Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => Age of Myths, Gods and Empires => Topic started by: Prof.Witchheimer on August 12, 2013, 08:58:56 AM
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Well. It's being a long time since I've played big Ancients armies. Warhammer Ancient Battles was my rulebook. My bases were square. I have enjoyed my games, the world was a proper place, everything was easy and good. The things have changed a bit since then. One day I've discovered that I'm actually able to use my coins or washers for basing and I liked how this came out. It was the day when my square-based armies died.
Now I wonder if there is a rules set out there providing a similiar tactical and strategical depth, also kind of regiment formations and ranks and allowing playing big (up to 100 models or more) but round-based armies. I just don't want to rebase my miniatures again and I don't like the square look.
I don't think SAGA could be that game as I am really wanting to play regiments again.
Also Impetus wouldn't be my cup of tea, for the same reason, I don't like their kind of basing.
Has anyone perhaps experienced playing WAB that round-based way? Any ideas? I hope there is a way making this because I still like the rules and would love to use the countless supplement books I've bought at the time.
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With a simple mdf base-board cut to hold circular bases, I don't see why you couldn't simply play whatever you were playing....bases don't matter that much, other than aesthetics and making it a bit easier to pack them in together.
Go nuts.
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yes, I could, and actually it seems to be made already:
http://web.archive.org/web/20060116192700/www.lochagos.com/gallery/mac/epirote_army.html
(http://web.archive.org/web/20060116192700im_/http://www.lochagos.com/gallery/mac/epirote_right.jpg)
And I had to take a second look to recognise the bases are round.
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I think trays are the way to go Alex. I am so very much with you on the charm of individually based figures. But for big battles, you do need a way of ranking them up...
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Have a look at these Alex he will do custom bases if he doesn't already carry the ones you want and his prices are very reasonable http://war-bases.co.uk/index.php?route=product/category&path=121
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I would like to second Warbases, very nice folk and they make lovely bases.
Keith
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Would also go for warbases, very good service and prices. They are also always willing to do custom bases and projects.
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I am sure Jimbibbly could make something custom for you in acrylic, Alex.
The best thing with that is he has varying thicknesses of acrylic to match the bases that you already use.
I will be bothering him for the same when I get around to my SAGA project, as I am hoping to be able to use the same figures in ranked-up regiments for Oldhammer.
;)
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Yep, I went round for my Aztec WAB army, and my Trojans as well. My trays are made by LITKO, great service, great product.
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Litko does good stuff too, but cripes they're expensive. If you're in the states (which I don't think you are...) I have a buddy who also has a laser cut shop and could be convinced to do some up for cheaper. There are a lot of companies who'll do that stuff for you. I think 4Ground even does some also.
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Well, you *can* pay a bunch of money for such bases, and if you're incline to support folks who are trying to make a living making them for you, that's fine. But you don't have to.
The following is likely to appear in an article sometime in one of the wargaming "glossies" (one which has recently acquired a new editor), but here are the basics. Adapting the process for other metal bases shapes is a doddle.
First get down to the local sign shop and see if they will sell you offcuts from the magnetic sheet material from which they make magnetic vehicle door signs for advertising. Mine gives me good-sized offcuts for a pittance. If they won't, add magnetic sheet to the shopping list and head for the DIY/hardware store.
At the DIY store, you will be looking for:
- Magnetic sheet, if required.
- Fender washers on which to base your figures. These are fairly thin galvanized steel; unlike machinist's washers, they tend to have a small central hole compared to their overall radius. The most useful sized I find are 3/4" (20mm) and 1" (25mm). They will accommodate most 25-28mm infantry figures to your preference. For mounted figures, you can play around with larger fender washes (the larger, the more expensive), and these can be used to incorporate command vignettes into "element" bases, too. Or you can use the rectangular galvanized steel bases (50mm x 25mm, or 2" x 1", or any size you like) which many WABbites have used for years. And obviously you can infer how the same sort of bases (from companies such as Wargames Accessories, in the US) can serve the same purpose for infantry figures (20mm x 20mm, 25mm x 25mm), if you prefer the traditional route.
- The least expensive 12" square vinyl floor tiles they have. Yes, they're vinyl. but they're quite stiff. I have a stash I bought for about fifty cents each; the local Home Depot currently has their cheapest brand name ones for 69 cents, but check in the store for their most basic off-brand. You're not going to break the bank if you pay a few cents more. Make sure the tiles are not textured, but have a smooth to surface. Color doesn't matter; cheapness is goodness here.
Oh, and pick up a good glue to laminate bits of the magnetic sheet to the tile. Old-fashioned Gorilla Glue will work ***if used SPARINGLY and WITH CARE***!!! Or a durable contact adhesive will work well.
Now get over to the art (and craft) shop, and look in the scrapbooking section for round scrapbooking punches. Depending on the brand and size, they may look like a mini paper punch or a demented sort of shears. They will be the most expensive part of the project, so just get what you need. If you're going to use 3/4"/20mm fender washers, get a 3/4" punch, and so on.
Go home and make some space on the workbench and plan how you're going to lay out your trays/bases/elements. You may want to accommodate large (and small) WAB units, as Tony Edwards did with his Epirotes, above. But you can also make elements for "Dux Bellorum", "Dux Britanniarum", or "Impetus" (or do all three and use the same set of figures between them; I do!) or for any ruleset you prefer. With my 28mm Colonials for the Sudan, I use this method to mount singly-based figures on double-sized elements for Peter Pig's "Patrols in the Sudan", which is normally played in 15mm.
Once you've decided on element sizes and given some though as to how the figures will be positioned on them, start laying them out on the vinyl tile squares; I use an indelible pen and a drafting square, with a ruler. Then using a utility knife with a fresh blade, just "score and snap" the tiles into elements. Tidy up the edges with a sanding block.
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Yes, you can always go the magnetic rout...but if he's already based his guys - it depends on whether or not he's done them with magnetic metals. :?
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Now take your scrapbooking punch and the magnetic sheet and punch as many circles of magnetic material as you will need to hold your figures in place. Double-check (!) where you want the figures to go, and glue the magnetic circles down to the top side of the elements. Clean up excess glue and let dry. It's not a bad idea to weight and press the assembly to make a good lamination. When dry, spray a base color over the top, then sand/gravel/paint/flock around the magnetic circles. It's easier than you might imagine. A good spray clear acrylic holds everything together and provides a little protection for the base color.
Now stick your steel-based figures onto the elements, and you're ready to play. If you're doing massed square or rectangular-based figures, or if you're doing massed fender washers as Tony did with his Epirotes, it's much simpler and faster to just cut a single large rectangle of magnetic sheet to accommodate the unit, and stick it onto the tile base. But plan ahead: figure out the magnetic size first, then cut the tile about 1/4" wider (on each side, so 1/2" overall, to allow an edge to build up basing material and disguise the metal bases. It'll look different from Tony's, unless you add a built-up edge of stripwood or plastic to "contain" everything. but that's not necessary, as the magnets hold everything in place, and I think it looks just as good "bare". The tile alone is thick enough to allow you to pick up or slide the tray/element, without having to get one's greasy, Dorito-stained fingers on the figures!
But you can figure out the variations, or just wait for a future issue of a fine British wargaming mag for details and pictures. In any case, apart from the cost of the punches (use those 40% or 50% coupons the craft stores mail out! Again, I do!), the material cost is minimal. Including basing material (sand, flock, glue, you're looking quite literally as pennies per tray or element. It's definitely a DIY project, but I can't think of too many gamers of my acquaintances who have to many thumbs to be able to complete it easily and quickly. A weekend (and only a few hours of it, but accounting for drying time) will leave you set up for an army, or two, or three. :D Hope that helps.
Allen
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Well, he said washers or coins, so he's on the right track, unless his coins are completely non-ferrous. At least they're not those godawful black placcy plinths...
For those alien to the world of scrapbooking, this is one kind of punch:
(http://ak1.ostkcdn.com/images/products/P12088886.jpg)
And this is t'other:
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-JOD1zfp0z34/TwH0pAMQDmI/AAAAAAAAKLE/izP2p5Ntwdg/s400/Fiskars-Jenni-Bowlin-scrapbook-punches-a.jpg)
And if the concept doesn't resonate, then don't bl**dy do it! It's just a suggestion. Sheesh.
Allen
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Allen,
Always a pleasure :) I'm in Germany and mostly using 5 cent euro coins (21,25 mm diameter) For smaller stuff I'm taking the fender washers (these with the central hole) and they're 20mm. Though for some BTD Germans I had to use 30mm washers as they've got some action like poses and don't fit the 5 cents. Btw, the euro coins are containing some steel, that's the core element, otherwise they would be too soft and too expensive, too.
Btw, you've mentioned "rectangular galvanized steel bases", never heard of, are they something only available in the States?
I quite like the idea of self-making bases, I've did something like this about 13 years ago for my rectangular regiments, it was quite easy due to rectangular philosophy.. I took some sort of a very thin metal sheet and glued it on the move tray. Afterwards I've stuck the magnet sheet tiles (20x20mm) to the bottom of the bases.
I will check my DIY store and have a thinking about, thanks for the great guide!
Alex
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I think trays are the way to go Alex. I am so very much with you on the charm of individually based figures. But for big battles, you do need a way of ranking them up...
Yep movement trays. Most of my historical armies were single based originally on 2p coins as I prefer this, however are a pain to move especially if you have large (horde-mob) units there are quite a few companies out there most of which who make trays, have been mentioned already.
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I like the War Bases move trays quite a lot. Just not sure if they will fit my WAB requirements (large regiments providing 20-30 figures) so I maybe will go into the "self-made " direction. Allen's advise to use the scrapbook puncher is top notch, that would solve most of the possible problems.
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I looked long and hard for movement trays which I liked, but they all seemed to come with that hideous big 'step'. Makes them easy to get hold of - but completely ruins the asthetic look on the tabletop as far as I'm concerned.
My homemade version - in case you've forgotten ;) - gets rid of the obtrusive edge.
http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=26058.0
Very easy and inexpensive to make too.
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Many moons ago I made triangular movement trays after seeing a Norse game in a magazine. What I did was a flat piece of card and created small lumps and bumps such as stones etc whihc kept each fiugre in place rather than the drop in slot. Not quite so pretty but worked and was quick to do ;D
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I looked long and hard for movement trays which I liked, but they all seemed to come with that hideous big 'step'. Makes them easy to get hold of - but completely ruins the asthetic look on the tabletop as far as I'm concerned.
My homemade version - in case you've forgotten ;) - gets rid of the obtrusive edge.
http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=26058.0
Very easy and inexpensive to make too.
oh yes, forgot them completely, top notch job there, Richard!
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Allen,
Always a pleasure :) I'm in Germany and mostly using 5 cent euro coins (21,25 mm diameter) For smaller stuff I'm taking the fender washers (these with the central hole) and they're 20mm. Though for some BTD Germans I had to use 30mm washers as they've got some action like poses and don't fit the 5 cents. Btw, the euro coins are containing some steel, that's the core element, otherwise they would be too soft and too expensive, too.
Btw, you've mentioned "rectangular galvanized steel bases", never heard of, are they something only available in the States?
I quite like the idea of self-making bases, I've did something like this about 13 years ago for my rectangular regiments, it was quite easy due to rectangular philosophy.. I took some sort of a very thin metal sheet and glued it on the move tray. Afterwards I've stuck the magnet sheet tiles (20x20mm) to the bottom of the bases.
I will check my DIY store and have a thinking about, thanks for the great guide!
Alex
Cheers, Alex. The steel bases have been fairly common in the US, going back to WRG/DBx days. The most prolific company is Wargame Accessories (carried by many brick and mortar as well as online retailers: http://www.wargameaccessories.com/ (http://www.wargameaccessories.com/)
Obviously, the weight of steel tends to make shipping to Europe prohibitive! In the UK, there is Precision Wargames Supplies, which do some very nice-looking products; very useful for the larger discs, for example: http://www.freewebs.com/pwsltd/steelbases.htm (http://www.freewebs.com/pwsltd/steelbases.htm)
I very much like Captain Blood's method, appearance-wise. My only concern, again, would be the effects of pizza- and crisps/chips-lubricated fingers!
Allen
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Hi Alex,
I cut my war gaming teeth on WAB and didn't play anything else for years. Once WAB was no longer supported, and ancient gaming was thrown to the wolves, i then discovered Colonial gaming and all the other periods/games that were hidden thus far.
I've recently started gaming ancients again and would recommend Hail Caesar. In fact, i don't think i could go back to WAB now, all that fannying about taking single casualties off etc
Have fun,
James
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Martin at Warbases provide a superb custom cutting service, working with whatever your basing size may be and cutting the tray to the outside dimensions you require.
Worth getting a quote.
Warbases has provided me with movement trays cut to work with Canadian coins for two different projects. His prices are competitive and ultimately the investment is very reasonable.
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Hi,
just to add my experiences: These are individually round based figures of mine on a self-made tray.
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-gFWasTfeh1A/UXRFmnF0A4I/AAAAAAAAAbI/6hr_FWamaa4/s640/01.jpg)
The tray is done with a saddlers tool that can be bought in every size for less than ten euros at amazon:
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-Ka_cN3yb-LY/UG8z3lPJlGI/AAAAAAAAAJI/OWjcD7IbCwo/s400/P1030373.JPG)
Everything is described in detail here:
http://tobispaintpot.blogspot.de/2012/10/back-to-bases.html
I have to say I'm very pleased with this technique, and it really works very well. If magnets are not required, the base of the tray dosn't have to be steel and everything will be even cheaper.
Best regards,
Tobi
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Can you shoot us a link to the tool?
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In the UK, there is Precision Wargames Supplies, which do some very nice-looking products; very useful for the larger discs, for example: http://www.freewebs.com/pwsltd/steelbases.htm (http://www.freewebs.com/pwsltd/steelbases.htm)
second Precision Bases, excellent products which come primed.
I used them for my ECW bases, the downside with thin bases is you will always need to pick the elements up by the figures. Which is why I switched to 3mm perspex from Fenris. And have a look at the free Basic Impetus, solid game in it's own right and a good introduction if you want to go 'advanced' later.
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Can you shoot us a link to the tool?
Of course. For 20mm diameter:
http://www.amazon.de/Locheisen-Lochdurchmesser-20mm-Form-DIN7200/dp/B001MS9P46/ref=sr_1_12?ie=UTF8&qid=1376421101&sr=8-12&keywords=locheisen
For 25mm diameter:
http://www.amazon.de/Hoffmann-Henkellocheisen-25-mm/dp/B003B833IO/ref=sr_1_1?s=diy&ie=UTF8&qid=1376421156&sr=1-1&keywords=locheisen+25mm
There is near every size available...
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Of course. For 20mm diameter:
http://www.amazon.de/Locheisen-Lochdurchmesser-20mm-Form-DIN7200/dp/B001MS9P46/ref=sr_1_12?ie=UTF8&qid=1376421101&sr=8-12&keywords=locheisen
For 25mm diameter:
http://www.amazon.de/Hoffmann-Henkellocheisen-25-mm/dp/B003B833IO/ref=sr_1_1?s=diy&ie=UTF8&qid=1376421156&sr=1-1&keywords=locheisen+25mm
There is near every size available...
damn that's tempting......... :D
I went the magnet route for mine.
(http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa217/shaunyams/2013%20-%20pictures/944749_10201736650243685_2033361301_n.jpg)
(http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa217/shaunyams/2013%20-%20pictures/483899_10201736650163683_1910274093_n.jpg)
(http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa217/shaunyams/2013%20-%20pictures/554911_10201736650603694_926920502_n.jpg)
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Not sure if someone is doing the same in europe, but http://shogunminiatures.com uses galvanized sheet metal (the kind used for heating & cooling ducts). Precision sheared and bent, he also deburrs the edges.
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If you're after thin materials Alex, I can go down to 0.5mm, any size (other thicknesses are available ;) ).
cheers
James
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Many thanks, guys, a lot of very useful hints, you're just an inspiring bunch :)
After strong recommendation from Mad Doc and redzed I did read the Impetus basic rules and now I'm tempting to give them a try, so I may have to reconsider my base approaching. Have to think about it.
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I think you're on the right track. Also, as Redzed has pointed out elsewhere, "Dux Bellorum" is well-suited to play outside of its intended period. Easily modified, plays well, and it's possible to set your element sizes to use with both DB and "Impetus".
Allen