Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => Future Wars => Topic started by: Achilles on 24 December 2012, 12:31:46 AM
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Got the notice this past week that the Biohazard kits arrived in North America.
I kicked in for the Biohazard support of the Sedition Wars kickstarter (even though I've already got metal versions of the characters). I playtested the Beta a bit and it's a fun-fast horror crawl in the vein of Dead Space or Alien.
I also decided to kick in for the Not-Serenity crew, the Not-Isaac Clark, Terrain and a large suit.
Hopefully splitting painting the good guys and badguys will take up most of my January.
Anyone else looking forward to getting this?
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Certainly am although I have no idea what it is the pack any more!
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From what I can tell it's plastic versions of the original Characters, additional Vanguard troopers, all the basic strain x3, two of the large strain, two of the big 'dog' strain and then all the game guts. :)
Plus the unlocks. Who knows...all I know is I'm getting a big box of plastics to play with! :D
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Sure am.
Although I'm not too keen on those Strain figures, I decided to back it up after seeing the introduction video. Not so much for the figs, but for the game in itself as it looks real fun to play.
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Looking forward to it too, but I can't remember all the extras I plumped for either!
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I didn't realize the biohazard shipment arrived, the 'official' news said the main game arrived and they were still waiting on the biohazard extras which were in a different container.
I wish CMON or Studio McVey would get better at updates.
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Biohazard is in two parts Jan and Mar:
JAN:
Game Box set. (including Kara, Ashoka, Morgan, and BarkerZosa)
Signed Print
Vanguard Patch
Resin Kara figure in game scale with data card
Custom Dice (3 of strain and 3 of vanguard style)
12 more assorted vanguard
1 extra vanguard drone tank
12 Stage 1 and 2 Strain
2 extra strain scythe witches
2 extra strain brimstone
1 extra strain Grendlr
1 extra strain Cthonian
Quarantine Campaign (downloadable PDF)
(Jan is also when extra map tiles, extra custom dice, the lights out GITD and clear figures, ship, not sure about the foam cases)
MAR :
6 baby AI drones
6 strain bone crabs
Cyber Ashoka
Keegan Kor
Jada "Iron" Lilly THI pilot
Morgan in Hellfire suit
Kara in Gnosis armor
Barker Zosa in Aphid Armor
How to paint Sedition Wars DVD from the McVeys
Vokker Dargu (added in as apology for shipment delay)
(MAR is also when extras like 3D terrain, THI suits, the Calamity Crew, Dr. Hexen, De. Ridley, Ramirez, and Niven banks ship)
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Still looking forward to these turning up.
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I'm still miffed that this kick starter hit when I was extremely broke...I would have enjoyed all the extra goodies!
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When is the main set out for general release for those who missed Kickstarter and how much is it selling for in the UK?
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Given the KS stuff should start shipping to Europe on Jan 4 (estimated at this time obviously), the shops in the UK might get theirs any day after that -- or who knows, even before even tho it's supposed to be exceedingly bad form to give stuff to retailers before KS contributors are send theirs.
No idea how much it's going to retail for.
And as for the OP question, yes damn straight I'm looking forward to this and would like to add that it's about the bloody time when they do get around to delivering too!
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My experiences with Kickstarter have left me with a rule of patience. Almost every Kickstarter I've ever backed (from Biolite Backpacking stoves to this) have come in a bit late.
It's the nature of a start up business to not REALLY be able to predict how and when they'll be able to accomplish a start up project. I'm just happy the products get made!
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As much as I would have liked to get my BioHazard set for Christmas, I'm with Achilles; lead-times are optimistic guess-timates. As weirdly worded as the last update was, I appreciate the communication. I'm still glad I backed it and am looking forward to a box full of figs and extras.
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As weirdly worded as the last update was, I appreciate the communication
Right, the main point looks to have been that I didn't remember the date quite correctly (no surprise there) and Jan 4 is actually the assumed arrival date of stuff in Europe. The actual shipping date to customers would then be sometime on the week starting with Jan 7. Presumably UK retailers would be getting their basic box sets from the same shipment but might not, I don't think it's been disclosed to the unwashed masses.
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I am waiting for the update we'll get the first or second week in Feb stating there was a delay and nothing has shipped yet, but that they expect to have it fixed 'shortly'.
We'll only see that update after many backers have posted on the project site and various forums asking about when the product shipped and when they should be expecting their stuff to arrive. As they do this a small group of backers will call them 'entitled whiners' or something similar for having the gumption to wonder why nothing has been delivered even though the last update said shipping should commence on or about 7 Jan.
CMON, as part of the update will state that they did not tell us sooner because they did not want to cause a panic and let us know there was a delay until they had more info.
;)
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I am waiting for the update we'll get the first or second week in Feb stating there was a delay and nothing has shipped yet, but that they expect to have it fixed 'shortly'
Looks like you were on a right track as far as Europe is concerned. No containers of stuff back here in the old world on Jan 4th so there's still going to be at least some waiting done.
On the plus side, they are now very very confident that USA will start getting theirs starting tomorrow instead of in February:We're sorting out the shipping assembly line now, and will have batch uploads of tracking info starting next Tuesday and expect to have all USA and rest of the world shipped out next week. [...] For European backers, the containers have not yet hit and we'll continue to monitor it, but expect them next week
(this from the status e-mail dated Jan 4)
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The UK stuff has also arrived, lates update (today) from McVey says:
The good news is - the shipment arrived last week, and is currently sitting in the UK warehouse ready to be shipped out to backers. They are just waiting for the custom shipping boxes to arrive (which is imminent) and will start shipping out orders any time now.
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Ooh, nice 8)
I've only got some spam for Kingdom Death on the mail so didn't know that...
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Yeah, I didn't appreciate the KoD spam. It's great they're pals and all, and Mike McVey contributed a fig, but I'd like to know where my stuff is.
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It was posted in their forums. I wouldn't mind to have mine on the doorstep either. 8)
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The same announcement about UK dispatch was in the mail as well. Nothing new as such tho.
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Yeah, I didn't appreciate the KoD spam. It's great they're pals and all, and Mike McVey contributed a fig, but I'd like to know where my stuff is.
Me neither, hardly an update. :? Apparently packing materials were required to send the sets out... who'd a thought it? ;)
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I'm still trying to be patient with a few of the Kickstarter projects that I backed, but honestly I think that I've been a little spoiled by the Mantic folks with their Dreadball one. Their communication and speed (even with the delays they hit) were great.
That said, I'm still quite looking forward to the game as well as all the lovely new toys. Whenever it finally arrives.
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According to the latest as of last Friday, the UK end received the requisite packaging and... are waiting for the resin spec ed Kara to be released from the customs so they can pack it in with the rest of the stuff! It's starting to look like one of those cases of "there's always something"... o_o
Meanwhile US packing had reached roughly the half point on Friday and some people have received their sets. So it looks like it's actually happening, folks -- well, if you are over on the other side of the pond that is!
http://studiomcvey.com/forums/index.php?/topic/654-the-shipping-received-game-contents-review-and-discussion-thread/page__view__findpost__p__10029
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Might just be a fault of experience. I solely hope that I won't have to go through this in March when my Bones arrives...
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The latest is that they are shipping from UK too now. Apparently they decided to go for a little customer goodwill and will send the Karas separately when they can pry them out of the British Customs. Good for them, IMCO.
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Just got a mail from CMON that my copy is on its way :) and that it's shipped with USPS ???
I'm in Europe goddammit.
Could some other European pledgers confirm they got the same message ?
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Got mine this morning. ;D
Loads of miniatures gaming goodness. I've got to wait 'til the weekend to sort it all out. Between this and the present backlog, I won't need to buy any more figs for at least 12 months.
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Got mine this morning. ;D
Between this and the present backlog, I won't need to buy any more figs for at least 12 months.
hear, hear lol
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Between this and the present backlog, I won't need to buy any more figs for at least 12 months.
I can't see that stopping you :D
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Just got a mail from CMON that my copy is on its way :) and that it's shipped with USPS ???
I'm in Europe goddammit.
Could some other European pledgers confirm they got the same message ?
OK, just got a reply, apparently the mail should read UPS not USPS :D
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I just tracked my package and it should be waiting for me at my local Post Office!
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Mine's in Brussels, so with luck it'll arrive tomorrow or friday ;D
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I can't see that stopping you :D
Except for my birthday. Of course. ;)
I mean there's another LAM PA release coming, right?
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I'm still waiting for a tracking number.
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Could some other European pledgers confirm they got the same message ?
Got mine. Can't be sure if it's B4A stuff in the parcel yet or Mike McVey's dirty socks of course :P
Another thing is that UPS seem a bit of an overkill, given their estimated delivery date on next Tuesday. Normal registered mail would be here in the same timeframe. Much faster if it was send from France but of course we are talking about Royal Mail 8)
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Royal Fail 8)
Fixed that for you! ;)
I also have a missed parcel this week to collect, but no idea if it's BfA or something else. Given the timing, it could well be!
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Oh dear, looks like SM/CMON made a bit of a mistake... again. If I got the "small print" of their latest "mea culpa" e-mail correct they wanted the UK backers (which they seem to use interchangeably with "European backers") to get their stuff on the first served basis, but due to a mix-up in the UK end the parcels designated for UPS delivery (which includes stuff to be shipped to the non-European countries like Finland :P) got handled first instead. UK-designated stuff is apparently only expected to start to moving today.
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Well, at least they did say that they had the warehouse hire on another worker to help expedite the UK packages.
BTW, stopped by my Post Office box last night and there was a box of Sedition Wars waiting for me.
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I'm still waiting for a tracking number.
Me too. Looking back through my email this morning I never actually received a link or any info about their (yet another f-ing) custom pledge manager. I've sent email to try to sort it out, but I've resigned myself to the fact that this will likely add another delay to the many so far.
At this point I'm thinking the game better be pretty damned amazing...whenever it finally shows up.
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I'm still waiting for a tracking number.
Same here. Trying to stay patient while SW boxes are popping up at post offices around the globe... :?
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I got my tracking number today. it says I should get my stuff on Saturday. It's in Houston right now, about 180 miles away from me.
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A club member got his box yesterday. as he lives only 20 km away, I'm hoping mine will arrive today.
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Mine was logged to be somewhere in Germany last night.
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Thankfully I got a reply about mine and all is in order. Don't know when I'll get it but at least I don't have to worry about it for the time being.
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got mine...
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Mine left Exeter this am. If it makes it through the snow, supposed to be with me today.
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Mine arrived 20 minutes ago. I'm sitting surrounded by piles of cardboard and plastic wrapping, looking at all the lovely minis.
There are a LOT of lovely minis... next week's evenings will pretty much be spent washing and assembling them.
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UPS couldn't get through because of a few inches snow.... :-[
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Got it !
Apparently UPS tried to offer it yesterday, but my parents were out.
Today they received it and I just picked it up.
Now it's time for some unpacking ;D
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Havent even got a tracking number for mine as yet :(
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I was able to find a copy of the packing slip, but no tracking number either.
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Unboxed and everything seems to be there (well, except for the resin Kara, but that was mentioned in an update)
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Mine came in today. Haven't looked it over too closely yet. 2x Biohazard. Resin Kara looks good.
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I got mine too - I'm super stoked about the miniature quality too, especially as I have the "original" release sculpts. Really top notch stuff!
By only (minor) criticism is that there isn't a list of all the tokens in the game... So after punching them out and bagging them, I found two or three types that I simply didn't know what they were! I guess I'll work out what they are eventually. lol
Anyway, I also got the Opticamo and GitD models, am now only waiting for terrain and the various optional extras.
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South Eastern Coastal Georgia has a set now!
Woo Hoo!
Jake
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UPS made it through this am. No chance to have a good look yet. Hopefully later.
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I tried to stick a grendlr together today. CAG(Zap-a-gap) doesn't seem to be sticking at all. I may need to wash the pieces off. My only complaint so fair is that some of them seem to have been cut off of their runners by a maniac. A few have warped pieces that I'll have to try the hot water process on.
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My only complaint so fair is that some of them seem to have been cut off of their runners by a maniac.
That was my impression as well.
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By only (minor) criticism is that there isn't a list of all the tokens in the game... So after punching them out and bagging them, I found two or three types that I simply didn't know what they were! I guess I'll work out what they are eventually. lol
At a guess... Hurley's drones have their own cards with large blue symbols that correspond to different types. They're represented by tokens until we get the models in the next shipment.
Also, there's a token like a green sun - Override?
The plain Vanguard tokens - wound trackers?
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At a guess... Hurley's drones have their own cards with large blue symbols that correspond to different types. They're represented by tokens until we get the models in the next shipment.
Also, there's a token like a green sun - Override?
The plain Vanguard tokens - wound trackers?
Yeah, that lines up with what I figured out earlier today. The plain Vanguard tokens I thought were used for tracking the Tactical Points or whatever they're called (the points that the Vanguard player generates every turn and can save up /spend on various Tactics / special orders).
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Quality complaints are starting to mount, here's one unpleasant-sounding example:
http://theminiaturespage.com/boards/msg.mv?id=293193
Even officially, the plastic is susceptible to warping in "extreme" cold etc.
But then again, it wasn't too expensive 8)
My parcel was last logged leaving Denmark on Friday. At the rate it's moving (a country a day), it'll be hard pressed to get here by the ETA, which is to say tomorrow.
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My only comments so far is that kara's nose is a little flattened, I'd rather have cut the minis from the sprue myself, the drone's gun barrel needs heating and twisting and a simple construction sheet for the multi piece minis would have been helpful.
As I say only a really superficial look so far, will try to find some time for a more detailed check soon.
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Hmm, I kind of agree with a lot of the TMP criticisms, but I don't think any of them are that serious.
Sprues? Yes please. There are so many small, fiddly pieces that need washing and keeping track of individually, it's a real pain. Many of the bits are tiny, and would easily slip down a plughole (so keep 'em away from plugholes...).
My Grendlr needed reshaping in hot water as per the instruction video, and the Cthonians' legs were noticeably bent. In the end I assembled the figure, dipped only the legs in hot water, and straightened them so they made a good join with the base - just 30 seconds' work. The rest of the Strain went together pretty well, with only minor filling needed afterwards. The Quasimodo does need careful positioning to make sure its centre of gravity is actually over the base, but that's pretty obvious looking at the figure.
The Vanguard troops. Some pretty nasty mould lines on very fine detail, and the plastic-resin they use makes removing them cleanly a real pain in the backside. I had exactly the same complaint about Mantic's restic, and I really wish they had gone with injection styrene.
The fit of the shoulders on the male troopers and bare-headed females is very poor, and they all needed filling afterwards. The helmeted female troopers were, weirdly, just fine. I also only got one of the bare-head variants (but the correct number of figures, so no worries), and had to drop a line to CoolMiniOrNot's support e-mail to get a missing Reaver cannon sent out. Got a very prompt reply.
It's support@coolminiornot.com if you have any problems.
Glue-wise, I started using only superglue gel. After much swearing, I switched to "painting" them with the pen from Loctite's All-Plastic superglue. That made assembly much less hassle. The tiny wrists on the Akosha's sniper rifle were the only one that had me close to pounding the mini flat with a hammer.
The rest of the stuff is great - the rulebook is good, the tiles look fantastic (whinge - it's quite hard to see blocking walls on the tiles, and we could do with a description of which door type is which). Some of the stat cards have the back printed upside-down, which isn't really a problem unless you put them into multi-card holders.
The game itself looks good. I'm impressed with the range of options for even the basic troopers, and play looks, on a first read-through, to have some depth.
I spent the weekend assembling the figures, and to be honest there's nothing there that should daunt a mini modeller - you've seen every problem a hundred times before. But there's a lot of work there, and it can get frustrating. I feel for boardgamers who just want pretty models to put straight on the board.
The minis are ready for priming now, and they look pretty damn awesome assembled. Only a few more grey hairs to add to my collection... :)
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Not sure if I mentioned here after my last post, but I did indeed get a tracking confirmation a few days ago. I'm looking forward to it arriving, reported problems or no. Other than Dreadball I haven't been working on anything sci-fi or futuristic in quite a while, so it'll be a nice change from horrific scenery markers and pulpy heroes & villains.
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Well, all parts have been sorted and afterwards soaked/brushed in the sink.
The Grendlrs are a pain in the arse. The first one seems ok after the hot water treatment (sorta), the second needed another dip and now I'm under the impression it got deformed too much. the underside doesn't line up anymore (hopefuly it won't show that much once assembled).
There are also rather large gaps between the mouth and torso :?
There is flash, which shouldn't pose a problem, but on some places it's perpendicular to detail (e.g. muscle tissue)
For now I'm still rather content with my purchase, but I so hope the gnosis armor and thi suit won't suffer from the same problem.
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I think people should just ship stuff like that back en masse, instead of just accepting that they're receiving a quality-wise subpar product, i.e. not what they paid for.
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Hmm, it seems I got luckier than some on the figures! :?
In my set, the figures were all somewhat greasy and will need a lot of scrubbing before I think they'll take and hold paint properly. No biggie, but it's extra work to be aware of.
Mouldlines seemed fine generally (nothing too bad anyway), and I got mostly lucky on how well the parts were clipped from the sprue - again, nothing too bad there that I've spotted so far. Details seemed to be very good for plastic figures, although these are just not on the same scale of quality and components-ingenuity as the GW big-boxes like IoB, SH or DV (but then, what is?). That said, there are remarkably few undercut issues for these figures (considering they are plastic), and they are all in relatively few components too, which is excellent! They compare favourably with the metals too, and I'll try and get some comparison pix up if people are interested?
I also seem to have been lucky with the fit of the parts and warping. None of my figures were noticeably warped, and all the parts seemed to have a good tight fit (although a few parts will need cleaning up to get the best fit).
I also got the Opticamo and GitD sets. The Gitd set was fine, although the comments on fitting and sprue marks are much more important here as you can't putty the models in the usual manner. The Opticamo was disappointing - they were all pretty much frosted in appearance rather than clear. I might be able to polish them, but I feel that they could have been made in a more "clear" plastic (or factory-polished perhaps if it is a mould and not material issue). Same comments regarding the fit of the parts and cleaning up mould lines applies as per the GitD models. They are cool figures, and I'm sure I'll make them work, but I do feel a little buyer's regret with these as it is very obvious indeed that they are going to be a lot of work.
The boards all seemed fine to me and were well printed. The card is thick and rigid, but looking at the edges I can see why some people's may have split apart. I plan on sealing the edges of my boards with glue/paint and some varnish. I did this years ago with Warhammer Quest and it really prolonged the life of the components. I don't think they are worse than most board games though.
The tokens... I have mixed feelings about; specifically, I feel that some of the designs are a bit too abstract and are therefore not very clear. I got an extra boards set, and therefore got two lots of tokens; one set was fine, the other set was quite badly off-centre. I also feel that the tokens should have been labelled on the sheets (so that you know what they are) as there was lots of space to do so. Also the die-cutting on the tokens could have been better, as I had to trim every token with an Xacto knife after punching them out.
The dice were all fine, although stronger colours would have been preferred for visibility reasons given the white text. The pale colours are fine if you play on a black surface though, as then the white pips/logos stand out well.
The cards... No idea why they were a different size (reminds me of the QA issues that Fantasy Flight had with a number of their games' cards). Shouldn't be a big issue though as they are (1) not meant to be shuffled AFAIK, and (b) supposed to go into protector sleeves so that they can be marked with a pen.
The rulebooks was very nice. No token almanac was a shame, and should have either been added the the start or added in "chunks" to each relevant section. The rules mostly did the latter, but a number of tokens are left unidentified and it's up to you to work out which are which. I also think that a stronger/more durable cover would have been beneficial. I'll comment on the rules later when I have read them properly and played a game or two.
An assembly guide would have been helpful, and could have even been included on one of the box's side panels instead of the repeating text. Minor nitpick, but a few parts took me a good few minutes to figure out.
Finally, the bases. I love that they included a variety of sculpted bases with clip-on parts. However, some of the bases I received were very softly cast detail-wise and look a bit blobby. Also, a number of the bases (and the coloured clip-on parts) don't clip together properly with each other. I am also concerned that they are going to be hard to weight, and that some of the bigger Strain models don't fit on their intended bases.
So in conclusion then:
1) The game is a board game with miniatures rather than board game models, and that means the models in it should be treated as such. I suspect that many people who are more boardgamers than tabletop gamers are going to struggle a bit with this.
2) The teeny-tiny parts should have been left on small sprue frames so that they can be cleaned and assembled safely and easily.
3) The tokens need labelling and better QA.
4) The bases need better QA
5) The boards and rulebook are fine, although the rulebook cover could be a bit more durable.
6) The Opticamo and GitD figures are fun and cool, but need serious quality improvement (especially as they are Limited Edition).
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I will also comment briefly on the painting DVD that the McVeys are due to produce for the game. Namely, there are a lot of non-miniature gamers who are asking for the DVD to cover techniques like washing and drybrushing and so on. However, I would be *massively* disappointed if the DVD doesn't cover a fully detailed and in-depth paint-along for each miniature type in the game to a studio display level. Why? Because tutorials for basic techniques are widely described in detail all over the web are are easy painting methods to try without much prior painting experience. And so therefore, what is valuable here is not the same basic stuff rehashed again, but rather the opportunity to paint along (and learn how to paint well) with the McVeys. I think that it would be a totally wasted opportunity for the McVeys to produce a DVD on washes and drybrushing rather than a paint-along master class.
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Rounding out my wall-o-text, I thought I'd reply to this:
I think people should just ship stuff like that back en masse, instead of just accepting that they're receiving a quality-wise subpar product, i.e. not what they paid for.
Whilst I do agree with the sentiment somewhat, I have to say that this is a KS project and not a commercial product purchase... And that changes the perspective a bit.
The subtle difference here is that without backers, there'd be no product, and that sending the product back won't resolve any of the issues. Furthermore, whilst quality control has obviously slipped in some areas, the overall product is still good value and well-produced generally. If this was a regular boardgame that folks had purchased, I doubt that many of these "issues" would be discussed in this way. However, the KS element has led many (myself included) to emotionally invest in the product much more than would otherwise be the case, and has led to some very critical assessments as a result. I don't see this level of comment or scrutiny being levelled at games like Horus Heresy or Twilight Imperium for example, and games like Agricola have some pretty fucking awful meeples too (why can't they supply some better-looking ones? There are lots out there that you can buy separately, and it is already an expensive game to buy).
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and I'll try and get some comparison pix up if people are interested?
Yes please,i didn't backed this (cos it's just another Sci-fi Game :-X) but i would like to see some Scale Pix,esp.the Strain Guys ;D
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Whilst I do agree with the sentiment somewhat, I have to say that this is a KS project and not a commercial product purchase... And that changes the perspective a bit.
The subtle difference here is that without backers, there'd be no product, and that sending the product back won't resolve any of the issues. Furthermore, whilst quality control has obviously slipped in some areas, the overall product is still good value and well-produced generally. If this was a regular boardgame that folks had purchased, I doubt that many of these "issues" would be discussed in this way. However, the KS element has led many (myself included) to emotionally invest in the product much more than would otherwise be the case, and has led to some very critical assessments as a result. I don't see this level of comment or scrutiny being levelled at games like Horus Heresy or Twilight Imperium for example, and games like Agricola have some pretty fucking awful meeples too (why can't they supply some better-looking ones? There are lots out there that you can buy separately, and it is already an expensive game to buy).
Some good points there, although I disagree about the Kickstarter/commercial product thing: it's an existing company that's producing the stuff, and they got a whopping million (or something to that effect) from the backers to do it. So, we're not exactly talking about a wobbly start-up company here. I don't know about the income levels of people here, but if I were splashing hundreds of dollars on minis in one go, I'd definitely be expecting top notch stuff. If anything, the emotional investment should warrant an even better quality product than usual - otherwise the Kickstarter starts to look awfully lot like simply a glorified pre-order system instead of actually reaching out to the customers.
Another point is that while Sedition Wars is indeed a boardgame, it has definitely been marketed with the miniatures and aimed at the miniatures crowd. They're not just gaming tokens, like those in Horus Heresy, Twilight Imperium or Agricola. I can accept mould lines in my chess pieces, but I'm not out to paint those :D
I'm thinking that this might be or become something of a problem with these large Kickstarters. A lot of people will be jumping in, a lot of money will change hands and the backers will be eager to receive their product. This will doubtlessly push the manufacturer to hurry with shipping, taking time away from quality control etc. It seems Reaper isn't falling into this trap, as they not only have their infrastructure for the Bones minis in place, but are taking their time to deliver a quality product.
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Some good points there, although I disagree about the Kickstarter/commercial product thing: it's an existing company that's producing the stuff, and they got a whopping million (or something to that effect) from the backers to do it.
It is a lot of money, but that figure raised does include items like shipping which had to be included in the pledges. Also, the main benefit was to set the range of models and the boardgame production up rather than make profit directly. Also, KS snips 5% of the final pledge amount for self too... It all adds up.
So, we're not exactly talking about a wobbly start-up company here. I don't know about the income levels of people here, but if I were splashing hundreds of dollars on minis in one go, I'd definitely be expecting top notch stuff. If anything, the emotional investment should warrant an even better quality product than usual
Actually, just because they are an existing company with a well-known face and expensive models, it doesn't mean that they are rolling in money or have huge production facilities. In fact, I suspect that their production capabilities are negligible, and that's what the KS was intended to help fund. In other words, the boardgame was really intended to launch a line of miniatures, and the KS was to launch the boardgame.
Kickstarter starts to look awfully lot like simply a glorified pre-order system instead of actually reaching out to the customers.
Well, it kinda is!
Another point is that while Sedition Wars is indeed a boardgame, it has definitely been marketed with the miniatures and aimed at the miniatures crowd. They're not just gaming tokens, like those in Horus Heresy, Twilight Imperium or Agricola. I can accept mould lines in my chess pieces, but I'm not out to paint those :D
Very true. As I mentioned above, the boardgame is really intended to launch a line of miniatures, not the other way around. Also, given Mike McVey's pedigree and the circles he's known in, appealing to wargamers is a fairly obvious move.
I'm thinking that this might be or become something of a problem with these large Kickstarters. A lot of people will be jumping in, a lot of money will change hands and the backers will be eager to receive their product. This will doubtlessly push the manufacturer to hurry with shipping, taking time away from quality control etc.
I agree that rushing is an issue. I also think it highlights how much work projects like this can involve and the time it takes from plans to production. Now imagine if games like BfA had to be funded out of profits accumulated from sales of other items - it'd take years to get something like this off the ground!
It seems Reaper isn't falling into this trap, as they not only have their infrastructure for the Bones minis in place, but are taking their time to deliver a quality product.
Reaper have a *huge* advantage over the likes of Studio McVey - namely that the models are pretty much all sculpted (they are mostly re-moulds of their metal figs lines) and that production facilities which they already have set up (as "Reaper Bones" is not new) are ready to go. Their KS is literally just paying the cost of the staff and moulds! They don't have any printing, out-of-house sculpting, rules-proofing, or other similar issues that SMcV have to launch. The Reaper KS was solely about expanding what they already had set up, and not about setting up or coordinating anything new.
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So, the ETA was correct after all as it looks like UPS has tried to deliver my parcel.
However, "surprisingly" I wasn't at home to receive it during office hours. And as the e-mail I received to that effect didn't contain the InfoNotice number, now I have to handle the delivery change from home over a slow connection instead of a fast one from the office. Assuming they left the InfoNotice number there and decided not to bother with such -- they might expect I'll sit around all day tomorrow waiting for a box full of toy soldiers. As if.
Ah well, UPS is meant for delivering goods from company to company so this is hardly a surprise :`
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Details seemed to be very good for plastic figures, although these are just not on the same scale of quality and components-ingenuity as the GW big-boxes like IoB, SH or DV (but then, what is?).
i think that may be one of the problems - GW has really raised the bar in terms of plastic quality. Just comparing the terminator figures from Black Reach to those in Dark Vengeance shows how far they've come in even a few years.
As for the Sedition Wars figures, I love 'em, right down to the detail on the bases. I softened my initial post above, because although assembly was a bit of a pain, there were no showstoppers. There's honestly nothing that I'd ship back asking for a replacement.
I'm not a fan of plastic-resin - I've also encountered many of the problems I discussed above on Mantic's figures. I can see the advantage to smaller companies, but I'm really at the point where I'd think twice about buying more in the material.
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They compare favourably with the metals too, and I'll try and get some comparison pix up if people are interested?
Another request. Some people have commented on the shrinkage minis have apparently suffered, and I'd like to see if it's as bad as they say. I requested a thi suit from a backer, but if the plastic model gets noticeably smaller it would be useless for me. :'(
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I'd also like to see a comparison picture.
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Took these so you get an ideea of the size :
(http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd388/zizi666/IMG_4157.jpg)
(http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd388/zizi666/IMG_4158.jpg)
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And here are some pics of my assembly attempt (dryfitted, no glue yet)
torso of the first Grendlr :
(http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd388/zizi666/IMG_4160.jpg)
and here's the second one, with the displaced joint :
(http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd388/zizi666/IMG_4159.jpg)
this one also has a rather large gap between mouth and torso (probably because I also had to dip the mouth i hot water to get it to fit)
(http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd388/zizi666/IMG_4161.jpg)
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ugh,erm they dont look that fancy anymore,more like the usual "Boardgame Figs" :? :'(
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ugh,erm they dont look that fancy anymore,more like the usual "Boardgame Figs" :? :'(
Well, on the plus side, these photos enlarge even the smallest error. I admit seeing things on these pics I hadn' t even noticed before.
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I sure don't care for the cheapo plastic-pvc nonsense a lot of these companies are going to. It's a shame...
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UPS couldn't get through because of the snow on Friday .... so my box arrived today.
Going to unpack it tomorrow/Thursday.
I have the house to myself and can throw things around unpack things in peace. :D
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I still have yet to see mine >:(
It was supposed to be here today according to tracking...now there is no data...they sent it to Troutdale first, which is about 260 miles north of me...then shipped it to Kent Wa...another couple hundred miles north...from Fedex to the postal service? WTF? I'm not impressed or happy...
Travel History Help Hide
Date/Time Activity Location
- 1/18/2013 - Friday
12:00 pm
In transit
WHITE CITY, OR
12:31 am
Departed FedEx location
FEDEX SMARTPOST KENT, WA
12:00 am
Shipment information sent to U.S. Postal Service
- 1/17/2013 - Thursday
6:38 pm
Arrived at FedEx location
FEDEX SMARTPOST KENT, WA
8:13 am
Departed FedEx location
TROUTDALE, OR
- 1/16/2013 - Wednesday
2:52 pm
Arrived at FedEx location
TROUTDALE, OR
- 1/11/2013 - Friday
8:09 am
Departed FedEx location
KENNESAW, GA
1:05 am
Arrived at FedEx location
KENNESAW, GA
- 1/10/2013 - Thursday
11:13 pm
Left FedEx origin facility
NORCROSS, GA
9:01 pm
Arrived at FedEx location
NORCROSS, GA
12:00 am
Picked up
NORCROSS, GA
- 1/09/2013 - Wednesday
12:58 am
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At least you have tracking info...
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At least you have tracking info...
Yep, I feel your pain. I'm in Iowa, no tracking info either.
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ugh,erm they dont look that fancy anymore,more like the usual "Boardgame Figs" :? :'(
I though the same as you at first, but a coat of primer brings out the detail and makes them look a lot crisper.
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Detail looks quite decent enough for me, but granted I've still just seen pix on the 'net. Hopefully UPS will manage to deliver the parcel here to the office sometime today.
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ugh,erm they dont look that fancy anymore,more like the usual "Boardgame Figs" :? :'(
I though the same as you at first, but a coat of primer brings out the detail and makes them look a lot crisper.
I agree with Momotaro; I cede that the detail *is* softer (it was obviously always going to be...), but they are still very well detailed and pretty crisp. Honestly, waaaay more detail than pretty much any other boardgame figs, and clearly they are miniatures rather than board game pieces.
I will snap some pix tonight and upload them so that comparisons with the metals can be made.
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My big(ish) brown box has been delivered. UPS left it downstairs at the reception and only informed me of the arrival by e-mail but one supposes that's the standard procedure so I wont' complain too loudly -- about the delivery, that is. Will have to wait 'till evening to see what the parcel contains before starting to gripe about that, obvously :P
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Hm...I guess everyone has different opinions as to the quality. Fromt he photos I'd say that they're pretty nicely done. Of course the warped parts is an annoyance, but at least it can be remedied.
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I just had time to quickly look over the most visible elements of the game last night (of course I really should check the contents ASAP to see if I've gotten everything I should've but the P bit will likely only occur on Saturday)...
Some of the markers are indeed printed a little off-center, none so much as to push the pattern outside of the punching cuts tho IIRC.
The boards are a little dark and "dirty-looking" in tone but not so much that I would've thought it unintentional. Also, there was one that had a mildly frayed tip but nothing so bad that I'd expect them to start actually peeling right away and I detected no warping of the boards in the little time they were out of the box.
The rulebook didn't smell much at all. But then again, my sense of smell is pretty reduced during the winter months anyway, perhaps it's a good thing in this case as some reported overpowering smell of new ink even after a week out of the box o_o
But as none of those were really what I was after, well... What can I say? I got me a nice big box of minis 8)
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Mine arrived yesterday - I have only had a quick look as I have a chest infection that is throwing me completely...... as mentioned before the figures do not look how I imagined them......they certainly do not have the sharpness of detail that I signed up for.....it all looks professionally produced but I will need to get rid of this blasted constant headache before I can concentrate enough to look further...
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Assembled a trooper and a
grenadier Lancer last night. I estimate I spent about an hour per figure cleaning the flash and sculpting a decent surface to glue the arm to. :(
I started on a Lancer but now it seems the left hand on the gun part doesn't lign up with the left arm (some mm offset) which will probably mean another hot dip procedure. >:(
At this rate I'll probably loose interest in the game before I ever get the whole set assembled.
At least this experience tought me a couple of things :
1. the next one to bring out PVC minis can go F**k himself
2. I'll definitly think twice before pledging another miniatures kickstarter.
Granted Zombicide was a fantastic experience, Sedition Wars begins to look like a pain in the lower backside.
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The more I read about Sedition Wars and the plastic quality, the more I think this should be approached as purely a board game and not a miniatures game. A shame though, lovely miniatures but I hate restic. I have bucketloads of Warmachine restic, still waiting to be cleaned. The PVC is terrible material to clean. Files don't work well and knives don't work well either. Urgh.
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The more I read about Sedition Wars and the plastic quality, the more I think this should be approached as purely a board game and not a miniatures game. A shame though, lovely miniatures but I hate restic. I have bucketloads of Warmachine restic, still waiting to be cleaned. The PVC is terrible material to clean. Files don't work well and knives don't work well either. Urgh.
A lot of boardgamers don't posses the skills or the inclination to assemble the multipart figures. I feel for those that bought this.
As for your statements on the material, I can only concur. :?
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I noticed that I supplied some wrong information. The bad fit is on the lancer (female without helmet) and it isn't just one mini, I checked several and they all suffer from the same problem.
Just had a quick look at the grenadier and the Reaver and I recon they won't pose any problems re fitting parts.
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T
A lot of boardgamers don't posses the skills or the inclination to assemble the multipart figures. I feel for those that bought this.
As for your statements on the material, I can only concur. :?
This is a fair assessment, and is correct of DreadBall as well. In retrospect I suppose it's sort of interesting that they both seem to have been marketed as 'complete board games' but with a hobbyist component to them. I really don't see anyone who picks them up looking for a board game being a happy customer.
More back on topic...according the the status of my tracking number, canada post tried to deliver my box today. As I wasn't home at the time, I'll have to go pick it up tomorrow. Should be interesting!
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I for one am looking forward to find out how other member's fare with their box.
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I got mine a couple of days ago. I haven't had a chance to get the tools to them yet. Looks like a lot of work.
I got rid of Hybrid without putting those metal minis together, hopefully I will get a little further with this one...
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Mine came in today. I've had a chance to put together one of the Drones and a Grendlr. The Drone is relatively painless, and this first Grendlr doesn't have any major problems. I'll need to do a bit of greenstuffing around a leg, an arm, and the head, but nothing that gives me reason to regret my purchase so far.
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Still waiting but looking forward.
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Having seen some you-tube unboxing vids I am gutted I didn't have the cash at the time. The strain look really nice, I hope they release them eventually as boxed sets without being a rip off as I wouldn't mind getting hold of some for my projects.
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I checked the minis on Saturday. I have all that's been promised so far and only very minor problems with the components I didn't too much care about anyway (ref: boards etc.) so I'm pretty happy with my purchase at this point.
On the fit issue, obviously I didn't check all the models but I did check the Grendls: one of them has a pretty bad misalignements, but not in excess of some early WARMACHINE models for example. The other had only a very minor gap left between the torso and the mouth.
Also did a quick test at cleaning up a model and the problems with working the material seem a little overstated. Granted, there are a lot of quite fiddly bitz that may yet pose a real problem. I can understand that if you were expecting boardgame pieces (which, for obivous reasons, many were) you may not be as happy as I am, even before attempting to actually build some of the more component-rich models (Akosha in particular is in about a dozen micropieces).
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@ Everyone:
Guys, I'm sorry for the lack of comparison pix so far! I have taken some, but the shine of the metal and the grey of the plastic are very hard to photograph side-by-side (and I'm a terrible photographer anyway), so they don't really show much. I also live in a ground floor flat, and have to take pictures using only indoor lights at this time of year due to a lack of natural light - which doesn't help either. I have some more ideas though, and will try again tonight!
@ tnjrp:
It seems that your experience is similar to mine. The quality of the plastics is perfectly good, and whilst it may not be the very best I've ever seen, it pretty much exactly meets with my expectations.
My boards have already started scuffing around the corners though, and that's just from opening the box half a dozen times. I think that SMcV should have spent a bit more time/effort/money getting them right; sealing each board section like you would expect from a normal board game board would have been the obvious solution instead of leaving the cut edges as they have - it's not as if the boards interlock or anything either.
I also agree with some folks that the boards could/should have been a bit brighter (it just makes them easier to see!), and I think they still would have been moody enough. That's a minor nitpick though.
How were your tokens and such? Badly off-centre, or okay?
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If anyone is having trouble with gluing or cleaning up mouldlines, has anyone considered a solvent-weld adhesive? This is like Poly Cement that most people use for plastic models, but is much thinner and is DCM-based (usually, as far as I can tell). Many model hobbyists use the stuff already, and it will "stick" just about any plastic used in models by slightly dissolving the joined surfaces together.
Because the solvent weld is so thin (and is usually applied with a brush), I have also found it very useful in smoothing any roughness left on plastics after filing by just brushing it onto the surface areas affected. So, you *can* file "restic"/PVC models, and then brush on a little solvent weld to perfectly smooth the filed surface again.
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Guys, I'm sorry for the lack of comparison pix so far!
I was actually planning on taking some myself but I seem to have buried my "usual suspects" box somewhere deep in the latest reshuffle of miniatures stuff so I didn't have the models I wanted to shoot the B4A stuff along with at hand. I may have time to dig them out next weekend but can't promise I can be bothered...
How were your tokens and such? Badly off-centre, or okay?
Some of the tokens were printed off center but not by so much the pattern would fall outside of the punching cut. The boards also don't seem to align perfectly. Those would be rather minor quibbles for me, I'm really mostly in it for the minis 8)
Because the solvent weld is so thin (and is usually applied with a brush), I have also found it very useful in smoothing any roughness left on plastics after filing by just brushing it onto the surface areas affected. So, you *can* file "restic"/PVC models, and then brush on a little solvent weld to perfectly smooth the filed surface again
That's a good tip. I have to see if I can find any around these parts of the world.
Incidentally, I've been thinking of trying an all-plastic glue on these instead of superglue just to see if it'll stick. If not, then it's back to superglue without further ado.
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Incidentally, I've been thinking of trying an all-plastic glue on these instead of superglue just to see if it'll stick. If not, then it's back to superglue without further ado.
I think that all-plastic glue *is* the solvent weld? Something like this (http://www.modelhobbies.co.uk/shop/57ml-plastic-weld-cement-p-26493.html)? The bottle comes with a little brush applicator in the lid.
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The all-plastic glue I have doesn't come with a brush and looks like a regular plastic glue when it comes out of the tube...
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Ah, well this stuff's really thin. To use it, you hold the surfaces tightly together and then dab the joint with the stuff. It's so thin, it seeps into the contact points and joins them. It sticks just like polystyrene cement sticks Airfix/GW plastics.
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I've had that kind of stuff too once upon a time when I had the energy to build real miniatures instead of gaming pieces. I don't think I've ever thought of using it to smooth out filed plastic in the latter.
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I finally got my set yesterday.
After having a good look at it, I can only say that if I'd have seen the quality of the figs before I paid up, I wouldn't have bothered.
I also have the problems mentioned of misprinted counters, but as I couldn't give a shit about the game itself it doesn't bother me.
However the figs are all on the soft side and are a pain in the arse to clean up.
While they're are also a pain to clean up, the Zombiecide figs are better detailed IMHO.
I expected better from StudioMcvey to be honest.
No more spending on Kickstarter Vapourware for me. You can have my cash once I can see the quality of your product, not before.
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I finally got my set yesterday.
After having a good look at it, I can only say that if I'd have seen the quality of the figs before I paid up, I wouldn't have bothered.
I also have the problems mentioned of misprinted counters, but as I couldn't give a shit about the game itself it doesn't bother me.
However the figs are all on the soft side and are a pain in the arse to clean up.
While they're are also a pain to clean up, the Zombiecide figs are better detailed IMHO.
I expected better from StudioMcvey to be honest.
No more spending on Kickstarter Vapourware for me. You can have my cash once I can see the quality of your product, not before.
I've been cleaning some figs and yes, it is timeconsuming. Also I found that after priming (with white) I could more easily locate and remove those pieces of flash I overlooked.
Which means another coat of primer afterwards :-[
I'll have to paint some up before I can say the Zombicide are better detailed. What I find more important is the fact that I could start playing zombicide after unpacking. Sure, it was said that there would be some assembling necessary with Sedition wars, but I didn't count on it taking so much time (one friend who received his box and isn't that into painting just glued 'em without cleanning after seeing the quality)
As for Studio Mcvey, I think their sculpts are great. It's the casting that sucks and I don't know if that's their doing or CMON's :?
Nevertheless, I too will have a very long thinking session before joining in on another KS project.
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While it has nothing to do with the quality of the figures in my Sedition Wars box, I'm unlikely to be backing any mini-related crowd funding efforts for quite some time. I still have a mountain of stuff on the way (Reaper's stuff in March, Judge Dredd, Dreadball and way too much other stuff). Realistically I likely have way more figures than I can paint in the next 5 years. Of course I'm sure I'll still buy stuff in small amounts at me local shops or online...but the large volume, sight-unseen purchases are done for me. I simply can't handle the volume any more!
And my bank account will thank me I'm sure.
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I finally got my set yesterday.
After having a good look at it, I can only say that if I'd have seen the quality of the figs before I paid up, I wouldn't have bothered.
I also have the problems mentioned of misprinted counters, but as I couldn't give a shit about the game itself it doesn't bother me.
However the figs are all on the soft side and are a pain in the arse to clean up.
While they're are also a pain to clean up, the Zombiecide figs are better detailed IMHO.
I expected better from StudioMcvey to be honest.
No more spending on Kickstarter Vapourware for me. You can have my cash once I can see the quality of your product, not before.
I have to say I'm seriously tempted to request a refund for reasons stated above. :?
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I'm pleased with what I have. They are a unbearable to clean, but I've decided to not spend too much time on them. If they have a mold line or two, I'm not going to fret, as I think of them as just board game pieces.
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I was torn I didn't get in on this...but now I'm not so sad about it. Shame. So it's turned into just a "better than average" board game?
Shame. Such cool ideas in that kickstarter.
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Two guys at my club each bought a set, one of them bought the additional "glow in the dark" minis as well. I only took a brief look at the stuff, the plastic minis looked OK, the resin glow in the dark a bit less so. The real downer for me was the boards that were printed on thin cardstock that was warped to hell and looked abysmal. I don't know if it has to do with air humidity or something but a high quality game should have used thicker cardstock or another material for the boards...
From what I heard after they had tried it out they said the rules were fairly easy but compared to boardgames such as Descent 2nd edition in terms of special rules and stuff you can do.
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I was torn I didn't get in on this...but now I'm not so sad about it. Shame. So it's turned into just a "better than average" board game?
Shame. Such cool ideas in that kickstarter.
Opinions are mixed, and it seems that they are srtongly influenced by what various folks were expecting rather than by what they got (... I mean, more than usual!).
The cardstock issues are well-documented and for a board game, quite unforgivable IMO.
The boards could have been a bit brighter, especially so that you can see what you're doing if you turn the room lights down to a "soft" level for that full horror-game-feeling. The linen finish of the tiles is nice though.
The rulebook could also have been printed on something less flimsy, and a couple of cards from the deck with summaries for each faction would have been super-helpful.
The game itself seems fine mechanics-wise, though from looking at the forum there does appear to be a few tweaks/rules queries. Nothing new for most modern Armerican/FF-style games though.
Models-wise the game provides a lot, and they are very nice. Folks expecting figure quality along the lines of the McVey resins/metals however must be smoking something strong! Despite all the shirt-tearing love-professing plastic-lovers out there giving plastic figs the kind of promotion that might border on fanatical devotion, plastic figures have some pretty serious limitations in terms of sharpness, detail and undercuts. Since the majority of figures were always going to be 1 or 2-peice copies of the McVey resins, there was always going to be loss of detail and inappropriate and heavy mouldline issues. I think that given what they did, the models came out surprisingly well. I also think that the designs and sculpt proportions are great.
The opticamo models need a buff with a very mild abrasive as they come looking somewhat frosted. The GitD models are a bit disappointing - nothing really bad, but the plastic could have had more of a green tint or such so that they look less dull if you are not, you know, playing in the dark. (Which you wouldn't anyway, as you couldn't see anything on the board either). Both cool promotional gimmicks, and both fine for what they are despite my comments above.
So, to summarise then:
- The models are fine despite mouldline issues that you would normally expect.
- The plastic used for the models is not brilliant from a modelling perspective, but is more than fine for boardgame parts.
- The boardgame components look and feel cheap in quality. This is the biggest real disappointment for the cost of the boardgame.
- Those expecting a boardgame are disappointed in the boardgame parts and the complexity/poor fit issues of the character models for both factions.
- Those expecting a model set that could be used for a board game are disappointed that the models are not better quality/more complex/more finely detailed/in a nicer plastic to work with.
- Those (like me) who wanted decent models at a fair price with a cool design that could also be used to play a reasonable boardgame seem to be both happy enough and in the minority. Also, this group (small as it is) is further split depending on the amount of flash/mouldines/board warping that they got in their sets.
Is it worth it? In my opinion, yes, but know what you're getting and have realistic expectations. Given the hype, this may be hard though.
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I received my Biohazard set last week and spent a few hours cleaning and assembling about 20 of the models that came with it. As someone with only minimal interest in the boardgame-I mostly joined this kickstarter for the models, which I intend to use with other games-I am pretty happy. Yes, there are mold lines to be cleaned up, and they do take some time. Also, it seems to take more effort than usual to get the CA to stick to the plastic. Those gripes aside, I am pretty thrilled with what I got.
It seems that in general 28mm sci fi lines available have fallen behind the 15s in terms of offering human with a hard sci fi feeling, with Pig Iron and Hasslefree being the main notable exceptions in my book. That is one reason I am really happy with the Vanguard models. I have a platoon's worth of heavily armored human infantry that feels much more like something you would find in Stargrunt than in 40K, not even including all the cool character figures that came with. A number of those will do double duty in my Inquisimunda/ITEN/FUBAR retinues besides, as they are pretty characterful in my book.
The Strain models are okay. I am not as stoked about them as about the Vanguard, but as generic sci-fi zombies or additions to my Warzone Dark Legion or Inquisimunda Chaos models, they will do fine.
The boards, counters, cards, and rules seem okay, but as I am not sure I will ever even play the game as intended, I feel rather "meh" about them.
The bottom line for me is that this was a pretty good investment, and I am happy with what I received. Now I am looking forward intently to March and those sweet THI suits and more character figures!
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Went through my minis a couple of days ago and am missing a couple of bits....one arm and one grenade launcher....have emailed the kickstarter as instructed and will await response.......
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Went through my minis a couple of days ago and am missing a couple of bits....one arm and one grenade launcher....have emailed the kickstarter as instructed and will await response.......
You do know there's 1 vanguard samaritan body (hvy weapons that need the loose arm) and one trooper gun too much in the box ?
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It seems that in general 28mm sci fi lines available have fallen behind the 15s in terms of offering human with a hard sci fi feeling, with
Pig Iron and Hasslefree being the main notable exceptions in my book
To me, B4A stuff seems to inhabit the same realm of (aguably hardish) scifi as Governance of Technology, Infinity and MERCS and not the same "near future/gritty industrial" niche as (most) PI stuff and (some) Hasslefree.
OTOH in regards to the B4A box contents, I'll +1 to everything you said 8)
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You do know there's 1 vanguard samaritan body (hvy weapons that need the loose arm) and one trooper gun too much in the box ?
I didn't.......think I still need another grenade launcher though? I will await a reply anyway.........hope it doesn't take as long as the original shipping :D
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You should have 3 heavy weapon sprues, 2 in the box and one in the biohazard set. That's 3 Reaver weapons, 3 grenade launchers and 3 laser lances (or whatever these things are called).
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I didn't.......think I still need another grenade launcher though? I will await a reply anyway.........hope it doesn't take as long as the original shipping :D
Details of what should be in your box are here (http://studiomcvey.com/forums/index.php?/topic/649-battle-for-alabaster-miniatures/). ;)