Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => Age of Myths, Gods and Empires => Topic started by: H.M.Stanley on July 09, 2013, 09:57:52 AM
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Team, i fancy a small dabble in Gladiators fights in the arena. There looks to be some interesting new rules out there or about to be.
I love the idea of the biscuit tin arena and fully intend to nick that idea :D
I know next to nothing about this period.
I'm looking at the Crusader Gladiator figures as Nick/Northstar is a short drive and as nice as the new Paul Hicks scuplts are, i don't want to wait.
I'm going to buy a couple of packs; what would be the most likely pairings be? I've narrowed the list to their Murmilones/Cropellarius (a must) and Thraeces & Hiplomachi (or possibly Sectores/Scissor instead)
Thanks
James
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The most common types:
Retiarius vs Secutor
Murmillo vs Thraex or Hoplomachus
Provocator vs Provocator
The rarer types:
Arbelas (Scissor) vs Retiarius or Arbelas
Crupellarius vs Crupellarius
Dimachaerus vs unknown probably Dimachaerus, maybe murmillo
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Furt beat me to it. So only a wrap-up.
The principle of most matches is Light vs. Heavy. Heavies are the "Roman" types with large shields and/or heavy armour.
There are a lot of specialised types, some very uncommon or literally unknown apart from single mention (unfortunately, with the Crupellarius among them). I would stick to the well-known types for a start. If you want the full complement, better get some Equites or Venatores (and wild beasts) first, as these were employed interchangeably with gladiator matches during a day at the arena.
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Furt/Doc
Perfect - thank you both!
My hunch was Heavy v Light. So, Murmillo vs Thraex or Hoplomachus it is
James
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Good luck with it James. Be warned, they are an addictive bunch...
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Good luck with it James. Be warned, they are an addictive bunch...
Just a couple of packs. Honest :)
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Just a couple of packs. Honest :)
Good luck with that! ;)
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Good luck with that! ;)
Well, i bought the two packs i wanted (and i've managed to source a 2nd Crupellarius for those rare fights).
I also bought the Iron Ivan "Vktus" as i've liked their rule sets in the past.
Was sorely tempted to buy the extra packs :)
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Right-O,
Now that the proverbial red dust has settled, it appears that i have a spare Myrmillo, Hoplomachus and Thraex.
Would exchange for, and in order of preference, (i don't mind which of mine you'd want) a 1.Retiarus/Laquerarius, 2.Sector and 3.Provocator, Dimachaerus or Arbelas.
I'd prefer Crusader figures to match.
Thanks
James
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There is also at least some evidence of murmillo vs. murmillo. I was at the British Museum today and snapped this shot on my phone:
(http://imageshack.us/a/img96/3365/s1uc.jpg)
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Well, I'm rather sure the Romans occasionally had tried all sort of pairings, just being curious how it goes and just for fun.
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I'm sure they did, Prof. What was it Asterix and Obelix would say? "These Romans are crazy!"
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Gladiatorial combat was a highly ritualised affair. Certainly, there is a chance of mix and match, though in general it wasn't just a sports game but kind of a religious ceremony. So lots of symbols and symbolic actions which might well have restricted leeway to a minimum. Consequently, gladiatorial combat is mostly mentioned when there's something exceptional going on – like women fighting each other or men in experimental armour entering the arena.
In essence, I'd still go for the classic matches. That's hard enough to pull off in a game. ;)
And, sorry, can't resist: the description of that fragment is guess-work. There's hardly any defining equipment visible, so that those "Murmillones" could as well just be Provocatores (given their similar helm designs). And even if they are meant to be Murmillones – is that a "trustworthy" depiction or something made for entertainment of onlookers as ourselves?
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In essence, I'd still go for the classic matches.
Me too! I just thought the possibility of a provenance-able murmillo vs. murmillo bout was interesting.
And, sorry, can't resist: the description of that fragment is guess-work. There's hardly any defining equipment visible, so that those "Murmillones" could as well just be Provocatores (given their similar helm designs). And even if they are meant to be Murmillones – is that a "trustworthy" depiction or something made for entertainment of onlookers as ourselves?
Absolutely. I would like to think the BM would have been a little careful before labelling something so clearly, but whether it was a true depiction or fantasy, I don't know how we'd ever be able to tell from such a small fragment.
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And, sorry, can't resist: the description of that fragment is guess-work. There's hardly any defining equipment visible, so that those "Murmillones" could as well just be Provocatores (given their similar helm designs). And even if they are meant to be Murmillones – is that a "trustworthy" depiction or something made for entertainment of onlookers as ourselves?
Their helms do lack the murmillo "fin", and are rather provocator like, although no chest armour appears apparent. As Rabs said, I'd like to believe the BM was knowledgeable enough to know what they were talking about though. lol
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Warning pedantic anorak about :D
Actualy the pairing of gladiators was more along the line of Parmularii against Scutarii ie small shields against big shields.
So a Thraex would be classed as a Parmularius whereas a Murmillo would be a Scutarius.
Rule of thumb. Small shield = full size ocrea, big shield = short ocrea usually only on the left side.
Doc and Furt got the pairings correct however.
Crupelarius is indeed a rare beast. In fact the best and one of the few times this type is actually mentioned is during the Gallic wars.
Somewhat similar to a Crupelarius would be a Cataphractarius but he appears to have been mail armoured: From the 'Gallic' description and a single illustration the Crupelarius seems to have had segmented 'plate' armour and a pot- like helmet almost like a Medieval 'Grand Heaume'.
The Cataphractarius on the contrary appears to have worn a helmet not unlike that of a Secutor but with an additional metal? crest.
One of the most problematic is the Dimachaerus, or perhaps at the same time the easiest one to portray. It has not -yet- been established that this was a separate class of gladiator. It might have been a sort of promotion for very experienced gladitaors of several classes.
Illustrations show them wielding short gladius- like swords or daggers in both hands - the typical gladiator gladius was a LOT shorter than the standard army one apparently- but mostly shown is a pair of curved acinaces. Both arms are usualy protected but the rest of their panoply varies enormously. Helmets, bareheaded, ocrea ( leather or metal or none) even short mailshirts. Take your pick.
Retiarius. Most mosaics show retiarii with the galerus and arm protection on their left arm and also wielding the net with that arm. Makes good sense. The trident or spear appears to have been carried in the right hand. After the net was cast and not retrieved the retiarius fought either with the trident in both hands or with an additional pugio in the left. At least one illustration shows a retiarius with an open faced helmet.
Sagitarius. obviously an archer but AFAIK no illustrations. Could have been mounted like the Equites. Who mostly fought on foot ironically.
Essedarius. Chariot fighter and probably a 'show' gladiator.
Aqu(e)manius only one reference and described as variant of the Traex but armed with a spear. Small round shield but 2 long ocrea like the Thraex. Very similar to the Hoplomachus probably.
Velites. lightly armed and unarmoured. Mostly spears or javelins.Illustrations may show Venatores or Confectionares.
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Excellent!
Any thoughts on armour (steel or bronze?), shield designs and colour of linen? Clearly i'm waiting for my reference books to arrive ;)
Thanks
James
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Velites. lightly armed and unarmoured. Mostly spears or javelins.Illustrations may show Venatores or Confectionares.
Confectionares were very rare and fought with chocolates. :D
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Velites. lightly armed and unarmoured. Mostly spears or javelins.Illustrations may show Venatores or Confectionares.
Confectionares were very rare and fought with chocolates. Cheesy
Belgae?
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Confectionares were the poor guys who had to dispatch wounded animals in the arena. Probably the lousiest job ever lol
Strictly speaking they weren't even gladiators but many- well those that survived- often became venatores.
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Confectionares were the poor guys who had to dispatch wounded animals in the arena. Probably the lousiest job ever lol
Wow - I've never heard that term. You learn something everyday.
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First 4 gladiators cleaned and based ready for undercoating this evening ... :)
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Would someone being willing to type up a primer for us novice Ludus owners? Just a list of the most common gladiator types, armament, and pairings...perhaps with pretty pictures? That would be oh so lovely and appreciated...(and a darn site cheaper than buying some big fancy book!)
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Would someone being willing to type up a primer for us novice Ludus owners? Just a list of the most common gladiator types, armament, and pairings...perhaps with pretty pictures? That would be oh so lovely and appreciated...(and a darn site cheaper than buying some big fancy book!)
Oh come on Elbows, you know you need a big shiny book! I'll see what I can do. ;)
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Would someone being willing to type up a primer for us novice Ludus owners? Just a list of the most common gladiator types, armament, and pairings...perhaps with pretty pictures? That would be oh so lovely and appreciated...(and a darn site cheaper than buying some big fancy book!)
Apart from the hints given here already, those nice chaps over at that Wiki-something-site might have met your requirements: LINK (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Roman_gladiator_types).
;)
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Arbelas: Less than half a dozen illustrations but a few good descriptions. Scale or mail armour. two (short) ocrea. Enclosed Secutor style helmet with a metal crest. Armed with a gladius /dagger and crescent or semi- circular axe mounted on a fully armoured sleeve.
Could be a variant/descendant of the earlier Scissor. Probably a specialist. Fought against Retiarii and another Arbelas.
Murmillo( Myrmillo) The classic gladiator. Probably an evolution of the older 'Gaul' type gladiator when these became politically incorrect.
PLenty of illustrations. Good descriptions. Enclosed helmet with apparently either a fish- fin or even a whole fisf depicted on it. However, many illustrations show just crests or plumes. Manica on the right arm, short ocrea on the left leg. Armed with gladius and dagger. Big oval or rectangular scutum. Fought Retiarii, Hoplomachi, Thraex, Laqeuarii, Dimacheirii in short anything that moved. :D
Thraex ( Thracian) Again a most popular gladiator. Many good illustrations and descriptions. Enclosed helmet with- again apparently- often a Griffin style metal crest. Most often also plumes and feather crests. Long ocrea on BOTH legs, manica on right arm only. Small square parmula shield. Fought with a 'sica' a sort of curved/hooked sword( to reach behind the big shield of his regular opponent the Murmillo) or the more slender acinaces. Fought as said Murmillones but also - according to mosaics-Hoplomachi, Retiarii and Dimacheirii.
Hoplomachus. Armour almost the same as a Thraex. Two long ocrea, manica on right arm. Enclosed helmet again like a Threax or Murmillo often with additional plumes it seems. Armed with a spear and dagger. Small round parmula shield. Probably/possibly a parody on the Greek aspis shield often erroneously called 'hoplon'
Aquemanius( variant?) described as a Thraex with a spear. Could very well be a - deregatory-wordplay on Aquamanius ( wash-bassin) from the small round shield of a Hoplomachus. Or it could have meant a 'lighter' sort of Hoplomachus. See drawing below.
Provocator. Origins a bit vague. Might have been a 'guest'- type gladiator or an evolution of 'noxii' condemned criminals (soldiers?) given a last chance to redeem themselves. Or all this might just be untrue and it was simply a new class of gladiators introduced to spice up things.
Oddly enough this gladiator breaks some 'rule of thumb' rules as he has a long ocrea on his left leg and at least a medium sized rectagular or oval/oblong shield. Manica on right arm as usual and armed with a gladius and dagger. Helmets at first without a visor, later with. Almost almost never a crest but sometimes two plumes (one on either side) Best known for the cardiophylax chest armour.
Perhaps the shield is something special. It is invariablly shown without the ubiquitious big metal boss in the centre, but instead just a spine like the older Gallic shields. It just might be that this type of shield was somewhat weaker or could not be used offensively. Your guess is as good as mine. Fought other Provocators or Murmillones. This model however shows a shieldboss. But it is such a nice one I couldn't resist.
(http://www.romeomodels.com/images/RM-90-11_1.jpg)
Also take a look here for some really intersting pictures of re- enactors on Flickr.The Provocator shown is really good.
http://www.flickriver.com/photos/tags/provocator/interesting/ (http://www.flickriver.com/photos/tags/provocator/interesting/)
Retiarius The 'net' man Probably the best known gladiator?
Armed with a net a dagger and a fuscina trident. The left side was protected by a galerus- a heavy armoured plate fastened to the left shoulder and reaching almost to the top of the head. Under this was an armoured manica. Fought mostly against Secutors but also Murmillones and perhaps even Thraex.
Variant : Laquearius who had a lassoo instead of a net, and a spear or dagger instead of the fuscina.
(http://cdn0.sbnation.com/imported_assets/884494/retiarius_1m_medium.jpg)
This drawing comes from a Fox News site.
Secutor. Later he traditional adversary of the Retiarius. Enclosed smooth helmet with rather small eye holes so the trident couldn't penetrate. Manica on right arm, short ocrea on left leg. Rectangular or oblong shield. It seems the Retiarius was considered the 'better' of this pairing as often 1 Retiarius was paired off against 2 Secutors.
(http://www.vroma.org/images/mcmanus_images/lanista2.jpg)
Other gladiators mentioned in texts but with few if any reliable illustrations.
Saggitarius Archer. Only illustraton shows an armoured archer with a curved -composite?- bow and an Eastern style helmet.
Cruppelarius Only illustration is of a walking tank completely encased in segmented armour and with a huge pot- like helmet.Probaly armed with a gladius and shield.
Equites Fought on horseback with spears and then with gladius and shield when dismounted. Enclosed helmet, armour unknown if any. Mostly round smallish shields.
Veles. Unarmoured light gladiator armed with spear(s)/ javelins and sometimes a shield. Almost always bareheaded. Possibly an evolution of either the Venatores or simply to mimick the Roman light infantry?
Ga(e)tulian. Only mentioned once. Light, unarmoured gladiator armed with throwing darts or small javelins.
Cathaphratarius. Heavily armoured gladiator wearing a full or 3/4 mail shirt. Secutor style helmet. Big scutum. No ocrea. Fought with gladius? or semi- spatha so might be a later type mostly popular in the East.
Gaul and Samnite. Early types of gladiators until the Gauls and Samnites became part of the Roman Empire. Later evolved into Murmillo and Hoplomachus.
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Top Banana! Thanks for that WB
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Dimacheirus.
PLenty of illustrations and as many contradictions.
This lets me assume a Dimacheirus wasn't a specific tpe of gladiator, but possibly some sort of 'reward'/ promotion for a Murmillo, Thraex or other gladiator.
Armoured, unarmoured, with or without helmets, ocrea and manicas. But always armed with two handweapons either gladii or acinaces. Take your pick.
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Sorry for deleting the pictures/drawings in my previous posts.
A moderator on this forum pointed out that they might still carry a copyright.
I'm convinced they are not since most came from another forum I'm frequenting and a still from a YouTube film,
Usually I go to great lenghts to ensure that no illustrations I use are indeed copyrighted, but my notion of 'copyright' or 'public domain' can be flawed.
Sorry again for the inconvenience.
However, if you would like to see the pictures most of them can also be found on a Finnish History site found here.
http://historianet.fi/roomalaiset/gladiaattorit-erikoistuivat (http://historianet.fi/roomalaiset/gladiaattorit-erikoistuivat)
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Thank your for your understanding, Willie.
Though like said in my message, I didn't mind you posting the photos of mosaics, it was only about artworks.
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Heck yeah, this is what I needed. :) Time to start compiling this all on a word document so I can keep it.
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H.M.Stanley You might be interested in this little hardback book: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Gladiator-Roman-Fighters-Unofficial-Manual/dp/0500051674/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1373578976&sr=8-1&keywords=gladiator+manual Its main focus isn't on the types gladiators and their pairings, though that is covered. Its a look at the life of the gladiator in his 'career'. Anyway, the guys on here suggested it to me a couple of years back, and I thoroughly enjoyed it, and learned an awful lot from it.
All the best, Marc.
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Yep, I've got that one. Great little book. The big Osprey is nice too.
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While I normally curse everything GW-related, their Gladiators book from Warhammer Historicals had some pretty good info...and then was immediately chopped when they closed up shop. Shame as I was planning on buying it. :-[
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H.M.Stanley You might be interested in this little hardback book: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Gladiator-Roman-Fighters-Unofficial-Manual/dp/0500051674/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1373578976&sr=8-1&keywords=gladiator+manual Its main focus isn't on the types gladiators and their pairings, though that is covered. Its a look at the life of the gladiator in his 'career'. Anyway, the guys on here suggested it to me a couple of years back, and I thoroughly enjoyed it, and learned an awful lot from it.
All the best, Marc.
Thanks Marc,
Funny enough i've bought that book, it should be delivered any day
Best,
James
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The Warhammer Gladiator book is still available if you shop around. You can normally pick it up on ebay. Naturally for an out of print book, you can expect to have to pay quite a bit for it, normally between £40/£45 excluding P&P. It is a great book though in my opinion.
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For anyone interested in the pairings, there is an excellent modern Youtube documentary entitled "Roman Colosseum - Unsolved History".
The pairings commentary begins at around 19:22 and is presented by Marcus Junkelmann, the current leading historian on all things gladiatorial.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dIOeKKz3HJc
It is this view of gladiatorial combat that I've based Blood on the Sands on.
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Great video - definitely interesting (and oddly...more what I'd seen).
I've just been enjoying the Spartacus show on TV and actually realizing how reasonably accurate it is (with regard to pairings, equipment, training, politics of the games etc.). It's bloody, sexy, good fun. :D
Thanks for the video though, saved it! :)
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... and that's my final Classics lesson of the year sorted lol Thanks, Furt.
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... and that's my final Classics lesson of the year sorted lol Thanks, Furt.
I live to serve sir... ;)
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So who would a Dimachaerus fight? If they're "elevated" gladiators, would they just fight the usual...a Thraex or Myrmillo etc?
Also, could a provocator fight someone other than an opposing provocator? I only ask because I have only one provocator model! lol
PS: Do you think it's safe to assume a Laquearius could be substituted for a Retiarius in most cases?
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From the little i've read, a Dimachaerus would more than likely fight another Dimachaerus, a Provocator another Provocator and yes, a Laquearius is a less popular kind of Retiarus.
But - see WillieB's post (above) ...
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For Blood on the Sands I have had to take a bit of "historical license" to make the pairings playable.
For e.g. a Provocator must fight a Provocator if an opponent is available, but should a "proper" opponent be unavailable there are a few unconventional pairings. So in a pinch a Provocator could be paired with a different opponent but will suffer in regards to winnings and fame etc gained after the fight.
In a campaign sense, it is hard to ensure the gladiators have historical pairings all the time.
So who would a Dimachaerus fight? If they're "elevated" gladiators, would they just fight the usual...a Thraex or Myrmillo etc?
Also, could a provocator fight someone other than an opposing provocator? I only ask because I have only one provocator model! lol
PS: Do you think it's safe to assume a Laquearius could be substituted for a Retiarius in most cases?
I believe a Dimachaerus may have fought a Murmillo somewhere? :?
Provocators wear the little breastplate, so theoretically pairing them with another type destroys the delicate balance between the armatura.
I believe the Lacqearius were known in the East, the "equivalent" of a Retiarius.
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I'd say the Dimachaerus is a heavy type, by the look of it likely derived from the Murmillo. Hence I would send him against light classes like Hoplomachi or Thraeces. That said, from what little we know, he's a later addition anyway, when various sub-styles (as well as the Laquearius for instance) became accepted and pairings were mixed up a bit.
Provocatores seem to have been another set part of the 'show programme' like the charioteers or the riders who were meant to fight only their own kind (and all, confusingly, on foot).
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Gotcha...well I managed to fix up one of my Myrmillo figures with a chest plate so he is now a Provocator...so I'll at least have a pair. I've only started reading the first of several Gladiator books I've ordered (used and cheap off amazon). Already seeing some interesting information (even if most of it is based on speculation). I'll post up anything interesting that I discover, though I'd imagine the majority of these books have been cited here.