Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => Fantasy Adventures => Topic started by: Mason on 17 November 2012, 03:45:58 PM
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I intend to start putting together a WFB 3rd edition Undead army and was looking for a little advice.
I intend to use the following units, and as most of the figures will be conversions, I do not want to waste too much time making too many things that I wont use:
Skeleton Warriors: How big should a unit be to be useful?
Grim Reapers: Worth taking large units and more than one, how effective are two handed weapons?
Death Riders: Is it worth having a large unit, or just a couple of smaller units?
Crossbows and Archers: Worth taking or not?
Chariots: Take them or not? Units or single model with character?
Carrion: Any use?
War Machines: Worth taking a few or just the one?
Plague Cart: Is it any good?
I intend to make all of these, or at least most of them.
I just thought that I would just pick your brains before I start.
Any advice from the experienced amongst you?
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And so it begins. Oldhammer players judging the "viability" of this unit vs that .
lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol
Sorry, man, I'm just getting in a cheap shot. :D Even so, isn't fair to say your line of inquiry goes against "the whole point" (pardon the synecdoche) of Oldhammer?
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oops, doublepost
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And so it begins. Oldhammer players judging the "viability" of this unit vs that .
Sorry, man, I'm just getting in a cheap shot. :D Even so, isn't fair to say your line of inquiry goes against "the whole point" (pardon the synecdoche) of Oldhammer?
I take your point, but that was not what I meant.
I am asking if there is any point in making 'X' amount of units of 'Y', just because I want to.
I intend making at least one of everything, but dont want to waste time making four chariots, for example, if I will probably only use one, as everything will be converted and more than a little time consuming.
Not intending to try and 'powergame' (not my thing), just dont want to spend ages on something that wont be used.
Also need to know just how many of everything I will need.
:)
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As a former 3rd edition undead player...let me say I ran a block of 100 warriors with command, 20 mounted, 30 archers, plague cart, and 5 chariots, plus 3 carrion, 3 skullchuckers and a unit of 10 zombies I think it was, all led by a necromancer lord with army standard bearer. points were around 5k depending on magic and items. Skeletons work best at 20 or more per block due to being somewhat fragile in smaller units. Zombies are simply speedbumps. Please post pic's as you go, as I am waiting to see what you do with tis, having enjoyed your Mordheim and SA stuff.
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I take your point, but that was not what I meant.
I am asking if there is any point in making 'X' amount of units of 'Y', just because I want to.
I intend making at least one of everything, but dont want to waste time making four chariots, for example, if I will probably only use one, as everything will be converted and more than a little time consuming.
Not intending to try and 'powergame' (not my thing), just dont want to spend ages on something that wont be used.
Also need to know just how many of everything I will need.
:)
I see it as a slippery slope and once you are framing the game in terms of what you'll "need" and considering that things might not get used, it's just a degree or two away from the way Warhammer is played today. Your last post seems more similar to discussions on Warseer or the Privateer Press forum, not less. Just a matter of degree. Not that it's inherently bad, or anything. But I'll stick to playing entirely different kind of game where the rules can't affect the chance something will or "won't get used." I think points values are the problem and what we have today stemmed inevitably from the decision to give each guy a points value. Which is why I look askance at the Oldhammer thing and see a distinct irony there. As Bart Simpson says, the ironing is delicious! :D
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As a former 3rd edition undead player...let me say I ran a block of 100 warriors with command, 20 mounted, 30 archers, plague cart, and 5 chariots, plus 3 carrion, 3 skullchuckers and a unit of 10 zombies I think it was, all led by a necromancer lord with army standard bearer. points were around 5k depending on magic and items. Skeletons work best at 20 or more per block due to being somewhat fragile in smaller units. Zombies are simply speedbumps. Please post pic's as you go, as I am waiting to see what you do with tis, having enjoyed your Mordheim and SA stuff.
Thanks, Lordblackwing.
It gives me a decent guideline of what I am possibly looking at and the tip for large blocks of skellies works for me as a visual thing.
Rest assured that I will be posting pics as I go, as I will be looking for tips etc...
:)
Spooktalker:
I was not really aiming at the rules so much, as I have not played 3rd for about 25 years, and that was more of 'use what you have' kind of thing.
I was just asking other players of the edition what they have used as a guideline to what I 'need' to make etc..
I will rephrase, then:
What have you used when you played Undead in 3rd.
Hope that helps.
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a long long time ago... I never played Undead, but played against them many times.
I remember the howling skulls as real pain for my orc&gobbo army, Ld checks every turn :-(
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I'll be looking forward to seeing pics. I had the old plague cart mini but never thought there were rules for it. I may need to dig it out and see if I can find that ox head that I lost somewhere in my bits pile so long ago.
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As far as i remember the chart rules appeared on the warhammer armies book.
Never saw it on the board, but i will say it deserves to be enlisted to add flavour, like the bugmans chart on a dwarf army, or the Vampire Count's Black Coach (from 7th? 6th ed?)
Sometimes I play with the idea to get into the Old Hammer too, but that will be the final destruction of my 3rd ed rulebook, the spine and hinges are damaged and hardly will resist a new read, and never seen a pdf of it.
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Sometimes I play with the idea to get into the Old Hammer too, but that will be the final destruction of my 3rd ed rulebook, the spine and hinges are damaged and hardly will resist a new read, and never seen a pdf of it.
You can pick them up for a reasonable price from Amazon.
That is where I got mine for about ten quid plus postage.
;)
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interesting, I just check at amazon uk, many WFB starting at 9GBP, but sadly none of the sellers want to ship to Spain, maybe they only ship locally.
The only one shipping abroad is asking £48 for the book.
Thanks for the heads up, will be a matter to keep watching for a seller willing to ship abroad.
I checked also amazon.com and I realized some sellers have the "evilbay mark of chaos" on price policy
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00A0PNJBC/ref=olp_product_details?ie=UTF8&me=&seller=
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00A5FT4B6/ref=olp_product_details?ie=UTF8&me=&seller=
$3,899.97 for a w40k rulebook? it should include an Emperor's genetic sample or something similar?
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Hi Mason
Having now played two games of 3rd ed with my undead, I thought I might chuck my hat in the ring.
Also - totally get what Spooktalker is on about, so won't pass comment either way - my undead army has been shaped by the scenario notes for Terror of the Lichemaster and I'm only getting onto the interesting things like the plague cart and the skull chuckers now. This is my army:
http://warhammerforadults.blogspot.co.uk/2012/09/milestone-reached.html (http://warhammerforadults.blogspot.co.uk/2012/09/milestone-reached.html)
Since I did that, I've painted the Plague Cart and I'm using 30 or so allied chaos goblins and six 4th edition mummies (you know - the cheerleader variety with their hands all up in the air - soon to be decommissioned and replaced with proper mummies). So, my army is more or less as follows:
20 regular skeletons
20 grim reaper skeletons
20 zombies
6 mummies
1 plague cart
10 chaos dwarves
30 chaos goblins
1 chaos sorcerer contingent commander
1 liche (level 10 or 15)
1 necromancer (level 20)
...and the assorted unit champions
Why these numbers? That's all I have that's painted.
My experience with the army so far, not based on stats or anything else is:
Man - I wish I had more interesting stuff in the army!
So my own advice would be, get the cavalry and the chariots and the skull chuckers and the carrion! And the ghouls! And some spirit hosts! Get the interesting stuff! I can't wait to get my interesting stuff painted! Get an allied contingent (can't wait to paint the chaos dwarf warmachines!) which will also add some flavour.
The reason I say this is that it gives both you and your opponent a much more dynamic game if you have some flying things and some things that can go through walls, etc.
I keep meaning to set up a game where I can capture the whole thing as a battle report (thus enabling people to see the undead in 'action'), but the problem with battle reports is that if you want to do it properly, it doubles the length of the game - something that married men with small children need to be very mindful if they plan to carry on playing warhammer for much longer...
@Donpimpom
I would recommend you check out the thoroughly excellent http://realmofchaos80s.blogspot.co.uk/ (http://realmofchaos80s.blogspot.co.uk/). Orlygg, the proprieter of said blog, keeps a list of interesting links on the top right of his page - I think some of those might be exactly the sort of thing you are looking for...
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Thanks, weazil!
That is the kind of thing I was looking for.
I appreciate the point Spooktalker (and Bart!) had to make, that was not my angle.
I intend to convert and paint the entire army within a theme, and the questions regarding unit sizes is because I intend to base them on scenic type unit bases, so they amount in each unit would be particularly useful at the beginning.
I doubt that I will even get to play that much, I just want to build and paint a nice characterful army.
I want to include all the interesting stuff as they will be fun to make, but will not be using Mummies and Zombies, or Allies most likely, as they wont fit the theme. (At least they wont unless I can find something similar in the mythology to justify them....).
The Plague Cart is a 'must make' even if it is a bit pointless in the army, but the problem I have is the chariots. Chariots 'as is' would not really fit the overall look, but maybe something that 'counts as' a chariot would.
So: Chariots- Yes or no, units or singles?
What is your preference if you have used them?
It really does matter for how I approach the modelling aspect.
:)
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I refuse to even begin trying to wrap my brain around the whole side-game of strategic army-building, but I do like to do a bit of roleplay as the general/necromancer/chaos lord and imagine how he'd go about choosing troops and how he'd view their abilities.
I'd enjoy some sort of mini-game that's all about the economics of raising/summoning/recruiting your forces... there must be some interesting tales that go into the building of an undead army.
mummies and chariots don't seem like a good fit to me either. Could some sort of small wagon stand in for a chariot? Similar to the plague cart in design. Is the idea just to have some archers in a juggernaut that can move about quickly?
The background story for the plague cart seems like it oughtta be an element that the GM has control of... put it on some chart of things that could appear during the game.
I'd still use zombies but call them something less voodoo-flavored... like 'revenants'.
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The whole point of doing the army is the theme, so I am really struggling to get chariots in there.
I am thinking along similar lines with the Plague Cart, so that is not really a problem.
Mummies, as in Egyptian mummies, are definitely out, but zombies are a possibility although unlikely as I will probably not want do do another zombie ever again, what with another project that will run side-by-side with this one....
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Thanks Weazil!
I have seen this blogs many times and never realized those links, I'm blind! o_o
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Hi Mason
I quite like the idea of chariots, but I can see why you might not want ones created entirely out of bone (when did these necromancers get a grip on engineering anyway?).
In terms of modelling chariots, I would always have them as single units, simply because of the damage charts - if you suddenly end up with one that can't turn left anymore and you've based two on the same base...
Also, visually, I love the idea of chariots fitting in between the various units. I don't have any chariots (just because I don't have the models yet - watch this space), but I doubt I would go past two. No clever tactical reason - two because I might want one just for rank and file and the other for one of the characters (again, if I was able to make a chariot out of bone, I'd certainly not want to be walking around on foot!)
As for things that 'count as' chariots, I think Pil has showed us the way - the undead mammoth he painted (a well known and I believe fairly easily available figure (Mirliton, is it?)) might be just the thing! I think it makes sense that it would match the damage tables and it would take up about the same amount of space on the field.
What sort of theme are you going for - or perhaps - which type of mythology are you trying to match up to?
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I quite like the idea of chariots, but I can see why you might not want ones created entirely out of bone (when did these necromancers get a grip on engineering anyway?).
I feel the same about the Skull Chucker... though I like the idea of a catapult that throws some sort of cursed human head (I've never read up on exactly how it works in game). Why skulls? Wouldn't they be better served on the shoulders of skeleton warriors?
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The skull thrower by default uses stones, you pay additional points to replace the stones by howling skulls.
Gaming wise it's a very effective weapon against low Ld armies, like orcs & goblins, my usual opponent used to hire a couple, that means (if lucky) a couple of Ld test each turn, a real pain for a green army. Additionally almost all the undead regiments cause fear.
I had some battles with the whole army running like headless chickens :'(
From a background point of view i like the idea of howling skull flying on the battlefield, but can easily be replaced by zombie or spectral heads
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Thanks for all the tips, chaps.
As for things that 'count as' chariots, I think Pil has showed us the way - the undead mammoth he painted (a well known and I believe fairly easily available figure (Mirliton, is it?)) might be just the thing! I think it makes sense that it would match the damage tables and it would take up about the same amount of space on the field.
What sort of theme are you going for - or perhaps - which type of mythology are you trying to match up to?
To be perfectly honest, I was thinking the same sort of thing that Pil has done.
As for theme, I am thinking a kind of Undead Norse look, but am basing the army on various types of warriors from within British history, so Celts, Saxons, Vikings etc...and the Mammoth is an obvious option.
I just cant see them using chariots, although I was considering a couple based on Ancient British chariots...maybe the dead from previous eras summoned would provide the chariot option.
Even the cavalry are a bit of a push, as the Dark Age armies that I will be basing them on often travelled by horse, but mostly fought on foot.
The Ebob skeletal horse is a nice model, though, and I can see a few mounted skellies as I fancy making some.
I wont be starting the construction until next month, but would like an idea of what I need before starting, as I dont want to wish that I had included something later.