Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => Other Adventures => Topic started by: RepublicsFury on August 13, 2012, 07:03:52 PM
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Malifaux is going plastic.
As with many miniatures companies Wyrd Games is opting to go plastic. I can't say that I approve of the move. For me I wont buy minis that are plastic. If it aint lead it's dead. I suppose it would have been one thing if the price went down significantly but the prices aren't going down. Oh don't get me wtong, I'll still play the game but won't buy new figs.
Am I in the minority, or are most miniaturists out there willing to play with plastics?
RF
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I don't really care as long as they're reasonably priced, well sculpted and well produced. I've seen some extremely well done plastics, and some atrocious metals...and vice-versa.
Switching over to plastic models without providing any kind of cost savings to the customer doesn't seem right though. I think the Malifaux models look great for the most part, but their prices are high even for metal models. I don't play, and the switch certainly doesn't sound like it will entice me to change my mind.
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Within reason, I don't care what a mini is made of as long as it's a decent cast & reasonably priced for the quality. Plastics do have the benefit of being easy to convert/modify.
For the mini maker the cost of equipment necessary to produce plastics is SO MUCH more than that of metals, he'd better be sure of his market before investing.
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I'm not one to say placcie minis are heretical or anything but a good 90% of my collection is metal. I've never really gotten to interested in a game with plastic minis for some reason. I've got the Warzone plastic troopers and some Tyranids but the rest of my collection is metal. Usually it's that the price is invariably the same as metal so if I'm parting with change I want the heft of lead.
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Plastic or resin doesn't bother me as long as the quality and cost are attractive. Seems like producing plastic minis for a game where you need only one of each figure is very expensive compared to Perry or Wargames Factory, etc...who produce figures for building armies. Even though I know it is quite costly to produce a plastic mini, I hate paying the same price for a single plastic toy as I paid for a weighty, hard, shiny metal toy. :?
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It's going to be ABS plastic though, so I think it should hold detail pretty well and be somewhat damage resistant. We'll see how they turn out. I'm not opposed to plastic in general, but it has to look good.
On a side note that Troll Cast stuff the chap on Frothers was casting in looks fantastic. I would buy anything made in it.
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I do like metal myself. I've probably mentioned that I do all my metals (armour, swords, etc) as unpainted ink washes whenever possible.
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Even though I know it is quite costly to produce a plastic mini, I hate paying the same price for a single plastic toy as I paid for a weighty, hard, shiny metal toy
Well, they do promise to include more option bitz per kit in the future so it would compensate a little for the "same price for plastic as for metal" part. One notes that moving to plastic is only part of the deal - they are going to CAD as well at the same time. So it's pretty much a complete reboot of the entire line.
As a side note, I don't play Malifaux, or plan to, although I have one or two random minis from the line gathering dust somewheres. Might get a few more even if they are "cadded placcies" :P
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I am another fan of plastics. I like the ease with which they can be converted and find that painted hard plastic figures do not suffer paint rubbing/chipping the way metal ones do (despite varnish coats). The material is certainly not stopping me.
The excessive price on the other hand has. Malifaux is far too expensive, if plastic = cheaper then I may have been tempted.
On a side note that Troll Cast stuff the chap on Frothers was casting in looks fantastic. I would buy anything made in it.
Agreed this material is amazing. I have a set of the goblins he does and they are wonderful. Very crisp detail, no flash, no holes or miscasts, good undercuts and it has a surprising degree of flexibility and snap resistance for a hard plastic. To my mind the perfect gaming figure material.
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As interested as I have been with the mish-mash setting of Malifaux, I've yet to buy a single mini. With the move to plastic, and the previews they've shown for the new minis, I can say for certain I'll be getting into this game in a big way.
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Too expensive for me in metal so it's a no-hoper anyway.......
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But *why* to feel compelled to play Malifaux with 'official' figurines?
Coming from historical (almost: Hyboria) gaming I can't but feel the 'compulsory' association of a setting with a set of rules and a range of miniatures totally... artificial (if a clever marketing trick). If you want to re-fight Gaugamela, you enjoy a free choice from very different rules and a cornucopia of miniatures ranges. Then, this is also true of any fictional setting: a GW fanboy will know illumination when realizing he can play in the WH40K intriguing universe with Stargrunt2 rules and a mixture of 15mm minis! Thus I'm sure Malifaux can be enjoyed with very different figurines; as a fan of ('alternate', specially) 18th C. :ohttp://1.bp.blogspot.com/_Dilwnimo0MI/RuAd3SB9FII/AAAAAAAAAK4/7rhD0NXq_kg/s1600-h/Absurdie.JPEG (http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_Dilwnimo0MI/RuAd3SB9FII/AAAAAAAAAK4/7rhD0NXq_kg/s1600-h/Absurdie.JPEG) ;D when I read exciting reports of 'adventure' games traditionally set in other periods (earlier -3 Musketeers type swashbuckling- or later -gothic horror, Lovecraftiana, VSF...), or view movies such as 'Gingersnaps - the beginning' or 'Werewolf - the beast among us', I dream of having them set in the tricornes era.
Such commercial games do exist, 'A touch of evil' http://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/35815/a-touch-of-evil-the-supernatural-game (http://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/35815/a-touch-of-evil-the-supernatural-game) / http://www.flyingfrog.net/atouchofevil/ (http://www.flyingfrog.net/atouchofevil/) and 'Carnevale' http://www.vesper-on.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=section&layout=blog&id=6&Itemid=12&lang=en (http://www.vesper-on.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=section&layout=blog&id=6&Itemid=12&lang=en) but why staying 'enslaved' to them (though they can be a good source of minis and ideas)?
When enjoying to read a 'Chaos in Carpathia' campaign http://geektactica.blogspot.fr/search/label/Gothic%20Horror%20Campaign (http://geektactica.blogspot.fr/search/label/Gothic%20Horror%20Campaign) I fail to see why it could not be played with minis in tricorne. And can't help thinking 'Pike and Shot and zombies' could be used to play 'Pride and prejudice and zombies' by the time of Barry Lyndon (http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=32208.msg472801#msg472801)
A 18th C. transposition of 'Strange Aeons' was successfully attempted http://anatolisgameroom.blogspot.fr/search/label/Strange%20Aeons%2018th%20century (http://anatolisgameroom.blogspot.fr/search/label/Strange%20Aeons%2018th%20century) (could as well be done with 'Mansions of Madness', I'm sure), so I regularly bore the TMP readers with suggestions to play 'Empire of the Dead' http://theminiaturespage.com/boards/msg.mv?id=276792 (http://theminiaturespage.com/boards/msg.mv?id=276792) and even 'Malifaux' http://theminiaturespage.com/boards/msg.mv?id=251127 (http://theminiaturespage.com/boards/msg.mv?id=251127) by Lace Wars times.
(and since I joined the LAF I don't spare its members http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=44255.msg517366#msg517366 (http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=44255.msg517366#msg517366) / http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=32208.msg472801#msg472801 (http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=32208.msg472801#msg472801) / http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=42516.msg514954#msg514954 (http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=42516.msg514954#msg514954) / http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=43074.msg503774#msg503774 (http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=43074.msg503774#msg503774) ;) )
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But *why* to feel compelled to play Malifaux with 'official' figurines?
Coming from historical (almost: Hyboria) gaming I can't but feel the 'compulsory' association of a setting with a set of rules and a range of miniatures totally... artificial (if a clever marketing trick). If you want to re-fight Gaugamela, you enjoy a free choice from very different rules and a cornucopia of miniatures ranges. Then, this is also true of any fictional setting: a GW fanboy will know illumination when realizing he can play in the WH40K intriguing universe with Stargrunt2 rules and a mixture of 15mm minis! Thus I'm sure Malifaux can be enjoyed with very different figurines; as a fan of ('alternate', specially) 18th C. :ohttp://1.bp.blogspot.com/_Dilwnimo0MI/RuAd3SB9FII/AAAAAAAAAK4/7rhD0NXq_kg/s1600-h/Absurdie.JPEG (http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_Dilwnimo0MI/RuAd3SB9FII/AAAAAAAAAK4/7rhD0NXq_kg/s1600-h/Absurdie.JPEG) ;D when I read exciting reports of 'adventure' games traditionally set in other periods (earlier -3 Musketeers type swashbuckling- or later -gothic horror, Lovecraftiana, VSF...), or view movies such as 'Gingersnaps - the beginning' or 'Werewolf - the beast among us', I dream of having them set in the tricornes era.
Such commercial games do exist, 'A touch of evil' http://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/35815/a-touch-of-evil-the-supernatural-game (http://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/35815/a-touch-of-evil-the-supernatural-game) / http://www.flyingfrog.net/atouchofevil/ (http://www.flyingfrog.net/atouchofevil/) and 'Carnevale' http://www.vesper-on.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=section&layout=blog&id=6&Itemid=12&lang=en (http://www.vesper-on.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=section&layout=blog&id=6&Itemid=12&lang=en) but why staying 'enslaved' to them (though they can be a good source of minis and ideas)?
When enjoying to read a 'Chaos in Carpathia' campaign http://geektactica.blogspot.fr/search/label/Gothic%20Horror%20Campaign (http://geektactica.blogspot.fr/search/label/Gothic%20Horror%20Campaign) I fail to see why it could not be played with minis in tricorne. And can't help thinking 'Pike and Shot and zombies' could be used to play 'Pride and prejudice and zombies' by the time of Barry Lyndon (http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=32208.msg472801#msg472801)
A 18th C. transposition of 'Strange Aeons' was successfully attempted http://anatolisgameroom.blogspot.fr/search/label/Strange%20Aeons%2018th%20century (http://anatolisgameroom.blogspot.fr/search/label/Strange%20Aeons%2018th%20century) (could as well be done with 'Mansions of Madness', I'm sure), so I regularly bore the TMP readers with suggestions to play 'Empire of the Dead' http://theminiaturespage.com/boards/msg.mv?id=276792 (http://theminiaturespage.com/boards/msg.mv?id=276792) and even 'Malifaux' http://theminiaturespage.com/boards/msg.mv?id=251127 (http://theminiaturespage.com/boards/msg.mv?id=251127) by Lace Wars times.
(and since I joined the LAF I don't spare its members http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=44255.msg517366#msg517366 (http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=44255.msg517366#msg517366) / http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=32208.msg472801#msg472801 (http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=32208.msg472801#msg472801) / http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=42516.msg514954#msg514954 (http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=42516.msg514954#msg514954) / http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=43074.msg503774#msg503774 (http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=43074.msg503774#msg503774) ;) )
Abdul666lw you always make me laugh because of the sheer number of links you use in your posts! About Malifaux strange they choose for plastic as I thought malifaux was a skirmish game with not so much miniatures on one side?
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Maybe they are enjoying the good fortune of having made the players want to buy into much more than a single faction and moreover to want to get everything for every faction they buy into? When everybody buys one of everything, it sums up to a not insignificant amount, one supposes.
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Thus I'm sure Malifaux can be enjoyed with very different figurines
This point of view seems not to be shared by a considerable number of people. There are a good many who mix and match miniatures fairly freely of course but some just don't seem to want to do it. Perchance they are in the more-or-less official tourney circuit for their specific games, or play at gaming clubs/game stores with more-or-less official reps from the respective companies - several of which do like to proscribe limitations to use of third party stuff and in some cases even conversion.
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Not really bothered what they make the minis out of as long as they are good.
If they keep the same price for plastic as they do for metal, then I think I've bought my last from Wyrd.
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If it aint lead it's dead.
Figures are made of pewter nowadays... ;)
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I don't care as long as quality is there. GW's plastics are phenomenal!
I'd like to see some of the bigger flintloque models in resin, such as the trolka, simply for weight! Sure, I love having a heavy army, but posting them across the world costs the guys a fortune. They are not interested in venturing outside of metal though.
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I don't care as long as quality is there. GW's plastics are phenomenal!
Agreed.
I'm into this hobby for only three years, so for me metal minis are as much a part of the hobby as plastics.
However, for heroes and command miniatures, I do prefer metal miniatures. I suppose it's got something to do with the weight.
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Maybe they are enjoying the good fortune of having made the players want to buy into much more than a single faction and moreover to want to get everything for every faction they buy into? When everybody buys one of everything, it sums up to a not insignificant amount, one supposes.
As a former Malifaux player: This is correct. However, it was very easy to do when investing in half dozen figures was enough to qualify for any faction. Unfortunately this element of Malifaux has been swamped by the constant push by Wyrd to release more and more. The game itself was great, quirky and bizarre but I hardly recognise the game from when it was first released.
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About Malifaux strange they choose for plastic as I thought malifaux was a skirmish game with not so much miniatures on one side?
The average crew is between five and eight. There are definitely outliers on the bell curve. I've seen crews with four (VERY rare) and as many as twenty for a Master that generates models in game. The game is Scenario driven, and that scenario is determined before crew selection is made. This allows people to tailor their crews for the tasks at hand, a pretty fun way to play the game to my mind. I really have come to detest the "all comers" list idea now.
Considering the price of time has skyrocketed over the last couple of years, and won't be slowing down, and certainly not be dropping, any time soon, I think we're going to see this change from metal more and more. Kev from Hasselfree did a great post about it, he's definitely feeling the pinch staying with the material.
The plastics that Wyrd has made are gorgeous. There is a great article to be found on Yahoo Finance http://finance.yahoo.com/news/gamers-descend-gen-con-2012-120000165.html about their process.
Also, I went and volunteered with Wyrd over GenCon in the States. So, obviously I'm a fan. I get that not everyone is going to happy about the move to plastic, if it helps them continue to make games, I'm all for it.
If anyone is interested, I took a few pictures while at the convention. There are pictures of all of the plastic sprues I bought, front and back.
http://photobucket.com/Jon-GenCon2012
password is gencon
Nope, not really original.
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I don't care as long as quality is there. GW's plastics are phenomenal!
I'd like to see some of the bigger flintloque models in resin, such as the trolka, simply for weight! Sure, I love having a heavy army, but posting them across the world costs the guys a fortune. They are not interested in venturing outside of metal though.
GW now has my second favorite plastics :D They're still definitely my go to bitz company.
I worry when companies say they won't stray from metals. With the prices on that market I really worry how long they'll be able to maintain their current prices, or even hold good on that promise. If watching this industry has taught me anything, it's that the adaptable companies are going to stay around longer. I guess that's true in business in general though.
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I really, really wanted that tree, I just can't get past the price. That said I'll still give at least one or two of the new plastics a shot.
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I really, really wanted that tree, I just can't get past the price. That said I'll still give at least one or two of the new plastics a shot.
Yeah, I can understand that. A limited run of an injection molded plastic set can be a bit rough. I don't regret picking it up at all, I intend to mimic them with some hand sculpted pieces as well.
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I have never understood the apparent near-religious fervor some have for metal miniatures (over other materials- I completely understand the general fervor for miniatures! ;D )
Minis started out in lead because it was cheap both in material and casting cost, then lead went away, and tin-based alloys are no longer cheap.
Looking back at old lead minis from the 80's and older can anyone say that the crispness of detail is better than good plastic minis today?
There are numerous examples of plastic miniatures that have as fine and smooth of detail; as the best metal or better.
If the material can handle the sculpt and is durable, does it really matter what the material is?
The notion that one material is intrinsically better than another seems illogical.
I paint miniatures and hope my opponents do too, so I can't see what the material under the paint is, so why does it matter?
It is the look of the miniature that matters to me, not it's weight, gravity well or resale value of the raw material.
So, are you playing a game and buying miniatures because you like the look of the miniatures or because you have a love for the material it is made from? If the later perhaps purchasing from a commodities broker might be more enjoyable than from a game store. ;)
For me, all things being equal: casting detail, smoothness, etc, I'd even prefer plastic if I have plans to convert it, since it's easier to work with, but I can not understand deciding to abandon a game I enjoy over the material the miniatures are made from if it doesn't negatively impact the aesthetics of the miniatures, and I don't think a case could be made that plastic has reduced the quality of this line.
I haven't played Malifaux, but have used several of their minis for other game systems and liked their metal & their resin, I doubt plastic will be any different.
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Personally I prefer plastic over resin and metal figures, provided the sculpting and casting results in a good quality figure. Why do I prefer plastic? Three reasons:
1) Plastic figures are lighter and easier to clean up.
2) Customizing or trimming figure parts to fit is way easier.
3) I have never had to pin a plastic figure together.
While I do like a nice hefty feel to a figure, I'd rather have one that I can be sure won't break or explode into pieces if it tips over on the table. I've never tipped a plastic figure over and had pieces of it break off, but it happens with metal, even sometimes when they're pinned. Plus I'm lazy and hate pinning then having to add green stuff over the seams in metal figures. It's far less frequently required with well-cast plastics.
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Hey, plastic-adventure.de is that-a-way... >:(
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Hey, plastic-adventure.de is that-a-way... >:(
LoL!
True, soon enough it'll be the same direction financial as solvency for a lot of miniature companies. There's a reason so many studios, large and small, are moving away from metal. It's not because they want to mess with their customers, it's because they want to stay in business, while still feeding their families.
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Hey, plastic-adventure.de is that-a-way... >:(
Heh, but when was the last time anyone here on lead adventure actually purchased a REAL lead figure? For me it was last summer, but it was a DC figure from the UK, not a gaming miniature. :P
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@ 6milphil Duh, cept there are figs that arent: Reaper has a line with some lead and Alternative Armies is all lead. So my catch phrase, though meant to be fun, is somewhat accurate. And I'm sorry that's all you got out of the thread... hope it gies better for you soon. :D
RF
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@ 6milphil Duh, cept there are figs that arent: Reaper has a line with some lead and Alternative Armies is all lead. So my catch phrase, though meant to be fun, is somewhat accurate. And I'm sorry that's all you got out of the thread... hope it gies better for you soon. :D
RF
It's a shame that THAT was the only thing you took from this thread.
I hope it gets better for you soon :D
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First, i think that you can find alternative miniatures from other makers in metal that will fit in a game and second, my main concern is the quality of the sculpt. However, there's something about a miniature in metal that is special.
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First, i think that you can find alternative miniatures from other makers in metal that will fit in a game and second, my main concern is the quality of the sculpt. However, there's something about a miniature in metal that is special.
I think the plastics are GORGEOUS. They're actually doing more in the material than they did with most of their metals. I'll see if I can find some pictures of the assembled plastics.
I have to be honest, I don't have the same nostalgia for metals that a lot of people seem to have. They were NEVER as a crisp as a resin cast could be. With a molten metal that cools, changing its size and shape slightly, it's just impossible to get the fidelity in metals that you can get in other material. Even though I've been gaming for thirty years, and grew up with lead, then pewter for the most part I just think they never looked as good as a well cast resin, or plastic.
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"Thus I'm sure Malifaux can be enjoyed with very different figurines"
This point of view seems not to be shared by a considerable number of people. There are a good many who mix and match miniatures fairly freely of course but some just don't seem to want to do it. Perchance they are in the more-or-less official tourney circuit for their specific games, or play at gaming clubs/game stores with more-or-less official reps from the respective companies - several of which do like to proscribe limitations to use of third party stuff and in some cases even conversion.
Yes, the irritating 'We offer an entire hobby, don't give a cent to our competitors' marketing trick to 'enslave' consumers ; at least it is not (as yet) required that Malifaux ©®™ figurines are painted only with Malifaux ©®™ paints using Malifaux ©®™ brushes :D
But, for companies not yet the size of an 'Evil Empire', to *encourage* the use of proxy minis (and the use of their rules in other settings / time periods) can only booster the 'taking off' of a game (think Carnevale, for instance). Actually if gamers are not brainwashed with the 'use only official minis' doctrine, they will be more prone to buy figurines from a manufacturer to play with the rules of another, for instance some Malifaux minis can be used to play Carnevale (http://theminiaturespage.com/boards/msg.mv?id=247614), others in Fantasy, Gothic Horror and Steampunk games : and in the end all companies producing good rules or good (and 'mainstream' size) and not outrageously expensive minis would benefit.
Besides, I'm not convinced by the 'wysiwyg' argument: even an 'official' figurine *never* perfectly reflects what the character is currently doing, his state (despite the 'clix' bases), what he is carrying... That's why to use minis is one of the two experiences (the other being to use 'Rolemaster' rules ;) ) most role players never repeat...
Then, don't forget that in our games figurines fulfill two functions:
- to show where the persona is (for this only the base matters) and to act as a quick reminder of its main characteristics: a cardboard chip bearing a few symbols would be perfectly equivalent;
- to provide eye-candy.
Thus a possibilities for a miniature to 'count as' are limited only by personal taste and mutual agreement.
More decades ago than I care to compute I fought many Ancient battles with my Minifigs 'javelin & shield' Aureola Rococo Amazons 'counting as' Egyptian or Assyrian spearmen, Greek hoplites, Carthaginian veterans, Roman legionaries (from the Republic to the Late Empires), Byzantine scutatoi... Given they were mostly topless my (male, young and testosterone-filled) opponents willingly accepted the 'count as' conventions :D
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...But, for companies not yet the size of an 'Evil Empire', to *encourage* the use of proxy minis (and the use of their rules in other settings / time periods) can only booster the 'taking off' of a game (think Carnevale, for instance). Actually if gamers are not brainwashed with the 'use only official minis' doctrine, they will be more prone to buy figurines from a manufacturer to play with the rules of another, for instance some Malifaux minis can be used to play Carnevale (http://theminiaturespage.com/boards/msg.mv?id=247614), others in Fantasy, Gothic Horror and Steampunk games : and in the end all companies producing good rules or good (and 'mainstream' size) and not outrageously expensive minis would benefit...
I think you are looking at things wrongly here, sorry to say. :)
Rule-sets are not the main revenue stream of most skirmish minis companies - the minis themselves are. So proxying is all well and good, but is not likely to sustain the line in question, since rule-book sales themselves will not sustain the line.
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Rule-sets are not the main revenue stream of most skirmish minis companies - the minis themselves are. So proxying is all well and good, but is not likely to sustain the line in question, since rule-book sales themselves will not sustain the line.
That is rather the impression I've gotten as well. Admittedly I've never seen exact numbers from any company to bolster that up, but with that caveat...
...I'm not sure if rulebooks make serious profit even for the big players of minis gaming biz or even the giant in the playground -- y'all know who that is. Indeed, I do think some rulesets are actually written because they are seen as necessary promo material for the minis, not because the people involved are set on making a fantastic game per se.
Proxying for your game does eat from the income from the minis, which is why official and semi-official gaming company reps don't as a rule encourage it -- or at least shouldn't IMCO. I actually once upon a time looked into joining the volunteer demo force for i-Kore and do seem to distinctly recall they had a contraint clause to the effect of "only painted i-Kore miniatures allowed in demos". Not sure what order other companies want you to follow when you sign your name in blood :P
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Don't forget the potential *reciprocity* between different figurines manufacturers.
All of them (if selling 'good' minis) would benefit from a wider market if players buys were not 'clouded' with the 'official mini' paradigm.
I'm not sure it's wise for small and middle-sized companies to ape the marketing practice so successful for the *gigantic* GW.
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I would think that form the company POV, the market share of the small, "reciprocal" companies would need to grow significantly before the growing size of the cake overcomes the relatively thinner slice everybody would need to be content with if all actively encouraged the use of other manufacturers' miniatures. Thus, companies don't tend to be all that reciprocal. I've seen attempts to encourage it in the other business fields but it tends not to work unless a big company or other organization is orchestrating it all.
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@abdul666lw:
I think that whilst much of what you're saying is valid, you have to also consider the environment that these games are played in. If players play at their local store, then both the store and the game manufacturer want you to buy at least "mostly" official figures, or there is no money in it for them (as their game isn't being promoted in a way that translates into sales for them).
Also, you have to consider how many games and rulesets are out there! Why should new players want to play your game?
The answer is (often) because your game has a unique twist or highly-specific background where the rules let you do certain things that simply don't happen at all in other games, but which work very well in the context of your unique setting.
Players who play your game -because they like the world you have created and enjoy the rules- want to play with forces that are in character for your game and its background.
Changing the background and character of the game does offer more freedom to play with other figures and terrain, but it also genericizes the game and what drew them to it in the first place. It also means that all your hard work in designing a game, rules and models is simply taken out of your pocket by those that came before you and have already sold models to your potential customers. (I suspect that manufacturers of "historicals" must have this problem to a greater extent, as few seem to make much money when all's said and done).
Whilst I am very sympathetic to this, I also acknowledge that too many people take this too far (in both ways)...
For example, I don't expect to be kicked from an "official" event because I wanted a particular model in my force, but chose to use a different manufacturer's model for it; not when the rest of the force is "official", and the whole force is unified and in character (and where even the substituted model is an obvious and good fit). That is just unnecessary and churlish IMO.
However, games at home or at private non-official / non-store venues can use whatever you damn well please. You want to represent an APC with a Coke can? That's fine as long as both you and your opponent are happy with that - and why not?!
That you aren't supporting a game by buying official models doesn't matter to the same extent either, as it is quite possible that you will buy the official models for use in a different game anyway; and nobody will be confused, because all those involved will know what's what (or should do!).
For example, I might use the Colonial Vanguard models from Battle for Alabaster as a Space Marine army against my opponent's Tyranids. And the next time we play, he might use those same Tyranids as Strain in our game of BfA. That confuses nobody, both manufacturers make sales, and no onlookers get the "wrong impression" of the game either.
So, I think that it is important to support what you like (by buying the figs - i.e., where the money is for manufacturers), regardless of what game they are for. But when in "public" or at official events -events that exist to promote the game(s) in question to new players- the requirements to stick to the "correct" models are often quite reasonable. What you do outside of those events however, is up to you and your friends to decide (and there is no right or wrong choice there!).
@ RepublicsFury:
If Wyrd want to go down the route of plastics, and you don't like that, then I see no reason to stop playing altogether... Although though I can see why you probably wouldn't play at a store or official events.
If you like the game, and have figures already, and are prepared to proxy future releases with figures from other manufacturers, then you should feel free to carry on. Only when it stops being fun should you stop! ;)
I also am not keen on Wyrd's move to plastic for example, but I do already have quite a lot of crews for Malifaux in metal. I will keep those crews, and continue to play the game; even to buy the new books as they come out. But I will probably regard the game as a closed system and put a moratorium on using rules and figures beyond Book X when playing with others outside of my group. Within my group, we can all use whatever models we like (plastic or otherwise), and keep playing as normal. That way, I'm not affected by the move to plastic, and nor am I locked out of playing a game I enjoy if I want to play at store or such. I have still supported the game I like (and will continue to buy books and post on the forums, etc), but have also sent a clear message to Wyrd with my wallet that I am not interested in plastics from them.
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HATE PLASTIC, nuff said. THE CID. >:(
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Malifaux players use Malifaux figures because they come with the stat card.
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Malifaux players use Malifaux figures because they come with the stat card.
Some of us continue to use them, and buy them, in order to support the company.
Sure, the stat card is nice, they're easy enough to make for someone that wants to.
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Malifaux players use Malifaux figures because they come with the stat card.
You can buy the stat cards directly from Wyrd to if you want. That way, you get the most up-to-date printed version of the cards, support Wyrd (albeit in a small way), and can still use your own figs too. 8)
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Yes that's true, and perhaps that's a nice way around using plastics by purchasing the stat cards from Wyrd and then using what ever you want to use. Perhaps, as long as they keep offering stat cards, there is hope for continuing buying the new rules, and novels (which they've said they were coming out with), and perhaps even the RPG (if it ever comes out).
I still see their move to plastics as a bad thing (for me. I'm not suggesting that people can't use plastics, just that by God I'm not going to).
I'll bring this concept up to the players and see if they're willing to bend on doing away with Malifaux all together or do they still want to shuck it in the dirt and move on to something like Empire of the Dead.
Time will tell.
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Even if you don't like plastics at all, the new book is REALLY well written. It's much cleaner in writing style with the rules than the other, and there are some GREAT models in there.
They're definitely showing how much they're learning as they go on.
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@emills (from different thread)
Basically it boils down to plastic figures aren't something we're willing to support! Not gonna happen. So Wyrd is out! I'd rather sculpt and cast my own figs or switch ot a different game. Plastic figs suck.
Ok, now having said that, and having listened to everyone here and on different threads I am of the oppinion that IF and I mean IF the plastic is the right plastic and can take high temps, be drilled, pinned, etc rhen MAYBE plastic or the right kind of resin would be acceptable. Wyrd's plastic is not.
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Ok, now having said that, and having listened to everyone here and on different threads I am of the oppinion that IF and I mean IF the plastic is the right plastic and can take high temps, be drilled, pinned, etc rhen MAYBE plastic or the right kind of resin would be acceptable. Wyrd's plastic is not.
Actually, where are you getting that data? I own some, and it's the toughest plastic I've found yet. It's superior to GW's, and definitely PP's. It's had no problems with high temperatures, is easily drilled, and pinned.
If you dislike plastic, you dislike it.
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Personally I prefer plastic over resin and metal figures, provided the sculpting and casting results in a good quality figure. Why do I prefer plastic? Three reasons:
1) Plastic figures are lighter and easier to clean up.
2) Customizing or trimming figure parts to fit is way easier.
3) I have never had to pin a plastic figure together.
While I do like a nice hefty feel to a figure, I'd rather have one that I can be sure won't break or explode into pieces if it tips over on the table. I've never tipped a plastic figure over and had pieces of it break off, but it happens with metal, even sometimes when they're pinned. Plus I'm lazy and hate pinning then having to add green stuff over the seams in metal figures. It's far less frequently required with well-cast plastics.
I agree that those are three very important points.
Something I'm hoping to see Wyrd do, at least gradually, is re-release some, if not all, of its older models in plastic. If they hadn't jumped on releasing their alternate models along with their avatars during the last Malifaux year (GenCon 2011 to GenCon 2012), those would be quite the impetus to get players to rebuy those models in plastic (not that it stopped us from rebuying them in metal). Even if they don't make alternate sculpts of the old models, their plastic editions would be useful for quite a few of them (as in a lot of the avatars that didn't already get the resin treatment, and Nekima with her fragile ankle).
The plastic models are so inspiring as far as customizing them. I'm planning on borrowing a page from LoboStele's book and putting LEDs into certain models for dramatic effect. With Miss Terious, I want to put an eerie green glow emanating from her death marshal's coffin. For metal gamin and the rail golem, the bright red of the fire glowing in their bellies.
So far I only have the Hanging Trees and Miss Terious. My complaints with them are minimal. I'd say they might need to change the "printing" size for the plastic models, as they're a wee bit too tiny compared to their metal counterparts. It makes heads and hands even tinier than the original Sword Vikie, and she was a pain to keep together. It also makes other details like the hanging ropes far too fragile. One of the Eric's ropes broke in shipping. The other snapped of when I was snipping the sprue at his feet in an attempt to more carefully remove him. Other than that, assembly and mold line cleanup was a breeze.
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Why do I prefer plastic? Three reasons:
1) Plastic figures are lighter and easier to clean up.
2) Customizing or trimming figure parts to fit is way easier.
3) I have never had to pin a plastic figure together.
I'll give you that plastics are lighter - important if you have to cart 200+ models around - but I'm not so sure on the rest.
A lot depends on the type of metal and the type of plastic used. A lot also depends on how the miniature is designed and fits together, and how good production quality and QA is.
I recently got Lazarus... I pre-ordered before the plastic announcement, and as that was the only Wyrd plastic I had on order, I thought I'd leave the order standing and assess the model when it arrived on its own merits.
My comments on Lazarus are as follows:
1/ There is a huge number of pieces for what is essentially a pretty straightforward model (would have been 3-4 pieces in metal, but this has something like 25 pieces and none of them are "optional extras"!).
2/ The "instructions" are hilari-bad. You get an exploded diagram that misses out all the connectors and where the steel screw goes. Yes, you get a metal screw in the kit... To screw parts of it together... Not sure what though.
3/ The mould lines are generally quite fine - about what you'd expect with a Lego in fact. The plastic seems to be a lot like Lego too.
4/ The cables are made of very thin translucent blue rubbery plastic, a lot like the material for the Lego one below. Not sure how well they'll glue or take (and keep!) paint.
(http://i.ebayimg.com/t/LEGO-1-x-CLASSIC-VINTAGE-BLACK-FLEXIBLE-HOSE-8-5L-WITHOUT-TABS-73590a-/00/s/MTIwMFgxNjAw/$(KGrHqJ,!o4E8ViOVpLWBPP6wHN!Jw~~60_35.JPG)
5/ The joints are ball-and-socket where the arms connect to the torso, peg joints where the legs connect to the hips, and are hinge joints (with a separate pin) for all the other joints. This looks like it will be quite posable, but a pain to assemble.
6/ The mouldlines that exist are often composite, and the thin parts are very brittle.
7/ The level of detail and styling is quite different from the equivalent metal figures. Small details are very fine, and the lines are all quite "straight", which misses that quirky and slightly organic Malifaux style of the metal models.
Overall, the model feels much more like a toy (a Lego toy in fact), and also looks quite different to everything else in the range. I feel that too much was made of flexible posing (given that Lazarus is a unique character anyway), and that not enough advantage was taken of the new medium to create a dynamic model. Better examples of how complex dynamic models can be made in a small number of pieces in plastic can be seen in the GW starter boxes for WHFB and WH40k IMO.
So will I be buying any more plastics from Wyrd?
- I doubt it.
Why not?
- Lots of extra assembly and prep work required instead of less. Different style of sculpt. Feels like character is missing from the model.
But it's easy to convert if I'm not happy with it?
- Not really. It's a hard and unforgiving plastic to work with, and the model is a shower of tiny parts.
But at least it will stay together if I drop it!
- Hmm, not necessarily. The recommended superglue doesn't bond to the plastic any better than metal, and most plastic glue doesn't "melt" the parts together (although plastic solvents like JB Weld might). And with that many parts - none of which lock together BTW - if you drop it, it could well shatter unless it's pinned/solvent welded.
What about gaps and gap-filling?
- I think the kit is well-engineered enough to not need any gap-filling. Organic models might be different though.
So, I think that plastics can be just as good as metal or resin for models (but definitely not better as such), although the model in question needs to take proper advantage of the material it's made of IMO. I personally prefer metals generally, and don't mind some good plastics and resins.
Anyway, that's my opinion: these are not the robots I'm looking for!
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Nice thorough review. Thanks. I think I will not be buying the Malifaux plastics. And I quite like plastics in general.
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@Doomsdave:
No worries!
I'll try and get some pix up of the kit later tonight if I can, so you can see what the kit looks like for yourselves. I think that's important in the context of my review/experience, and of this thread in general.
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I had not heard that about Lazarus, the part about the screw is definitely odd. I had to hunt down a thread in Wyrd about it, the unboxing, then post-construction video that I ran across was actually a bit complimentary, so I guess it's all a matter of taste. http://www.wyrd-games.net/showthread.php?34553-Unboxing-Lazarus&highlight=Lazarus
I'm looking at the Dark Debts box, as well as the Hanging Trees, Beckoners, Mr Tannen, Mr Graves, Miss Terious, and Santana, and they're some of the cleanest sculpts I've seen in plastic. I quite like the material myself, the combination styrene-abs (LEGO plastic) makes for some pretty tough stuff, which I like.
I'm looking forward to seeing your pictures!
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I think in ten years people will have gotten over looking at the medium and will instead consider the quality of the product.
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I think in ten years people will have gotten over looking at the medium and will instead consider the quality of the product.
Wiser words have never been spoken
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Sorry, double post
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Sorry, double post
It was so powerful a statement it couldn't be contained in just one post!
I agree completely. I think it's nostalgia holding so many people to metal, pure and simple.
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Right, sorry for the long wait (found the camera cable at last... Not my camera. Sigh. ::)).
Anyway, here are the pictures to accompany my post above:
The lower layer of the package that comes in the box. All the parts are on sprues, and all the sprues are clipped into each tray. Getting the parts out with breaking them off the sprue requires some care!
(http://i407.photobucket.com/albums/pp154/MajorGilbear/Malifaux/Packaging1.jpg)
This is the upper layer of parts. Note the screw that hold the torso parts together, and also the blue plastic cables on their sprue - these are the bendy ones. Also note the row of pegs that pin the leg joints.
(http://i407.photobucket.com/albums/pp154/MajorGilbear/Malifaux/Packaging2.jpg)
These are the instructions. One sided. No mention on them of the screw, or of the row of pegs that pin the joints. Also, the hip piece is different in the instructions than on the sprue.
(http://i407.photobucket.com/albums/pp154/MajorGilbear/Malifaux/Instructions.jpg)
These are not moulded with simple two-part moulds. As you can see from the mould lines on this ball-joint, they are quite complex and indicate that the mould has several parts.
(http://i407.photobucket.com/albums/pp154/MajorGilbear/Malifaux/Part.jpg)
These are what the old robots of the same base size look like. Very different, and far less assembly. Although the mould lines are much heaver, there are also fewer overall. The bases are 40mm diameter, and the squares on the cutting mat are 10mm across.
(http://i407.photobucket.com/albums/pp154/MajorGilbear/Malifaux/OtherRobots.jpg)
Here's a comparison of the chest pieces of all three robots. You can see the difference in the level and scale of detail. The metal detail is chunkier and slightly deeper. The plastic details are slightly finer and slightly softer too.
(http://i407.photobucket.com/albums/pp154/MajorGilbear/Malifaux/TorsosComparison.jpg)
I think in ten years people will have gotten over looking at the medium and will instead consider the quality of the product.
I agree completely. I think it's nostalgia holding so many people to metal, pure and simple.
I feel that comments like this are unfair. I do inherently prefer metal, I admit - it allows a second hand market in figures exist for one thing! However, I don't irrationally dislike plastics at all - far from it; I like them just fine if they are good.
What I do dislike is the complete lack of imagination and effort that many miniatures companies put into thinking about how the medium they are using affects the finished product. Too often, the move to plastic models means more parts, more mouldlines and more time spent preparing a model - and for what? Instead of making a shower of parts on a sprue, more effort should be made to try out poses and assemblies that cannot be reliably or easily done in metal. Likewise, if a model is made up of several parts, care should be taken to put the mould lines in places where they will be covered over with another part or otherwise hidden from view. GW (love 'em or hate 'em) have demonstrated just how incredible simple plastic models can be by producing some show-stopping character figures for their current WHFB and WH40k sets. Just look at and scroll through the parts of the models in this puff article (http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/wnt/blog.jsp?pid=3700064-gws) to see what I mean.
Models like Lazarus above are well intentioned, but poorly designed. Plastic is easy to cut and convert compared to metal (or so I keep hearing - I find no real difference myself), so why make a model in so many parts where you don't do the same with metal ones? Why not give us more models in cooler poses on the sprue for the same price instead, and we can just use a knife and our imagination to make them "ours".
The real reason that there is talk of medium when discussing plastic models at the moment is that it has taken many years to get to the level of sculpts that we're seeing nowadays in metal. The move to plastic by many of those companies seems to have failed to grasp the fundamental differences in mediums, and too often I see models that are merely translated into plastic rather than sculpted from the start with the medium in mind, and they are far too often inferior (which is a shame, and quite unnecessary).
As for ten years from now... Hmm. Anyone remember the old, old WHFB plastics (Drastik Plastik)? Yes? What are they worth now compared to their metal contemporaries? And how are they for quality compared to their metal contemporaries? Nostalgia's not everything, especially when it seems that people have such short memories! lol
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Thank you for the thoughtful post and the detailed pictures, Major.
I'm not a metal snob myself, it's the quality of the sculpt that matters, not the substance that it is cast in (provided that the substance is sturdy and long-wearing and appropriate for the figure).
That being said, I was rather underwhelmed with the Santana Ortega and Miss Terious plastic figures that I acquired recently (at a considerable cost after-market). They are both tiny and lacking in detail in comparison to the previous generation of Malifaux metal figures.
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Thanks for the informative write up. I doubt I'll be buying any wyrd plastic minis due to the pricing they've put on them. Perhaps if something comes out for my Rasputina crew, I might change my mind, but I can't see it for the forseeable as Wyrd seem more interested in pumping more expansions & factions now.
Wish they'd gone for a rules revision/tidy up this year over the ten thunders stuff (nice as it is). Game is getting a bit busy now.
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Wiser words have never been spoken
I doubt it. But that's me.
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That plastic figure looks rubbish for the price they've set. Bye, Malifaux.
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Definitely a matter of opinion.
Some people that have done other reviews:
http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2012/09/malifaux-new-plastics-unboxed.html
http://independent-painters.blogspot.com/2012/09/my-take-on-malifaux-plastics.html'
http://davetaylorminiatures.blogspot.com/2012/09/malifaux-in-plastic.html
Personally, having put together about half of the Dark Debts box, Mr Tannen, Mr Graves, The Beckoners, and the Hanging Tree box, I have to say, I love the plastics. The detail is crisp when it needs to be crisp, they go together beautifully, and they fit well with the metals.
For their first series of plastics it's pretty sweet.
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That plastic figure looks rubbish for the price they've set. Bye, Malifaux.
Sums it up for me. Selling all of the Guild stuff off and just keeping my Arcanists now as its just not getting used that much any more. Even the arcanists stuff isn't all built TBH.
Game swelled in popularity at the club, hit a peak, and now seems to be settling back down to a game or two each week over the "most of the tables" scenario a year ago.
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Yea we hit a peek and now there's really only one guy interested in the game. We gave it up at the exact moment they went to plastic. The good news is that Tea Wars by Black Pyramid is releasing their formula for unit creation and we'll be able to use our figures in that game. I really, now, think that it's the best thing a game company can do to support the community: Release the Formula! That way everyone can use figs they have and buy the figs they like frim the game mfg. everyone wins!
RF