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Other Stuff => Bazaar of Obscurities => Commercial => Topic started by: surixurient on 12 August 2013, 06:43:41 PM
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I'd like to hear your thoughts on miniature pricing. It's a vast and diverse landscape from GW selling single figures for $40+ and bundling them for more like $2-$5 to a more standard $3-$5 from most manufacturers to $7 from others to $1 from others. What are the factors behind the prices? What are the advantages and disadvantages to pricing high or low or in between? Have there been companies which changed tactics over the years, what was the result?
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I'd like to hear your thoughts on miniature pricing. It's a vast and diverse landscape from GW selling single figures for $40+ and bundling them for more like $2-$5 to a more standard $3-$5 from most manufacturers to $7 from others to $1 from others. What are the factors behind the prices? What are the advantages and disadvantages to pricing high or low or in between? Have there been companies which changed tactics over the years, what was the result?
Wow, just a bit wide-ranging set of questions!
My first figures were 25 cents (infantry) and 50 cents (cavalry) but they went 100% a month later to 50 cents and a dollar. :) Talk about inflation! :o
I guess it depends if you are talking new figures or second hand figures. Also my old Der Kriegspieler figures (most, since some molds may not be usable,) cost more know then "in the day" because of the price of metal has gone up. Also the DK figures are "labor of love" more than "supporting a family" priced.
Im my wild multi-racial dreams here is what seems reasonable to my pocketbook.
3 mm figures as per Picoarmor's Oddzial Osmy figures http://www.picoarmor.com/pages/home.php and Tumblinf Dice http://www.tumblingdiceuk.com/ 8) :-*
6 mm figures per Baccus https://www.baccus6mm.com/ 8)
1:6000 ships per the Figurehead ships at http://www.nobleminis.com/Figurehead/Figurehead6000.pdf :)
Now down the "oversized figures" that most of you use; ;) lol
If I bought 15 mm figures I think iwould want them priced about at the Ground Zero Games level - shop.groundzerogames.net
If I buy 25/28 mm figures (and it matters quite a bit about the quality of the sculpting for these size figures) I find the pricing of Great Endeavours http://www.greatendeavours.co.uk/colonials/ 10 Infantry for 10 U$D and 4 Cavalry for 10 U$D ideal but I don't need anymore of those; Tiger Miniatures http://www.tigerminiatures.co.uk/ (bought mine from via a US agent) £4.50 for 5 figures quite acceptable; Gringo40s £1.50 - 1.75 for infantry quite fair; and (for single figure buys of PC characters obtained locally) I would go a bit higher even up to the level of Reaper's (micelings, anyone?) and, possibly in very exceptional cases, HassleFree's miniatures - but you can bet I would not build a Platoon or larger sized units at those prices. Also check out the prices for 25 mm figures at GZG - shop.groundzerogames.net - again.
Obviously, even if I was not repelled by the appearance of most GW figures (and I am) I would not pay those prices. Never have. Never will. And I am better off because of that. Second hand/Evilbay Lizardmen are the one exception where I bought GW figures knowingly at amuch reduced price....
Now those prices do not factor in postage. That might cause me to not buy, or reduce the number of figures bought, because of the postage costs. And I see that a factor no matter where you live.
Now OOP miniatures on EvilBay... that is another kettle of fish entirely...
Gracias,
Glenn
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There are a lot of factors involved. From my point of view, the most important ones would include the following (focusing primarily on metal and resin figures - for plastics, the circumstances would be quite different):
- The size and complexity of the figures. First, a complex sculpt will (hopefully) command a higher fee for the sculptor. Larger, and especially multipart figures require more complex moulds, which implies more frequent replacement of the production moulds due to wear and tear. Also, if more material is involved, the material cost per figure should be considered. Finally, the creation of the master and production moulds will probably me more expensive if it is complicated/requires particularly skilled craftsmen.
- The type of figure and the expected sales. Obviously, depending on how the game system is structured, customers will require differing numbers of various figure types, e.g. one officer to "lead" a squad but x troopers to fill it up - if we assume similar costs in mould-making, the number of officer units sold will be smaller than the troopers, so the respective cost-per-unit will be higher.
- The type of market, or genre the range is operating in. Modern sci-fi games tend to revolve around smaller numbers of figures (e.g. Infinity), so again the cost-per-unit will be higher than for games requiring dozens or hundreds of miniatures. Also, due to the success of Games Workshop in the Sci/Fantasy market, there used to be less competition there thatn there is in the historical market, where lots of smaller companies compete with ranges of increasingly comparable high quality product.
- The popularity of the product will allow the manufacturer to charge a premium price, as seen with GW and Warmachine, and possibly the Infinity stuff, too. Games Workshop spent years on building a strong position in the market (by various means), whereas Warmachine and Infinity aim at a "deluxe image" by promoting it as a high-quality product. This may, of course, also backfire - I've seen a number of German miniature startups do poorly initially because their price assumption was along the GW lines, without the established fanbase and often with sub-par product simply not worth it.
My pennyworth on that topic. There might be other issues involved, such as people running their business as an aside note next to their day job and primarily want to see it cover its own cost and maybe turn a small profit, with the main reward being seeing one's own range grow popular. But those factors are so diverse that it would be impractical to try to cover them all.
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There are a lot of factors involved. From my point of view, the most important ones would include the following (focusing primarily on metal and resin figures - for plastics, the circumstances would be quite different):
- The size and complexity of the figures. First, a complex sculpt will (hopefully) command a higher fee for the sculptor. Larger, and especially multipart figures require more complex moulds, which implies more frequent replacement of the production moulds due to wear and tear. Also, if more material is involved, the material cost per figure should be considered. Finally, the creation of the master and production moulds will probably me more expensive if it is complicated/requires particularly skilled craftsmen.
- The type of figure and the expected sales. Obviously, depending on how the game system is structured, customers will require differing numbers of various figure types, e.g. one officer to "lead" a squad but x troopers to fill it up - if we assume similar costs in mould-making, the number of officer units sold will be smaller than the troopers, so the respective cost-per-unit will be higher.
- The type of market, or genre the range is operating in. Modern sci-fi games tend to revolve around smaller numbers of figures (e.g. Infinity), so again the cost-per-unit will be higher than for games requiring dozens or hundreds of miniatures. Also, due to the success of Games Workshop in the Sci/Fantasy market, there used to be less competition there thatn there is in the historical market, where lots of smaller companies compete with ranges of increasingly comparable high quality product.
- The popularity of the product will allow the manufacturer to charge a premium price, as seen with GW and Warmachine, and possibly the Infinity stuff, too. Games Workshop spent years on building a strong position in the market (by various means), whereas Warmachine and Infinity aim at a "deluxe image" by promoting it as a high-quality product. This may, of course, also backfire - I've seen a number of German miniature startups do poorly initially because their price assumption was along the GW lines, without the established fanbase and often with sub-par product simply not worth it.
My pennyworth on that topic. There might be other issues involved, such as people running their business as an aside note next to their day job and primarily want to see it cover its own cost and maybe turn a small profit, with the main reward being seeing one's own range grow popular. But those factors are so diverse that it would be impractical to try to cover them all.
One more point to add: Expected print runs. If you can reliably sell many copies of the same figure, it's much easier to lower costs by volume.
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What are the factors behind the prices?
Hate to beat a dead horse but ultimately you need to cover your costs...so companies that are small operations, in theory have smaller costs. None of the companies listed, as far as I know have more than one "brick and mortar" store if that.
The much hated, oft criticised, GW has hundreds of stores and possibly thousands of employees, benefits etc.
I was speaking with my friend who is an employee of GW, who advised that a single plastic sprue can cost 1/2 million to make (and UK and USA get 1 each). Most kits have 2-4 sprues etc. I dont know how accurate that is but wow that's anywhere from 2-4 million for the molds, not including paying sculptors, employees, overhead etc.
I for one would love for GW to get rid of numerous stores, employees etc to lower the MSRP of the figures but I can also buy figures that I deem worthwhile...
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Wait, plastic sprues existed long before GW was a company, often for quite cheap kits and products. Certainly for things cheaper than GW minis.
I don't want to immediately contradict the point, because I don't personally know the full details of GW's sprue production processes, but I am definitely wondering what on earth they could be doing differently from the vast majority of the other companies who've ever produced plastic sprues for high-volume moulds.
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Sprues don't take 1/2 a million to make, the land raider mold took an INVESTMENT of £250,000, that's to invest in it, the sprues only cost £1-2, the entire land raider probably only cost around £4, the packaging £4 covering shipping costs £4, paying back that investment £6 and making a profit £6, that would make a land raider £24, GW sold it originally for £30, so they were paying off more investment and getting more profit...it now costs £45 despite the fact the mold investment has been paid for, so now its pure £33 profit
RIP OFF!
FW are just as bad, they use PVC resin and 1 kilo of that only costs around £1.50 (well the source was in dollars so £1.50-2 per kilo) then they charge 20x that for a model.
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I am not an industry insider, but from what I've heard, the cost of plastic injection moulds has decreased markedly over the last fifteen years, partly because of the possibility to have some types of sprue machine-milled rather than requiring a highly-skilled mouldmaker. Still, depending on size and complexity, such a mould easily runs five to six figures. Once those costs are recouped, though, the manufacture of plastic sprues costs very little (I've heard cents, although I'd consider that a bit exaggerated, given the material cost which is increasing pretty much constantly). The initial outlay, however, is one of the reasons that model railway scenery is gravitating towards laser-cut cardboard, especially for smaller firms - the customer base is aging and shrinking, so many companies cannot justify these costs anymore.
That said, the prices GW demand for their plastic kits can be explained by their dominant position (they are pretty much the only company who offers stuff in that particular segment).
It must be stressed, though, that we should differentiate between what a company MUST charge in order to cover costs and turn a profit and what it CAN charge due to its position in the market. Most small competitors, especially in a highly atomistic market such as historical gaming figures, would lean towards the former, due to high competition, whereas GW can pretty much charge what they think a sufficient number of customers will pay, as the substitution of product is more complicated.
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Yes but that way of pricing is only leading to 1 outcome
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Yes but that way of pricing is only leading to 1 outcome
Eventually, it will likely lead to an erosion of their customer base. This is only a problem if their key objective is long-term sustainable business. If, however, they are opting for short- and mid-term profit maximisation, without regard for future developments, then their strategy of high pricing is the option that will realize the best short-term result for their shareholders.
That is another fact - GW Plc is pretty much the only games company I know of that actually has public stock (correct me if I'm wrong). Such an organizational form does not necessarily have the same focus on sustainable and long-term business activities as privately-owned enterprise tends to have, for various reasons.
The main issue remains, there are a lot of factors in miniature pricing, and IMHO, it may lead to erroneous results if you consider Games Workshop to be in the same category, or even the same market niche, as companies such as the Perry brothers' venture. For best results, you should restrict or categorize the choice of comparable entities according to product range and organisational form, but it can get tricky to accurately class companies.
I would consider Games Workshop's main direct competitors to be Warmachine and Mantic, as they operate on comparable game concepts and/or product ranges (e.g. an integrated gaming experience approach, Sci-Fi or Fantasy miniatures). Those companies seem to be run as a business first and foremost, from what I know. If you look at these companies' pricing models and product ranges, they are rather comparable - units, character figures, extras, boxed and organised according to their own game rules, and, depending on the restrictivity of the game environment, non-substitutable if the customer wishes to partake in all parts of the "hobby" (e.g. no non-company figures at "official" events).
In contrast, there is no such exclusivity in the historical market (although Warlord Games certainly try to establish such a distinction for their products, notably with Bolt Action). Demand is much more strongly based on individual customers' personal tastes when it comes to manufacturers, and people may mix and match those figures they consider the most suitable. Thus, companies operate in a much more competitive environment (i.e. there are a lot of companies offering competitive product vs. the GW model, where making full use of the competitive situation would mean changing game systems).
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Yes but that way of pricing is only leading to 1 outcome
you and others constantly whining at every opportunity.
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you and others constantly whining at every opportunity.
Please stop it right now, and King Tiger, and everybody else, please stay civil, too. This was a reasonable discussion at the start, and I would like to keep it this way.
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Hey I have been...so far.
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Yes but that way of pricing is only leading to 1 outcome
Profit? Which is the base requirement to stay in business?
Gracias,
Glenn
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Hey I have been...so far.
I believe that was merely warning shot across your bow. And a reminder to all of us. Based on your comment above, it was warranted. Edit: I believe RedZed's comment was what triggered the warning though...
Gracias,
Glenn
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Horses for courses, I think if the demand is there the prices can be swallowed by the buyer. Too high and they may die the death or as has been seen others fill the gaps with proxies
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<snip>
It must be stressed, though, that we should differentiate between what a company MUST charge in order to cover costs and turn a profit and what it CAN charge due to its position in the market. Most small competitors, especially in a highly atomistic market such as historical gaming figures, would lean towards the former, due to high competition, whereas GW can pretty much charge what they think a sufficient number of customers will pay, as the substitution of product is more complicated.
It also must be stressed that war gamers have this assumption that these companies make their product only to satisfy their niche/style/interest of war gaming.
Or that they have a mandate to fully produce armies to an individual's particular historical/genre/style leanings.
First - Revolutionary France; Second - Howard's (Conan) or JRRT (LOTR) view of fantasy; or third Science Fiction without "Skulz/Purity Seals."
Sadly, not true. ::) ;) lol
Gracias,
Glenn
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Horses for courses, I think if the demand is there the prices can be swallowed by the buyer. Too high and they may die the death or as has been seen others fill the gaps with proxies
The Free Market at work. Assumes a wily and willing to go elsewhere consumer and practical options of course.
Gracias,
Glenn
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Profit? Which is the base requirement to stay in business?
Gracias,
Glenn
Yeah but you need loyal customers for that
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Yeah but you need loyal customers for that
That is quite right, and as noted elsewhere, it remains to be seen for how long GW can remain successful (to their internal requirements, mind).
Still, I would like to suggest we try going off the GW Bashwagon (as much fun as it is) and get back to a more general discussion of the topic, namely what goes into the pricing of wargames miniatures.
I think we can identify three key aspects:
a) Technical: this being the cost of getting the figure into production, e.g. sculpt, master mould, production mould, and running costs from production, e.g. material cost, wages, mould replacement. Depending on the scale and organisation of their production process, this may run higher or larger.
b) Market: this would include the projected scale for the individual figure's sales, the level of competition, the market position of the company and the intended marketing concept for the product (i.e. premium product, centre field or cheap items).
c) Distribution logistics: How do the customers get their grubby paws on the goods - such as, are there re-sellers, in which case re-seller discounts would need to be figured into the final retail price, or does the company only sell direct-to-customers. For direct sales, logistics costs would partially be covered by shipping fees and a fraction of the retail price.
That would be my impression. Any other suggestions?
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That is quite right, and as noted elsewhere, it remains to be seen for how long GW can remain successful (to their internal requirements, mind).
Still, I would like to suggest we try going off the GW Bashwagon (as much fun as it is) and get back to a more general discussion of the topic, namely what goes into the pricing of wargames miniatures.
I think we can identify three key aspects:
a) Technical: this being the cost of getting the figure into production, e.g. sculpt, master mould, production mould, and running costs from production, e.g. material cost, wages, mould replacement. Depending on the scale and organisation of their production process, this may run higher or larger.
b) Market: this would include the projected scale for the individual figure's sales, the level of competition, the market position of the company and the intended marketing concept for the product (i.e. premium product, centre field or cheap items).
c) Distribution logistics: How do the customers get their grubby paws on the goods - such as, are there re-sellers, in which case re-seller discounts would need to be figured into the final retail price, or does the company only sell direct-to-customers. For direct sales, logistics costs would partially be covered by shipping fees and a fraction of the retail price.
That would be my impression. Any other suggestions?
There you going being all "adult" on us. ;) lol
Okay, let's see...
Gracias,
Glenn
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<snip>
I think we can identify three key aspects:
a) Technical: this being the cost of getting the figure into production, e.g. sculpt, master mould, production mould, and running costs from production, e.g. material cost, wages, mould replacement. Depending on the scale and organisation of their production process, this may run higher or larger.
<snip>
That would be my impression. Any other suggestions?
Mold (see http://grammarist.com/spelling/mold-mould/) Maintenance/Replacement. Years ago done even more poorly than Software/database maintenance (I was a programmer) because of... cost. You really need to work estimated mold replacement costs into the figure cost.
Sculptors make more today but more market adjusted in constant dollars/Pounds/Euros/Rupees? I don't know. If any sculptor has solid numbers please chime in on this part.
Does a stand of 6 mm cost more or less to sculpt than a "heroic 28 mm" figure?
Gracias,
Glenn
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A simple plastic injection mold, without slides and lifters to form undercut details, in the size of a typical gaming sprue, around $20K. Prototype grade (life of about 25,000 cycles) cut about 20 - 30% off that. Note: I've been out of the industry about 8 years, and asian toolmakers were driving the prices even lower.
It's funny, though. Miniatures that are part of a game usually fetch a premium price and often have the poorest quality. For example, Privateer Press (WarmaHordes) and Wyrd (Malifaux) metals are some of the worst casts I've ever had to deal with.
Then you get the companies that switch to injection molded plastic without redesigning FOR plastic. Battlefront (Flames of War), if you try to mold wall sections at 5mm, they WILL warp and cause deep sinks where they intersect!
I've recently switched to game rules that do not have a required line of miniatures so I can choose to use miniatures from companies such as Reaper that give the best balance of cost and quality.
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<snip>
b) Market: this would include the projected scale for the individual figure's sales, the level of competition, the market position of the company and the intended marketing concept for the product (i.e. premium product, centre field or cheap items).
<snip>
That would be my impression. Any other suggestions?
Well, I tend to be willing (in some cases) to spend more for PC's, "key" NPCs, Leaders, and Characters than for mass armies figures. Spending $1 per figure for 20 figure units is awesome ($2 acceptable) but much over $3 means no platoons of said figures...
For 3 mm/6 mm figures I tend to cost per base/stand/unit rather than per figure. These figures, besides being great for ACW/Napoleonic warfare/Colonials also do well for the wide open mass combat of SF/Ultra Modern warfare. The exceptrion would be skirmish games with these size figures.
Gracias,
Glenn
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<snip>
c) Distribution logistics: How do the customers get their grubby paws on the goods - such as, are there re-sellers, in which case re-seller discounts would need to be figured into the final retail price, or does the company only sell direct-to-customers. For direct sales, logistics costs would partially be covered by shipping fees and a fraction of the retail price.
That would be my impression. Any other suggestions?
Well the internet has made it easier to get your hands on certain figures even if they only are sold by one source (thinking Baccus here.)
I think certain shops who tried to limit scale, era, genre, or some other aspect to the ones the owner liked or made more profit off of made the incentive to go "on line" even more profitable and, for me, pleasurable.
Evilbay certainly might be a factor in some cases, both positive and negative for a company.
Oh, Postage/S&H, that has been a rather unexpected cost increase in the last few years for me... even more than fluid currency rates (thinking U$D, Canadian $, Australian $, GBP, and now Euros,) over the last ten years.
Gracias,
Glenn
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Yeah but you need loyal customers for that
There the falling birthrate of the developed world is working against them over time, perhaps.
That said, I find there are always sufficient numbers of what some call 'fan boys' for the major and semi-major producers to keep the (apparent) demand up. At least do far...
Gracias,
Glenn
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<snip>.
THe other thing rarely considered is we are not representative of most minis people. Most people dont have thousands of figures, hundreds of half finished projects and a collection that can furnish figures from the dawn of history to sci fi rayguns.
<snip>
;)
You have not been around the old fogeys in this community (Saint Louis, MO,USA) then. :o lol ::)
Seriously, possibly true. :) Probably true if you take into consideration locale and age. :)
Even the local [start DWS voice] "I don't play that Science Fiction and Fantasy crap," guy who has multiple large ancients and ACW forces has what appears to be several hundred figures conservatively.
But many locals here are either crazy fanatic historical (oh wait redundant?) war gamers or either retired or of retirement age (and can''t afford to retire.) the benefit of the greying of the hobby, I suppose.
The "youngsters" are in their 30's or 40's often.
Many are tri-genre (Hx, Fx, SF,) gamers and even the"Only Napoleonics" guy fields large forces of (all nations involved in the Penninsular War) that can hold up to 4 to 6 players on both sides of the table at conventions. I never thought there were Swedes in Spain until recently (or that could be his humor/genuflecting to his ethnicity in his senior days of life.)
Even in the 1970's I was around a game group that used an entire large library conference room floor space for a massive "end of the campaign" battle that lasted from closing of the Library early Saturday night to opening late Sunday Morning. And had to be adjudicated at the end (though it was clear which side had won to most of us.) So my experience may be third sigma...
Gracias,
Glenn