Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => The Second World War => Topic started by: Conquistador on 18 July 2013, 02:09:13 AM
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Okay, I am trying to do several completely contradictory ::) things here:
1) Avoid another 25+ mm project if possible (although my adobes might be proxy for Manila... No... just say no.)
2) Down size my collection for retirement 8) :)
3) have some Japanese/US Army battles in the PTO early to mid-war era possibly - small battle or large skirmish o_o :o ???
Sooooo...
What about the dreaded "new scale" path (I don't think I can find these in my favorite 3 or 6 mm anyway...) of 15 mm?
If I stayed in non-urban battles could I pull this off in 15/18 mm?
I have no idea if this is remotely possible hence my asking here before searching (low battery on laptop anyway...)
Gracias,
Glenn
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Good points all, Scurv has.
But, running the risk of being pedantic here, FoW is 15mm, so closer to 1/100 as opposed to 1/72. ::)
Still; there IS a huge range of 1/72 vehicles out there, which matches up with the (growing in popularity) 20mm ranges, so perhaps that route might be interesting? It does mean yet another scale though... :D
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So true... lol
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Avoid FOW stuff then Glenn, bigger but cheaper works for everything except girls.
:-*
lol lol lol
Usually true, (OT Alert!) although my second wife was 350 plus (emphasis on plus) pounds and if she could have just not been so controlling of everything I think we could have worked things out. I still hear from her at times and am glad she is a happy LDS stepmother of many kids. For a rebound marriage it had more potential than most but :'( not enough reality in the relationship.
(Yelling at myself, not you guys and gals,) BACK TO WARGAMES:
I had not thought of 1/72nd stuff. Besides the many troops and vehicles I think you could crib in 1/76th or even 187th scale stuff if it didn't exist in 1/72nd. I will search for Japanese and US Army (I suspect like in lead there will be many Marines and ETO Army troops...)
Right now I am holding off buying anything that doesn't complete a unit TO&E (even my dwarf figures) and have avoided a new scale/era/genre for multiple months. We won't talk about the 4 KS/etc. earlier this summer I became involved in except to say it was SF terrain, complete VSF infantry squads, VSF Heavy Weapons/Arty, and some gnomes for the wife. :-X 8) ;)
Gracias,
Glenn
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<snip>
Finally you are retiring. Apart from shooting the neighbourhood kids with a BB gun when they stray onto your lawn what are you going to do to fill all of that new free time up with?
<snip>
Xeriscaping makes it unlikely I will have a lawn (Rio Rancho allows a small (3' x 3' ?) plot of non-xeriscaped land in the baCK yard IIRC.) lol
Gracias,
Glenn
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this onrushing retirement of yours is messing with your head dude.
In answer to your questions/comments
1: You are a minis collector, You have as much chance of not getting into another project as someone landing on the moon again in 3 years. Lot o talk but its never going to happen.
GLENN: It's actually happening, I have less figures (even with some filling in buys) currently then last time this year. And I mostly have been putting on Ebay the unpopular or $.999 special type figures. There is hope
2: see comment one. Lead piles only grow never get smaller. Even if you sell off most of it it will just come back again in the form of new minis and new projects. There is no escape!
Glenn: Space considerations will limit the size of the collection, I assure you!
3: Do it in 1/72 plastics cheap as chips and there is a massive range in that scale these days.
<snip>
Glenn: Looking at these but there seem to be some real (posing, size, weapons, historical appearance) issues with each set from the reviews I read.
Finally you are retiring. Apart from shooting the neighbourhood kids with a BB gun when they stray onto your lawn what are you going to do to fill all of that new free time up with?
Glenn: Explore the USA, with wife, as health allows, make bead jewelry (my profitable addiction,) and learn Spanish (again, but this time I don't let it lapse into the state it is now.)
Look if you really want to cause yourself a conundrum then try dovetail all the new potential projects into as few minis as possible. You could do US vs Japan then also use the US guys to fight a zombie outbreak/ alien invasion that sort of thing.
Glenn: Pretty much what my adobe pueblo scenery allows me to do currently.
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Avoid FOW stuff then Glenn, bigger but cheaper works for everything except girls.
But there isn't much Japanese stuff available in 15mm or 20mm.
I'd probably opt for 15mm on the grounds that it takes up a lot less space, for storage (especially terrain) and for gaming.
Avoid FoW - there are plenty of other rules. We play PBI locally, company sized infantry action on a table 4 foot square.
For figures, Peter Pig has Japanese that paint up nicely:
http://www.peterpig.co.uk/japanese.htm
but they only have USMC to oppose them, although they do have British 14th Army for fighting in Burma.
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Oh I dunno, SHQ has lovely ranges for 20mm Japanese AND Us Marines in infantry, and vehcles and cannon too. I feel they're greatly underappreciated.
EDIT: oh you didn't look for Marines, sorry.
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Oh I dunno, SHQ has lovely ranges for 20mm Japanese AND Us Marines in infantry, and vehcles and cannon too. I feel they're greatly underappreciated.
EDIT: oh you didn't look for Marines, sorry.
No sweat.
I will just have to win the lottery and commission US Army PTO troops. Oh, wait, I don't gamble... ;) lol
Gracias,
Glenn
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Um, the SHQ pictures of the 1942-1944 US Infantry (not USMC) on the website are so blurry and out off focus it immediately turned me off - are there a websites with better pictures of these?
Gracias,
Glenn
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Which ones you want - I might have some bags stashed aways someplace? For regular US infantry with parsons jacket etc, you can't beat AB figures - but they're not cheap. What sort of kit did they use in PTO?
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I like the Osprey Men-at-Arms 342, The US Army in World War II (1) The Pacific:
Page 11 "... in 1938 this [blue denim fatigue pants, shirt and "Daisy Mae" hat] was changed to a medium weight sage green cloth woven in Herringbonr twill (HBT) pattern... The green of the original HBTswas found to fade quickly in use to an unsightly light shade."
"... Flapped breast pockets and exposed blackened steel '13 star' (or sometimes plain plastic) buttons.
M1942 first of four patterns
M1943 more common
first version unpleated pockets
next version had a pinched sort of pleat
rare was the M1945? version
First pattern HBT trousers sideseam and two rear pockets of civilian style
Second (M1943) thigh cargo pockets and sideseam pockets but no rear ones
Last had pleated thigh cargo pockets
There was a HBT one-piece 'jumpsuit' - designed to be worn loose over other clothing
Camo one piece versions came in 1943 in SW Pacific improved into a two piece suit in 1944
Most common jacket in CBI/North Pacific was various Versions of the 1941 Parsons (not called that at the time.)
Helmets started as the M1917A1 'dishpan' then by mid-1942 the M1 steel pot was widely available.
web gear almost always included two canteens, a jungle aid pouch, and a firdt aid kit. Also common were musette bags worn as packs.
Springfields were used until replaced by the Garand.
The M1936 web suspenders were very common and appear to have be very appreciated for attaching gear.
Gracias,
Glenn
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20mm is definitely the way forward for WW2 and SHQ do make some very nice minis although this isn't always reflected very well on their site.
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Could you use the SHQ Marines with steel helmets? That is, without the helmet covers? I cant find any useful pics by googling Army in the PTO. But the SHQ US Army all have parsons jackets, so they're probably not very useful? Of course, none of the SHQ US troops have kettle helmets, as far as I can remember. Maybe headswaps from the British ranges?
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Could you use the SHQ Marines with steel helmets? That is, without the helmet covers? I cant find any useful pics by googling Army in the PTO. But the SHQ US Army all have parsons jackets, so they're probably not very useful? Of course, none of the SHQ US troops have kettle helmets, as far as I can remember. Maybe headswaps from the British ranges?
Other than my Father's (only) history books - "Veteran's of Foreign Wars memorial edition Pictorial History of World War II Volume two The War in The Pacific" (1951) The Osprey is my 2nd best source. He was USCG in WW 2.
Gracias,
Glenn
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Double checking my few sources - Parson's Jacket (not called that then) was all that was available besides ponchos (copied from USMC,) greatcoats (not common even in Alaska,) raincoat (no pictures of them,) and the cold weather gear the Kiska/Attu forces wore. It (Parson's Jacket) was worn in the PTO - it is in more pictures than I expected.
Gracias,
Glenn
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Ok, shall take a few pics of unpainted SHQ GIs then? What about the helmets, are you doing pre 1942?
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Ok, shall take a few pics of unpainted SHQ GIs then? What about the helmets, are you doing pre 1942?
Pictures would be superb!
Grandiose plan follows:
Starting with the Army arriving for the later combat at Guadalcanal or New Guinea then back to the original battle for the Philippines (I will have to find different figures obviously for that part) and will gradually think about going forward to the US Army's defense of the Empress Augusta Bay enclaves.
Historical inspiration for that madness follows:
Assume all the usual caveats about Wikipedia...
http://www.historyplace.com/unitedstates/pacificwar/timeline.htm
October 13, 1942 - The first U.S. Army troops, the 164th Infantry Regiment, land on Guadalcanal.
http://militaryhistory.about.com/od/worldwarii/a/wwiipacngburmch.htm
Allied Counterattacks on New Guinea
Reinforced by the arrival fresh American and Australian troops, the Allies launched a counteroffensive in the wake of the Japanese retreat. Pushing over the mountains, Allied forces pursued the Japanese to their heavily defended coastal bases at Buna, Gona, and Sanananda. Beginning on November 16, Allied troops assaulted the Japanese positions and in bitter, close-quarters, fighting slowly overcame them. The final Japanese strongpoint at Sanananda fell on January 22, 1943. Conditions in the Japanese base were horrific as their supplies had run out and many had resorted to cannibalism.
<snip> With momentum shifting, MacArthur planned a major offensive against the Japanese bases at Salamaua and Lae. This attack was to be part of Operation Cartwheel, an Allied strategy for isolating Rabaul. Moving forward in April 1943, Allied forces advanced towards Salamaua from Wau and were later supported by landings to the south at Nassau Bay in late June. While fighting continued around Salamaua, a second front was opened around Lae. Named Operation Postern, the attack on Lae began with airborne landings at Nadzab to the west and amphibious operations to the east. With the Allies threatening Lae, the Japanese abandoned Salamaua on September 11. After heavy fighting around the town, Lae fell four days later. While fighting continued on New Guinea for the rest of the war, it became a secondary theater as SWPA shifted its attention to planning the invasion of the Philippines.
The New Guinea campaign holds lots of potential:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Guinea_campaign
http://www.history.army.mil/brochures/new-guinea/ng.htm
from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bougainville_Campaign
On 15 December 1943, the I Marine Amphibious Corps was replaced by the Army's XIV Corps[7] and on 28 December, the 3rd Marine Division by the Americal Division. The XIV Corps defended the beachhead against a major Japanese counterattack from 9–17 March 1944, at Hill 700 and Cannon Hill, which were defended by the Ohio 37th Infantry Division, and Hill 260, which was defended by the Americal Division. The counterattack was defeated with heavy losses for the Japanese army, which then withdrew the majority of its force into the deep interior and to the north and south ends of Bougainville.[22]
On 5 April 1944, the Americal Division's 132nd Infantry Regiment, after establishing patrol sweeps along Empress Augusta Bay, successfully launched an attack to capture the Japanese-held village of Mavavia. Two days later, while continuing a sweep for enemy forces, the Regiment encountered prepared enemy defences, where they destroyed about 20 Japanese pillboxes using pole charges and bazookas. Later, the 132nd, together with elements of the Fiji Defence Force, was tasked with securing the heights west of Saua River. The regiment and its allies captured Hills 155, 165, 500, and 501 in fierce fighting that lasted until 18 April, when the last of the Japanese defenders were killed or driven off.[23]
<snip>The Americans were reinforced by the 93rd Infantry Division,[24] the first African American infantry unit to see action in World War II.<snip>
That pretty much is where I ideally want to go. Emphasis on Infantry actions, one or more platoons sized fighting.
Gracias,
Glenn
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Played two more games of Bolt Action (2nd all armor with modified rules) and I sam seriously considering Multiple Squads to Platoon (reinforced) games using these rules.
All the locals us 20 mm for Bolt Action but I should check with people in New Mexico to see what is playing in my future city of record...
Gracias,
Glenn
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Sorry I took my time, but here's a few snaps of the minis I got for comparison:
(http://imageshack.com/a/img443/4928/l9bw.jpg)
(http://imageshack.com/a/img543/8752/p39p.jpg)
(http://imageshack.com/a/img194/5329/fi9h.jpg)
Wrote the maker under each mini. The first is kinda summarum of the different makes, and the next two have first AB & SHQ USM, and then SHQ GI & Sgt Major.
Sgt Major minis might be a good option*, as they gto US army suitable for PTO, they even got the Brit style helmets there. I have included here a couple of SGT Rangers which also might work? Some of them are without jackets, just shirts and sometimes rolled sleeves etc. They go pretty well with SHQ GIs, I think. You might also consider Sgt Major Japanese, as the SHQ ones somewhat different in proportions, slightly slimmer, like the SHQ Marines. But all of these will mix, if you're not overly fussy about it.
Included some AB GI's too for comparison. I also have some CP/TQD GI's but these are much taller, so I didnt include them here.
*The ones I got are pretty good, but the pics on the Sgt Major site look a bit iffy, I wonder if they do justice to the minis?
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Scurv,
That kind of stuff doesn't make it into the history books! :o
Wasn't there an arc in Doonsbury ::) about a VC and an American soldier (probably met over some beer stored in a river for cooling) interacting? :` Though that was not of the same caliber as what you mentioned. ;)
There is always a small (hopefully) percentage of those who put their personal advancement ahead of the troops. :-[ >:(
Of course scrounging is an honorable ::) tradition in the USMC. I come from a USMC oriented family (Dad USCG in WW2 and I went USAF during Vietnam (never made it out of Sacramento after training) so I guess we were the exceptions.)
Scrounging is a talent... Black marketing is a crime...
Gracias,
Glenn
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Sorry I took my time, but here's a few snaps of the minis I got for comparison:
(http://imageshack.com/a/img443/4928/l9bw.jpg)
(http://imageshack.com/a/img543/8752/p39p.jpg)
(http://imageshack.com/a/img194/5329/fi9h.jpg)
Wrote the maker under each mini. The first is kinda summarum of the different makes, and the next two have first AB & SHQ USM, and then SHQ GI & Sgt Major.
Sgt Major minis might be a good option*, as they gto US army suitable for PTO, they even got the Brit style helmets there. I have included here a couple of SGT Rangers which also might work? Some of them are without jackets, just shirts and sometimes rolled sleeves etc. They go pretty well with SHQ GIs, I think. You might also consider Sgt Major Japanese, as the SHQ ones somewhat different in proportions, slightly slimmer, like the SHQ Marines. But all of these will mix, if you're not overly fussy about it.
Included some AB GI's too for comparison. I also have some CP/TQD GI's but these are much taller, so I didnt include them here.
*The ones I got are pretty good, but the pics on the Sgt Major site look a bit iffy, I wonder if they do justice to the minis?
Very helpful and much appreciated.
Gracias,
Glenn
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you are going to need some aussies if you are doing new guinea. <snip>
That is another thing that is not mentioned much in histories. I am sure it happened that Allied units were both involved in the same firefight but history books make it sound (and maybe it usually was) like there were parallel fights going on in the same battle.
That may have happened more when one ally was "relieved/supported/reinforced/rescued" by another ally in/during a fire fight? There have been more than a few "lost battalions" like the one rescued in Italy by Nisei American soldiers.
I doubt I could do justice for the Aussie/other PTO Allied forces initially. And the faux australian accents by some of my fellow gamers... Of course the Brit turned Canadian turned American in our group has a pretty good sense of dialect/accent.
Gracias,
Glenn
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Maybe eventually I can have a scenario where Aussies on one edge and US Army on the opposite edge try and eliminate a pocket of Japanese troops...
Gracias,
Glenn
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Well my two supplements for Bolt Action arrived separately today - dispatched 06 August according to seller. Rules arrived about a week ago.
IJA/IJN troops look interesting after a quick skim.
USA/USMC book is very ETO focused for USA. USMC, while popular isn't of high interest personally. Appears to be a high quality production. Might order TFL rules coming out this month before buying miniatures.
Maybe get more reading in-depth after visiting Mom-in-law in nursing home tonight.
Gracias,
Glenn