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Miniatures Adventure => Medieval Adventures => Topic started by: Stuart on 25 August 2012, 12:24:43 PM
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Here's a Tudor treat for you.
Discuss!
An interesting concept and there are a wealth of Yorkist rebel contenders such as this chap, Edward Stafford.
This and more ramblings at my latest blog update;
www.stuartsworkbench.blogspot.com
All the best
Stuart
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Fantastic looking stuff Stuart :-* :-* :-*.
I'm really pleased to see this army just grow and grow. I've also been very impressed with the dedication to detail in both the execution of the painting and the level of research.
Inspiring (and I'm going to need such inspiration with my Fornovo project as evidence for some of the participants in terms of heraldry! ???)
Darrell.
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I just love the way you paint your figures. So much detail... :-*
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Hi,
very inspiring and well done. I just bookmarked your block for regular visits.
Thank you for sharing.
Elmar
http://www.elladan.de/ (http://www.elladan.de/)
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Regarding your blog discussion on the increased use of arquebusiers in the army. It's interesting to note that the easier to use gun was superseding the bow even though the former was less effective over all. And it's all down to money ::) nothing changed there then lol
You're right that it wouldn't have be cosy standing in front of the combined arms, especially when there's a buch of rowdy Englishmen behind it :)
Great painting of course and I like the fact you've converted each figure 8)
cheers
James
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Great stuff Stuart.
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Great!
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Great looking figures!
Okay... Yorkist Pretenders 1515.
Top of the heap for me would be Richard de La Pole 'The White Rose'. Son of John, Earl of Suffolk, 'The Trimmer' and Elizabeth of York (daughter of the Duke of York). In 1513 he was to lead a French funded expedition, which included 12,000 Landsknechts and which were at the Port of St. Malo, awaiting ships, when the French concluded a peace treaty with England and it was called off. He fought for the French for the following 12 years and was once more to lead a further expedition in 1523, along with John Stewart, Duke of Albany, which was again cancelled. He was killed at Pavia in 1525.
His elder and equally as ill-fated brothers were; John, Earl of Lincoln (d. 1487, Stoke Field), Edmund, Earl of Suffolk (Ex. 1513) and William (d. c.1539 after spending 37 years as a prisoner in the Tower of London).
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Excellent stuff Stuart, I have been following your blog for a while now.
Really admire your dedication to the project, wish I could do the same to mine :).
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Thanks chaps
There are a fair few later potential rebels that feature in the 1513 campaign so by the army is done it would be quite easy to field two armies or indeed add to them.
De la Pole was perhaps Henry's most serious threat and an adept commander at that, he saw a fair bit of action in the service of Louis XII & Francis I both in the Italian campaigns and against the English during their 1522/3 campaign. His planned 'invasion'of 1513/14 really intrigues me and it's something I might look into doing at some point.
Rather annoyingly I've found it really difficult to try and find his standard. I know his coat of arms and could take a guess but I'd rather not. There are descriptions of it featuring a lion on a blue and red (or rather murray and blue) field so it sounds a little bit like one of Edward IV's standards which I suppose would make sense.
Any ideas?
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Truly superb painting and attention to detail :D
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Rather annoyingly I've found it really difficult to try and find his standard. I know his coat of arms and could take a guess but I'd rather not. There are descriptions of it featuring a lion on a blue and red (or rather murray and blue) field so it sounds a little bit like one of Edward IV's standards which I suppose would make sense.
Any ideas?
Nothing concrete I'm afraid. Edward IV and Richard III, both apparently changed their liveries to Red and Blue (as opposed to Murray and Blue) when they became kings, but this may be just a misinterpretation of the colours used anyway. It's possible that the same colours might be used to stress his claim.
He was known as the 'White Rose', so it is possible that he used this obvious Yorkist symbol as a badge. Richard III was known as 'The Hog', due to his boar badge. Pole's brother John, according to Fox-Davies' Heraldic Badges used; "Lyon of gold the Kewe
forched" [MS. 2nd M. 16, Coll. Arms] in 1475.
As he was largely in French service during his exile, he is likely to have just used a banner with his coat-of-arms, though no doubt his servants would probably have worn his livery, his command (depending on who you read), was variously the Black Band Lansknechts, the whole of the French Infantry, or a unit of French or mercenary infantry, who would have their own standard(s).
With that in mind, his livery for a imagi-campaign to gain his crown, can be anything you like... there were no hard and fast rules.
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Thanks again Arlequin
All thoughts appreciated on this;
Here's a rough army list I've cobbled together for a De La Pole invasion;
Troop type Point cost Allowance
C-in-C / Ln (S) @ 35AP or Pk (S) @ 25AP / 1
Sub-General / Ln (S) @ 35AP or Pk (S) @ 25AP / 1-2
Ordonnance Gendarmes / Ln (S) @ 15AP / 0-4
Ordonnance Archers / Ln (F) @ 11AP / 0-4
Armoured Gentry / Pk (S) @ 5AP / 0-4
French foot / Pk (I) @ 3AP or Sk (O) @ 3AP / 0-12
Stradiots or Border Horse / LH (O) @ 5AP / 1-4
Scots Lowland pikemen / Pk (O) @ 4AP / 6-12
Rebel English longbowmen /Bw (S) @ 7AP / 0-12
Rebel English billmen / Bd (O) @ 7AP / 0-12
Landsknecht pikemen / Pk (O) @ 4AP / 12-18
Landsknecht arquebusiers / Sk (O) @ 3AP or Sh (I) @ 4 AP /1 per 4 Pk
Field Guns / Art (O) @ 20AP / 0-2
Organ guns / Art (I) @ 5AP / 0-2
As you can see it's a largely infantry army with aspects of French, English and Scots listings. The only aspects that I am unsure about are;
1. Stradiots and Gendarmes; none came in the ships which were sent as assistance for the Flodden campaign and / or the gendarmes fought on foot (and ended up worse off for it) in which case I have represented other 'cavalry' elements as armoured gentry - perhaps with the option of having them armed with swords and poleaxes?
Also, would stradiots have been a more effective decision over the local border horse?
2. Artillery; light pieces could have been easy enough to send over but my reasoning for only a token amount of artillery is that almost all of it was captured after Flodden.
As for the Landsknechts, definitely the black band. I know that Richard led them against the English at Therouanne in 1513 and in preparation for the invasion in 1514 along with a Robert de la Marck.
Re; Liveries. There is mention of De la Pole's musicians being liveried in Blue and Grey when he relocated to Metz in 1514, i'm not sure if these are Yorkist or French derived though his heraldry does feature blue and white. Definitely some white rose devices wouldn't go amiss or 'blancherosee' as he was known in France.
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Liveries for household servants etc., are unlikely to be in different colours to troops, just probably a better quality of material. So blue and grey/white would serve for all. I can't recall for sure offhand, but his grandfather also used blue and white iirc, along with a gold lion, so there's a set of traditional themes in use within a family, something else which was common (but by no means universal).
My personal views of foreign troops employed would preclude the use of state troops in an invasion. There is the obvious 'foreign invasion' aspect, which would be a propaganda gift to his opponents to consider. Margaret of Anjou's army of 1461 was described as 'Scottish', despite being largely Northerners and Borderers, which mobilised support behind Edward IV in the South.
As I understand it, money might be advanced and permission given to recruit an army, even individual captains given leave to join the force being raised, but an actual foreign army, in this case a French one, wouldn't happen. Individual mercenaries and the numerous companies of mercenaries could be signed up, that was standard, as was the gathering of exiled Englishmen to join the force.
Henry Tudor's army was supposedly made up of 1,500 or so ex-regular French Infantry (Swiss-trained apparently... or not, I'm dubious personally) from the Pont de l'Arche base, which was being disbanded. A further 1,000 were Scots sent to fight for the French and who were supposedly returning home after their service was done. There were also supposedly 500 English exiles. The remaining 1,000 or so were ex-convicts and debtors if you believe Commines, but more likely the numerous aventuriers and other assorted mercenaries knocking around after the end of the most recent bout of war in the Low Countries.
I would expect that a force cobbled together for Suffolk, to be quite similar. Other than individual captains, there would be little involvement by the French nobility and gentry. Suffolk's force would be largely infantry, as you suggest and he would be expected to gain additional support from English gentry and nobles on landing, along with their troops. I'm not aware that the Stradiots were used outside of Italy at this date, so their inclusion may (or may not) be suspect.
Presuming Suffolk landed in the North, then I'd certainly say that he would rely heavily on Scottish/Borderer support. I would see Suffolk's force as forming a division within a largely Scottish army, with additional disaffected English gentry and their retinues padding this out. The balance between Scots, Borderers and Northern English, I couldn't even begin to guess at.
So as it stands, I'd strip out the Ordonnance troops and Stradiots, and replace them with English 'demi-lances', Border horse and mounted archers. Otherwise it looks okay to me.
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Thanks again, very informed and much appreciated though at my painting speed you'll have to wait a few years to see this lol but the seed is definitely planted!
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You're welcome, I've been following your project on the blog for a while now and it's been interesting stuff, so I'm glad to contribute my dodgy suppositions and pseudo-historical notions to it.
;)
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This is a totally awesome project and very impressed by this body of work and research. Looking forward to seeing it develop further and a bring a fantastic 'what if' or if only period to life 8)
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As for the Landsknechts, definitely the black band. I know that Richard led them against the English at Therouanne in 1513 and in preparation for the invasion in 1514 along with a Robert de la Marck.
Sorry for the threadomancy. Only fits here, though.
Afaik the "Black Band" was created in 1514 by the Duke of Saxony for the Frisian Feud, went into service of the Duke of Geldern after that feud who led it to Francis army in 1515 (Potter errs in his assumption that these were men recruited in Geldern). Whatever de la Pole and de la Marck commanded in 1514 would be a different contingent, perhaps with a core of Landsknechts regiment (originally on loan from Maximilian) that fought at Ravenna and was almost destroyed at Novarra.
BTW: Given the nature of the men, I would not be surprised if a large number of the Landsknechts that seem to show up in France in 1514 came from the army that the (notoriously broke) Maximilian led there in 1513, to fight with the English at Guinegate. I could check my sources.
Anyway, as sources are notoriously unreliable any information on the "Black Band" in French service before 1515 would be much appreciated. "Black" as perhaps used to signal "elite" or veteran status, just like "old" or "white" in some occasions, and thus a dual use may be possible.
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Hello there
Potter mentions in 'Renaissance France at War'
'For the Marignan campaign Bubenberg's troop of 3500 already in France was reviewed at Lyon in July 1515 along with 5500-6000 Gelderlanders known as the 'Black Band'*'. here he quotes from a primary source.
....'these were low German Gelderlanders commanded by Tavannes.....Du Bellay noted that they were 'a fighting unit for 20 years' and they continued until Pavia - here two primary sources are quoted from, also a potential nucleus of 1494?
Thus with regard to their formation and area of origin Potter does not appear to be making any assumptions as these points are from eyewitness primary sources.
However, though De la pole commanded 6000 against the English at Therouanne in 1513 and 12000 were raised in 1514 to 'keep Normandy' / invade England I have assumed they were the black band.
I suppose of that 12000 it seems to make sense that these comprised of the 6000 he commanded near Therouanne (but never fought) plus more from those in the area after that campaign which could potentially include the Black band as mentioned above? the force was disbanded without loss in 1514 so these could easily have been the 5500-6000 who appear to have went on to Marignano?
Either way I think there's potential for the Black band to be involved in the 1514 invasion if it occured; the Duke of Guelders was anti Hapsburg and supported by the French at that juncture.
The 6000 figure is curious in latter years as in 1515 Potter (sorry) states from another primary source that an English spy confirms this number of Guelderlanders (possibly the black band?).
De la Pole is mentioned as commanding 6000 in 1523 (primary source) and we know that the black band were destroyed in 1525.
As for the name, i'm not going there, it's too risky !
hope that helps - it might have left more questions but food for thought.
Stuart
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Sorry for the threadomancy. Only fits here, though.
I'm a civil servant, a 2 year delay is positively efficient ;D
Afaik the "Black Band" was created in 1514 by the Duke of Saxony for the Frisian Feud, went into service of the Duke of Geldern after that feud who led it to Francis army in 1515 (Potter errs in his assumption that these were men recruited in Geldern).
Potter mentions in 'Renaissance France at War'
'For the Marignan campaign Bubenberg's troop of 3500 already in France was reviewed at Lyon in July 1515 along with 5500-6000 Gelderlanders known as the 'Black Band'*'. here he quotes from a primary source.
....'these were low German Gelderlanders commanded by Tavannes.....Du Bellay noted that they were 'a fighting unit for 20 years' and they continued until Pavia - here two primary sources are quoted from, also a potential nucleus of 1494?
Thus with regard to their formation and area of origin Potter does not appear to be making any assumptions as these points are from eyewitness primary sources.
However, though De la pole commanded 6000 against the English at Therouanne in 1513 and 12000 were raised in 1514 to 'keep Normandy' / invade England I have assumed they were the black band.
I suppose of that 12000 it seems to make sense that these comprised of the 6000 he commanded near Therouanne (but never fought) plus more from those in the area after that campaign which could potentially include the Black band as mentioned above? the force was disbanded without loss in 1514 so these could easily have been the 5500-6000 who appear to have went on to Marignano?
Either way I think there's potential for the Black band to be involved in the 1514 invasion if it occured; the Duke of Guelders was anti Hapsburg and supported by the French at that juncture.
The 6000 figure is curious in latter years as in 1515 Potter (sorry) states from another primary source that an English spy confirms this number of Guelderlanders (possibly the black band?).
De la Pole is mentioned as commanding 6000 in 1523 (primary source) and we know that the black band were destroyed in 1525.
As for the name, i'm not going there, it's too risky !
hope that helps - it might have left more questions but food for thought.
Stuart
i don't mean to be a pain, but who's quoting and who's commenting? o_o o_o :)
Darrell.
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Sorry Darrell, Gremlins. :?
Have you had any more thoughts on your artillery & archers?
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Henry's Landsknechts or 'Almynys' were recruited from Ghent & Antwerp, or at least were mustered there, the following papers from 1513 relate to their employ, some interesting reading with the usual problems associated with mercenaries, Arlequin will enjoy these methinks;
January 1513, date illegible, John Stile to HVIII; And the Kyng yowr sayd faders sayeyng to me hath byn now of late, that there can be no good war made wyth owte Almaynys, and that therfore hys Majesty thynkeyth that yowr grace awzghte for to have many Almaynys in yowr warrys
3 April 1513 Sir Richard Wingfield to HVIII; Have not received instructions when the 4,000 Almayns are to enter into wages; they have been accustomed to receive their pay immediately, not to be prested. Will have to take them by companies as they come, even though it be before the 15th May, the day Henry has appointed for his horsemen; otherwise they might go over to France
31 May 1513 Sir Richard Wingfield to HVIII; Leaves for Antwerp to-morrow to prepare a passage for the Almains to Calais
Receipt, 3 July 1513 Hen. VIII., by Th. Trye and Ric. Clotton, for necessaries "for the retinue of the Almayns," viz., white and green sarcenet, to make a standard.
don't you just love olde English ! you need to have at least 4 ales in you to understand it
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Forsooth thou knowst a mannes playsur. ;)
Germans, Swiss and Low Country 'duitslanders' were all Germans as far as the rest of Europe was concerned back then. Only modern army list compilers draw a distinction.
:)
'Black Band' is as common a name for a mercenary company as 'city' is for a football team, 'Bande Nere' Anyone? Possibly in the former they had a single black band on their standard, Giovanni della Bande Nere had a number of them on his, hence the name being applied. Not definite of course, but possible.
Some companies had just as long a lineage as football clubs, same entity, just different managers and players over the years. Given that there was continuous warfare in the region from 1477 onwards... to about 1815, I would not be surprised if it was the same Black Band that stayed in being from formation in 1514 until 1525.
*Edit* To be honest, being born and bred in Wolverhampton, speaking Old English comes with the territory, so reading it isn't so hard.
:D
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Just to avoid confusion; in the 1513 campaign HVIII employed Landskechts via Henri of Nassau, Maximilian also brought Landsknechts from the Low Countries paid for by Henry but owing to political climate these won't have been Guelderlanders.
The latter I believe we're the source of at least some of the Lansquenets recruited by the French for both the relief and defence of Therouanne. The relieving force under de Piennes could well have contained the returning Guelderlanders from the previous years italian campaign, these (Landsknechts under de Piennes ) were captained by de la pole.
Sorry to flog a dead horse but there are several bands of Landsknechts in a single campaign here so I'm attempting to eliminate some as not being the black band
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Potter mentions in 'Renaissance France at War'
'For the Marignan campaign Bubenberg's troop of 3500 already in France was
reviewed at Lyon in July 1515 along with 5500-6000 Gelderlanders known as
the 'Black Band'*'. here he quotes from a primary source.
....'these were low German Gelderlanders commanded by Tavannes.....Du Bellay
noted that they were 'a fighting unit for 20 years' and they continued until
Pavia - here two primary sources are quoted from, also a potential nucleus of 1494?
He certainly quotes sources, but that does not mean these sources are correct.
The original "Grote Guard" was formed after Maximilian dissolved (or simply did not
pay) his army in 1493, after the treaty of Senlis made a standing army too expensive.
The unemployed German landsknechts choose one of theirs as leader, Neidhard Fuchs, who led the group into Geldern, because he deemed the duke of Geldern an enemy of the Emperor and so assumed Maximilian would not not object - Neidhard told this later Wiwolt von Schaumburg, who emplyed his guard from 98 for the Duke of Saxony and who left an extensive - if hard to read - autobiography.
The Duke of Geldern, faced with this thread, just hired the band and used it in its own wars, and for the next years the different Landsknecht bands played an infamous part in the policies of the region - with Fuchs usually managing to keep a core of his men employed.
They fought for the King of Sweden, the Dukes of East Frisia, Gelderland or Saxony, the count of Oldenburg and various other employers - often against
other bands, though not gladly, more often against peasant levys or town militia, for
in this decade Frisia lost its independence to the Duke of Saxony and many other nobles tried to subdue these peasant republics, too.
Fuchs was killed, trapped by an overwhelming force from Groningen on his way to Emden, in April 99, and Thomas Slentz took over the band. When the King of Denmark was hiring mercenaries to subdue Dithmarshen, Slentz had
8 Fähnlein with some 2800 men in his "Black Guard". Due to ineptitude of the
Danish King they had to fight at Hemmingstedt under conditions choosen by the defending peasants, and the invasion force was crushed decisively. At least 800 of th Guard, with most of the leaders and including the complete command staff, died. The remnants were immediatly reenlisted for service in Geldern, but the two surviving Fähnleins were no longer a comprehensive "band" but acted independent from now on. The payrolls tell us that only 2 Fähnlein of the 8 remained, but both were considerably larger then before, taking up surviving members of the other
six. In total, only 800 Landsknechts were missing, though it is possible that survivors from the feudal or royal contingent of army also enrolled, so losses may be higher. These units stayed in Saxon service for now.
When the new Duke of Saxon created an army for the subjugation of Frisia in 1514, he again created a "Black Guard" in his own territories, as his main force, and a "White Guard" from locally raised men - the latter never played a significant role. It is
possible - even likely - that this "Black Guard" had at least individuals who
had remained in Saxon service for the intermittend 14 years, but I have not found
records to support this (yet).
So these men were NOT raised in or even near Gelderland, but for Saxony in the Empire proper and then led to Frisia, where they earned a notoriously bad reputation, in the best (or worst) tradition of the original black guard.
Among many other misdeeds, they razed the home of a peasant that
would become the "Grote Piet", an infamous pirate and founder of the "Black hope of Amrum".
When this feud ended (for a time), the Black Band was paid and released on July 1st 1515. Several Frisian histories relate that the majority of these Landsknechts were then taken into service by Charles of Gueldern, who joined these to his own force and let his army via Drente through Geldern to Francis. According to the Encylopedia by Johann Samuel Ersch the Gueldric forces joined Francic at Rovata, not at Lyon, as they were late. Charles left them in Francis army under the command of his nephew, Claude de Lorraine, the later Duke of Guise (his mother was the sister of the Duke).
At this point a contemporary witness may well deem all of these to be Gelderlanders,
but to me it seems that the Gueldric forces were rather absorbed by the "Black band" (given the name), and the majority of these men were not Gelderlanders but from the Empire proper, coming from the typical recruiting grounds of Landsknechts.
Regardless their background, I am absolutely sure that THIS black band was
not at Therouanne. There might be another group, similarly named, though I
deem that unlikely. The first date the Black Band could have joined French service is late July 1515.
As there are some 17.000 Landsknechts reported for Marignano (and Potter gives 23000 for French service in 1515 in toral), it makes sense to assume that the 12000 assembled were simply joined by the 6000 of the Black Band.
Either way I think there's potential for the Black band to be involved in the 1514
invasion if it occured; the Duke of Guelders was anti Hapsburg and supported by the
French at that juncture.
As the black band was at this time still devastating East Frisia for the Duke of Saxony, I fear I must disagree here.
we know that the black band were destroyed in 1525.
Indeed. One of the great mysteries to me is that the name "Black band" is not
mentioned anywhere in French service in between 1515 and 1525 - at least I have
not found it yet.
What I DID find were two references in histories on the Netherlands - written
in Germany in the early 19th century - that the Black Bands did return to
Gueldern after Marignano and were involved in the figthing there. It may be
that some of the pretty gruelsom actions that are blamed on the "black band of
amrum" and the Groote Pier were actually committed by the remnant Black bands
in Gueldric service. Allegedly some 1500 were killed during the storming of
Asperen, which was totally razed afterwards - numbers I find unlikely from
a piracy band. After 1518 the references vanish here, too. It can be that
parts returned while others remained in French service.
There is some military action by Gueldern given for 1524, but not much.
One source:
Zwölf Bücher niederländischer Geschichten, Band 2, Heinrich Leo - P283, Halle 1835
When the French raised a new Landsknechts unit for service in Italy in 1527,
they again named it the "Black Band". The Venetian paid mercenaries were
called the "white band", if I remember my Arfaioli correct. Both would
perish to famine and sickness before Naples, though in this case the
survivors were integrated into the Imperial units without the hatred that
made Pavia such a bad affair.
Germans, Swiss and Low Country 'duitslanders' were all Germans as far as the rest of Europe was concerned back then.
Only modern army list compilers draw a distinction.
Contemporary Swiss, Gelderlanders, Frisians, Saxonians or Swabians also drew that distinction, though most saw themself more or less as Germans. They just had different allegiances, especially regarding the Empire and the Emperor. Especially the Swiss - who had given the Imperial call by Friedrich for war against Charles the Bold in 1475 as a reason (though more a pretext) for their declaration of war - considered themself independent. This view was more or less shared by the
Emperor and Empire after the Swabian war of 1499, a pretty bloody affair.
'Black Band' is as common a name for a mercenary company as 'city' is for a football team,
'Bande Nere' Anyone? Possibly in the former they had a single black band on their standard,
Giovanni della Bande Nere had a number of them on his, hence the name being applied.
Not definite of course, but possible.
The "Black Guard" of 1494-1500 called itself the "Grote" (large) or sometimes "German" guard after its creation (to differ it from the Welsch (French/Burgund), English or Italians), and allegedly used the "Black" only after Wiwolt von Schaumburg (acting for Albrecht, the Duke of Saxony) paid them once with mainly black clothing.
The 1514 Guard was probably called "Black" in remembrance to the first unit, when the new Duke of Saxony created it. At the same time he created a "White" guard from local recruits, but that one never had the same military renown as the "Black" guard that included veteran warbands in his service, most likely many individualy among them who did serve in the first band.
That said, "black" was a usual distinguishing name - probably not as "city", but as
"lion" or "guard". There were several other "black" units around, from the dissolved
black army of Corvinus up to small groups with revolutionary background.
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Wow, thanks for the encyclopaedic response !
I don't think I'm best qualified to fill in the pre 1525 gaps in your knowledge.
Have you any black bands in figure form?
Stuart
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Indeed an epic and extremely interesting response, thank you. :)
... but where does Floris van Roozemond (http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Floris_(TV_series)) fit into all this? ;)
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Pole's brother John, according to Fox-Davies' Heraldic Badges used; "Lyon of gold the Kewe
forched" [MS. 2nd M. 16, Coll. Arms] in 1475.
I believe Fox-Davies gives the lion as a badge for John the father rather than John the brother (i.e. Suffolk rather than Lincoln. Lincoln's personal arms, however, (which can be seen here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_de_la_Pole,_1st_Earl_of_Lincoln (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_de_la_Pole,_1st_Earl_of_Lincoln)) are the same as his father's, but with a cadet label, so perhaps the younger brothers used the same, changing brisures (or ignoring cadency altogether) as the preceding males died.
I am working on some speculative alternate banners for my Stoke Field project, and I'm happy to share them if they're of interest to you all.
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Definitely, I love your Schwarz banners.
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Sorry for the lengthy reply - I got carried away :-)
The history of the Black Band is some kind of pet project of mine - after I realized during a history project that the town I live in now was plundered by A black band in 1515, and then realized that this is the same Black Band of Marignano fame.
I am working on some speculative alternate banners for my Stoke Field project, and I'm happy to share them if they're of interest to you all.
I once heard the idea that the "Black" in Black guard came from Martin Schwartz, as his name means Black in German. Untrue, in all likelyness, as the "Black" only shows up late.
Apart from that, the coincidence that the Landsknechts were formalized in the same year as the expedition of Schwartz and his band to England is kind of itching with me. I am probably missing some connection...
Ideas or previews of Flags (or other stuff) would be most welcome :-)
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Sorry for the lengthy reply - I got carried away :-)
It's okay, I can't comment on 'over-long posts' without considering some of my own. ::)
When such a thing contains such a wealth of information - bearing in mind a lot of that is completely innaccessible to English readers too, I personally am quite grateful for them!
I once heard the idea that the "Black" in Black guard came from Martin Schwartz, as his name means Black in German. Untrue, in all likelyness, as the "Black" only shows up late.
Apart from that, the coincidence that the Landsknechts were formalized in the same year as the expedition of Schwartz and his band to England is kind of itching with me. I am probably missing some connection...
Ideas or previews of Flags (or other stuff) would be most welcome :-)
Even if there was no actual connection, Schwartz and/or some of his merry band would have known, personally or by reputation, some of the members of the Black Band... it was a small world they moved in.
I am working on some speculative alternate banners for my Stoke Field project, and I'm happy to share them if they're of interest to you all.
Of course they are, please do! :)
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Ditto, Don't be sorry and thanks for explaining your reasoning as to why Potter could have misinterpreted his sources.
I'm putting together a French army for 1513 and he's my only reliable source so he's my baby at the moment, but as you point out he is a secondary source and the primary sources must also be taken in context and are not themselves infallible.
That and I took a leap of faith that De la Pole commanded the Black band in the decade preceding Pavia, he is noted as being an experienced commander of Landsknechts but as you point out it given the Frisian origin and use elsewhere it doesn't make sense - anything you can find on him would also be appreciated, especially the 6000 under his command outside Therouanne.
I was lucky with the English as the primary sources are rich, detailed, varied and freely available - in English, sorry Englishe.
Do you know much about Henri of Nassau's alliance with Henry at this time or was it a sub contract via Maximilian?
All the best
Stuart
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(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-IUGGttCFT5M/UZIz6npc57I/AAAAAAAACE8/PDZIhXwbA2o/s1600/lands+002.jpg)
Can't have too many words without a break !
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And a nice break it is
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And a nice break it is
Quite so. They look wonderful. Stunning as always.
I once heard the idea that the "Black" in Black guard came from Martin Schwartz, as his name means Black in German. Untrue, in all likelyness, as the "Black" only shows up late.
Apart from that, the coincidence that the Landsknechts were formalized in the same year as the expedition of Schwartz and his band to England is kind of itching with me. I am probably missing some connection...
Yes, it's an exciting coincidence, isn't it? I'm inclined to agree with you about the Black/Schwartz connection, but as Mr. Arlequín pointed out, even if there was no direct link, it was a small world they all lived in.
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I'm a bit bemused that for all their colour and flamboyance, the best two names they came up with were 'Black' and 'White' Guards. :?
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Surely the Arlequin guard would be better though they may be distracted by rugby ::)
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(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-IUGGttCFT5M/UZIz6npc57I/AAAAAAAACE8/PDZIhXwbA2o/s1600/lands+002.jpg)
Can't have too many words without a break !
8) Stuet makes a good point!! 8)
Darrell.