Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => Old West => Topic started by: Argonor on April 24, 2013, 08:21:12 PM
-
I've heard that the two rulesets are very much alike.
Is that right, or not, please?
-
As far as I know, both use cards for initiative but in a very different way. FoL models take "wounds", in DMH the "wounds" can go up and down. I think in FoL you have a hit roll then a "to wound" roll and I don't think there were many modifiers for cover, moving, etc. DMH is a single roll after applying modifiers. Lots of emphasis in DMH on the special cards that affect the game with cards specific to the gang (Cowboys, Lawmen, etc.). Both are influenced by a movie gaming style.
-
Glad somebody else brought this up. I didn't want to sound like jerk. Deadman's Hand is eerily similar to my Fistful of Lead rules I published back in 2001. I actually had people on the FfoL Yahoo group ask if Deadman's Hand was a supplement to Fistful of Lead.
- Card driven
- Special cards granting abilities
- Simplified weapon charts
- Wounds can go up and down with use of cards
- Ammo tracking is nil right down to the only out of ammo by rolling a "1".
DMH has 3 moves on activation instead of 2. Card assignment is slightly different. There is use of a d20 instead of d10. DMH is has much more grit and breaks games up into acts.
Mine's a helluva lot cheaper. I guess I should be flattered?
-J
-
I don't have DMH rulebook, but I did bought the FoL pdf years ago, and FoL rules are just GREAT.
And, this "similarity" issue has appeared in other forums already.
We have to be aware that there's only a certain amount of ways we can throw dice, count successes or "hits", measure ranges or movement, etc. in a wargame, but when 2, 3, 4 and more things in a rulebook are quite similar to a previously published work, I think this "eerie similarity" deserves our attention as a gaming community.
Best wishes.
-
but I did bought the FoL pdf years ago, and FoL rules are just GREAT.
+1
-
I purchased FoL a few weeks ago only and it is a great set of rules : Simple and Efficient. I have played it with two of my sons (12 and 8 ) and now they are able to play by themselves with only a translated summary sheet.
I don't like the commercial concept of Dead Man's Hand where you have to purchased mini to get posses cards.
-
You don't need to buy the figures to play the game. Although I have because they're really nice. :D
All the cards and rules you need are included in with the rulebook.
-
Ok probably a misunderstanding.
I'm confused by : "Boxed gang of Lawmen including special rules card and bases"
These special rules cards are include in the basic deck that comes with the rules ?
-
This is something I'm always a bit..wary of.
I like to create rule sets...but I haven't played a lot of what's out there. I'm always curious if I've made a copy of something without being aware of it. Heck, 13 years ago I made a WW1 flying game using 1/72nd scale models and a system of scribbling down moves, revealing them, and then shooting if you were in LOS/range etc. Then Wings of War showed up...and I thought "damn, why didn't I try to publish mine!".
Even two people in completely different places can come up with the same stuff. I don't have FOL nor DMH but I'm curious to see how close they are. From what I can tell neither are like SnS...but then I've heard some people say that Deadlands uses a similar dice system to SnS. They'd have to be pretty darn similar before I get really concerned. Does anyone own both?
-
I don't think the gang specific cards are included in the deck that comes with the rulebook. But all the rules for the gangs including the 'special' rules are in the book.
So as long as you are capable of referencing the page while playing or scribbling them down on a piece of paper to remind you it's not an issue. :D
-
Gents,
I got a PM from Stuart, the author of DMH. Seems like a decent, stand up guy. If he says there's no connection bewtween the two rule sets, that's good enough for me.
Fistful of Lead was written because a guy running a Wild West game at a con was a jerk to me 20 years ago. I didn't write them to make money, that's why they're so cheap.
DMH has more "meat" if you will. FfoL was written with tons of players (and young ones, too) in mind.
People can buy what they want, and decide what's best for them.
-J
-
Gents,
I got a PM from Stuart, the author of DMH. Seems like a decent, stand up guy. If he says there's no connection bewtween the two rule sets, that's good enough for me.
Fistful of Lead was written because a guy running a Wild West game at a con was a jerk to me 20 years ago. I didn't write them to make money, that's why they're so cheap.
DMH has more "meat" if you will. FfoL was written with tons of players (and young ones, too) in mind.
People can buy what they want, and decide what's best for them.
-J
Have no real interest in Wild West rules really - but that's very decent of both involved parties. Nice work gentlemen.
-
I don't think the gang specific cards are included in the deck that comes with the rulebook. But all the rules for the gangs including the 'special' rules are in the book.
So as long as you are capable of referencing the page while playing or scribbling them down on a piece of paper to remind you it's not an issue. :D
Yup, that's spot on Ray.
And thanks to Jaye for a very reasonable reply.
Stuart
-
So, similar, but not identical.
Thanks for the clarification. :)
-
No, Argonor, similar in design objective, - simple mechanics, cinematic - that's all. Some things - cards and out of ammo results that are used in other systems, such as TRWNN, LoTOW, FfoL and more, are related but what would any Old West game be without playing cards and out of ammo results!
-
I would like to point out I predate LOTOW and TRWNN. lol
-
Are either set of rules suited to solo play? Or should I just stick with Six Gun Sound?
-
Shoot N' Skedaddle is/will be very solo-friendly. I'll keep you posted Nick.
-
Stop teasing us Elbows, get the rules to the publisher already! :)
-
Are either set of rules suited to solo play? Or should I just stick with Six Gun Sound?
I think it's great for solo play. The way that the initiative cards work would be a good way for a game specifically designed for solo play.
-
I would like to point out I predate LOTOW and TRWNN. lol
Bought your rules a few months ago and they replaced LOTOW and TRWNN for me. Do not intend to get DMH though as happy with what I've got
-
Bought your rules a few months ago and they replaced LOTOW and TRWNN for me. Do not intend to get DMH though as happy with what I've got
Is that you Pete?
-
I would like to point out I predate LOTOW and TRWNN. lol
Then it's about time you pulled your finger out & did something about the campaign system you were talking about adding to your awesome rules. Although, having said that, it was a few years ago & I might well have imagined the whole conversation :D
-
Are either set of rules suited to solo play? Or should I just stick with Six Gun Sound?
I think 6GS is a brilliant system and the campaign mode is probably second to none! I have a campaign that I need to continue, made it to 1880 so far, 5 years left to go to see if they survive...
-
Both fistful of lead and DMH sound a lot like the rules with no name. So perhaps its just certain mechanisms suit gunfights....
-
I can speak for FfoL and that its not like RWNN. You have more control over what you do.
As far as campaigns, I have been dragging my feet because I feel most of time even the best rules become unbalanced after a few games. I have a skeleton in place but it is on the sideline for now. I'm working on another project and dealing with an aging parent with significant health problems. Ah life, why do always get in the way of my fun?
-
Hello,
here in Germany, Berlin, Old West Settings / Tabletops are played rarely.
But last shopping day at my local Tabletop Store i saw the wonderful Black Scorpion Minis and just had to buy some. :-*
After a quick research i chose DMH as my Old West System, read it and think that the rules are quite good.
After hearing about Fistful of Lead i bought it, too, and i noticed, that there are realy many similaritys, as they were mentioned here.
Unfortunately i promised (me) not to play the games until i painted my minis, so in the meantime i will read through the fantastic stuff you posted guys.
Which one of the two games do you guys prefer and why?
In my opinion both games are solid and good. Thanks to the "producer".
I think i will play both games.
Maybe FoL at the beginning with Tabletop-NewBe's or bigger Gaming Sessions (more player than 2) and later on switching to DMH.
+++
In the case of FoL i do like the idea of having more controle, by choosing which figure i will activate next time and not having cards lying on the table.
However rifles seem to dont have a disadvantage compared to pistols. In DMH pistols get the +2 in Point Blank Range and Rifles/Shotguns are restricted anyway.
Ok, this is no problem in FoL, if you give both sides the same weapon options.
In DMH i like the differences between the gangs and the reference sheet with all the modifiers. Simple, but not too simple.
Also i like the Reputation System and the different Scenarios (Scenes), although i have to modify some of them to suit my Gaming table, which will be covered with less bulidings, but more Woods, rocks etc. (more Scenes in "outer-city-areas" are welcome!)
+++
In both games the Rules for Movement are a little bit to simple for me, but it is no problem to add houserules for walking trhough a forest (difficult terrain) by halving the movement value etc.
In both games i think (but have not yet tested it) the aim action seems to be a little bit of a useless thing. Why should i aim, if i could shoot a second (third) time. I think this will be used little?! In DMH for example it is:
1) First shot with no modifier. Second Shot with a -1 modifier. Two chances of roling a 1, but also two chances to hit the other guy (maybe roling a 19+).
2) Aim and than shoot with + 1 (maybe +2 would have been better?!).
The good thing by playing a game and providing all the gaming stuff for the takers (other players) is, that i can choose which system and houserules we will use. :P
Maybe putting the good things out of both systems together or add some things to one of the other system (game). :)
Thanks and best regards,
Jan
(Sorry, i just can speak/write school english, it's not my first language)
-
Welcome Jan, to arguably the "home" of Old West gaming on the internet! lol
Looking forward to seeing your figures and hear what you think about the games. Always good to see some new blood in here!
-
Its always a quandry,
I have played rail wars for many a moon. Normally pick up games I found their mechanisms good for gun fighting even without characters involved (considering its steam punk) but gives a really fast (card based -mechanisms and poker chips for re-rolls etc)
I also for a while played LOTOW but as it was odd games now and again found it a bit of a bind to sort out stats sheets, different guns are a nice idea and characters etc but can also cause a pain when it is chucking a d6 for a couple of hours game and especially if you are hosting the game without buy in from others.
A mate recently picked up DMH so thought I would take a stab, just got it today and it sort of sits in similar vein to Rail wars for me though some limitations as its purely historical. It does meet needs for a quick pick up game but I think I could handle what is likely to arise from the next book in that more options, heroes and gunsluingers and possibly additional weapons. Fisticuffs seem a wee bit too simplistic when you consider how many punch ups happen in western movies, bar room brawls etc but not overly worried as if honest how many have interiors in building and then how many have ones that you can stage a huge group fight in...always bothered me as you then end up with a building over 30cm across and it could or would be out of scale when trying to fit in bases etc
My tuppence worth :D
-
Jan,
Welcome to the wonderful world of Wild West gaming. I can only speak to my baby Fistful of Lead. At it's heart, it is really a convention game/beer & pretzel rule set. But, I think you'll find has some depth when playing.
Fisticuffs or HTH fighting and "point blank" of FfoL are the same thing. When you get in close, it is assumed you're using whatever you have, knives, pistol butts, point blank shooting, etc. If you want detailed rules for bar room brawls FfoL is not for you. On the other hand, if you want to recreate a gun battle from a movie (as many as done) it's perfect. Recently someone posted the last battle from "Open Range".
As a rule of thumb when creating new gangs, I usually keep no more than half armed with rifles/shot guns.
Have fun, and keep the lead flying,
-J
-
Have no real interest in Wild West rules really - but that's very decent of both involved parties. Nice work gentlemen.
+1