Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => VSF Adventures => Topic started by: Franz_Josef on 04 July 2013, 04:26:49 PM
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One of my pet peeves is the portrayal in many VSF games/systems of the Germans/Prussians as the enemy of Victorian Great Britain. That is 20th century and is not of this period. Bismarck's foreign policy had always been one of isolating France and being conciliatory towards Britain. Germany doesn't seem threatening till 1898, when the young, new kaiser, Wilhelm II, "fires" Bismarck as Chancellor and begins to build a modern high seas fleet. If you asked the average Victorian gentleman to name the probable enemies of Britain, his first choice would be the Russian Empire (note the Great Game, where the Russians are seen as threatening India) and the second would be the French (e.g. check out the Fashoda affair). Prior to the 20th century, there are many connections between Germany and Britain. Also, the German and Austrian empires in this period are not congruent - they went to war in 1866 and weren't allied until the early 20th century.
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I think that it has more to do with the Germans looking cool. And remember its VSF. My Dutch Army is way more threatening than its actual counterpart.
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They aren't. If it wasn't for the British Empire the solar system would be ruled by foreigners and natives.
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They aren't. If it wasn't for the British Empire the solar system would be ruled by foreigners and natives.
lol lol lol
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Being half Brit and half German, I both scoff and feel your pain.
That said, as my mother's family was mostly from Hannover(grandfather and grandmother were more fluent in German than English), I actually think it's perfectly true about the Prussians... lol
Instead of complaining, re-write non-history! My stalled hidden dwarf wars, where VSF Brit and Prussian dwarves battle non stop in the shadows, my stuntie Brits had a nefarious plot to transport a large missile to the peaceful mountains of Ruritania, and bomb the begeberzes out of uppity folk who wouldn't bow to the Queen (Gawd bless 'er!). Only thing standing in the way was the group of lads of the Giant Trooper mechanical walker (had a near proper German version of that, but misplaced same).
Doug
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Perhaps strangely as the author of The Society of Thule I don't see them as the bad guys. You will note that they are not characterised as bad guys in their description, nor have they any particular enmity to Great Britain. It is true that Lord Curr and Count von Stroheim have their own personal feud, but that is because they both loved and lost the same woman (this may one day be explained in full...).
At this point Britain and Prussia/Germany had been allies for over two hundred years, with British troops frequently deploying to the continent to assist Germany, and Germany marching to rescue Wellington at Waterloo.
The Society is looking for full German reunification by any means, which makes the French in particular somewhat threatened by them. They are Germany's heroes :D
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"The Teutonic reputation for brutality is well-founded: their operas last three or four days; and they have no word for `fluffy'."
There you have it ;)
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I don't know about that. I have Russians & French for opposition to my British. And of course a lot of native armies.
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I agree with Chairface. I suspect the uniform has a lot to do with it. With regards to the 'traditional'enemies though:
Until recently, making a Russian force was not a very easy prospect and even I (who has a reputation for converted armies) was daunted by the prospect although I kept looking at it. There are now a couple of nice ranges to choose from so we may start to see more Russian forces.
As for the French.... well, they're French...... ;)
Seriously though, we've talked about it in our group and it was a simple thing of people not wanting to do a French force.
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I always prefer playing against the Japanese because their aeronefs are dead easy to shoot down ;) :D lol
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I'm Bavarian, tradition demands me to oppose Prussians and their like whereever encountered lol
I just wonder why there are so view Bavarian army lists in VSF. I demand to fight the Fritzs with my own people. ;)
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I'm Bavarian, tradition demands me to oppose Prussians and their like whereever encountered lol
I just wonder why there are so view Bavarian army lists in VSF. I demand to fight the Fritzs with my own people. ;)
Again, don't complain about the lack, crank some out!
Anyway, we ALL know why you don't see them; they are also in the shadows. It was the Bavarian Illuminati that orchestrated the dust up twixt my peace-loving dwarves, don't you know.
Doug
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I just wonder why there are so view Bavarian army lists in VSF. I demand to fight the Fritzs with my own people. ;)
Then write your own company Herr Glitzer! After all we could allow Lederhosen to count as a Lined Coat because of its distraction characteristic lol
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I always prefer playing against the Japanese because their aeronefs are dead easy to shoot down ;) :D lol
Piss off you ;D ;D
cheers
James
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Funny, I always make the Brits the "Bad Guys" in my VSF games :o lol on Earth (Venus only involves natives and the Spanish "civilizing" forces.) Something about being Spanish-Scots-Dutch-German Jewish and Irish-French-Cherokee in my heritage just delights in doing that.
Though the "Cherokee Illuminati" are lurking in the background as advisors to the non-reptilian natives of Venus (the reptiles think all Earth people taste good.) Actually I just made that last bit up - but it seems to have potential... Need to think on that a while...
Gracias,
Glenn
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I always prefer playing against the Japanese because their aeronefs are dead easy to shoot down ;) :D lol
But the Japanese are on our side! Most of their officers are Oxbridge or Sandhurst types, and their navy is modelled on ours. Besides, they seriously annoy the Russians (our enemies) and worry the Americans (our renegade former colonists).
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But the Japanese are on our side! Most of their officers are Oxbridge or Sandhurst types, and their navy is modelled on ours. Besides, they seriously annoy the Russians (our enemies) and worry the Americans (our renegade former colonists).
Yes but that does not instigate this desired reaction :)
Piss off you ;D ;D
cheers
James
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I field a Russian army and usually fight the Brits in the wilds of northern India. No Germans there.
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In the old free-for-all colonial games, the Belgians were the designated villains. The Free Belgian Congo is explanation enough.
Plus, there are the Southerners (CSA).
And Martian invaders.
And if all else fails, there's always MI5 draped in Masonic symbols...
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Yes but that does not instigate this desired reaction :)
lol lol
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"The Teutonic reputation for brutality is well-founded: their operas last three or four days; and they have no word for `fluffy'."
There you have it ;)
[chuckle]
to the OP - we English feel your pain. Imagine going to the cinema and knowing that in Hollywoodland every cut-glass English accent signifies a bad-un ;)
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lol lol
Weakling ;D
cheers
James
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Weakling ;D
lol
Parachute, anyone...?
::)
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lol
Parachute, anyone...?
::)
Piss off you ;D ;D
cheers
James
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"The Teutonic reputation for brutality is well-founded: their operas last three or four days; and they have no word for `fluffy'."
Well said, Captain B.
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In our games we have Brits, Prussians, French, Arab jihadists, Martian (red and Cephalopods) and Venusian parrotment. Almost always the Brits and Prussians are on opposite sides with the other forces being rather fickle with their allegiances ;)
However everyone opposes the Cephalopods as the tripods are too damn tempting to blow up! :D
We are expecting the Russians to make an appearance soon and it remains to be seen who they will side with.
Cheers
Fuzzy
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"The Teutonic reputation for brutality is well-founded: their operas last three or four days; and they have no word for `fluffy'."
Flauschig, which I believe the word "fluffy" is derived from. I must admit, you are correct about the operas.
I'm Bavarian, tradition demands me to oppose Prussians and their like whereever encountered lol
I just wonder why there are so view Bavarian army lists in VSF. I demand to fight the Fritzs with my own people. ;)
My father's side of the family is Prussian, so I may be a bit biased. I'd say a soldier wearing Prussian Blue trousers looks more "bad-ass" than one wearing Lederhosen. Seriously, I'd buy a Bavarian army for VSF. They would definitely face against my Prussians. Great idea!
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<snip> the Americans (our renegade former colonists).
You forgot "successfully" before renegade, sir.
;)
Gracias,
Glenn
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You forgot "successfully" before renegade, sir.
I've just watched Captain America.
On reflection I think we may have been the successful ones.
:~}
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...man, it's just because us Germans muse about facts like that.
Combined with the often-encountered inability to laugh about oneself that makes us easy targets. :D
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It must be my fault! I know Im to blame.
Why? Because I work in Hollywood making those movies that for ever have made the "Germans" the "goto" default bad guys, with of course the Japanese and Russians running neck and neck for 2nd. Really there are many other reasons like, availability of cool figures, lots of gamers have them painted already, at some time they fought almost everywhere on the globe. One can easily imagine a Prussian (German) incursion into Mexico or even the Arctic but can you see the Chinese of the same period doing this? (I have a Boxer Rebellion period Chinese VSF force!) They have cool uniforms, their short gruff sounding language sounds threatening as opposed to the same threat issued by a Frenchman being confused with a marriage proposal.... Hell they got spike on their dammed helmets! Even their Dogs have a badass reputation...Rin Tin Tin wasn't a Poodle, a Spaniel, or a Pekinese, he was a German Shepard! lol
(http://www.historicalhobbies.com/DOGS/main/images/VonLostnarm.jpg)
I laugh on the set all the time when they give the "period" bad guys their guns they are invariably a German Walther P-38, a Luger Po8, or the best of them all a Mauser "Broomhandel" 1896 30 cal! (I own one complete with holster stock and shoot it!) why? because they look cool, mean, and sinister. When I'm at the shooting range I can shoot my US 1911 45, British Webley, Jap Nambu, no one really notices, but when the 1896 Mauser comes out everyone, even the range masters take a look. Being in California we have "Motorcycle gangs" famous (or should I say imfamous) like the Mongols, Satans Slaves, and the Hells Angeles, I see them quite often and they many times sport WWII German helmets (I've not seen one in a french, British, or even a US helmet in the 40+ years I've been watching) and so it goes with those dammed snappy dressers, the Germans! :o
The fact that in reality the Prussians/Germans did not become the "bad" guys until around the turn of the century should have little bearing on the fact that in most peoples MADE up VSF world they are the bad-guys of choice because they fit the bill so well, we call it "type casting" ;D
(http://historicalhobbies.com/DOGS/main/images/Gaslight/PrusMiniAir1.jpg)
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I've just watched Captain America.
On reflection I think we may have been the successful ones.
:~}
I wonder if Captain Britain is better known than Captain America in the world outside the UK/US?
;)
Just asking!
lol
Gracias,
Glenn
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I wonder if Captain Britain is better known than Captain America in the world outside the UK/US?
;)
Just asking!
lol
Gracias,
Glenn
Who? Oh, you mean that lame ass idea by an American company trying to promote sales over here. Yeah, that didn't work for us :D
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Remember the very term "victiorian SF' is Anglo-centric imperialism. Otherwise it would be called "Wilhelmischer Wissenschafts Dichtung" :D
Or Kaiserliche Zukunft Erfindungen. lol
In any case, most of the games, novels and miniatures are produced in Britain, so its not strange it's mostly british humour with Pulp stereotypes.
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Of course its 'Anglo-centric Imperialism'. We were the only ones with a real empire lol
We let you European johnnies have a few mosquito-ridden hell holes, mostly because there was nothing of value there :P
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Why? Because I work in Hollywood making those movies that for ever have made the "Germans" the "goto" default bad guys, with of course the Japanese and Russians running neck and neck for 2nd.
And they always have British accents when they speak English, to boot.
(http://www.virtual-history.com/movie/photo/10/large/10474.jpg)
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Funny, I always make the Brits the "Bad Guys" in my VSF games...
Could that be because Britain was picking on Pacific Islanders, Dutch farmer and African kingdoms; many of whom didn't even have guns, while Germany was picking on France the largest European nation?
Though the "Cherokee Illuminati" are lurking in the background as advisors to the non-reptilian natives of Venus (the reptiles think all Earth people taste good.)
Gracias,
Glenn
The "Cherokee Illuminati" aren't they really the skin walkers?
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to spin that thread further with the british imperialist concept of VSF:
isn't it typical for british to despise their own royal family because they are, well, german?
any other on the throne than madman Willi 2 and both countries might have been allies in the great war.....
something must have happened during these childhood visits to Scotland with the poor boy....
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to spin that thread further with the british imperialist concept of VSF:
isn't it typical for british to despise their own royal family because they are, well, german?
any other on the throne than madman Willi 2 and both countries might have been allies in the great war.....
something must have happened during these childhood visits to Scotland with the poor boy....
He was pantsed?
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is this comparable?
(http://polpix.sueddeutsche.com/polopoly_fs/1.470651.1357523976!/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/900x600/image.jpg)
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The boy in the video gets pantsed.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RkQnmgKBrRo
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I know what pantsed means
I asked whether wearing a kilt can count as pantsed? ;)
at least for the future german emperor, who is with his father in the picture ;)
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If they didn't let him wear anything underneath it would.
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Even their Dogs have a badass reputation...Rin Tin Tin wasn't a Poodle, a Spaniel, or a Pekinese, he was a German Shepard!
Minor quibble, but the poodle is also a German breed. Pudelhund was the original term. Point taken, however. German Shepard, Rottweiler, Doberman..........all pretty bass-ass.
PS. Love the Wespe!
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In my world it's the Belgians that are the genuine bad guys (at least the ones in Africa). Reading Heart of Darkness and King Leopold's Ghost are likely to blame for that.
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so, is VSF in the end a fictionalized race about the "worthiest competitor" in imperialistic attitude?
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In my Space 1889 universe which I am pretty much bringing over to IHMN, there are three major 'Power Blocs" The Anglo-Prussian Bloc, the Franco-Russian Bloc and the Ottomans. The Japanese are rapidly building up into a Power Bloc of their own as they continue to seek out bits and pieces of China not already committed to one of the other Blocs. The Americans a nearly members of the Anglo-Prussian Bloc just from cultural/familial links, but are rapidly growing in power and may become a new Power Bloc of their own.
The Anglo-Prussian Bloc is focused on trade and empire, and on keeping the other Blocs in check. It also works to keep the Ottomans out of central Africa or Asia as much as possible.
The Franco-Russian Bloc arose largely as a counter to the Anglo-Prussian Bloc. It seeks also to increase colonial holdings in Africa and Asia, largely at the expense of the Anglo-Prussians. It also seeks to hold back the influence of the Ottomans in the southern portions of Europe. The French part of the alliance also seeks to retain a hold on Mexico as a counter to American expansion and as a possible alternative to African colonies.
The Ottomans seek largely to expand back into the glory of the ancient Caliphate; desiring to take all of Northern Africa and Southern Europe back into its fold, and to embrace India as well.
Since my group's scenarios tend to be American or Anglo-Prussian focused, its the French, the Russians and the Ottomans who are often the 'bad guys', with some occasional troubles with Japanese Imperialism, Chinese banditry and South American revolutionary movements.
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Interesting that no-one seems to mention Austrians/ Austria-Hungary... ok it's a thread which was taking about Germans/Prussians specifically, but does anyone else apart from me have forces which are meant to be from the Austro-Hungarian Empire at all? How do you (or anyone else) view them, if at all?
My own inclination is more to have the Russians as the 'jolly bad chaps' to the British as the jolly good ones, thinking in line of Northern India and Great Game scenarios as have already been mentioned.
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By the late 19th Century the sun has pretty much set on the Austrian Empire, so I tend not to think of them at all to be honest. That said, my Neo-Venezian forces probably hold some major grudges so I might do some Austrians at some point....
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In my earlier-described setting, the Austro-Hungarian Empire is a client of the Anglo-Prussian Bloc, which focuses nearly all of its efforts on holding off Ottoman influence and trying to retain the last vestiges of its territory in Italy from the Franco-Russian backed Italian Nationalists.
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By the late 19th Century the sun has pretty much set on the Austrian Empire, so I tend not to think of them at all to be honest.
Fair enough from a historical perspective, but Austria-Hungary remained a 'power' (theoretically at least) even if a waning second or even third rate compared to other Imperial European nations. More interestingly though is the scope for IHMN I think - plenty of opportunities for companies from all sorts of troop types, and loads of possible scenarios as well as opponents - nationalist rebels, anarchists, Hungarian separatists, Turkish agents, Serbia, Italy, Russia and so forth. The usefulness of VSF in general being it is fictional, I reckon Austria-Hungary has a lot to offer :D
As it is, I need to base my Austrian company for IHMN and I'll put them up on a new thread, but just thought I'd throw them into the mix of possibilities.
In my earlier-described setting, the Austro-Hungarian Empire is a client of the Anglo-Prussian Bloc, which focuses nearly all of its efforts on holding off Ottoman influence and trying to retain the last vestiges of its territory in Italy from the Franco-Russian backed Italian Nationalists.
Now there's an idea; I wonder how an Austro-Turkish war would have turned out in the early 1900s - obviously including Balkan nations, and conveniently assuming Russia, Italy etc didn't get involved - be interesting to think how the Turkish & Austrian militaries might have matched up.
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And the Austro-Hungarians give some scope for VSF innovation and inventions. Nikolai Tesla was born in Croatia. The Skoda armaments factory in Bohemia provided the Austro-Hungarian army with the 320 mm giant "mortars" (Morsers, really more of a howitzer) used by the German Army in 1914 to reduce the Liege fortresses. Dr. Sigmund Freud in Vienna is experimenting with psycotherapy (and experimented with psycotropic drugs too, but perhaps that is another tale). And for a touch of Gothic horror, there are probably vampires and werewolves in the backwoods of the Hungarian territories, amidst deserted and ruined castles (and gypsies!). The Romfels armored car design (a few were constructed just prior to WW I) is elegant and almost Art Deco.
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let's be honest, Austro-Hungaria has been replaced by Ruritania in popular culture
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In Heroes, Villains & Fiends a certain Prince of Wallachia appears as a 'diplomat' for the Austro-Hungarians :D
And he can face off against the Ottoman Imperial Counter-Intelligence Service and the Okhrana.
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Don't forget a certain member of the Austro-Hungarian royal family sent the lead the intervention in Mexico.
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Interesting that no-one seems to mention Austrians/ Austria-Hungary... ok it's a thread which was taking about Germans/Prussians specifically, but does anyone else apart from me have forces which are meant to be from the Austro-Hungarian Empire at all? How do you (or anyone else) view them, if at all?
<snip>
Closest I have come to that is to start research WW1 Austro-Hungarians (The Empire's Swan Song.)
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Ruritania is a bit more of a backwater than the old Austro-Hungarian Empire. Fin-de-siecle Vienna (with a population that went from under a half million in 1850 to over 2 million by 1910) is the capital of a "nation" that in the 1890s (and right up to the beginning of WW 1) is still among Europe's cultural leaders and would help stamp the nature of 20th century culture Think of Klimt, Mahler, Freud, Wittgenstein, Theodor Herzl. Kafka lives in Prague, but that is still part of the Empire and he writes in German not Czech. The below just scratches the surface.
At the same time Viennese culture is a thriving, muti-ethnic melting pot, the German occult revival (Theosophy, Rosicrucianism, even a revival of astrology) is also growing here as well as in Germany itself (individuals active in the occult realm are Friedrich Eckstein, Franz Hartmann' Guido von List, and Rudolf Steiner) (Their "volkisch" occult beliefs will later influence the Nazis.)
In the field of exploration and discovery (besides psychotherapy), there is an 1872-74 Austro-Hungarian North Pole Expedition (Julius von Payer and Karl Weyprecht are the leaders of a crew that comes from all over the Empire, many from Istria and Dalmatia). Financed by two counts, Johann Nepomuk Wilczek and Odon Zichy. The expedition discovers and names the Franz Josef Archipelago, and is considered a pioneer in polar exploration.
A Hungarian expedition to Tibet and China in 1878 were the first western visitors to certain ancient Buddhist sites (e.g. oasis town of Dunhaung on border of the Gobi). The team consisted of Count Bela Széchenyi, Gustav Kreitner and the geographer/geologist Lajos Loczy (best known for his detailed research of Lake Balaton). Loczy mentioned a "hidden library," one of the "Treasures of Mogao," to a friend, Aurel Stein (a Hungarian-born British subject who was later knighted for his Central Asia exploration and archeological collection.)
In Africa, Hungarian Count Sámuel Teleki (born in Transylvania!) discovered and named Lake Rudolf (now also called Lake Turkana) and Lake Stefanie (now Chew Bahir), in northern Kenya and southern Ethiopia. He set out from Pangani (now in Tanzania) in February 1887 with an Austrian naval officer, Ludwig von Höhnel, and they traversed all of what is now Kenya to the southern end of Ethiopia. They climbed Kilimanjaro and Mount Kenya in March 1887 and then followed the interior river system to Lakes Rudolf and Stefanie, which they reached in March 1888. During the return to the East African coast, which they reached at Mombasa in October 1888, Teleki discovered an active volcano (in southern Kenya) subsequently named for him.
"The concept of a vertical aircraft or helicopter began to challenge the imagination of Austro-Hungarian scientists toward the end of the 19th century. Noteworthy are the investigations of Josef Popper-Lynkeus, Anton Jarolimek, Professor Georg Wellner, and Wilhelm Kress. In 1894, Wellner experimented with a rotating-wing model that achieved a lift coefficient of 15kg per horsepower. Kress built a small 33kg model with counter-rotating propellers powered by an electric motor. In 1895 his associate. Dr. Waechter, successfully demonstrated the model indoors and out to the Technical Military Committee. Subsequently, Kress proposed a man-carrying helicopter weighing 325kg driven by a 20hp engine." http://www.aviastar.org/helicopters_eng/oeffag.php Peter Grosz "Austro-Hungarian Army Aircraft of World War I", 2002
Anyos Jedlik (1800-1895), a Hungarian priest and engineer and professor at the University of Budapest, invented a prototype dynamo prior to 1856 (although Siemens is usually given credit, because Jedlik didn't mention it in writing prior to 1861 and his invention didn't come to public notice). Jedlik experimented with electro-magnetic rotating devices.
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See! Loads of potential!
Great set of info there :D
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Austro-Hungarians for VSF to oppose my Spanish? Aaargh, that is a great and terrible idea that is now planted in my brain!
Just when I was sure I would be reducing my my miniatures in volume!
Seriously, that is a thought I will have to stew over and consider...
Have I ever told you guys how bad an influence you guys are?
Fortunately I don't know what figures might be appropriate.
OMG, The Meridian Streampunk KS figures I pledged for... What masked heads would work for them??
Gracias,
Glenn
Edit: Insert Evil for bad in the sentence above...
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I think France and Austro-Hungaria were regarded (and this has carried to a recent view) as some kind of second rate in matters of imperialistic power.
This however does not diminish cultural achievments nor was it intended as a disqualifying statement from my side.
I indeed believe that Ruritania at the time the books were written was a metaphor to symbolize exactly that thing: an operatic state that was too busy with itself.
And that is the reason Ruritania is shown as a backwater state with imperial ambitions but nothing to back them up. And in a certain way that was exactly what happened when WW1 came....
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Have I ever told you guys how bad an influence you guys are?
Thank you :D
Fortunately I don't know what figures might be appropriate.
I've been going by Miller's 'Vanished Armies'; it's focussed on 1907-1914, so a bit later than the C19th setting for VSF, but plenty of wonderful illustrations and ideas for uniforms. The IHMN company I'm finishing off have a uniform which is a bit of a cross between Austrian and French Dragoons, but of course the uniforms don't have to be historically accurate. Besides which it has illustrations of lots of other European nations' uniforms too, a great deal of inspiration.
I've used the Ceremonial Academy Guards from Empress' Mutton Chop Miniatures line for my Austrians - they're being based so I'll post some pics later in the week/at the weekend.