Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => The Second World War => Topic started by: Irishrover13 on December 01, 2012, 06:45:06 PM
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Hi all, I am new to historical wargaming and I just picked up Disposable heroes, what do people suggest for minis 15mm or 28mm? Is there much difference? 15mm seem like they are more conductive to large battles at least or am I wrong?
Cheers,
Irish
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20 mm is a Great Scale for Disposable Heroes.
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My club is doing Bolt Action in 15mm and it is working really well.
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15mm needs less space for storage (especially terrain) and can be cheaper for vehicles etc.
20mm gives a lot of options for using plastic kits.
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Where do you get 20mm?
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20mm you can use soft plastic figures like the ones produced by Italeri, Revell and Ceasar miniatures for example. In hard plastic the http://theplasticsoldiercompany.co.uk/ (http://theplasticsoldiercompany.co.uk/) does German, Russian and British infantry (also in 15mm and 28mm). Metal 20mms are also widely available from SHQ, Dixon Miniatures, Elheim miniatures, etc.
The only thing to be careful of (in any scale) is getting figures which are able to mix well if from different ranges.
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your scale will depend on who you are going to play?
are you in a club or are you going to play a mate?
We play 6mm, 10mm, 15mm, 20mm and 28mm. depending on the rules.
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Sadly I don't have a club yet, Though I am putting adds and stuck out to find other gamers. The thing is I am rather far north in Alberta, Canada. I am teaching my grade 7 class to play Disposable hero to help learn about World War 2. I am thinking 15mm might be the best option because it is pricey to go with the 28 and have enough for all the kids.
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Sadly I don't have a club yet, Though I am putting adds and stuck out to find other gamers. The thing is I am rather far north in Alberta, Canada. I am teaching my grade 7 class to play Disposable hero to help learn about World War 2. I am thinking 15mm might be the best option because it is pricey to go with the 28 and have enough for all the kids.
15mm is very cheap to get into, especially now that plastic figures and vehicles are beginning to pop up. Where in Alberta are you? I can ask around my club (here in Toronto) if anyone knows some gamers where you are.
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How far north are you? Here in Edmonton, we have the Edmonton Wargames Group, we meet twice a month on the 1st and 3rd Tuesdays. Please check out our Yahoo group, we may be able to put in contact with gamers in your area if you are further north.
http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/EWG/
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I am in St Paul about a 2 hour drive to get to Edmonton. So Tuesday are right out since they are a school night.
I have checked out the Group and I may pop in for you may event.
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Yes, even I have some trouble with the Tuesday nights and I live in Edmonton! It's pretty tight to fit in the game in the 2h window. However, there are occasional weekend events, both officially and unofficially. Keep active on the Yahoo group and I'm sure we can make something work!
Cheers
Will
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Hey Will,
Can you buy historical minis in Edmonton or do you order online?
Cheers,
Daniel
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Ok everyone, stand back! here's the answer! Well ok no err maybe.....
If you have no gamers friends yet and this is really to teach kids you need to consider COST / Wear ability / availability / storage. If this is for school kids you definitely need to go as cheap and easy as possible. They will be tough on the stuff. Plastic 20mm or 1/72 scale as we call it is fine for them. They are light and when you are finished box them up and go. Cheap figures with quick easy paint jobs is best for now. There are tons of 1/72 or 20mm items for sale cheap on the internet. In fact I think I might have a bunch of items you can have for postage if you like! Vehicles, troops in 20mm-1/72
15mm nor 28mm are cheap as the sources are limited to mostly metal. You CAN spend money in any of the scales when you get to the high end type terrain and figures but for kids...no
I have played dozens of rules and written one set, I would use CROSSFIRE for teaching kids. That however depends on what your are trying to teach them.
Now that being said I have 20mm (huge collection) and some 28mm for small skirmish. Mine are all Metal figures, metal/resin/plastic vehicles
When you find a group for private gaming then talk amongst yourselves and figure out what the group wants to invest in otherwise you might spend money on a period or scale that the others don't support / play.
Bill W
(http://www.historicalhobbies.com/DOGS/main/images/jpgs/FrenchManor1.jpg)
In one of the upstairs rooms of the Manor! Hans listens to the Victrola while Conrad takes a turn at the Piano! The figures are shown about 4 times their size....they are 20mm
(http://www.historicalhobbies.com/DOGS/main/images/jpgs/FrenchManor6.jpg)
(http://www.historicalhobbies.com/DOGS/main/images/jpgs/FrenchManor7.jpg)
(http://www.historicalhobbies.com/DOGS/main/images/jpgs/IS5.jpg)
(http://www.historicalhobbies.com/DOGS/main/images/Crossfire/Cross4.jpg)
(http://www.historicalhobbies.com/ForSale/Bigcase2omm.jpg)
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To me 20 mm plastic is unbeatable in price. Especially if you need lots of them. They also look better than 15 mm and paint faster than 28mm. All vehicles are usually cheap and with the new click models they are pretty fast in action. You get 20 mm on every model website at least in Germany and if you get them here you`ll get them in Canada too. And if you want them in metal you get this scale in metal too but I would always go for plastic in this scale.
Cheers
Björn
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For 20mm WW2 join here;
www.guildwargamers.com
No other size has the masses of options that 20mm and 1/72nd kits gives you. Virtually anything can be got from the norm (German Infantry) to the odd (I have a Royal Thai Army starting in 20mm).
We also have a few Canadian members on The Guild that may help with games or stockists.
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Hey Will,
Can you buy historical minis in Edmonton or do you order online?
Cheers,
Daniel
Depends what you are looking for. Mission Fun and Games in St Albert has some things
http://www.missionfunandgames.com/
Woodrow's War Store is owned by an EWG club member, but is mail order only, and as the owner is moving to Calgary, we're not certain what will become of the shop. I've just noticed a dead link for the website, toysoldiers.ca
For gaming shops in Alberta, you'll probably find the Sentry Box justifies the trek to Calgary:
sentrybox.ca
On the other hand, I've done quite well with mail order from all over the globe. If you want someone else to manage the hassle of import duties, though, I recommend North Bay Games and Hobbies in Ontario
http://www.northbaygamesandhobbies.ca/
Hope that helps
Will
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One other advantage of 20mm plastics like Revell, Ceasar, etc is that they are often single piece castings, the hard plastic 15mm/20mm like the Plastic Soldier Company figures do often need a small amount of assembly and are less robust - easier to paint, though if soft plastics are given a coat of thinned PVA glue they will take paint reasonably well.
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20 mm is soft plastic which I don't recommend. Plastic Soldier sells 15 mm rigid plastic soldiers and tanks dirty cheap.
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I paint 20 mm plastic for years now and never had problems with paint cracking off.
1. Wash them in soap.
2. dry them
3. base them
4. undercoat them with primer from a spray can - if you do this prime them afterwards per hand with the colour of your choice.
5. let them dry
6. paint them
7. varnish them one or two times.
8. finish base.
well its always a matter of taste. I can recommend the scale because I am very pleased with 20 mm and I have plenty of choices for my armies for an affordable price.
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You might try a company called Warlord games: http://www.warlordgames.com They do a line of plastic 28mm figures in boxed sets (considerably cheaper than the metal figures). If I play skirmish rules, I prefer the look of 28mm figures, and they might be easier for kids to handle, versus 15mm.
I haven't seen a whole lot of games played in 20mm scale. Most of the games I've played have been either 15mm or 28mm.
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20 mm is soft plastic which I don't recommend. Plastic Soldier sells 15 mm rigid plastic soldiers and tanks dirty cheap.
They also sell 20mm/1:72 (15mm is my preferred option though)
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Hi all,
I know this started out as discussion on scales but at it heart is the teaching about battles and history by using Wargames as a teaching instrument, this for me is something near and dear to my heart. Something that I have myself done and I think it bears touching on here a bit for all to read and think about. I have taken the liberty of printing here in public what was a private reply by Irishrover to my previous post. If Irshrover has a problem with this I will certainly delete it
Hey Bill,
This is Irishrover from Lead Adventures the one using wargames to
teach world wars. I have a class of very visual and hands on student
and I am mostly trying to help them visualize the battles and combat
of the war using miniatures. I am using Disposable Heroes because
Keith over at Iron Ivans was nice enough to donate the rules but I
will look into CROSSFIRE. I am interested in the minis you do not want
anymore, my principle thinks this is a great idea as long as the
school does not need to fund it, so any help is welcome. Figure out
the cost and I will get you a money order or paypal it or something.
Cheers,
Daniel
My reply was this,
Hi Daniel,
Very interesting approach provided you do not impart to them that war is a game, clean, without sacrifice, where afterwards we put the troops away safe and sound to be brought out another day good as new. You must temper these lessons with the very harsh reality that some of these soldiers will be disfigured, suffer loss of limbs, and many will lose their lives and futures in those mad hours of battle. Those of us who chose this hobby need to remember that we make light of situations that in reality are horrible affairs. This was done for ages when war wascglamorized and the civilian population for the most part never saw the harsh realities of war because of the absence of media to show it to them. Vietnam was the first war that really showed the horror and the resulting backlash was enormous. I and my group know this and we are very conscious of having respect for those who lives and deaths we mimic on the battlefield. We learn tactics, strategies, uniforms, the why and where of battles, and much more, but we are careful to remember that we are not truly duplicating this on the game board.
So figure out what you little battles are to really teach them, or is it a way to just physically get them interested in history of the period. I think the idea is great but it must be tempered with the dark side in a school environment. Perhaps at the end of a game you as they put the figures away select a few and say "oh no, not them, they did not survive the battle!" then smash them with a hammer, burn them with a lighter, crush them with pliers! toss one out the window to simulate those whose emotional scars cause them to become lost and homeless and say "this is the reality of war some of them will never return to their friends, families, or the lives they left" I would suggest some sort of visual storyboard showing the dead, dieing, and destruction of war, the loved ones at home grieving for those who will not return, rows of amputees in their beds. Play out the landing at Omaha beach then show them the landing sequence in the movie "Saving Private Ryan". When the German Pak 75 fires out of ambush into the side of the US Sherman explain the effect of that round penetrating the tank. Do this and you will be teaching them valuable lessons of the horror of war as well as respect for those who have the guts to sacrifice everything to fight it for the rest of us.
I am not familiar with Disposable Heroes but It seems by its title to be one of the games that makes battles into a more fun super hero type affair? Not that I am against this or to put the rules down as I play many games just like that and love them, I just think you need a set that does not in any way glamorize war. CROSSFIRE is very good at simulating real tactics needed to move company size units across a battle field in the period you a dealing with. It is relatively simple and quick to both learn and play. I deal very nicely with the "10,000" foot general effect on the battlefield. It has a dedicated YAHOO group where questions about the game are answered by long time players very quickly. Perhaps I might get permission to copy a set and send them to you.
Ok now that being said good luck to you and any help I can provide I surly will. I will check today on what I might have to send you. I can also offer advice on this subject if you want a thick skull to bounce it off of. I have some experience with this as I was President of Historical Miniatures Gaming Society Pacific SouthWest for the last 3 years and we did many public presentations as well as in school demonstrations. We were always careful to leave them with a sense of the sacrifice others had made for the convictions they held.
Please forgive me for putting this up on the public post but I felt it belonged here instead of in a Private post.
Sincerely,
Bill Witthans
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Sadly I don't have a club yet, Though I am putting adds and stuck out to find other gamers. The thing is I am rather far north in Alberta, Canada. I am teaching my grade 7 class to play Disposable hero to help learn about World War 2. I am thinking 15mm might be the best option because it is pricey to go with the 28 and have enough for all the kids.
We run a school club in Scarborough, North Yorkshire.
For WWII we use PBI from Peter Pig. Uses a squared board so we have no arguments about measuring or who's in cover who isn't. Club ages range from 10-17 years old. We even did the Arnhem campaign a couple of years ago:
http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=11923.0
This summer we did Queenston Heights 1812.
PM if you want any details.
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Not going to say re choice of 15mm, 20mm and 28mm as this is covered by the other replies. I have though just starte to put together a 15mm force on a bit of a budget. This means I am avoiding FOW to a certain extent as the cost of them is a bit ont he high side.
I have so far bought some palstic soldier company vehicles which have gone together really nice and look good. Also have some Zvedzva snap kits which do not have the same detail but are quick and easy to build (although some need to be glued in places)
In addition I bought the FOW open Fire Starter set as it seemed very good value as I got it at a good price. Have put together the Stugs and 1st of the Shermans - Not keen on the way the vehicles look feel adn go together. Figure wise I originally bought some Wargames Factory figures and this was supplemented with the Open fire figures. The two don't really go together at all though. I think the Wargames Factory figures are probably closest to pure scale however the detail is very fine and some of the barrels are likely to bend as they are so thin. The FOW figures are far more bulky but they hold together better, have more interesting poses and the detail is easier to pick out. The FOW bases are far nicer too. The Warganes Factory figures though do include mortars.
Hope this helps
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Hi Bill,
I am taking it a step farther then just the violence of war. My class
is made up of Cree First Native student and over 50% of them have
family (Great uncles/aunts or Grandparents) that fought in the Second
world war and suffered due to actions made by the Canadian government
post war. We are still researching their units but I might try to use
their combats as my starting point and they will "step into the shoes
of their relatives" I also have one girl who's Grandfather is a
veteran of the war. He is coming in and he thinks this idea might
work. He is going to walk the students through one of the firefights
he was in in Europe using the army men if possible. I am also trying
this as a why to get the students interested in history. Unfortunately
many of my students seem to think the war is like the computer games
and I want them to expand their scope of understanding. I also want
them reading more and the math based skills are a plus.
.As for "disposable heroes" the title is based on a quote made by a
American General. The rules are pretty intuitive with the men
representing 1 person each and the rules assuming they are smarter
then you. They are considered to be consistently moving and shifting
rather then static like in many minis games. The designer Keith also
puts is very little fluff in the books though with the little he does,
he covers the army and the the suffering on all sides and the horrors
of war. The scale is also good being platoon level with a average of
about 40-50 soldiers and a hand full of vehicles on the table for a
small game. He also sent me a squad based skirmish set of rule that
can be played with as little as little as 10 soldiers a side. I looked
for Crossfire but the rules are out print and I have had no luck yet I
will likely pick them up if I find them. I will get back to you on the
battles, though we are hopefully going to finish the family tracing
before the holidays and the we will fight the battles after the
holidays.
Cheers,
Daniel