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Miniatures Adventure => Railway Wargaming => Topic started by: Rivera on 13 July 2013, 06:02:39 PM

Title: American Civil War/Old West Train Build.
Post by: Rivera on 13 July 2013, 06:02:39 PM: I've been looking around for a while now for something to fit the role of a Confederate Armoured Train and came across the chappy below. It was £12.00 from a certain online auction site and a bit of a gamble as I had no real idea as to its scale and I haven't had anything to do with trains for quite a few years.

(http://img191.imageshack.us/img191/6770/dr5g.jpg)

I started off with the tender as it seemed easier and would give me time to do some research on the engine and get a plan outlined in my head. I removed all the electrical gubbins and filled the On/Off switch hole with Humbrol Model Filler and then sawed off the couplings. I also needed a cap for the water tank and found an old watch battery that fitted perfectly. The wheels were popped off and given a coat of Matt Enamel varnish as they're made from soft plastic and which made painting them alot easier.

(http://img811.imageshack.us/img811/4300/0ht8.jpg)

I found a couple of handrails in the spares box which came from an old 1:35 scale tank and glued them on at an angle.

(http://img40.imageshack.us/img40/3446/uu0f.jpg)

I then turned my attention to the engine itself. Once again I removed all the electrical gear and cut off the plastic screw supports and added a floor to the cab. The engine shell took a bit more work but I removed the filter from the smokestack, cut out the windows and added two at the front. I scraped off the moulded on handrail lines along the side of the boiler and sliced off the headlamp and added a larger box fitting to it.

(http://img109.imageshack.us/img109/889/qap2.jpg)

And this is where I've gotten to so far. The first coats of paint have been added and I need to get the filler out again.

(http://img42.imageshack.us/img42/9610/vhde.jpg)
Title: Re: American Civil War/Old West Train Build.
Post by: mysteriousbill on 13 July 2013, 06:26:42 PM: At first I thought it was a Goldlock Western Express, but the smokestack looks different. and the curved track isn't as curved. I wonder if the track would be compatible with Goldlock?

While the engine looks good the cars look a bit modern for ACW or the West
Title: Re: American Civil War/Old West Train Build.
Post by: former user on 13 July 2013, 06:49:48 PM: they had metal boxcars, but these looked a bit different. Tha tank car is too modern, but You can use the chassis to build the artillery waggon. You can add some armour to the loco, but don't have to. Building a wooden boxcar on the chassis shouldn't be a problem
Title: Re: American Civil War/Old West Train Build.
Post by: Rivera on 14 July 2013, 11:25:42 AM: @mysteriousbill The set just goes under the name of 'Classic Train Set' which I have a strange feeling might be made in China? The space between the rails is bang on 20mm and I have no idea if it's a made up gauge or no - is that the same as the Goldlock one?

The engine and tender appear to be pretty good for the period with, I believe, the first 2-6-0 locomotives being first constructed just prior to the war breaking out.

@former user The tank car will probably serve as the basis for either a flat car or for an armoured carriage, with the fuel tank already residing in my spares box. The other wagon could serve as a box car with the approprite cladding or another armoured carriage. Decisions, decisions :)

I have some info about armoured trains of the era which I've gleaned from the interweb but if you could point me in the right direction for more it would be much appreciated.
Title: Re: American Civil War/Old West Train Build.
Post by: former user on 14 July 2013, 12:08:08 PM: there is the Osprey book on the general development and tactics, but focussing on the interwar period
http://www.ospreypublishing.com/store/Armored-Trains_9781846032424
and the specialized ACW book on railway tactics
http://www.ospreypublishing.com/store/American-Civil-War-Railroad-Tactics_9781846034527

with many examples
that should suffice for any kind of wargaming in general, unless You want to dive in deeply on skirmish level historical authenticity, then You will need detailed research.

The downside of railway wargaming this period is that Union and Confederate rail ironclads were very different, so there isn't much of the usual interchangeability and not much capturing (AFAIK), unless You want to keep it basic and use a sandbag armoured flatcar, but this would be a bit boring ;)

If I may offer some personal advice - try to keep the armoured additions/superstructures separate from the basic chassis/model.

I've seen a lot of people here on LAF mangling their basic train models by encasing them in armour plating etc.
Without any doubt every single one became very attractive conversions, but sacrificing the model would have been unnecessary, especially when one can simply unscrew the superstructure and build a new one that doesn't require the civilian version underneath.
You will find following this hint especially useful when You want to game Old West with civilian trains and don't need to buy and paint/convert a new one. Building a tabletop train version is nothing You do on a weekend and pay out of the petty cash...

Building a wooden boxcar with plastic sheet is pretty straightforward even with the sliding doors, and the only difference are the firing slits - the additional armour was from the inside. Building it with removable roof to game inside appears tempting, but You will rarely place based figures in a cramped furnished railcar, apart from an opened door maybe. So whatever You do to the inside only needs to look good from the outside.

I don't think that anyone needs advice how to build a flatcar with plastic sheet. If You go for the improvised sandbags, make sure to fix everything including artillery piece and crew with magnets, since You will probably want to move it around.

Also one final advice - make the rolling stock as heavy as You can - not only will it give You the real feeling, it will stop You from knocking the models over, because anything other than Stephensons Rocket will necessary be larger as anything You know on the tabletop (apart from train models made especially "to fit" 28mm that have the usual scale compression and therefore look meek and unrealistic- but this is my personal oppinion).
Plus, realistic heft will protect You from the unrealistic impression that a 1/56 train travelling at even slow velocity can realistically brake over the length of a normal tabletop :D

this said, wargaming railway is a challenging attempt beyond the usual artillery range/MG effect "suspension of disbelief" issue, but I find it very interesting and rewarding if one is open to go beyond the usual wargaming conventions 8)
Title: Re: American Civil War/Old West Train Build.
Post by: Michi on 15 July 2013, 09:35:23 AM: Quote from: former user on 14 July 2013, 12:08:08 PM
this said, wargaming railway is a challenging attempt beyond the usual artillery range/MG effect "suspension of disbelief" issue, but I find it very interesting and rewarding if one is open to go beyond the usual wargaming conventions 8)

This! :D
Title: Re: American Civil War/Old West Train Build.
Post by: Rivera on 15 July 2013, 11:21:18 AM: @ former user Thanks for the links, I've managed to download a couple of PDF files of your recommendations and I'll give them a peruse this evening.

The wooden boxcar is a good probability for my next part of the build using the smaller of the two wagons and a flat car could be reasonably easy to make using the chassis? of the tanker wagon- I don't want to get too ambitious at this stage so a large calibre railway gun might be out of the question (costly for the barrel as well).

I know what you mean about 'heft' so I'll be putting some weights inside the engine and carriages.

@ former user and Michi Is there a bit of a problem with gaming trains then?

I'll post some more pics of my progress soon and try to remember to put in a 28mm figure to give some idea of the scale of the thing.
Title: Re: American Civil War/Old West Train Build.
Post by: former user on 15 July 2013, 11:55:49 AM: oh, no - there isn't any serious problem.

the only thing is that the normal "suspension of disbelief" that is necessary for wargaming gets a serious stretch when it comes to railway.
take the siege calibre columbiad for example. This thing would be on the tabletop, but fire somewhere else.

ACWis not that problematic given the lack of machineguns. But the average rail ironclad would have 2 navy pedestal artillery pieces and be mobile, plus be heavily encased in iron sheet armour and thus impenetrable to the average opponent's assets - a game winner unless You account for this in the opponent's army list and point allowance. it is a fortress on wheels

plus the size - I would assume Your whole set is at least 60cm long - take normal vehicle movement rules and calculate how many rounds it takes until the whole train is on the table if You start off-table. This of course depends on the speed. Now calculate how many rounds it takes to brake it down to standstill (considering realistic movement rules of course).
You end up either rushing over 2.5 m of tabletop in 2 rounds or deploying the train immobile as a terrain piece. The latter is not a problem, but You ask Yourself why You need a train ;)

and it goes on and on when You get to a 12 MG armoured railcar that can basically smash through interwar tanks by sheer weight.

trains simply outscale everything, and that was the reason they were employed in warfare.

the easiest way to start with is an immobile train.
Title: Re: American Civil War/Old West Train Build.
Post by: Michi on 15 July 2013, 12:15:11 PM: Quote from: former user on 15 July 2013, 11:55:49 AM
plus the size - I would assume Your whole set is at least 60cm long - take normal vehicle movement rules and calculate how many rounds it takes until the whole train is on the table if You start off-table. This of course depends on the speed. Now calculate how many rounds it takes to brake it down to standstill (considering realistic movement rules of course).
You end up either rushing over 2.5 m of tabletop in 2 rounds or deploying the train immobile as a terrain piece.

We handled it by "moving" terrain along the train instead of moving the 2m long train on a 2.5m long table.
This also works well for old west prarie indians on horses attacking a train.
It´s a lot of calculating (you move models forward or back along the train depending on their speed difference to the trains. Get´s even worse when the train is accelerating or slowing down, but it works.
Immobile terrain pieces (standing figures, trees, buildings) pass the train backwards at a distance equal to the trains speed. Got it?
Title: Re: American Civil War/Old West Train Build.
Post by: former user on 15 July 2013, 12:19:47 PM: way cool!! would have loved to take part in it :)
reminds me of the speeder bike game in the woods I saw once
Title: Re: American Civil War/Old West Train Build.
Post by: Rivera on 16 July 2013, 04:54:35 PM: A quick update - the tender and engine loosely assembled with the addition of a cradle for the bell, large handrail along the boiler with supports, small handrails to the rear of cab and glazing to the windows (not sure how accurate that is). I also carefully scraped the paint from the raised nameplate to show the original gold colour underneath.

(http://img14.imageshack.us/img14/8330/gij3.jpg)

A picture of the loco with a figure for comparison - it's a Perry ACW metal Confederate Trooper in 28mm and looks pretty close to me. He's been raised a tad off the surface as there is a plastic ridge underneath the rail sections.

(http://img689.imageshack.us/img689/1047/dh99.jpg)

All comments welcome :)
Title: Re: American Civil War/Old West Train Build.
Post by: FramFramson on 16 July 2013, 07:34:06 PM: Are you leaving the couplings off entirely then?
Title: Re: American Civil War/Old West Train Build.
Post by: Michi on 16 July 2013, 07:56:08 PM: The rods are upside down. Switch them left to right and they will fit. Otherwise very clean and nice engine!
Title: Re: American Civil War/Old West Train Build.
Post by: Rivera on 17 July 2013, 11:32:37 AM: @ FramFramson The couplings are undergoing construction at the mo with me fiddling about with sections of sprue and plastic card - hopefully they'll look something like in the picture below.

(http://img838.imageshack.us/img838/3506/xpmr.jpg)

@ Michi You know, I hadn't noticed that before and I must admit that I just left them as they came with the assembled train - I can only blame it on Gremlins :D

Please keep the comments and questions coming as they really do help me out.
Title: Re: American Civil War/Old West Train Build.
Post by: former user on 17 July 2013, 12:10:36 PM: looks pretty neat so far

when I made my train I wanted couplings too, but I made the experience that unless you really have a moving train, they cause more work than is necessary. Beware of the track curves
Title: Re: American Civil War/Old West Train Build.
Post by: Rivera on 18 July 2013, 12:33:04 PM: Thanks for the kind comments - a quick question though, could some nice person point me in the right direction for some white lettering in the form of either dry or waterslide transfers/decals for the tender and carriages? I'm not having a lot of luck in that department at the moment.
Title: Re: American Civil War/Old West Train Build.
Post by: Rivera on 21 July 2013, 11:33:15 AM: I'm having a quick break at the moment to do some research and figure out my next move.

In the meantime here's what will eventually be an armoured freight car. I've popped the bogies off so I could get a small screwdriver between the chassis and body to gently ease it off. The hopper will probably end up in the spares box with the lower framework used as the basis for the car itself. I've marked off some 1mm thick plastic card and scored some 2mm planking in it (using the back edge of a scalpel blade) for the siding. More on that later.

(http://img560.imageshack.us/img560/3729/3rg3.jpg)

And here's a picture of the disassembled oil tanker which will eventually be a flat car. The bogies were pinched off so I could access the screws to release the tank and the lugs on the framework were cut down level to eventually take the planking. I've two options as to the planking, I can either go the coffee-stirrer route or score some 2mm thick plastic card to make 3-4mm boards. Hmm .....

(http://img7.imageshack.us/img7/4241/tnjl.jpg)

Your thoughts, suggestions and criticisms are always welcome chaps :)
Title: Re: American Civil War/Old West Train Build.
Post by: former user on 21 July 2013, 11:52:59 AM: absolutely no ambition to slow down Your scratchbuilding enthusiasm ;)
but have a look here
http://www.auhagen-shop.de/product_info.php?info=p480_plastic-decor-sheets-wall-plank-natural-colour.html

in case You feel capable of reproducing the trucks, I could help You out with some wheels and axles
Title: Re: American Civil War/Old West Train Build.
Post by: FramFramson on 21 July 2013, 02:41:03 PM: A flat car is nice to have, as you can build additional add-ons to fit on top, such as a row of sandbags/rails for an open top infantry car, a sloping wooden gun shield around a large rail gun, or some other such stuff.
Title: Re: American Civil War/Old West Train Build.
Post by: Rivera on 25 July 2013, 07:47:52 AM: I've just been rediscovering the joys of working with plastic card, which I haven't used for some good few years now, and have constructed a bed for the flat car and the sides for the freight car. I would post some pictures but it would just be of slabs of white card .... I'll upload some pics when they're more presentable.

@ former user - thanks for the link to the sheets of plastic planking but I think that I'll give it a go myself first. If I mess up badly I'll certainly give them a shot. Wheels and axles would be great if you've the also got the chassis to go with them as I'm not that good a scratch builder :)

@FramFramson - the flat car is coming on apace and I'm a bit spoilt for choice when it comes to add-ons - there's sandbags, rails and wooden shields as you suggest and I've even heard mention of cotton bales as protection against enemy fire?
Title: Re: American Civil War/Old West Train Build.
Post by: FramFramson on 25 July 2013, 07:36:57 PM: Too bad you don't have one more car. If you could get a passenger car together that would give you plenty of additional options. It could disgorge troops as a scenario event (weak forces must hold off strong ones until reinforcements arrive by rail), or an objective to protect (troop transport) and some other options besides.
Title: Re: American Civil War/Old West Train Build.
Post by: former user on 25 July 2013, 07:50:25 PM: troops would have been transported in reinforced boxcars, not in passenger cars.
At least in combat trains
Title: Re: American Civil War/Old West Train Build.
Post by: Emir of Askaristan on 25 July 2013, 11:24:06 PM: Check out the Osprey "American Civil War Railroad Tactics" it's a great sourcebook and source for scenario ideas.
Title: Re: American Civil War/Old West Train Build.
Post by: bobblezbob on 21 October 2013, 09:10:53 PM: Just a note of interest to your train.
I've been looking around for a more modern train to convert to an armoured version for 28mm Spanish Civil War/Russian Civil War/VBCW gaming and I managed to pick this up at a local Family Bargains store last weekend :
http://chennai.olx.in/int-l-express-train-toy-set-for-sale-for-rs-200-negoshiable-iid-182711896
(I got a bigger set with 1 tanker, 2 of the closed goods wagons, a passenger coach, more track and a little station ! but cant find an example to link to)
I've noticed from the WIP shots that the Tender is identical though the packaging for the sets are completely different (same manufacturer or a knock off ?)
Have you got any up to date pics of your train please ?

Regards
Title: Re: American Civil War/Old West Train Build.
Post by: Rivera on 22 October 2013, 04:53:16 PM: Thanks for the interest in my train project bobblezbob but I ran out of steam on this one ::) It's sitting around waiting for me to get over my latest Sci-fi venture.

The tender does look very similar and I have the feeling that there's a factory somewhere in China that produces these trains with variations on packaging etc.

I'll probably be putting another train up for sale soon in the Bazaar of Obscurities section so keep an eye open for that one.