Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => The Conflicts that came in from the Cold => Topic started by: Earther on 03 April 2013, 09:01:02 PM
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Just seen a thread on Steve Dean's site; Red Star are releasing a range of French paras for Indochina sculpted by Paul Hicks!
http://www.sdean-forum.co.uk/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=33964&p=384702#p384702
Oh happy day!! :D
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Excellent. :-* :-* :-*
At last, I too have been waiting a long time for these. Kinda handy for dropping on Suez or the early part of the Algerian War too. Would be nice if they expanded to cover the later bits. Look forward to their Vietminh.
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About bloody time. ::)
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We need to clone Paul Hicks!!!!! :o
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That is just great! :D
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We need to clone Paul Hicks!!!!! :o
Are you suggesting he hasn't already been cloned?
How else can is he turning out (lovely) figures at such a rate?
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Now we need some figers to represent the UN and communist forces for the Korean war. Then all bets are off for world war 3, 1950s.
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:-* :-* :-*
Beautiful models, but I do not want to be distracted by more shiny, shiny.
Hopefully will not be at SALUTE as I might just waver.
Have read a fair bit about this conflict and have always been fascinated by the French military thanks to Heller kits.
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Please someone Clone me please o_o
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Please someone Clone me please o_o
We have the technology. We can remake you. Stronger, faster. You are, the Million Dollar Hicks!
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Oh, no not another period I have to invest in ;)
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oh my god :o
and with separate heads.....
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I really shouldn't be getting so excited about these, I already have a bucket load of the excellent Eureka 15mm versions, most unpainted, plus a goodly selection of guns, tanks trucks etc...........
but it's so hard not to. :D Fortunately something else, very dear to my heart is about to appear in the next couple of weeks, so I'll be able to wait for the release of these.
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Oh and guys, if you are listening, some head variants in Bigeard caps and berets would be nice for those of us who want to fight Algeria.
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Paul Hicks "The Sculptor who never sleeps"... nice tag line that. lol
Well... words can not adequately convey my feelings about this range, although I have to ask where are the Anthony Quinn and Alain Delon look-a-likes?
;)
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Oh and guys, if you are listening, some head variants in Bigeard caps and berets would be nice for those of us who want to fight Algeria.
Berets loose heads from Empress (Hicks) SCW range?
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Berets loose heads from Empress (Hicks) SCW range?
Nope.
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Hi Guys & Gals :D
We are hoping, emphasis on the hoping, to have stock of these fantastic figures at Salute. :o
Its in the hands of the Red Star guys at the moment.
See you there. ;)
Paul
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Hi guys,
Thanks for all your nice comments and support. It has been a long journey to get there but I must say that it was definitively worth the wait :D
We will of course make other heads in the future, firstly with Bush hats, then with the Para cap (Bigeard style)...
We will also make a figure of Bigeard himself, but first we will take a look at these sly commies >:D
We are planning more support, like the recoilless gun and ultimately we want to expand the range toward Algeria...
But first let us say a BIG BIG thanks to Paul for all his wonderful work and for saving our project :-*
Christian from Red Star Miniatures
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I need a miniature of Ho Chi Minh. :)
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These are very nice indeed.
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I hate Mr Hicks...
Wonderful figures, for a period I like a lot. I would like to see, also, tank and amtrack crews to use with the Stuarts and LVT´s there were in this conflict.
A fantastic news!!!
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We will of course make other heads in the future, firstly with Bush hats, then with the Para cap (Bigeard style)...
Bush hats? Yes, please! :-*
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If I get to Salute, these are definitely on my MUST HAVE list.
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Vietnamese in French service (or more correctly Vietnamese service) too? :?
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Vietnamese in French service (or more correctly Vietnamese service) too? :?
Have you been reading 'War in Peace' too? lol
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Will you be selling the heads separately like you have with your Chechnya range? I could see myself buying bush hats for conversions.
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I see a big hole in my wallet. :o
Great looking figures.
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Have you been reading 'War in Peace' too? lol
Gosh, that takes me back... you're talking about the 80's era part-work right? :o
But no, it's just one of my bugbears... nobody seems to like to add Vietnamese to a range, other than (grudgingly) the compulsory opposition. Even if the odd token pack is added, they are usually as tall as the Europeans in any case.
Ironically, in the wargaming world there's no love for the 'little people' apparently... ;)
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Oh yes, they will be mine!
And while we're on the topic of headgear, how about some kepi's for the Legion?
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Legion? What Legion? ;)
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Will you be selling the heads separately like you have with your Chechnya range? I could see myself buying bush hats for conversions.
Yes the heads will be sale separately
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But no, it's just one of my bugbears... nobody seems to like to add Vietnamese to a range, other than (grudgingly) the compulsory opposition. Even if the odd token pack is added, they are usually as tall as the Europeans in any case.
Ironically, in the wargaming world there's no love for the 'little people' apparently... ;)
Agreed. Given that anywhere between a quarter to half of the average 'French' colonial battalions were Vietnamese, Laoation or Cambodian it would not be unreasonable to see some smaller figures with recognizable Asian features.
I suspect there's a fear that the punterartii will sneer and say 'hey there's inconsistent scale in this range. I remember when one of the best sculptors currently working had the audacity to put rapelling gloves on a range of moderns and was greeted by a chorus of 'ooh giant hands' by the usual range of mindless twats on Frothers.
Mr Hicks surely has enough street cred and broad enough shoulders to pull it off.
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I am all for smaller "Asian" troopers. Could be used for troopers from all over that region. And not to forget smaller under fed indigenous peasant types in other nations history's.
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Oh mon dieu!
Now this is worth a chorus of "Le Boudin"!
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Gosh, that takes me back... you're talking about the 80's era part-work right? :o
But no, it's just one of my bugbears... nobody seems to like to add Vietnamese to a range, other than (grudgingly) the compulsory opposition. Even if the odd token pack is added, they are usually as tall as the Europeans in any case.
Ironically, in the wargaming world there's no love for the 'little people' apparently... ;)
Yes, the very one! An excellent old magazine.
The issues covering Indo-China showed plenty of pictures of the Vietnamese in French service.
My question made more sense when I was really tired.
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Always Histoire & Collections for info on 1950's French uniforms.
http://livres.histoireetcollections.com/publication/2821/les-paras-francais-en-algerie-1954-1962.html
http://livres.histoireetcollections.com/publication/2403/paras-francais-en-indochine-1945-1954.html
http://militaria.histoireetcollections.com/publication/1487/militaria-240-juillet-2005.html
http://militaria.histoireetcollections.com/publication/1408/militaria-n-233-decembre-2004.html
http://militaria.histoireetcollections.com/publication/343/militaria-n-211-fevrier-2003.html
http://militaria.histoireetcollections.com/publication/1396/militaria-n-232-novembre-2004.html
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Cheers for the links Huevans. Seems that French reenactors are somewhat slimmer than their US counterparts.
If people are looking for organisational information, you will probably find thislink useful:
http://www.au.af.mil/au/awc/awcgate/army/cgsc_jackson.pdf
Post Indochina, all you need to know to organise your platoons
http://daniel.rabbe.free.fr/organisation/organisation.htm
For anyone planning to use the range for Algeria, then the following article will be of interest.
http://www.rand.org/content/dam/rand/pubs/monographs/2006/RAND_MG478-1.pdf
And the air support you will want for both Indochina and Algeria:
http://worldatwar.net/chandelle/v3/v3n1/frcoin.html
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I suspect there's a fear that the punterartii will sneer and say 'hey there's inconsistent scale in this range. I remember when one of the best sculptors currently working had the audacity to put rapelling gloves on a range of moderns and was greeted by a chorus of 'ooh giant hands' by the usual range of mindless twats on Frothers.
interesting, I remember an article in the eighties or so in Command Decision where a 20 mm range was being recommended especially because it was smaller and thus better suited to represent Asians. Then I took a break from the hobby for some years and then suddenly everyone was talking how lead dollies all should have the same height....
I am not sure if we have left this behind yet.
on another aspect - it appears that obesity is still underrepresented in sculpting ;)
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Thanks for the links gents. :)
I've found this site useful for organisation of the CEFEO and Viet Minh, along with other related stuff; http://members.multimania.co.uk/Indochine/cefeo/orgs.html
You might get a warning from your security system when trying to access it. The site itself is fine, but I wouldn't go clicking any of the adverts. However it is the only site I've found relating specifically to the CEFEO.
Part of the French Ministry of Defence site has a section with a somewhat similar style to that of the Imperial War Museum. These are the photos and videos related to Indochina; http://www.ecpad.fr/tag/fonds-guerre-dindochine
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Cheers for the links Huevans. Seems that French reenactors are somewhat slimmer than their US counterparts.
LOL - But probably not. IIRC, the models in H&C are actually models, not reenactors.
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Carlos, your links are interesting. But I wonder if paras would have had their own organization tables, dissimilar from ordinary infantry.
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So what rules will people be using for these? How could you modify say, FNG, to give it a French rather than an American flavor, or is the period basically just the same Vietnam War with a different skin and fewer weapons options? What motivates you to want to play this period rather than The US Vietnam war other than Paul's amazing sculpts? :)
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Carlos, your links are interesting. But I wonder if paras would have had their own organization tables, dissimilar from ordinary infantry.
At the battalion level, yes there were significant variations both in Indochina and Algeria. The Ospreys actually have reasonable organisation tables for both, the latter being enlarged, beefed up battalions restyled regiments.
At platoon level they were essentially the same, either using the Far East organisation of the infantry from the early 1950s onwards and then later, in Algeria, the Type 107 battalion organisation. In Indochina the weapons mix would probably have seen a slightly higher mix of SMGs tyhan with line infantry. By Algeria the division of the platoon into the half platoon of Fusiliers ( fire support) and the half platoon of Grenadiers-Voltiguers (assault) was pretty much universal.
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So what rules will people be using for these? How could you modify say, FNG, to give it a French rather than an American flavor, or is the period basically just the same Vietnam War with a different skin and fewer weapons options? What motivates you to want to play this period rather than The US Vietnam war other than Paul's amazing sculpts? :)
I am thinking about to use "Force on Force" with "Ambush Valley"/"Bush Wars" rules. In my opinion, it must be difficult for the French; a Vietnam war without a lot of automatic weapons, artillery assets, etc. but with all the cunning Viet Minh in front.
About the motivation, it is, in the first place, a book I read years ago about the Dien Bien Phu battle and, of course, the wonderful Paul Hicks´figures. :)
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But I wonder if paras would have had their own organization tables, dissimilar from ordinary infantry.
As I understand it, they had larger sections of 15 men, on paper at least, but given the manpower shortages the French faced, the paper organisation was a bit removed from reality in any case.
So what rules will people be using for these? How could you modify say, FNG, to give it a French rather than an American flavor, or is the period basically just the same Vietnam War with a different skin and fewer weapons options? What motivates you to want to play this period rather than The US Vietnam war other than Paul's amazing sculpts? :)
FNG works for some aspects, but the guerilla war phase was largely over by 1949. The Viet Minh were a conventional army, albeit lacking armour and air support, pretty much like the NVA and a world apart from the later VC. Any WW2 rules would work fine to my mind, with some allowance for recoilless weapons, or indeed Force on Force, or any other 'modern' rule set.
Juan's 'Cunning Viet Minh' I have my doubts about though, unless you count timing your second attack wave to coincide with the French being in the process of reloading, after mowing down the first wave. We have stereotypes of inept, but brave French and relentless hordes of fearless Viet Minh, but I suspect that both sides had a range of abilities and capabilities and after all the French didn't lose every battle.
As for motivation, there being no Americans is one... ;)
Seriously though, it's the even capabilities of the opposite forces, somewhat a case of quantity versus quality if you like, but without the overwhelming fire and air support of the later 'American' war. All the toys are also available, thanks to the popularity of WW2 gaming, it's just been waiting for the figures and now they are here.
The two wars are similar, but different and as it isn't a case of one or the other, playing both can be interesting and quite cheap terrain-wise.
;)
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Yes, the later American period of the war features extravagant US equipment and resources. The French have air power, but it's limited to WW2 era assets. No Phantoms and Thuds with massive payloads. And the French have a few light tanks and half-tracks. Nothing overwhelming. And the VM have the advantage of largely controlling the population and the surrounding terrain and choosing when and where to fight. A colonial war that is close to equally balanced, for once.
Carlos, what specific Osprey are you referring to?
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The Elite on Foreign Legion Paratoops has the BEP and REP organisations. The MAA on the Algerian War has general battalion TO&E for the paras.
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Carlos, this cries out for you to write an FoF supplement. :)
Company B do some 28mm Pacific gear that would suit the semi amphib nature of some IndoChine/Vietnam style ops.
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You're probably right. I've read maybe a dozen books on the topic(s) which seems about double what is required to write an FoF supplement. lol
OK that was unfair, they're a decent set of rules but hardly essays in scholarly research, which, after all, is not what they are intended to be.
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http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/TOandEs/files/Indo%20-%20china%20wars%20/
Thanks, Carlos. I also got some info from the files section in the above Yahoo group.
The division of the platoon into 2 large 12-15 man squads is interesting. I would have thought that the trend during and after WW2 would be to universal utilization of the triangular structure and 3 equal sections in each platoon with an inter changeable role. 2 large sections with one designated for maneuver and the other for fire support is more suggestive of the 1920's or 1930's.
I am guessing that the VM structure was triangular and based on the Soviet late WW2 model?
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I am reading the Osprey MAA number 322, "The French Indochina War (1946-54)", that has some information about OOB and interesting information about uniforms and equipments.
About a rulebook, "FoF" can be very useful for this conflict but I´m thinking to use "Charlie don´t Surf" (a company level parachute assault...) with some modifications.
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The division of the platoon into 2 large 12-15 man squads is interesting. I would have thought that the trend during and after WW2 would be to universal utilization of the triangular structure and 3 equal sections in each platoon with an inter changeable role. 2 large sections with one designated for maneuver and the other for fire support is more suggestive of the 1920's or 1930's.
Not quite correct to my mind... pre-WW2 tends towards four sections (Britain, Germany and iirc France), or two sections split into half sections (Italy) or thirds (Spain). All of these sections were in the region of 12 to 16 (or more in the case of Spain) men, before everyone pretty much settled on the now traditional three sections of 10 to 12 men just before, or during WW2. The British moved to three sections of 8 men because of manpower shortages and wage costs in the mid-thirties (but upped this up to 10 men after Dunkirk). Most other countries did the same, for various reasons not long after Britain (except Italy and Spain iirc).
The 'two section' model, if I have this right, was something the Commandos, U.S. Rangers and similar units, went for, although once more they often split these into two sub-sections. In conventional forces, a platoon's third section acts as a reserve for the other two and given the nature of 'Commando' tactics, a reserve was felt to be a pointless waste of manpower and guns, which could be better used in the surprise assaults they relied on. If Commandos needed a reserve, they were already in deep shit.
Why the French paras went for two sections, I have no idea, other than perhaps it had something to do with the amount of men and kit which could be transported by the least number of aircraft and without splitting sub-units between them perhaps? Two Ju52 or C-47 could carry a two-section platoon, with the platoon HQ (sensibly) split between them, without wasting any space.
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They went for it in Indochina principally to preserve and best utilise their pool of experienced junior leaders.
Have a look at the first link I provided. Do bear in mind that along with a reduction from three squads to two per platoon, the infantry company in these active theatres went from three platoons to four. Four platoons by 2 squad leaders (sous officers) is a saving of one over three platoons of three squads.
The Algerian War era Type 107 battalion is an interesting organisation at all levels but especially at the platoon level. The platoon was bifurcated into two groups, essentially fire support and assault. Beyond this the fire support element was split into two machine gun teams and the assault group into three equal assault teams. At the platoon level there was a further command element which usually included a bazooka team. Quite a flexible organisation actually and for students of later COIN organisations, like the Portuguese in Africa, it's vaguely familiar. No surprise the Portuguese studied French experinece and organisation as the French were at the time considered the masters of COIN.
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They went for it in Indochina principally to preserve and best utilise their pool of experienced junior leaders.
Have a look at the first link I provided. Do bear in mind that along with a reduction from three squads to two per platoon, the infantry company in these active theatres went from three platoons to four. Four platoons by 2 squad leaders (sous officers) is a saving of one over three platoons of three squads.
... with the notional 'free' NCO being the most experienced and who could handle a two-section platoon comfortably, thus also reducing the shortage of officers? That works for me.
:)
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I'll be using "Disposable Heroes" from Iron Ivan. They are my fav for everything from WW1 to Moderns.
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I'm working my way thru Windrow's The Last Valley and have reached the part where he writes about the tribal Meo partisans hunting Viet Minh heads. Hmmmmm....... I'd buy them, if they were available. Of course, with the obligatory French "advisor" to direct their activities.
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Outstanding figures and the various heads will provide a lot of options.
I recommend the following titles:
"La Legion Etrangere en Indochine 1946-1956" by Raymond Guyader, Heimdal.
"Les Paras Francais en Indochine 1945-1954" by Eric Adam and Patrice Pivette, H&C
"Les Paras Francaise en Algerie 1954-1962" by Eric Adam and Patrice Pivette, H&C
The photographs from the above are sure to inspire us for conversions, etc.
And finally; "The Last valley" by Martin Windrow, Da Capo Press
Russ
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Oh and guys, if you are listening, some head variants in Bigeard caps and berets would be nice for those of us who want to fight Algeria.
I agree. Just watched a fantastic subtitled film about Algeria. It was on Netflix, I was pleasantly surprised. Great ending, too.
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Bigeard caps and bush hats done will be sent to the caster on Friday.
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:) :) :) good news, time to invest methinks.
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:) :) :) good news, time to invest methinks.
if I did not have too many projects I would be thinking the same, absolutely lovely figures. Think I will wait and see what the next couple of releases are. ;D
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Bigeard caps and bush hats done will be sent to the caster on Friday.
For those of you who haven't made it over to the Red Star DBP (http://dienbienphuredstarminiatures.blogspot.co.uk/) blog yet, here's the heads...http://
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-jP2zAlYcyY8/UgyWIMA0skI/AAAAAAAAOt4/XatoHfv6Eig/w497-h279-no/Bigeard+caps.jpg)
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-sPsA6aGesxE/UgyWILp3CDI/AAAAAAAAOt8/mcVgxZXyUn0/w544-h173-no/Bush+hats.jpg)
... and congratulations to Paul and Ms Paul on their own 'latest miniature received'!
:)
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For those of you who haven't made it over to the Red Star DBP (http://dienbienphuredstarminiatures.blogspot.co.uk/) blog yet, here's the heads...http://
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-jP2zAlYcyY8/UgyWIMA0skI/AAAAAAAAOt4/XatoHfv6Eig/w497-h279-no/Bigeard+caps.jpg)
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-sPsA6aGesxE/UgyWILp3CDI/AAAAAAAAOt8/mcVgxZXyUn0/w544-h173-no/Bush+hats.jpg)
... and congratulations to Paul and Ms Paul on their own 'latest miniature received'!
:)
Apparently the French Army in the latter half of the 1950s was entirely populated by clones of Prince Charles and the late Sid James. I know many of us who collect toy soldiers are approaching their dotage but must the toys look like that as well? That lot look as if they should be armed with pension books. :-[
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Apparently the French Army in the latter half of the 1950s was entirely populated by clones of Prince Charles and the late Sid James. I know many of us who collect toy soldiers are approaching their dotage but must the toys look like that as well? That lot look as if they should be armed with pension books. :-[
I'd normally agree with you, but my one lasting impression of French troops in the Indochina War is that they tend to look craggy in the face and somewhat emaciated.
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-7BHY-Y7GqC8/Ugyu_nj4D6I/AAAAAAAAOuc/yPBdi3M3tus/w640-h479-no/U1254921INP.jpg)
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-pCdkldJOkXE/Ugyu7qrPnCI/AAAAAAAAOuQ/A9dgk0cZF-k/w592-h434-no/french_paratroopers_in_indochina.jpg)
I think man on the right in second photograph may even be one of the options offered.
Maybe the size of the photos exaggerates the features and they will look less pronounced 'in scale'. The difference between 'character' and 'characature' is in the eye of the beholder though.
C'est la vie... ;)
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I'd normally agree with you, but my one lasting impression of French troops in the Indochina War is that they tend to look craggy in the face and somewhat emaciated.
Maybe the size of the photos exaggerates the features and they will look less pronounced 'in scale'. The difference between 'character' and 'characature' is in the eye of the beholder though.
veterans polished by legion drill and actions
should look weary
I remember when I read the biography of Susan Travers who was married with a legion NCO and stationed in Indochina (later to be flown out when it got serious) wrote how her husband and many others returned sick and exhausted from the Indochina deployment and that she literally got back a changed man
from this perspective the sculptor should be congratulated for catching this aspect so well
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On top of malnourished teen years due to wartime and post-war rationing, the joys of amoebic dysentry and other topical tropical complaints as adults would certainly leave their mark. Photos of my relatives in the 40s and early 50s show a similar sort of 'lean' and oddly semi-skeletal and exaggerated facial appearance, and they were in Wolverhampton... which, opinions to the contrary, in no way resembles a disease-ridden war zone... mostly anyway.
I will admit that I wouldn't expect to see the same 'look' on U.S. Troops in the Vietnam War, but intentional or otherwise I think it works for these.
:)
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There is something fairly distinctive about the faces Mr Hicks sculpts, most of them do tend to a longer thinner face than many of the other sculptors around. It is that shape which made his Weasley figures for VBCW so right. I prefer Mr Hicks' standard faces with a bit of character about them compared to the Perry standards, which are a bit too clean cut and youthful, and certainly a lot better than the comic book faces of the recent BoltAction figures. Though you might have ruined the heads with Bigeard caps for me, as now, when I look at the head in the centre and all I can see his HRH Prince Charles
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I wont bother to use period pictures in future as reference ;)
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I like the character on his faces, they take paint SO much better!
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I like the character on his faces, they take paint SO much better!
Agree with that!
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This is marvellous stuff... Thank the lord I'm in deep with Vietnam in 20mm. I may yet crack and have a go at these, it's hard to resist at this point.
Will follow for now and try to remain steadfast.
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Hmm, no mouth filled with a cigarette. A little bit disappointig, I think. ;)
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I like a lot the faces that Paul make, they are very expressive and full of personality.
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Are we going to get beret and sunglasses?
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I wont bother to use period pictures in future as reference ;)
Nah, just make it all up in your head. Much more fun. ;)
Great sculpting as usual Mr. Hicks.
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Though you might have ruined the heads with Bigeard caps for me, as now, when I look at the head in the centre and all I can see his HRH Prince Charles
Okay, I see that now... the resemblance is rather uncanny, I admit. lol
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A fiver says that when he gets around to doing Geneviève de Galard, the famous and heroic nurse at Dien Bien Phu, she looks just like Camilla.
I think I'm beginning to warm to the idea of a 28mm version of Spitting Image. :D
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when I look at the head in the centre and all I can see his HRH Prince Charles
what lets You think that his father's family might not have spread the family genes (and thus theit gorgeous look) throughout Europe? :D
Prince of Greece and Denmark and son of Battenberg? served in the Mediterranean fleet..... there could be a couple of such faces in every harbour.... lol
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Are these new heads going to be available separately or as new options for the existing figures?
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I have to say these are very tempting models indeed. I have stayed away from the American involvement for a number of reasons, but mainly because it is a painful memory for many people here in the United States. As a kid The name Dien Bien Phu was like some strange flame a moth is attracted to. I can't really explain it, but it has appealed to me for years. I'm a 28mm gamer because it is easier on my eyes, and I like to be able to handle figures easily. I'm mostly a skirmish gamer due to budget constraints, and time constraints as well. I think these are figures I have been waiting for for the last 35 years. Thank you Mr. Hicks!
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Brilliant work from Hicksy as usual! The faces are great.