Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => The Great War => Topic started by: Arlequín on 10 May 2008, 10:06:58 AM
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I managed to find these descriptions of the British contribution to the Salonika Campaign 1916-1918;
http://www.1914-1918.net/salonika.htm (http://www.1914-1918.net/salonika.htm)
http://memorabilia.homestead.com/files/Salonika_and_Macedonia_1916_18.htm (http://memorabilia.homestead.com/files/Salonika_and_Macedonia_1916_18.htm)
I would have thought this was the scenario par excellence for the WW1 gamer, it has almost everyone involved; British, French, Serbian, Greek, German, AH, Italians, Bulgarians, Turks and Russians.
Certainly there is a lot of scope for the unusual... iirc, the Bulgarian uniform was remarkably similar to the Russian one, in style at least. Even the 'Balkanmützen' might get a look in.
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There are actually Bulgarian minis available (albeit for a Balkan Wars range) from Tiger Miniatures. To my, admittedly untrained eye, they look identical to the colour plate of the Bulgar soldier (at the 1918 battle of Doiran) in the Osprey. They also make Greeks.
So you could game it now. Great War Miniatures 1914 Brits would do for the 1915 advance into (and retreat out of) Serbia. GWM late war Brits could be used for the battles of Doiran and the operations in the Struma valley.
Also various tropical Brits could be used for skirmishes and patrols in the summer months in the intervening period.
I'm reading a book on this topic at the minute, and pondering whether to take a leap in this direction when I finish one of my other ongoing projects.
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I wonder how the figures work together? Any idea anyone?
Certainly there is a variety of troops compared with the relatively vanilla Western Front.
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There is a lot of figures available to use in such scenarios.
Now we need only: a couple of Greeks in adrian helmet, some English nurses and doctors, few exotic french colonials and ofcourse Serbians and Montenegrin infantry, plus some naval/marine types.
Hope that Tiger miniatures will produce in short time some more troop types.
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There are actually Bulgarian minis available (albeit for a Balkan Wars range) from Tiger Miniatures. To my, admittedly untrained eye, they look identical to the colour plate of the Bulgar soldier (at the 1918 battle of Doiran) in the Osprey. They also make Greeks.
So you could game it now. Great War Miniatures 1914 Brits would do for the 1915 advance into (and retreat out of) Serbia. GWM late war Brits could be used for the battles of Doiran and the operations in the Struma valley.
Also various tropical Brits could be used for skirmishes and patrols in the summer months in the intervening period.
I'm reading a book on this topic at the minute, and pondering whether to take a leap in this direction when I finish one of my other ongoing projects.
Hi Dylan,
Until recently due to my own ignorance I didn't give this Sideshow a thought. I've a gaming friend who is Sebian and very proud of his family's military history. I started looking further into this period and now I've a greater interest and one that will now see a project in the future starting with Serbians and Austro-Hungarians. I've already requested some sample packs from Battle-Honours for them both. Battle-Honour Russians will now also be on the list. I'm thinking of the cost factor.
I've enough figures to do the later part of the war, but not the early part. That is French, British (Slouch hat) Germans and Turks.
What is the book you are reading?
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There is a lot of figures available to use in such scenarios.
Now we need only: a couple of Greeks in adrian helmet, some English nurses and doctors, few exotic french colonials and ofcourse Serbians and Montenegrin infantry, plus some naval/marine types.
Hope that Tiger miniatures will produce in short time some more troop types.
Hi Arg,
Thankyou for your thoughts and comments on the campaign. Hopefully we may see some of these figures come to light in the coming years - God Willing!
Old Glory do some nice medical staff for the various countries. I was given a German doctor from the Old Glory WW1 German Character pack. He was painted up as a naval doctor and now I'm thinking he may become an Army doctor.
I read on the TMP that someone is about to release a book on the Balkan Wars. Can anyone provide an update on this?
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There's a reasonable little tome by Alan Wakefield and Simon Moody 'Under The Devils Eye .Britains Forgotten Army at Salonika 1915-18'. includes some good OBs. Came out about 4 years ago. The official history has more detail.
As an aside I do wish publishers would stop tacking 'Forgotten Army' on to every title. The only reason it's 'forgotten' is that the average punter has the historical knowledge of a goldfish. What next 'Eighth Army, Britain's Forgotten Army in the Western Desert'?
The beauty of Salonika is that if you have forces for the Western Front or the Middle East they can be used in a Salonika scenario. For the Brits it was pretty static between the big battles for Doiran but there are some attractive skirmish actions and some lively brigade sized battles taking outposts in the Struma Valley. The Bulgarians as a whole tended to be pretty passive.
The Tiger minis really make this a reality. Pulp also have some Seebattalion in peaked caps that could serve as Bulgarians if the Tiger's don't suit tastes. Good excuse to buy some of Brigade's mountain guns too. Who hasn't seen the famous photo of the gunner firing a 2.75" mountain gun being shot at the moment the breech is in full recoil?
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Just in case you haven't............ :)
http://www.gwpda.org/memoir/Salonica/images/sal05.jpg
Oh BTW there's a nice little web page or collection therof on Salonika here:
http://www.gwpda.org/memoir/Salonica/salon1.htm
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Another interesting unit in use for Salonika [Thessaloniki] is the brigade games russian shock troops, russians in adrian helmet.
Many-many years ago I saw a photo in a history magazine showing this unit. Reading more books covering some WW1 or RCW I never saw another photo with a Russian unit in adrian helmets bearing the imperial Russian eagle. I don't know their contribution however.
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Thankyou Carlos and Arg for your contributions. They are all extremely helpful and will go along way towards the campaign.
Oh by the way Carlos, I was at the Australian War Memorial Annex at Mitchell and during our tour with the assistant curator Paul Taylor in the artillery section I saw a French MLE 1897 Field gun that was captured by the Turks. Its not a Canet as I thought it maybe, but a 1897 FG. I'll be looking at going back there later this year and I'll take some photos of it.
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"I read on the TMP that someone is about to release a book on the Balkan Wars. Can anyone provide an update on this?"
Perhaps you are thinking of this book? I picked it up at Cold Wars. Reads like a very beefy Oprey Campaign book.
1-85490 Vachkov, Alexander BALKAN WAR 1912-1913, THE (16) color plates with sixty-four uniform illustof Bulgarian/Serbian/Greek & Turkish forces; manyb/w maps/illust/drawings; campaign history.1 vol, 160 pgs 2005 BULGARIA, ANGEIA PUBS
NEW-softcover ......$40.00
http://onmilitarymatters.com/catalog.php?period=1912
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Helen, the book is the one mentioned by Carlos: "Under the Devil's Eye."
The weather has been so nice that I haven't been much in the mood for reading lately, though, and so haven't touched it for a week or so.
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Hi Guys,
Thanks for the tip on the book. I'll look for at my discount bookshop to see if they have any left.
Thanks again.
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A few months ago I watched a French movie that started out in Salonika, with some nice action sequences based around raiding. It features a group of killer commando type French guys who were a bunch of misfits not used to normal discipline. The end of the war presented a serious problem for the members of the unit, as they could not adjust to peace. They weren't sent home right away, as there was a French troop commitment in the Balkans that lasted a long time after the end of the war. Sorry I can't remember the title and director. Does anybody else remember this movie?
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That sounds like Capitaine Conan, by Bertrand Tavernier :
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0115822/
meow,
Matt
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Have to point out that "Under the Devil's Eye" is about the British experience in Salonika. It is not an overall history of the campaign. Anyone buying it hoping to find out what the French, Greeks and others were up to will be somewhat disappointed, as they are only mentioned in passing.
It's a bit annoying, but it does clearly state this on the cover.
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Thanks Poly,
I did read that this was the case.
Many thanks again 8)
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Another interesting unit in use for Salonika [Thessaloniki] is the brigade games russian shock troops, russians in adrian helmet.
Many-many years ago I saw a photo in a history magazine showing this unit. Reading more books covering some WW1 or RCW I never saw another photo with a Russian unit in adrian helmets bearing the imperial Russian eagle. I don't know their contribution however.
From you description, they are probably troops of the Russian Expeditionary Force that was detached to the french army as part of a trade deal between France and Russia (russian manpower against french equipment). The troops were transported and equipped by France, hence the adrian helmets with the imperial eagle. Made up of poorly trained and unexperienced troops the Special Russian Brigades were used as normal line infantry and were not really considered as shock troops by the french high command.
Out of the eight Special Russian Brigades initially planned only four were formed :
- the 2nd and 4th brigades were sent to Salonika where they served on the front line of the French sector until they were disbanded during the russian revolution.
- the 1st and 3rd brigades were sent in France where they saw action during the Chemin de Dames offensive in 1917 and the second battle of the Marne in 1918.
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There are actually Bulgarian minis available (albeit for a Balkan Wars range) from Tiger Miniatures. To my, admittedly untrained eye, they look identical to the colour plate of the Bulgar soldier (at the 1918 battle of Doiran) in the Osprey.
They look ok for me too. Of course, a perfectionist could always swap their heads, as the Bulgarian front line troops were equipped with German helmets.
Now we need only: a couple of Greeks in adrian helmet
Looks like another head swap job. I’ve never seen a Greek adrian helmet so I don’t know what the front plate looks like, but perhaps that makes no difference at this scale.
few exotic french colonials
Zouaves, legionnaires, chasseurs d’afrique, Senegalese tirailleurs, marsoins (naval troops),… and some Chasseurs Alpins.
Hope that Tiger miniatures will produce in short time some more troop types.
I see they now make irregular/partisan Bulgarians, which could be used for the comitadj (Macedonian partisans serving the central powers) and even the andartes (Greek (i.e. Venizlios) partisans serving the allies).
I've enough figures to do the later part of the war, but not the early part. That is French, British (Slouch hat) Germans and Turks.
If your French are painted in mustard kaki then they’ll be ok for the early part too. By the time the French reached Salonika / Serbia they were already equipped with the adrian helmet.
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They look ok for me too. Of course, a perfectionist could always swap their heads, as the Bulgarian front line troops were equipped with German helmets.
Is that right? I had heard so somewhere, but nothing in the Osprey mentions this as far as I can remember. The chap pictured is said to be a representation of a Bulgar soldier at the 1918 battle of Doiran. Just goes to show you have to be careful basing your painting plans on a single Osprey colour plate.
Still, head-swapping some Jerry tin hats on some of them might be fun, and add a little variety. Maybe I'll get some nice cheap Old Glory Germans just for that purpose.
(Of course, for 1915 and at least part of 1916 they wouldn't have them anyway.)
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I've enough figures to do the later part of the war, but not the early part. That is French, British (Slouch hat) Germans and Turks.
If your French are painted in mustard kaki then they’ll be ok for the early part too. By the time the French reached Salonika / Serbia they were already equipped with the adrian helmet. [/quote]
Actually, my Brigade Games WW1 French are wearing adrian helmets and wearing horizon blue uniforms. I did see a photograph of a French soldier dressed in horizon blue uniform and wearing kepi.
Also the Brigade Games US Army coloured troops in adrian helmet and US uniforms could be used for later Serbians etc as they were supplied with US material.
Just a thought!
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That sounds like Capitaine Conan, by Bertrand Tavernier :
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0115822/
meow,
Matt
YES! That's it! Thanks, Matt.
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They look ok for me too. Of course, a perfectionist could always swap their heads, as the Bulgarian front line troops were equipped with German helmets.
Is that right? I had heard so somewhere, but nothing in the Osprey mentions this as far as I can remember. The chap pictured is said to be a representation of a Bulgar soldier at the 1918 battle of Doiran. Just goes to show you have to be careful basing your painting plans on a single Osprey colour plate.
I read about it in a book written by the French historian/novelist Pierre Miquel, but I haven't seen any photographic evidence. The Germans equipped the bulgarian army so it makes sense to assume they handed out some coal buckets as well as guns. I guess that in the field it was mix of both; helmets for when the s**t hit the fan and soft caps for the calmer periods.
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It seems that there was 2 types of Greek adrian helmet.
1.- typical french grenade
2.- the greek crest crowned
in the initial part after the reorganisation of the greek army by the French in 1917 some units wore a complete (horizon blue) uniform. So, it must be assumed that the helmet was a typical french. (My grandfather who served with the Archipelagos division had a horizon blue uniform. This survived until the 1960's and now I dont know)
A little later it is obvious they have ordered new helmets with the greek crest.
As I am not a helmet expert, I have to search more
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I've enough figures to do the later part of the war, but not the early part. That is French, British (Slouch hat) Germans and Turks.
If your French are painted in mustard kaki then they’ll be ok for the early part too. By the time the French reached Salonika / Serbia they were already equipped with the adrian helmet. [/quote]
Actually, my Brigade Games WW1 French are wearing adrian helmets and wearing horizon blue uniforms. [/quote]
It's just that the French considered the operations in Salonika as a colonial front. So, in line with the GHQ's logic, the forces of l'armee d'orient were equipped with the colonial kaki uniforms. The mustard coloured tint was chosen to make them visually different from the british uniforms as the english top brass were apparently not very happy with the idea of french troops wearing kaki drab.
I did see a photograph of a French soldier dressed in horizon blue uniform and wearing kepi.
It probably dates from late 1915 early 1916. The new horizon blue uniforms came into service roughly at the same time as the new adrian helmets. You know how good we frogs are when it comes to organisation, so it shouldn't surprise you that some units received their new uniforms well before their new headgear. Apparently the men prefered the kepi to the helmet as they thought it made them look more advantageous in the eyes of the dames... ;)
Also the Brigade Games US Army coloured troops in adrian helmet and US uniforms could be used for later Serbians etc as they were supplied with US material.
Morphological considerations put aside, why not. At least those figures don't have the cloth helmet covers... ;) However, I thought it was the brits and the frogs who provided the doughboys with all their hardware.
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A little more research:
a third version of the Greek adrian helmet, no crest or insignia at all.
As soon as I find more I will advise
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I've enough figures to do the later part of the war, but not the early part. That is French, British (Slouch hat) Germans and Turks.
If your French are painted in mustard kaki then they’ll be ok for the early part too. By the time the French reached Salonika / Serbia they were already equipped with the adrian helmet.
Actually, my Brigade Games WW1 French are wearing adrian helmets and wearing horizon blue uniforms. [/quote]
It's just that the French considered the operations in Salonika as a colonial front. So, in line with the GHQ's logic, the forces of l'armee d'orient were equipped with the colonial kaki uniforms. The mustard coloured tint was chosen to make them visually different from the british uniforms as the english top brass were apparently not very happy with the idea of french troops wearing kaki drab.
I did see a photograph of a French soldier dressed in horizon blue uniform and wearing kepi.
It probably dates from late 1915 early 1916. The new horizon blue uniforms came into service roughly at the same time as the new adrian helmets. You know how good we frogs are when it comes to organisation, so it shouldn't surprise you that some units received their new uniforms well before their new headgear. Apparently the men prefered the kepi to the helmet as they thought it made them look more advantageous in the eyes of the dames... ;)
Also the Brigade Games US Army coloured troops in adrian helmet and US uniforms could be used for later Serbians etc as they were supplied with US material.
Morphological considerations put aside, why not. At least those figures don't have the cloth helmet covers... ;) However, I thought it was the brits and the frogs who provided the doughboys with all their hardware.
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Yep you are most certainly on the button here. I must have been thinking of Romanians or someone else with being supplied US gear.
I'd have to have a close look at the Hellfighters from Brigade to see how close they could be used for the Serbians. They have French web equipment, French rifle and helmet, and some of the French trench raiders without greatcoat could also be considered!
Thanks again.
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Continuing on with the Serbians and as someone has mentioned using the Shock Troops from Brigade Games as Serbians in Russian uniform. Actually any of the Brigade Games Russians would suffice as Serbians fighting at Salonkia. Mix in some Serbians from Battle-Honours and you have a lovely force.