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Miniatures Adventure => Medieval Adventures => Topic started by: Stuart on August 24, 2012, 01:18:52 PM

Title: Richard III Appeal 24-25 Aug
Post by: Stuart on August 24, 2012, 01:18:52 PM
Good Afternoon all

You may have heard Richard III in the news today as work gets underway in a Leicester car park to try and find his possible final resting place. However, there's a bit more to the story and YOU, yes you, can play a part in it. Here's an appeal from the Richard III society;

Dear Friends and Ricardians

The search for Richard III's remains in Leicester is going ahead and Channel 4 are filming the dig.  However, they've said that 'unless something of significance is found', they don't believe there is a television audience interested in a full-length documentary about Richard.  If nothing much is found at the dig, all the footage will be binned.

There has never been a well-informed documentary setting out the full story of the historical Richard III, and this was a chance to tell viewers about the real Richard's life.  Channel 4's assessment is quite wrong, and your help is needed to prove it.  Help us to get Channel 4 to change their mind by leaving a message on their Online Form.  It takes less than 2 minutes.  This messaging campaign should take place on Friday 24 and Saturday 25 August.  If enough of us leave messages, it will show that an audience exists for a programme about Richard III.  This could help to get them to commission the documentary - no matter what is found at the dig!

It's very important to send your message on the 24th or the 25th so that a concentrated campaign gets their attention.  Friends overseas should join in, too - C4 sell their programmes abroad which means you will get to see it too!

This is the kind of message you might like to leave:

“I can’t wait to see your TV programme on Richard III and the search for his remains . It’s really exciting!  It doesn’t matter what is found at the dig, I just want to see a good documentary about this enigmatic  character.  Well done Channel 4 on covering this!  Let me know when I can tune in to discover all about the real, historical Richard III.”

This is the link to the Channel 4 feedback form www.channel4.com/4viewers/contact-us

N.B. Channel 4 will ask for your email address and postcode.  This is what they say: "We would like to publish your name and location (if available) with your comments.  However, please be assured that no other personal details would be published with your comments."   If you're overseas and need a UK postcode, you could choose from one of the following: DL3 OLE, DL3 8SD, NE3 4BH, NE16 4PE, NE21 5TF, KY11 9LP, EH3 6SF, RG9 2EE, TW1 9PD, DT11 8LX, EH45 8HB, WD6 2JP, DT11 8PU.

Thank you for your help on behalf of the R3 dig team in Leicester.

Phil Stone
Chairman

24 August 2012

Title: Re: Richard III Appeal 24-25 Aug
Post by: Atheling on August 24, 2012, 04:04:00 PM
Phil,

Well said. I'll get to it ASAP.

Darrell.
Title: Re: Richard III Appeal 24-25 Aug
Post by: Plynkes on August 24, 2012, 05:33:32 PM
Isn't it a little dishonest to ask people who aren't from the UK to pretend that they are, considering UK viewing figures are what Channel 4 are concerned about?

I thought these Ricardians were all about "truth?" I guess not. Their request that people lie to Channel 4 like this seriously damages their credibility and integrity in my eyes. If they can advocate lying about this, then why not about other things? I don't see the point in substituting Tudor propaganda for Ricardian propaganda, and I have no conviction now that this wouldn't be the case.

So I'll pass.
Title: Re: Richard III Appeal 24-25 Aug
Post by: Patrice on August 24, 2012, 06:08:28 PM
Isn't it a little dishonest to ask people who aren't from the UK to pretend that they are, considering UK viewing figures are what Channel 4 are concerned about?
Er. Is the call about broadcasting a documentary, or about making it?

If it's about making a documentary, Channel 4 will sell it abroad later, and we'll be able to watch it on Arte or some other channel.

I don't see the point in substituting Tudor propaganda for Ricardian propaganda
Ooooh. UK politics are still much more complicated than I thought... :o
How many Tudorian MPs vs Ricardian MPs were elected in the last election? ;)
Title: Re: Richard III Appeal 24-25 Aug
Post by: Plynkes on August 24, 2012, 06:24:09 PM
If you need a UK postcode to leave a comment, then clearly what they are after is the opinions of UK viewers. Spamming them with the opinions of "fake" UK viewers from around the world is clearly dishonest.


How many Tudorian MPs vs Ricardian MPs were elected in the last election? ;)

At the last election I voted for the Angevins, but the Jacobite candidate won in my constituency.  :-[
Title: Re: Richard III Appeal 24-25 Aug
Post by: Stuart on August 24, 2012, 09:07:40 PM
well that lasted long.......

Thank you for contacting Channel 4 Viewer Enquiries.

Unfortunately, we do not have any plans to make a documentary based on a search for Richard III's remains; however, please be assured that your comments have been passed on to our Commissioning Department so that they are aware of the interest this would receive.

Thank you again for taking the time to contact us here at Channel 4 and for your interest in our programming.

Sorry about that chaps, I got a bit hasty
Title: Re: Richard III Appeal 24-25 Aug
Post by: Franz_Josef on August 24, 2012, 11:08:06 PM
What a shame.  I certainly would have watched - had it later shown up on BBC America or PBS her in the States.  I like my roses white, and have always thought Richard got a very raw deal from Shakespeare (and Sir Thomas).  Henry VII even looks like  a weasel!
Title: Re: Richard III Appeal 24-25 Aug
Post by: fastolfrus on August 24, 2012, 11:17:51 PM
At the last election I voted for the Angevins, but the Jacobite candidate won in my constituency.  :-[
I would have voted Leveller, but they took my candidate out and shot him, and the Diggers are just too radical.
Title: Re: Richard III Appeal 24-25 Aug
Post by: Patrice on August 24, 2012, 11:27:14 PM
I would have voted Leveller, but they took my candidate out and shot him, and the Diggers are just too radical.
Er. What are they Digging for? ??? OK, I'm just a foreigner, no answer needed, I'll Wiki this to understand why it's difficult to Level what others have been Digging for  ::) ??? lol

At the last election I voted for the Angevins, but the Jacobite candidate won in my constituency.  :-[
What's wrong with the Jacobites? They were on the French side :D
I know some old French texts where king James is officially mentioned as the "King of England in St-Germain" (near Paris... in exile)  :D

Sorry about that chaps, I got a bit hasty
No need to apologize. Keep on trying, and some day they'll do it.

One day I'll tell you how we prevented a rubbish dump to be installed near a medieval battlefield, here in Brittany about twelve years ago. We pestered the town council with messages and demonstrations, and myself I took part in a demo where I walked in medieval costume with some rubbish (tins, plastic bottles, etc) chained to my ankle, etc, and after some time all this helped the local citizens to protest, and the Mayor lost his seat in the town election, and the rubbish dump was never built and the battlefield is still there. It works!
Title: Re: Richard III Appeal 24-25 Aug
Post by: Plynkes on August 24, 2012, 11:39:34 PM
What's wrong with the Jacobites? They were on the French side :D

What's wrong with the Angevins? They were French.   :)
Title: Re: Richard III Appeal 24-25 Aug
Post by: Patrice on August 25, 2012, 12:00:37 AM
What's wrong with the Jacobites? They were on the French side :D
What's wrong with the Angevins? They were French.   :)
GOOD ONE! Congratulations lol ...It took me a few minutes to understand where was the problem :D
OK I surrender. What's wrong with all them?

Well, the Angevins were French ...when the Bretons were still not French, so they were foreigners for me!

BUT the Jacobites were on the French side ...when the Bretons had become French, so... well.

OOops I'll get an headache soon, that's an historical role-playing for me, I've been re-enacting these two periods (medieval, and c.1700) and that's two different nationalities while being the same.

OOoops again, out of topic, sorry.
Title: Re: Richard III Appeal 24-25 Aug
Post by: janner on August 26, 2012, 05:19:07 PM
What's wrong with the Angevins? They were French.   :)

Not really, well no more than they were English or from Aquitaine  ;)
Title: Re: Richard III Appeal 24-25 Aug
Post by: Arlequín on August 27, 2012, 04:31:12 PM
well that lasted long.......

Thank you for contacting Channel 4 Viewer Enquiries.

Unfortunately, we do not have any plans to make a documentary based on a search for Richard III's remains; however, please be assured that your comments have been passed on to our Commissioning Department so that they are aware of the interest this would receive.

Thank you again for taking the time to contact us here at Channel 4 and for your interest in our programming.

Sorry about that chaps, I got a bit hasty

I got the same answer... but it does no harm to let them know that there are people interested in this sort of stuff.  ;)
Title: Re: Richard III Appeal 24-25 Aug
Post by: Atheling on August 29, 2012, 12:28:55 PM
Not really, well no more than they were English or from Aquitaine  ;)

 8) 8) :) :D :D

True.

Darrell.

Title: Re: Richard III Appeal 24-25 Aug
Post by: Paul on September 01, 2012, 06:38:45 PM
Thing is...if they actually find him and dig him up..won´t he get the hump?
Title: Re: Richard III Appeal 24-25 Aug
Post by: Patrice on September 01, 2012, 07:38:08 PM
527 years in a car park, without buying a ticket? If they take him out, it will cost him a lot of money!
Title: Re: Richard III Appeal 24-25 Aug
Post by: Welf VIII. on September 05, 2012, 01:44:10 PM
The search goes on and confirms that they have located the Grey Friars Church.
http://www2.le.ac.uk/news/blog/2012/september/search-for-richard-iii-confirms-they-have-located-the-long-lost-church-of-the-grey-friars (http://www2.le.ac.uk/news/blog/2012/september/search-for-richard-iii-confirms-they-have-located-the-long-lost-church-of-the-grey-friars)

Still think there is only a slight chance they might fight good king Dickon. Should they find him, I would strongly suggest a catholic funeral in York.
Title: Re: Richard III Appeal 24-25 Aug
Post by: Atheling on September 05, 2012, 10:00:52 PM
527 years in a car park, without buying a ticket? If they take him out, it will cost him a lot of money!

Good job it wasn't an NHS hospital carpark then.....  lol  lol

But I digress..... back OT next time  :)

Darrell.
Title: Re: Richard III Appeal 24-25 Aug
Post by: Arlequín on September 06, 2012, 07:08:28 AM
Should they find him, I would strongly suggest a catholic funeral in York.

It would be ironic if he was interred in the Henry VII chapel at Westminster Abbey.  ;)
Title: Re: Richard III Appeal 24-25 Aug
Post by: Welf VIII. on September 12, 2012, 12:21:39 PM
They might have found him:

http://www2.le.ac.uk/news/blog/2012/september/richard-iii-press-conference-2013-live-updates-from-11.00am
Title: Re: Richard III Appeal 24-25 Aug
Post by: Atheling on September 12, 2012, 12:39:47 PM
They might have found him:

http://www2.le.ac.uk/news/blog/2012/september/richard-iii-press-conference-2013-live-updates-from-11.00am

Holy crap!!

Not enough convincing evidence as of yet but it is promising. I'd be interested in the DNA specifically. The true King of England, if you like, who lives in Australia now.

"A York! A York!"

Darrell.
Title: Re: Richard III Appeal 24-25 Aug
Post by: Welf VIII. on September 12, 2012, 12:55:08 PM
I think that one died a few months ago. But it might interest you, that some families from the lower nobility of Northern Germany can trace their ancestors back to the three sisters of Tostig.

BTW: Is it just me or are the majority of those interested in WotR actually supporting the York?

PS: Just read Thomas Penn's "Winter King" about the reign of Henry VII. What ever Richard actually did, he could not have been as bad as Henry Stalin.
Title: Re: Richard III Appeal 24-25 Aug
Post by: janner on September 12, 2012, 01:05:18 PM

BTW: Is it just me or are the majority of those interested in WotR actually supporting the York?


Being a westcountry man, I'm firmly with the House of Lancaster ;)
Title: Re: Richard III Appeal 24-25 Aug
Post by: Arlequín on September 12, 2012, 01:24:19 PM
BTW: Is it just me or are the majority of those interested in WotR actually supporting the York?

PS: Just read Thomas Penn's "Winter King" about the reign of Henry VII. What ever Richard actually did, he could not have been as bad as Henry Stalin.

It's the 'under-dog' factor... like many Napoleonic players going for French Armies and many ACW players for the Confederates. I'll admit to being Lancastrian in my sympathies, but a Ricardian in terms of the end of the wars... 

The Tudors were pretty much forced to consolidate their dynasty by rubbishing Richard's claim and by absorbing both the Lancastrian and Yorkist factions into theirs... hence the Red/White Tudor Rose and the marriage to Anne Plantagenet. A degree of ruthless suppression was also required, due to the weakness of the Tudor claim to the throne, Henry was perhaps the lowest on the list of succession.

Richard III was a man of his time, for all that entails, although his actions during his lifetime hint at a sense of honour and a conscience, along with the appreciation that sometimes ruthlessness was necessary. He appears to have been loved in the North, particularly in York, which given that the Yorkist's main power base was originally in the Welsh Marches and the North was largely Lancastrian in its sympathies, was no mean feat!

The mind boggles at the possibilities of Richard III defeating Henry Tudor though... no Reformation, closer ties with Spain and the Empire, against France... English Wars of Religion and continual wars with a Protestant Scotland. For a small island, the effect on the history of Western Europe was potentially quite significant!
Title: Re: Richard III Appeal 24-25 Aug
Post by: dm on September 12, 2012, 01:39:06 PM
the evidence from the remains is looking good so far and so is the location of the burial but will wait to see what comes of it after all the evaluations with fingers crossed. :)

Ok Richard is still portrayed as a monster and a dictator in some historical accounts but if you look at him in the framework of the time i dont think he was much or any worse than any other monarch of the period.
Title: Re: Richard III Appeal 24-25 Aug
Post by: Atheling on September 12, 2012, 01:48:05 PM
the evidence from the remains is looking good so far and so is the location of the burial but will wait to see what comes of it after all the evaluations with fingers crossed. :)

Ok Richard is still portrayed as a monster and a dictator in some historical accounts but if you look at him in the framework of the time i dont think he was much or any worse than any other monarch of the period.

It is certain that with the Woodville's at the helm of government his life would have been very short had he not taken the action he did re: capturing the heir to be Edward and his brother and doing away with them.

Very sad, but as DM says very true of Late Medieval England at the time.

Darrell.
Title: Re: Richard III Appeal 24-25 Aug
Post by: Welf VIII. on September 12, 2012, 01:49:27 PM
@Arlequin: so you always make sure, you end up on the losing side?

Henry VII married Elisabeth not Anne.

I think both Richards (Gloucester and his father York) seem to have been very good administrators. And the reforms of Richards parliament are simply amazing.

He might have been ruthless at times, but who wasn't at that time? As for the princes, we don't know for sure and what if they had shown signs of behaving like Joffrey Baratheon?

But we don't know, what would have happened afterwards, may be one of his successor would have still joined the protestant side, perhaps with bit less opportunistic motivation creating something real and not this Anglican Church chimera.
First of all his marriage with Joana of Portugal would have taken place and perhaps he would have invaded France (which is always a good thing).

PS: I do think the marriage between Edward IV and Elisabeth Woodville was not lragal as Edward already had a marriage contract with Lady Elenor (born Talbot, widowed Butler), the daughter of the Earl of Shrewsbury. The way the Tudor propaganda tried to change her name into one elisabeth Lucy or Wayte gives a hint, that there was something substantial behind it.
Title: Re: Richard III Appeal 24-25 Aug
Post by: Phil Robinson on September 12, 2012, 01:57:49 PM
A Porsche, A Porsche! my kingdom for a Porsche! Well someone had to say it ::)
Title: Re: Richard III Appeal 24-25 Aug
Post by: Stuart on September 12, 2012, 02:14:28 PM
Interesting news eh and even if it's not Richard it's definitely worthy of a documentary.

As an offshoot question;

I know that when Henry Tudor came to light as the leading opponent of Richard III he described himself by his peerage title ‘Richmond’, and not as ‘Henry Tudor’. He was always called Richmond in subsequent sixteenth-century accounts of his life before becoming king, including Shakespeare's Richard III. ‘Tydder’ was used by Richard, and subsequently Perkin Warbeck, to draw attention to his allegedly low social origins which no doubt explains why Henry and his successors avoided using the word.

But what would they (the house of Tudor) have referred to themselves as? I know that previously they would have been proud Lancastrians or Yorkists but would people under Richard have considered that they were under a Yorkist rule or a Plantagenet dynasty or is that more something that has taken hold in more recent times?

Still very good news and a welcome distratction in my now extended 'working' lunch break (spreadsheet minimised ready to be clicked into action )
Title: Re: Richard III Appeal 24-25 Aug
Post by: dm on September 12, 2012, 02:58:51 PM
If it is Richard and it could well be taking into consideration the combination of the location of the body within the church, the wounds and indication of a spinal condition..... they may have found their man. DNA will be the way forward if the bones are in as good a condition as they are reputed to be and any modern blood lineage can be traced.

The trauma wounds spoken about in the press release on the skeletal remains also suggest the individual was not wearing full armour when they occurred but as at Towton individuals were perhaps dispatched after fighting took place or whilst trying to evade capture and or soon after capture and armour would have been removed/stripped by the winning side prior to execution.

If it proves to be Richard it may paint a whole new picture of his death and a barbed arrow head still lodged in the back could help explain his death but it could also show contempt for his remains after death which is reported in some of the history of the event.

The recent survey of the surrounding area now shows that the traditional site for the battle of Bosworth Field was not in the location previously thought but a few miles down the road and that the largest amount of Late Medieval artillery ever detected on any battle site in the UK was also located during the survey.
Title: Re: Richard III Appeal 24-25 Aug
Post by: Paul on September 12, 2012, 03:06:35 PM
BTW: Is it just me or are the majority of those interested in WotR actually supporting the York?

Lancaster all the way!!!!!

They might have found him:

http://www2.le.ac.uk/news/blog/2012/september/richard-iii-press-conference-2013-live-updates-from-11.00am
Nice of them to give a nice pic of Richards flag as well. Ok, it´s only one half but photoshop will deal with that  :D
Title: Re: Richard III Appeal 24-25 Aug
Post by: Atheling on September 12, 2012, 03:40:20 PM
Lancaster all the way!!!!!
Nice of them to give a nice pic of Richards flag as well. Ok, it´s only one half but photoshop will deal with that  :D

Cough....

Might be  ;) :)

Darrell.
Title: Re: Richard III Appeal 24-25 Aug
Post by: dm on September 12, 2012, 04:03:03 PM
House of Lancaster....pah!!!! a pox be upon them all :-[............ ;)
Title: Re: Richard III Appeal 24-25 Aug
Post by: Arlequín on September 12, 2012, 04:26:49 PM
@Arlequin: so you always make sure, you end up on the losing side?

I largely end up on the losing side with most things I play...  lol

Henry VII married Elisabeth not Anne.

Yep, I wasn't paying attention there...


He might have been ruthless at times, but who wasn't at that time? As for the princes, we don't know for sure and what if they had shown signs of behaving like Joffrey Baratheon?

Sure, look at his contemporaries; Louis XI, the various Popes, Cardinals and of course the Borgias, Ferrante of Naples, Ferdinand and Isabella... none of them were above 'removing' opponents.

But we don't know, what would have happened afterwards, may be one of his successor would have still joined the protestant side, perhaps with bit less opportunistic motivation creating something real and not this Anglican Church chimera.
First of all his marriage with Joana of Portugal would have taken place and perhaps he would have invaded France (which is always a good thing).

I'm not saying that England wouldn't have become protestant, just not in the way that it did; the CofE wasn't exactly radically protestant, more catholicism-lite. Many things would have been different though, although I guess we'd arrive at pretty much the same present day though. 

PS: I do think the marriage between Edward IV and Elisabeth Woodville was not lragal as Edward already had a marriage contract with Lady Elenor (born Talbot, widowed Butler), the daughter of the Earl of Shrewsbury. The way the Tudor propaganda tried to change her name into one elisabeth Lucy or Wayte gives a hint, that there was something substantial behind it.

The Tudors weren't overly involved in the Edward IV 'betrothal' scandal, it was in their interests to promote the Queen (Elizabeth) as being legitimate. The whole thing apparently began with his mother, Cecily Neville, who intimated that Edward wasn't the son of the Duke of York and stemmed from a liaison with a household archer and that George and Richard were the only two legitimate sons of the Duke. 

This was later changed to nullify Edward's own children, hence denying them the throne as 'double bastards' if you like. It's pretty complicated and there seems to have been a seperate attempt by Richard to silence the scandal that his mother had started, while still furthering his claim to the throne; Edward was legitimate, his children were not. It was a pretty clumsy effort all round.

It's fascinating stuff though!

 :) 
Title: Re: Richard III Appeal 24-25 Aug
Post by: Atheling on September 12, 2012, 04:54:37 PM
The Tudors weren't overly involved in the Edward IV 'betrothal' scandal, it was in their interests to promote the Queen (Elizabeth) as being legitimate. The whole thing apparently began with his mother, Cecily Neville, who intimated that Edward wasn't the son of the Duke of York and stemmed from a liaison with a household archer and that George and Richard were the only two legitimate sons of the Duke. 

This was later changed to nullify Edward's own children, hence denying them the throne as 'double bastards' if you like. It's pretty complicated and there seems to have been a seperate attempt by Richard to silence the scandal that his mother had started, while still furthering his claim to the throne; Edward was legitimate, his children were not. It was a pretty clumsy effort all round.

It's fascinating stuff though!

Mike Jones, a key Medieval academic (I based the background of the Battle of Verneuil game at Salute on his theories) came up with some interesting evidence recently:

http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GEN-MEDIEVAL/2004-01/1074328485

http://www.richardiiiworcs.co.uk/di46/studyday.html

Darrell.
Title: Re: Richard III Appeal 24-25 Aug
Post by: Patrice on September 12, 2012, 08:11:01 PM
perhaps he would have invaded France (which is always a good thing.
Invading France would have been almost impossible after the fall of Burgundy, but thanks to this thread I just found that Richard III was a friend of Brittany which he could have supported when things went really bad in 1487-88 if he were still king.

article (in French, a short explanation in English):
http://www.persee.fr/web/revues/home/prescript/article/abpo_0399-0826_1995_num_102_4_3838
Title: Re: Richard III Appeal 24-25 Aug
Post by: Atheling on September 12, 2012, 08:37:27 PM
Invading France would have been almost impossible after the fall of Burgundy, but thanks to this thread I just found that Richard III was a friend of Brittany which he could have supported when things went really bad in 1487-88 if he were still king.

article (in French, a short explanation in English):
http://www.persee.fr/web/revues/home/prescript/article/abpo_0399-0826_1995_num_102_4_3838

It's a damn good job the British, Canadians, Americans, Polish and Free French etc did on June 6th 1944  :D  lol.

Darrell.
Title: Re: Richard III Appeal 24-25 Aug
Post by: Arlequín on September 12, 2012, 11:23:53 PM
Invading France would have been almost impossible after the fall of Burgundy, but thanks to this thread I just found that Richard III was a friend of Brittany which he could have supported when things went really bad in 1487-88 if he were still king.

article (in French, a short explanation in English):
http://www.persee.fr/web/revues/home/prescript/article/abpo_0399-0826_1995_num_102_4_3838

Burgundy fell?  :?  ;)

I doubt an invasion of France, but a contingent in support of Philip the Handsome, would surely have happened. Richard's sister, Margaret was active in seeking support for her step-daughter and subsequently her step-grandson and an alliance with Maximilian of Austria would seem likely too. While the major fighting in Flanders, Picardy, Hainault and Artois had died down, it was to be a battleground until 1493. I can't see Richard not getting involved
Title: Re: Richard III Appeal 24-25 Aug
Post by: Atheling on September 13, 2012, 06:25:42 AM
Burgundy fell?  :?  ;)

Or was she pushed?

Yeah, but by Duke Charles (the Bold)!!  lol lol

Quote
I doubt an invasion of France, but a contingent in support of Philip the Handsome, would surely have happened. Richard's sister, Margaret was active in seeking support for her step-daughter and subsequently her step-grandson and an alliance with Maximilian of Austria would seem likely too. While the major fighting in Flanders, Picardy, Hainault and Artois had died down, it was to be a battleground until 1493. I can't see Richard not getting involved

This is a very good point. The offering of military support to other 'nations' by the English Crown wasn't exclusive to Burgundy. Expeditions were launched on land and sea with some regularity and the upper echelons of society weren't averse to exploiting any chance to forward their policies be they expansionist, political or simply to create a diversion. Richard III was no fool and it would go against the grain of 'Yorkist' policy (As Richard of Gloucester, Richard had vehemently opposed his brother Edward's withdrawl from France in 1475) to think that he would not try to exploit the in-fighting in Northern France.

As amature historians (I certainly fall into this bracket!) and for the sake of our painting, modelling and wargaming which we rightly love, tend to come up with political and military speculation, often based on sound facts....... well, I'll let the Bard explain the rest, "in our imaginary forces work".  I leave you with more words of warning....

"For 'tis your thoughts that now must deck our kings,
Carry them here and there; jumping o'er times, 30
Turning the accomplishment of many years
Into an hour-glass: for the which supply,
Admit me Chorus to this history;
Who prologue-like your humble patience pray,
Gently to hear, kindly to judge, our play."


And from Prof David Grummet:

"This whole exercise is, of course, one of imagination. By trying to read motives or feelings into these texts we are stretching the very limits of the historian’s craft."

It's fine to speculate, often as wargamers we rely on speculation. But I suppose we must admit to ourselves that at the end of the day, it is just that, speculation.

Just my two pennies worth.

Darrell.
Title: Re: Richard III Appeal 24-25 Aug
Post by: janner on September 13, 2012, 06:53:35 AM
I'm comfortable with one level of speculation in academic pieces, after that it's a house of cards  ;)

But, hey, here we're playing with small metal and plastic chappies, so anything goes  :D
Title: Re: Richard III Appeal 24-25 Aug
Post by: Atheling on September 13, 2012, 07:10:47 AM
I'm comfortable with one level of speculation in academic pieces, after that it's a house of cards  ;)

But, hey, here we're playing with small metal and plastic chappies, so anything goes  :D

Quote from: Atheling/Darrell

It's fine to speculate, often as wargamers we rely on speculation.[/quote

 ;) :)

Darrell.
Title: Re: Richard III Appeal 24-25 Aug
Post by: Arlequín on September 13, 2012, 08:58:25 AM
Speculation is the fun part... although with Medieval History, there's usually more speculation than history.  ::)
Title: Re: Richard III Appeal 24-25 Aug
Post by: Atheling on September 13, 2012, 09:42:07 AM
Speculation is the fun part... although with Medieval History, there's usually more speculation than history.  ::)

I repeat for those who may not have understood what i was getting at:

Quote from: Atheling[i
"For 'tis your thoughts that now must deck our kings,
Carry them here and there; jumping o'er times, 30
Turning the accomplishment of many years
Into an hour-glass: for the which supply,
Admit me Chorus to this history;
Who prologue-like your humble patience pray,
Gently to hear, kindly to judge, our play."[/i]

Quote from: Atheling
"in our imaginary forces work".

Quote from: Atheling
It's fine to speculate, often as wargamers we rely on speculation. But I suppose we must admit to ourselves that at the end of the day, it is just that, speculation.

Getting the idea?  :)  ::)

Darrell.
Title: Re: Richard III Appeal 24-25 Aug
Post by: Gibby on September 13, 2012, 02:08:43 PM
So, Richard eh? Pretty exciting stuff!  ::)
Title: Re: Richard III Appeal 24-25 Aug SUCCESS!
Post by: Stuart on September 13, 2012, 05:20:28 PM
WOOHOO!  ;D

Dear Viewer,
 
As you previously contacted us regarding a programme on Richard III, we thought you might be interested to hear of the decision by Channel 4 to commission a programme due to the high volume of requests received.
 
For more information on the programme, please follow the link below:
 
http://www.channel4.com/info/press/news/channel-4-to-broadcast-hunt-for-richard-iii
 
Kind regards
 
Sandra Carter
Channel 4 Viewer Enquiries
Title: Re: Richard III Appeal 24-25 Aug SUCCESS!
Post by: Atheling on September 13, 2012, 05:41:57 PM

Dear Viewer,
 
As you previously contacted us regarding a programme on Richard III, we thought you might be interested to hear of the decision by Channel 4 to commission a programme due to the high volume of requests received.
 
For more information on the programme, please follow the link below:
 
http://www.channel4.com/info/press/news/channel-4-to-broadcast-hunt-for-richard-iii
 
Kind regards
 
Sandra Carter
Channel 4 Viewer Enquiries

Quote from: Stuart
WOOHOO!  ;D

....and a jolly good YAAAAAAAAAAAHOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!! to go with it too  :D.

Superb news, it's about time the applecart was upset regarding the modern concept of Richard III is concerned.

A York! A York!

Darrell.
Title: Re: Richard III Appeal 24-25 Aug
Post by: Patrice on September 13, 2012, 06:19:08 PM
I told you:
...when you claim and protest long enough, you always get something!
(yes I know, it's a very French practice).

But in this case, I suppose the true reason is that the archeologists have (probably) found him, so, hey, it raises public interest for a TV programme.
Title: Re: Richard III Appeal 24-25 Aug
Post by: Stuart on September 13, 2012, 08:50:13 PM

...when you claim and protest long enough, you always get something!

My cats are a daily living testament to this......and probably my wife ::).

I'll be keeping my eyes peeled for more mention of timings and so on.
Title: Re: Richard III Appeal 24-25 Aug
Post by: Hammers on February 04, 2013, 02:23:53 PM
So I guess it *Is* confirmed t'was King Ricgard's skull which they have found...?
Title: Re: Richard III Appeal 24-25 Aug
Post by: Malamute on February 04, 2013, 02:26:58 PM
So I guess it *Is* confirmed t'was King Ricgard's skull which they have found...?

I think we find out tonight, there's a programme on Channel 4 that supposedly will reveal the truth...
Title: Re: Richard III Appeal 24-25 Aug
Post by: Gibby on February 04, 2013, 02:30:06 PM
I think we find out tonight, there's a programme on Channel 4 that supposedly will reveal the truth...

They've already revealed it to be him on BBC News
Title: Re: Richard III Appeal 24-25 Aug
Post by: Hammers on February 04, 2013, 02:32:26 PM
Pretty cool.
Title: Re: Richard III Appeal 24-25 Aug
Post by: Malamute on February 04, 2013, 02:41:23 PM
They've already revealed it to be him on BBC News

Well that spoils the surprise then tonight lol
Title: Re: Richard III Appeal 24-25 Aug
Post by: janner on February 04, 2013, 03:15:35 PM
So if that's King Richard, who've I got stashed in the attic?
Title: Re: Richard III Appeal 24-25 Aug
Post by: Mason on February 04, 2013, 03:55:08 PM
Well that spoils the surprise then tonight lol

That is what I thought.
Bastards!
Title: Re: Richard III Appeal 24-25 Aug
Post by: Red Orc on February 04, 2013, 03:58:43 PM
Yeah, big press conference this morning. The DNA tests were apparently pretty conclusive.
Title: Re: Richard III Appeal 24-25 Aug
Post by: Stuart on February 04, 2013, 05:35:12 PM
He's due to be interred in Leicester cathedral next year which I thought a bit of a wait though perhaps an indication of further testing or possible exhibition.

Ah well, I now have a reason to visit Leicester  lol - only joking!
Title: Re: Richard III Appeal 24-25 Aug
Post by: FramFramson on February 05, 2013, 12:51:53 AM
Some you might get a kick out of this (I know it had me laughing). For some indecipherable reason, my regular newspaper felt absolutely compelled to write an editorial affirming that Richard III was not quite as good as some of his supporters claim (http://anonymouse.org/cgi-bin/anon-www.cgi/http://www.theglobeandmail.com/commentary/editorials/richard-iii-was-no-hero/article8188151/).

Not only is it hoot that they are somehow treating Richard with the same gravity as a recent modern political figure, but that their position really isn't even that strong! "Well maybe he was not entirely as good as some people say, so take this all with a grain of salt."  Yet some Canadian editor had this burning need to get the word out!

Don't get me wrong, I like a serious treatment of history - the stuff's more important to me than most. But you'd think they were talking about some 70 or 80's figure like Francois Mitterrand or Ted Heath.  ;D
Title: Re: Richard III Appeal 24-25 Aug
Post by: Sterling Moose on February 05, 2013, 12:57:31 AM
Quote
So if that's King Richard, who've I got stashed in the attic?

Is it Buddy Holly?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0nK6dlbfmU
Title: Re: Richard III Appeal 24-25 Aug
Post by: Mr.J on February 05, 2013, 01:52:36 AM
Read and seen this:
'Although entitled to be buried at Westminster Abbey alongside other kings and queens of England, he [Richard III] announced his intention to be buried at York, and in 1483 set in motion plans for a new chantry chapel at York Minster. Indeed, so strongly was he linked to York that the city authorities greeted the news of his death at the Battle of Bosworth with these words:
King Richard, late mercifully reigning over us, was, through great treason, piteously slain and murdered, to the great heaviness of this city.'

Then this earlier on Facebook, thought I would share it in case it is of interest to any of you.
https://submissions.epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/38772
Title: Re: Richard III Appeal 24-25 Aug
Post by: Red Orc on February 05, 2013, 11:08:06 AM
...

Ah well, I now have a reason to visit Leicester  lol - only joking!

Well, obviously, one hardly needs a reason to visit the Flower of the East Midlands, one has to find damn good reasons to stay away.
Title: Re: Richard III Appeal 24-25 Aug
Post by: Patrice on February 05, 2013, 11:45:51 AM
He's due to be interred in Leicester cathedral next year which I thought a bit of a wait though perhaps an indication of further testing or possible exhibition.
No Olympic Games in 2013, no Royal Wedding in 2013, they must find something else for tourism.
Re-funerals of old kings could be a good idea  :D
Title: Re: Richard III Appeal 24-25 Aug
Post by: janner on February 05, 2013, 01:40:25 PM
Is it Buddy Holly?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0nK6dlbfmU

They are easy to confuse....