existing medieval buildings and make 'islands' out of foam like Faber has done.
It would not be too difficult to put together a board that would give a decent representation of Venice.
Just make a few islands and some bridges and place them over a blue or green cloth, put your buildings on top and you have a modular board that could look different every time that you play.
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what is this game? I have never heard of it or seen any adds.
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what is this game? I have never heard of it or seen any adds.
I guess this is the point : so far, Carnivale is a bit of a 'confidential' stuff. I've seen the mini (as gorgeous than expensive), enjoyed the setting (both fluff and axtravagant sceneries), but I don't know anything about the rules ...
Now, to go back to the terrain dilemna, I could say EotD shares the same problem as late Victorian London doesn't come cheap to create (and outside commonwealth, I'm not sure the setting sounds so 'familiar'). Now the difference between both games are the number of minis available, the actual rules/factions and their perspectives in terms of development.
Don't misread me : I think Carnivale is a very attractive setting and the miniatures are just brillant, but as an expensive stand alone game, I can only see clouded future ...
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On a side note, I think the 19th-century terrain for Steampunk/VSF has a lot of catching up to do compared to the abundance of modern stuff, it's rather strange that not more terrain is available while Steampunk/VSF has been growing in popularity in the last years.
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In Carnevale the games do not take place inside buildings, so they really only need to be backdrop scenery. My thought was to get some Sarrisa Precision tall frontages custom made featuring Venetian/Italian style embossed plasterwork. Then use half depth sides from MDF or Plywood arranged around the table edges with some "back to back" for mid table areas. I did start working on some designs but lack of support/interest locally has pushed this project into the background for me.
The key to a Carnevale table will be canals, and the bridges. Canals are not too difficult, although they really do need some depth below the streets/wharves so that Gondolas and small boats can be useful scenery. Bridges are more problematic as they really do set the scene and are the most uniquely identifiable Venetian structures.
The game really deserves to be more well known, the setting is unique, the rules play really well and the model concepts are stunning.
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just a quick response, but look at this years Salute Carnevale table - they only had 1 or 2 watery sections, that worked pretty well....
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Like most of the MANY miniature games that brighten our addictive avocation, Carnevale will probably not achieve the level of "success" that G.W. enjoys, but I can see it having a following. Being pragmatic creatures, the gamers will rise to the problem of setting, although perhaps not in a wonderfully artistic manner.
AND, my observation is there are more painters out there than gamers; the minis should do quite well with this community.
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Love the look. I think they could do themselves a lot of good by producing a line of cheap paper buildings and bridges. That would allow people to get started with some good looking terrain. If players wanted, they then could go on to make more solid, 3d terrain.
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I agree with Galland. The topic title is mean spirited and ill informed. Who are we, any of us, to determine what the Carnivale people consider 'success' or 'failure'. Surely getting their figures, rules and setting out to an appreciative audience is already some degree of success? Whether they ultimately reach whatever goals they've set themselves remains to be seen.
Condemning them because a display standard table is beyond the reach of many people's abilities is just silly. 40k, Warhammer Fantasy and Flames of War have all achieved financial success and popularity and most of the games played with those systems are with unpainted miniatures on flat tables. Carnivale is never going to appeal to those sorts of players, nor to competition games of which there are many. And, I dare say, it was never intended to.
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^^^
Well said, that man!
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^^^
Well said, that man!
One more to the praise of Herr Matakishis well stated oppinions.
Actually, I got to add something, and that would be the fact that I personally are currently working a bit on my own set of rules that perhaps will also yield a few miniatures to go with it. I cant say that I neither aim or hope for any kind of financial sucess, nor do I try to reach everyone with this. My goals are to share some thoughts about narrative and storydriven wargaming, with detailed rules bordering on RP games, this naturally are not to everyones taste, but its what I like, and I know I share that vision with a few others. I hope, that perhaps if I am very lucky, I will break even. However, that is not important for me in the end, I will be very happy to see my stuff printed and perhaps used by other gamers. So, if that happends, my game will be a huge sucess, for me that is.
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Well said from Galland and Matakishi! - it really wasn't very pleasant. There are "Negs" on every Forum - I've had rows with some (generally only when they start attacking an individual - as it gets my back right up).
Venetian Gothic is a term given to an architectural style combining use of the Gothic lancet arch with Byzantine and Moorish architecture influences. The style originated in 14th century Venice with the confluence of Byzantine styles from Constantinople, Arab influences from Moorish Spain and early Gothic forms from mainland Italy. Chief examples of the style are the Doge's Palace and the Ca' d'Oro in Venice.
HOWEVER their are plenty of Buildings in Venice that have a much simpler design - and follow a more "Italianesque" template in look and feel - and not that hard to do really.
As for streets and canals - Combining the Worldworks Himmelveil Sewers, Canals, and Streets would create a lovely "quasi" Venitian look in my humble opinion - and would be an excellent place to start (as was pointed out the interiors of buildings aren't used).
By digging around you can find Mediterranean resin Buildings, and there are plenty of jetty's, wharfs, and sewer resin terrain out their for the canals if you want to chuck loads of money at it (or simply get inspiration).
With the introduction of "Instant Mold" you only really need to make one window/arch/doorway anyway - then cast as many as you want, making it easy to "dress" any building you buy/scratch build take on the appearance of the more exotic Gothic forms of the grander structures of Venice!
So - if you want to try Carnevale (as I plan to at some point) don't sweat the terrain - there are plenty of options to keep you going.
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I personally are currently working a bit on my own set of rules that perhaps will also yield a few miniatures to go with it.
Intriguing . . . .
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I apologise for being so negative. I withdraw the word "doomed" and substitute may have problems achieving a large following because of the terrain demands. Any system that is set in an urban setting will have the same problems. Again great miniatures (I know I have to get some of the Deep Ones).
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Very little will discourage a dedicated gamer :D
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Just thought I'd throw in my two cents.
I loved the Carnevale setting. I loved it so much, I really wished I had thought of it myself.
I also really liked the rules, although they could use an update. There's some really cool ideas in there.
I don't think needing a lot of special Venetian style terrain kills the game at all. There's plenty of terrain alternatives out there.
What killed the game for me was the miniature pricing here in the States.
But then again I'm a cheap bastard. ;D
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Just thought I'd throw in my two cents. That killed the game for me was the miniature pricing here in the States.
But then again I'm a cheap bastard. ;D
Thats whats stopped me too (both reasons)
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I don't know about elsewhere in the world but a box of Malifaux terrain costs anout $75 here in Australia. To me that's a huge amount to pay for terrain.
But as for Carnevale... I'd guess most players would just use whatever terrain they have on hand and work from there. A few tall buildings and a canal or two... I guess. :(
In the states it is $49 for a box of card and $15 for a box of clips. I have two boxes of each type of card, and three boxes of clips.
I have gotten a LOT of use out of them. Their ability to build all sorts of interesting terrain is pretty damned impressive. The second release (more classic dungeon-fantasy) looks great too. I'm certainly not going to give anyone a hard time for raising an eyebrow to price, I don't think it's necessarily a show stopper.
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I'm pretty happy to hear so many good things about the game. I don't know that I need, or even want, another game....still though.... I have the terrain....
Darn you all.
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My take,
If you look at say Osgiliath tables from LOTR, you'll see natural parallels in architecture/styles etc, and they are often just swirly yog pots, dowel and foamcore, with a coat of coving paste/filler.
You can go as simple or as detailed as you talent/skill/budget or time allows.
Assassin's Creed 2 will have some great reference pics for 16thc. Venice. Naturally pics of the lagoon island itself are perfect resource, just don't try to build a billion tonn ocean liner in one of the canals, that would just be plain old stupid? ;)
Either way as has been said, just play the game, have fun.
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just got to this post by a message from a member, i have posted a link here to some river wall sections that i make so if they would suit just send me a mail and i am sure we can sort something out.
i list them as 15-20mm scale but they would easily do for 28mm
http://modbuildings.blogspot.co.uk/2012/03/15-20mm-river-sections.html
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I think it would actually be a fun project to make a Venice terrain board. I mean, I won't do it because I don't have enough time, but if I had, I might have made such a terrain board. I think there are loads of people who actually like making terrain boards, no matter how much time it takes. So I don't think it's doomed to fail - I just think the game is aimed at people who like making terrain, or, of course, at people who don't mind quick and easily made terrain. A few quick cardboard buildings could be enough to make a great game.
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Any of the boards mentioned above would also be perfect for Empire of the Dead....
So perhaps a generic dark city board, Venice, London or wherever, would actually play for many games....
As Vyper mentioned above, an Osciliath board is far more versatile than you may think... I re,ever playing a fantastic WW2 Stanligrad game on just such a board.... My German infantry even found an Orc hiding inside a small tower.... Which was nice.....
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(http://manorhouseworkshopmindstalkers.files.wordpress.com/2012/04/blog-villa-20.jpg)
128 euros unbuilt, there's a table for you!!! ;)
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Beautiful, simply beautiful
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Although i am an afficinado of going 3D, i do feel that ones own fantasy and imagination can go a long way.
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Commander Vyper who did that board you showed?
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$175 for that board. Does that include shipping?
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Commander Vyper who did that board you showed?
Look here (http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=39843.0) and follow the links. It's a bit convoluted to navigate but not impossible. :)
An interesting option, for sure...
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Having just returned from my first trip to Venice (got a flag...!), I'd say the long, dark extremely narrow alleyways would give an excellent Venetian flavour and they shouldn't be too difficult to create.
Doug
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One has to distinguish between a game board and a display board. Although intricate multi-levelled boards make for lovely photographs, they don't tend to have a lot of gaming longevity. Furthermore, most folks who really go the distance with certain Adventure genres, tend to hone in on their favourite setting and patiently build and collect terrain over the years. The trick for any of these games is dedication as a hobbyist. Building a matching set of useable Venetian terrain is likely no more difficult than building a beautiful Old West town, a modern downtown core, or even (in my case) a Victorian Eastern European collection. In my experience, I found that the trick to creating a tailored terrain set with lots of options was to focus and stop dabbling in all of the other ideas.
All that said, I got your tone in the beginning and understood that you were going for exaggerated emphasis and not just being mean. If I was to build a Venetian terrain set the real challenge would be figuring out how to make interchangeable pieces so that the game wouldn't get stale.
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I think the rules for Carnevale look great, and I really love their fishman models. I plan on picking up the rule book and a few starters just to give it a try and support the company. The prices for their character models are pretty steep though.
The setting is also SO unique, and I really don't think it'd be that tough to do something flavourful on the cheap in terms of terrain. I could build a decent board from the WWG terraclips sets that I have that I think would be plenty of fun to play on. Sure it wouldn't be 'accurate', but I just want something thematic and fun to play a game on. I'm not worried about actually re-creating Venice just so I can roll some dice.
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I think the rules for Carnevale look great, and I really love their fishman models. I plan on picking up the rule book and a few starters just to give it a try and support the company. The prices for their character models are pretty steep though.
The setting is also SO unique, and I really don't think it'd be that tough to do something flavourful on the cheap in terms of terrain. I could build a decent board from the WWG terraclips sets that I have that I think would be plenty of fun to play on. Sure it wouldn't be 'accurate', but I just want something thematic and fun to play a game on. I'm not worried about actually re-creating Venice just so I can roll some dice.
I was thinking about this too. Putting Terraclips over a board painted to represent dirty water might work out pretty well...
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I have the three Malifaux sets and a couple boxes of clips. I was going to use them to do some dungeon crawl gaming, but decided against it. If anyone wants them for cheap, let me know. I assembled 1/3 of the stuff one evening to get to grips with the system. It's not bad. I was about to put them up on ebay, but this may be easier.
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I have the three Malifaux sets and a couple boxes of clips. I was going to use them to do some dungeon crawl gaming, but decided against it. If anyone wants them for cheap, let me know. I assembled 1/3 of the stuff one evening to get to grips with the system. It's not bad. I was about to put them up on ebay, but this may be easier.
Hi Elbows. You might want to post your Malifaux items for sale in the bazar of Obscurities. You are more likely to find a buyer there.
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Elbows, where are you? A friend of mine was thinking of buying it, so this may be well timed :)
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I will also point you in the direction of Faber´s fantastic Mordheim table, wich can be found http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=28462.0 (http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=28462.0), a project that easily could be used for a Carnevale setting, not to mention that the cost for his work so far, in money that is, must be rather low, considering the fact that its mainly XPS and perhaps some Depron, all carved, cut and scribbled.
thanks for quoting my project, even if unfinished, Galland. It's a honour for me :)
Actually the cost of our table is really low...let's say 50€ so far?
BUT:
1) the price will increase for buldings
2) the price will increase (a big increase!) for water effect.
4) our project is still unfinished because crafting a decent Venezia-looking city is a long job
Here's my 2 cents: I like Carnevale's minis and setting, but I have to agree that it's harder than in other games to obtain a good board :)
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I'm sure with a little creativity / independence of mind Carnevale could be played in Innsmouth or along the banks of the Miskatonic river by the time of Joseph Curwen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Curwen#Joseph_Curwen).
(http://www.titania-medien.de/cms/images/stories/hoerspiele/gruselkabinett/500/gruselkabinett_24.jpg)
Then, browsing the Pikes, Muskets and Flouncy Shirts (http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?board=16.0) board here you'll find a *lot* of inspirational photos of 'pirates' harbors and Mordhem-like old towns (http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=32806.0).
And there are many (http://valleyofisk.blogspot.fr/2012/03/tavern-wip.html), many (http://zasep-statek.blogspot.fr/) 'stimulating (http://tomasminisworld.blogspot.fr/2012/08/sredniowieczne-miasto-odsona-3_18.html)' blogs (http://cianty-tabletop.blogspot.fr/search/label/Gierburg) on the web (http://www.shiftinglands.com/houses.htm).
(http://www.shiftinglands.com/House%2002/House%2002%2017.jpg)
With such deterring 'official terrain (http://vesper-on.com/images/thumbnails/images/stories/04-523x463.jpg)' Vesper-on Games should have discussed and actually encouraged on their forum possible proxy minis (http://theminiaturespage.com/boards/msg.mv?id=247614) to booster the 'taking off' of their game.
(Btw did someone mentioned the Freebooter Assassins (http://www.freebooterminiatures.de/en/catalog/miniatures/assassins) or were they too an obvious suggestion?)
(http://www.freebooterminiatures.de/sites/default/files/pub/shop/ASS001_jh_01_4317.jpg)
They were probably following the (so successful financially) GW example ("We are a complete hobby, don't give a cent to our competitors!"), but for a small company trying to launch a new and very unconventional game it's a high-risk gambit.
Coming from (quasi) historical gaming, where there is neither 'official' rules nor 'official' range of figurines to replay Kadesh or Agincourt, I feel that a GW fanboy will know the Illumination :o when (despite the efforts of the firm to enslave him through the 'official circuit (http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=44850.msg522450#msg522450)' ) he matures and realizes o_o he can play in the (rich and intriguing) 40K universe with Stargrunt2 rules and a mixture of 15mm minis.
The same of course with all games with 'official' miniatures, be it Malifaux (http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=44850.msg522244#msg522244), Mansions of Madness (http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_minisite_sec.asp?eidm=136&esem=2) and for the 18th C. A Touch of Evil (http://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/35815/a-touch-of-evil-the-supernatural-game). Such games often offer good (setting, scenario, rules..) ideas and figurines, but *nothing* restricts you to either. Every one of us can build his
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I do have to warn you...
That table is from Mannorhouse.
While they do say it CAN be used for 28mm, it really is made for their 40mm figs.
I bought alot of this terrain sight unseen, and found it to be on the 'almost too large' side. Doors are too big, windows are too high, etc...
Granted, beautiful, but big...