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Other Stuff => Workbench => Topic started by: OSHIROmodels on December 05, 2012, 08:49:58 AM

Title: A question about dip
Post by: OSHIROmodels on December 05, 2012, 08:49:58 AM

I have dip but I want to change the colour of it. Would any of you chaps know what sort of dyes, inks, paints would suffice. I don't really want to experiment with a 20 quid tin of the stuff and decanting is a bitch  ::) lol

cheers

James

Title: Re: A question about dip
Post by: Eric the Shed on December 05, 2012, 09:51:57 AM

Given its oil based what about mixing in thinned enamel paint of the colour of your chioice?

Title: Re: A question about dip
Post by: Damas on December 05, 2012, 09:54:50 AM

Hi Jim,

From my experience, most dips are a polycrylic sealer or varnish with a tint added.  If you want to make your own, http://www.klasskote.co.uk/accessories.htm are stockists of Minwax Polycrylic, or you can use Ronseal variants from most DIY suppliers.

Polycrylic sealers should be compatible with most acrylic paints so you can make your own shades, just mix and test!

Title: Re: A question about dip
Post by: Vonkluge on December 05, 2012, 09:58:46 AM

Ahh the english languge what is a "qiud" amount to in US?

When you say dip, you mean stain as in wood stain? then I assume it is some shade of brown?

What color are you looking to go to?

What are you trying to dip or are you going to use this as a wash?

Try taking a small amount a test it.

Bill W

Title: Re: A question about dip
Post by: Major_Gilbear on December 05, 2012, 01:04:51 PM

1) A "Quid" is a pound sterling (so about $1.60 USD)

2) No need to decant; use a straw as a pipette to cleanly and easily obtain a suitable sample quantity (I understand that you are fond of Burger King, yes? Their straws should be great for this and are "free"...).

3) If the dip/varnish is water-soluble, then some acrylic ink would work well. If it is oil-based, then try adding a *tiny* amount of oil-based paint (like Humbrol or such) to get the tint.

4) The Army Painter dips are great I'm sure, but lots of other companies actually make this stuff for a lot less money. Like Ronseal or Minwax for example. Such companies also make their products in colours other than a variety of browns, and can include greens, blues, reds, purples, and so on.

5) Depending on the models, and what you're trying to achieve, you can make up your own acrylic washes very easily and quite cheaply. You can then just varnish after you're done as usual. Many of these washes can be given dip-like properties in terms of application and colour finish.

Title: Re: A question about dip
Post by: Vonkluge on December 05, 2012, 09:44:24 PM

Thanks Major Gil-Bear.... see I thought a Quid was two times a pound, but I guess its like us calling a dollar a "buck" lol

Ahh the "Old Army Painter" is so expensive line..... lol, Yes if you look at the two being equal then yes the other alternatives are priced less. They are however not the same product. I have used both for years and now despite the cost use only Army painter stain. Army Painter is indeed the same type of product but one is specially formulated for staining water based painted miniatures and one is formulated for staining wood furniture. Yes I have gotten pretty good results from the regular wood stains I and many others have had bad reactions to dip made this way. I have quite a bit of experience in these stains, I also make lots of items of wood, cases, furniture, cabinets, I have plenty of wood stain (mostly Minwax)to use FREE and yet I now use Army painter BECAUSE it is designed to be used on miniatures. I have yet to see a "dipping stain" that has the property of sucking underneath detail that army painter has.  It is more expensive because the market it is intended for is microscopic compared to the wood stain market, not because someone is gouging hobbyist. :-[

Army painter I think is well worth the money and does a superior job to any stain I have concocted or used when you talk about dipping whole groups or armies. Individual stains and washes are a completely different matter and Army painter was NOT designed for that.

It would be nice to see army painter in other colors but since the main purpose of these types of drippings is to define and ad depth and shadow to a who figure or army. Dipping the entire figure and army in a blue, red, or purple would not work unless it was a space/sci fi army? It seems that pretty much only browns and blacks serve for this.

Paint on!

Bill W

Title: Re: A question about dip
Post by: OSHIROmodels on December 05, 2012, 10:26:04 PM

Quote from: Major_Gilbear on December 05, 2012, 01:04:51 PM

I understand that you are fond of Burger King, yes?

Not really, no  ;D

Thanks for the replies chaps.

cheers

James

Title: Re: A question about dip
Post by: Major_Gilbear on December 06, 2012, 01:07:42 PM

@ Vonkluge:

Yes, exactly right: "a quid" is the Brit version of "a buck".

As for cost/awesomeness of AP vs Woodstain... I mostly pass comment because Jimbibbly did make reference to the cost of the AP bight high enough that he didn't want to waste much on trials.
In terms of how good it is vs woodstain, and whether individual models or whole armies are more suitable for the process... Not a debate I'm prepared to get into really (always ends in tears all-round!).

What I will say though, it that the dip (IMO) doesn't have to be the finishing stage; it can be used as an intermediate stage, and then have further highlighting done by hand to brighten and tidy the model(s) up. I think that this approach looks by far the best when dipping, and the dipping part still saves you loads of time and work. This also seems to be part of the philosopher around the GW washes that are so popular.

Also, models can be sloppily "painted" with dip, and don't have to be dunked in whole. This is usually a less messy and more economical method, but I'll grant the results can be a bit different. Both take about the same time once you factor in shaking the dunked models into the equation.

Because of the two points above, colours other than brown and black are useful. For example, I have seen French Nappies done in blue/white, dipped in a custom Paynes Grey dip, and then detailed afterwards to finish them. I think 6-10mm scale early-war German armour and troops would look good with Paynes grey too.

If you are dipping less historical stuff, you can use other colours too. For example, spray undercoat white/ivory for some LotR undead and then dip in a green to get a ghostly look. A soft green dip could be a good shader for somthing mostly red (like a Blood Angels Space Marine), followed by a quick tidy-up with red again on the bigger areas. Orangey-yellows look good with a soft warm purple/magenta dip.

But anyway, that's why it's worth having a few tests first! 8)

@ Jimbibbly:

 lol

Title: Re: A question about dip
Post by: 6milPhil on December 06, 2012, 02:22:38 PM

I've used Wilkinsons own brand woodstain as an alternative to AP dip, and it's fine, variety of colours and about two and a half quid a tin.

Title: Re: A question about dip
Post by: Vonkluge on December 06, 2012, 06:45:21 PM

Yes, trying to debate this type of subject is so impossible but sometimes fun and informative  lol Since we all use the stuff under different conditions and purpose comparisons are tough. Its not like we are a bunch of scientist doing controlled experiments and arriving at conclusions that are definite! I and a friend did a couple dipping sessions with "Minwax" dip, one was on a old 15mm American Civil War army the other was on some 28mm Russians from turn of the century. The ACW troops turned out fine, the 28mm way two dark and the dip did not suck into the crevasses very well but splotched over the whole surface a bit? What was the difference? Air temp? Humidity? Age of product? What paint was used on the minis being dipped? were they coated with a clear? Matt? was that coating water based or Lacquer based? Lots of Variables! When you take this type of stuff into consideration and the compound it by spreading ti among half a dozen people on different continents using different process and even brands no wonder there are different results... o_o but we all learn in exchanging the thoughts and experiences we have.

I mentioned the cost of army painter since I was one of those who for a long time THOUGHT it was overpriced and bad mouthed it. Then I decided to try it and be fair (I had seen some pretty nice results on others army's) before I continued bashing it, I was so surprised I bought a second shade.  (I have light and Medium)

I too do not consider dipping as the last step on many project but I would say that once "dipped" the painting process becomes different with paint, and the paint process changing because the dip forms a coating on the surface that affect the way following paint layers and or washes lay down.

The biggest problem I have nowadays is remembering the process and materials I used to create a look ten months later ??? One of the best things I ever did was start a painting log, just a note book where I write down the paints used, the process and order followed to do the mini or army. Its great when 2 years later you get back into a period and want to do some more matching troops but don't remember exactly what you did for the first ones! I just have to remember to open the book and write it! >:(

(http://www.historicalhobbies.com/images/HHjpgs/ArabD1.jpg)

Title: Re: A question about dip
Post by: Major_Gilbear on December 07, 2012, 08:50:38 AM

Quote from: Vonkluge on December 06, 2012, 06:45:21 PM

I too do not consider dipping as the last step on many project but I would say that once "dipped" the painting process becomes different with paint, and the paint process changing because the dip forms a coating on the surface that affect the way following paint layers and or washes lay down.

Ah! Good tip I got from somewhere a long time ago (and it may not have even been dip-related) was to spray the model with Testor's Dullcote after the dip was dry. This not only mattes the surface (easier to see what you're doing of the model isn't glossy), but also adds adds back the "tooth" that helps the paint stay where you put it instead of pearling - just like when the model was primer-sprayed to begin with. Afterwards, you can re-varnish/Dullcote/whatever you usually do again.

Title: Re: A question about dip
Post by: Vonkluge on December 07, 2012, 06:20:40 PM

You are absolutely right Major G! I have done that (with varying degrees of success...) in the past, I fact I think I wrote about it in a post here related to finish coating minis. I use that process when doing any minis involving the use of decals, WWII, Victorian Sci Fi, Future wars.... Then I will paint the model to almost completion with out much weathering or aging, gloss coat it, apply decals, gloss coat again, then matt spray or semi gloss depending on proper finish required, then weather age so the decal will appear as painted and the weathering match. If you weather before applying decal it will look added on. I sometime the shoot a bit more gloss on and matt again. Sounds hard but I have a very large shop with a permanent Air Brush set up so it takes only minutes. I work on multiple projects so while one drys the other gets a bit of work done to it.

You can see and example of this decal process in the picture below and in my other post here, the Arabic lettering is indeed a decal made by me with a ALPS thermal wax printer (one of the only printers able to print white!) The saying is something like "The Breath of Allah" I made it up and used a translator to produce the correct Arabic letters then using Corel draw produced the decal.

This was done for may British airship. You can see that the ship has an almost pebbled finish, something I like for Victorian age Iron and steel work. It is hard to decal but using the gloss coat/ decal/ gloss coat approach you can see it is indistinguishable from the rest of the painted surface. Decal edges disappear! Remember too that this picture is over 50% larger than the real 28mm item.

(http://www.historicalhobbies.com/minis/Decal1.jpg)