Lead Adventure Forum
Other Stuff => Workbench => Topic started by: mikedemana on August 14, 2013, 01:03:34 AM
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Hi everyone,
Crazy me, with a month to go before the convention, I've decided to do a major terrain piece for a French & Indian War game I'll be running at Advance the Colors, Sept. 20-22. If you're a fan of the 1992 version of "The Last of the Mohicans", you know doubt remember the climactic, clifftop battle. Well, I want to do something inspired by that -- not necessarily replicating it, though. I want it to be the centerpiece of a 3'x3' board. Oh, and yes, it has to be ready to gamed on in a month!
Anyway, here's my initial thoughts. I want to build it in 5 sections forming a rough arch shape. The two lowest sections will be on either end, followed by the two taller middle sections. In between the middle sections will be the tallest, center section. I am not a foam core cutter, so that is out as a material. Here's my first thoughts (and I'd be glad of feedback). I will buy wooden boxes from the craft store of the varying heights and use those for the base sections.
The boxes will have pine bark wood chips glued down to them to replicate the stone texture. I will stack the chips so there is a natural staircase of sorts leading from low to middle, and middle to high. The bark chips will also be glued to the sides as the cliff face. I'll probably base each box on styrene so I can brake up the boxy silhouette with irregular triangular pieces "joining" each box. A key point for storage is that the sections will be individual and placed against each other on the table top -- not actually all glued together. I can place lichen to cover up unsightly cracks.
Anyway, I am planning on spray painting the whole thing black and then dry brushing the stone surface. I'll add in trees, vegetation, etc..
So, thoughts...? Suggestions? Experience working with bark as stone? Advice on multi-piece terrain sections...? Oh, and I'll also use this as a step by step record of it, including pictures along the way.
Mike Demana
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o_o Good luck Mike. It does sound clever though.
I think you could setup the sections as a whole, then glue the wood chips on from bottom up. That way there will be a fair bit of overlap between the cliff faces to make it look more unified. That way they will fit together like a jigsaw.
Perhaps if you use a hot glue gun it will be quicker to mockup than whiteglue, and will give a tighter fit.
Cheers
Matt.
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The http://maiwandday.blogspot.com.au/ has some excellent use of cork as rock formations.
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Bottom up....I'll remember that! Thanks, Constable.
Furt, it looks like he also uses wood chips, which is what I plan to do. Speaking of plans, we've all heard the truism about no battle plan surviving contact with the enemy. Similarly, no scratch build plan of mine seems to survive unscathed with the trip to Hobby Lobby. I found "block O" shaped wood trays of different sizes for cheap. I've scaled back the number of pieces to 3 -- one middle "high" one and two lower ones on either side of it.
I cut black styrene as a base for the boxes and used tacky glue to affix them to the styrene. Drying now, pictures to follow. The middle section is two trays high, while the end sections are one tray high. After that, I'll start gluing bark chips to the sides (cliff faces) first, then the tops.
Mike Demana
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(http://i721.photobucket.com/albums/ww213/mikedemana/Miscellaneous/WIPcliff01_trays_zps9e4ba1f3.jpg)
Okay, here is the barest of beginnings. Here are photos of the 3 wooden tray pieces I got at the craft store. They've been tacky glued to black styrene. The middle piece is actually two trays glued on top of each other. I'm going to go with a slightly off-set alignment like show here.
(http://i721.photobucket.com/albums/ww213/mikedemana/Miscellaneous/WIPcliff02_bark_zpsf92515d4.jpg)
And here are my cliff sides. I bought a massive bag of pine bark chips at the local DIY store (Lowe's in the U.S.). This is about 20 times as much as I need, but was the smallest bag at less than $5. I've sorted out likely pieces and have them drying in the sun outside on a table. The texture of the bark chips looks like it will make good cliff scenery. Once dry, I will tacky glue (I've decided -- I don't own a hot glue gun and worry about the learning curve using one on my deadline...!) them to the sides and tops.
More to come!
Mike Demana
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http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=12619.0
I used cork bark for mine.
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I'm always jealous of the wood chips in the US. Over here our wood chip bags from DIY stores are full of random rubbish bark that's of no use for scenery. If you do try and buy pine chips it's either tiny stuff for terrariums or small pieces (around 30mm) if you find a supplier of pine nuggets. The good big stuff does exist but it's only really used for community playgrounds etc so is only available in builders style bags for around £100 :(
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Clearly this means you should be out there raiding community playgrounds. >:D
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I may have picked up the odd piece :)
Should they ever give one a new covering when I'm around, it will be raided! The issue with the established ones is the amount of rain we have.
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Once dry, I will tacky glue (I've decided -- I don't own a hot glue gun and worry about the learning curve using one on my deadline...!) them to the sides and tops.
More to come!
Mike Demana
I'd get a hot glue gun if you can. There is no real leaning curve and it will give a better bond than tacky glue. I've only had mine for about 18 months and one of the best purchases I've ever made.
Look forward to seeing this project unfold.
PS the only learning curve with a hot glue gun is how to avoid burning your fingers. lol
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And here's the next update...
(http://i721.photobucket.com/albums/ww213/mikedemana/Miscellaneous/WIPcliff03_cliffsides01_zps8bde1b08.jpg)
Since the three pieces are eight sided, I had to take my time when gluing on the pine bark to the sides to represent the cliff faces. I'm being a cheap skate and haven't gone out and bought a glue gun yet, despite what is doubtless the correct recommendation to do so. The tacky glue sticks quick enough and I didn't have any incidents with pieces of bark falling off after being glued down.
I glued each flat side (one of eight) one at a time. Then I would prop up the piece so what I just glued was laying flat. I would do all three pieces consecutively, wait a couple hours for it to dry, then do the adjacent face. So, although it only takes a few minutes to select the bark pieces to use and glue them down, there is a long wait period. After gluing the pieces down, I take the bottle of tacky glue and liberally cover any part of that face without a piece of bark. I then poured Woodland Scenics coarse ballast over the glue to eventually represent dirt and vegetation seams between the exposed rock. You can see it in the pictures as bright tannish colored gravel. It will eventually be covered by sand and then flocking.
(http://i721.photobucket.com/albums/ww213/mikedemana/Miscellaneous/WIPcliff04_cliffsides02_zpsea008bb7.jpg)
When selecting which bark chips to use, I took a few minutes to play jigsaw puzzle and find ones that kind of fit together. I would trim pieces with wire cutters as that would give a more realistic natural jagged line, rather than a straight cut. I am liking how it is looking, so far.
Next step: Pine bark on the flat top surfaces. As always, any comments or suggestions greatly appreciated!
Mike Demana
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Hi Mike
Great topic - and stuff is looking great so far...just slightly concerned that it all looks a bit too uniform. Might be better to break up some of the bigger bits.
Now if my geology is right you need to ensure the rock striations all follow the same direction. Plopping bark on top horizontally would create a weird affect..
Thoughts...
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Hi Mike
Great topic - and stuff is looking great so far...just slightly concerned that it all looks a bit too uniform. Might be better to break up some of the bigger bits.
Now if my geology is right you need to ensure the rock striations all follow the same direction. Plopping bark on top horizontally would create a weird affect..
Thoughts...
Nice idea and start. Hot glue gun is really the way to go. No wait time at all for it to "dry" -it sets up in less than a minute. Basically all it has to do is cool down and it's stuck.
Agree on the striation comment - most exposed surfaces will follow a general direction - the strata is formed by deposits, compression, etc., etc. over bazillions of years. Upheavals will give you the odd change in direction or shape.
One suggestion, (I have seen this done and it works well) is to cut your pieces in half (top to bottom, or orthogonal to the "grain". If look at your pic of the bark pieces, the cuts would be vertical, looking straight down on / into the table.
Stack the pieces, with the smooth cut edge up against the hex trays. Then all the thin ridges are exposed and will look like the strata you see IRL. The bark can be split along the grain (use a chisel), if you need to fit thicker pieces next to thinner ones. Final step is to fill in gaps with bits and pieces as necessary, and camouflage with ballast and/or assorted greenery.
You could also cut the pieces in thirds, and use the two outer pieces as rock/cliff edges. More work, but you can get more coverage with same amount of material. This is what I plan to do with my rope bridge end pieces/abutments.
HTH...
(http://www.landforms.eu/shetland/images/sandness_cliff_horizontal2.jpg)
(http://jasperjournal.com/jaspergallery/d/598-2/DSC03441-maligne-canyon-rock-erosion-1440.jpg)
(http://bna-art.s3.amazonaws.com/www.bootsnall.com/articles/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/4-Cliffs-of-moher.jpg)
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Thanks for the suggestions and comments! I'm shooting to replicate cliffs in my state (Ohio). So, we're looking at shale as the likely stone. My friend is a big hiker and bicyclist so sent me pics of some shale cliff gorges in Ohio. It has a less regular pattern than you would see from standard erosion or weathering. I've got most of the top pieces glued on and will post another pic when they're done and ready to be primed.
Mike Demana
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So, the first couple weeks of school have kept me pretty busy, so my work on these has been less steady. Here are shots with the three sections black primed. Tonight, I will do a "wetbrush" first coating of dark gray and dark brown in different sections. Lighter dry brushing of gray and brown to tan tones will follow, hopefully over the weekend.
As always, comments and suggestions gratefully appreciated...
(http://i721.photobucket.com/albums/ww213/mikedemana/Miscellaneous/WIPcliff05_blacksmall_zpsab55ee7b.jpg)
The smallest of the three sections
(http://i721.photobucket.com/albums/ww213/mikedemana/Miscellaneous/WIPcliff06_blackmid_zps1de8d782.jpg)
The mid-sized section
(http://i721.photobucket.com/albums/ww213/mikedemana/Miscellaneous/WIPcliff07_blacklarge_zps76429698.jpg)
Mike Demana
The tallest (center) section
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Wow. They look really good.
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yep, how do they fit together?
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I'll be honest - they've come up a lot better than I thought they would. The overall shape and details look really natural - a credit to your foresight.
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Thanks. Or it could just be lucky first try...!
The pieces fit together well. I made the styrene bases have almost no "lip" where I wanted them to fit together. Everywhere else, I gave myself an inch to half inch or so. This is a holiday weekend here in the States, so hopefully I'll get the dry brushing stage done by Monday evening...
I have 19 days before I have to run my game using them...!
Mike Demana
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Okay...so I didn't take intermediate pictures during the dry brushing process. Laziness, I think. But I tried something different than I usually do. Instead of picking one basic tone for the rocks, I looked over my friend's hiking pictures from southern Ohio. There seemed to be a regular mix of browns and grays in the rock face. So, I wet brushed dark gray over it, then did a wet brush of Autumn brown over patches of it. Once dry, I drybrushed it light gray, then khaki, purposely trying to blend the brown and gray rocks to come up with a more uniform, mottled look.
Not sure if it worked out...and you may not really be able to tell until I am finished and stage an appropriately lighted photo shoot. I was in a hurry, so I also went ahead and did my first layer of coarse gravel in the cracks between the pine bark pieces, followed by medium ballast. Next up is sand, then grass flocking.
Comments? Criticisms? Oohs and aahs? Bored sighs?
(http://i721.photobucket.com/albums/ww213/mikedemana/Miscellaneous/WIPcliff09_ballast02_zpsc31379ef.jpg)
The smallest cliff piece
(http://i721.photobucket.com/albums/ww213/mikedemana/Miscellaneous/WIPcliff10_ballast03_zps126da2ef.jpg)
The medium sized cliff piece
(http://i721.photobucket.com/albums/ww213/mikedemana/Miscellaneous/WIPcliff08_ballast01_zps878027ae.jpg)
The central largest piece
Mike Demana
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I like the actual rock/cliff face but I think your gravel is too coarse (and needs more colour variation). :)
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I agree with Poiter50, though I think that just painting the gravel different colours and using some different types/colour flock over it will solve it. Regardless - very nice work so far!
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Looks very good. I like the blending on the rock face, but agree with the others the gravel/sand doesn't look quite right.
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My bad...didn't clarify. The gravel is about to be covered by sand, which will then be covered up by grass flocking. You won't see that gravel in the finished product. It is just a way to build up some substance.
Mike Demana
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My bad...didn't clarify. The gravel is about to be covered by sand, which will then be covered up by grass flocking. You won't see that gravel in the finished product. It is just a way to build up some substance.
Mike Demana
Ahhh! makes sense now! :)
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Okay...so I left off with the coarse ballast on the cliffs. This provides the foundation for a finer ballast, sand, and then finally Woodland Scenics blended green turf flocking. After these stages were all done, I added in clump foliage for bushes and scrubs. I also did some work on the trees that are on each of the cliff sections, though I am not finished with them. I intend to sprinkle green flocking over the foliage to tone down the autumn red. The trees are Woodland Scenics bare branch plastic ones. I trimmed a number of the branches off. This was done to be able to slip on plastic plant pieces, which slide right over the branch. I also am going to do a spot of dry brushing on the trunk to give them a more realistic look, as well.
The cliffs are almost done, so these pictures are a pretty good indication of what they will look like when complete. I will do a better photo shoot with miniatures for scale when they are all complete. As always, comments and suggestions greatly appreciated. I'm pretty happy with how they are looking so far...just under two weeks from when I will be running a game with them!
(http://i721.photobucket.com/albums/ww213/mikedemana/Miscellaneous/WIPcliff13_flocking03_zpsc0e15c66.jpg)
(http://i721.photobucket.com/albums/ww213/mikedemana/Miscellaneous/WIPcliff12_flocking02_zpsf7e12ac0.jpg)
(http://i721.photobucket.com/albums/ww213/mikedemana/Miscellaneous/WIPcliff14_flocking04_zps60bc57eb.jpg)
(http://i721.photobucket.com/albums/ww213/mikedemana/Miscellaneous/WIPcliff11_flocking01_zpsefcdcca6.jpg)
Mike Demana
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Nice. That takes away the coarseness of the underlying gravel, great improvement.
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Good Heavens, those are beautiful. I think I've seen similar looking formations in Indiana and Wisconsin.
I really like the look of bark. I've recently started using it for basing my bad-guy Chaos army, and it' really looks like rock and is so easy to work with.
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Mike, this looks REALLY good. Fantastic stuff - I will keep this in mind for when I need cliffs (I'm bound to sooner or later).
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They've turned out very well. Great effect :)
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They've turned out very well. Great effect :)
Seconded :)
cheers
James
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I also agree - they look great.
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fantastic work!
cheers
Matt
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Looks fantastic! How durable is this bark over time?
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Bark itself is hardly fragile but I have no idea how well paint sticks to it... Regardless, I'll have to try something like this myself one of these days.
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Very nice indeed especially as they started out as wooden trays. Wouldn't have imagined. :)
Love the autumn colours but maybe needs a few red leaves scattered about on the ground to complete the Fall look. I believe people sometimes use silver birch seed pods as fallen leaves and may be freely available too.
Will you be making smaller "stair" pieces to place against so characters can reach the top?
Looking forward to seeing more.
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Mike, that must weigh a ton with all that rock you used!
The way you painted the 'bark' in varying tones gives it a very heavy and real effect. You've gotta be pleased with the outcome.
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Fantastic stuff. Now the rest of the groundwork has been added the 'bark' rock face looks superb.
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Bark itself is hardly fragile but I have no idea how well paint sticks to it... Regardless, I'll have to try something like this myself one of these days.
Paint sticks very well to it. However, I bake all my bark in the oven to dry it out and give it a nice thick coat of gesso just to be sure.
The issue with Bark is that there is a bit of danger of flakey-ness. Usually you can tell just by looking at the bark where this might occur. A bit of superglue applied to danger areas will cure that, and might not even be necessary if you apply a reasonably thick coat of primer. It's not really a big danger though. I've glued many figures right on top of pieces of bark that I glued to a base and there doesn't seem to be any problems with breakage so far.
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Paint sticks very well to it. However, I bake all my bark in the oven to dry it out and give it a nice thick coat of gesso just to be sure.
The issue with Bark is that there is a bit of danger of flakey-ness. Usually you can tell just by looking at the bark where this might occur. A bit of superglue applied to danger areas will cure that, and might not even be necessary if you apply a reasonably thick coat of primer. It's not really a big danger though. I've glued many figures right on top of pieces of bark that I glued to a base and there doesn't seem to be any problems with breakage so far.
Not sure what gesso is? But would PVA work, to give the bark a firmer outer surface before painting? Never used bark but would like to give it go in the near future for a few projects I have in mind.
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Not sure what gesso is? But would PVA work, to give the bark a firmer outer surface before painting? Never used bark but would like to give it go in the near future for a few projects I have in mind.
Gesso is what Artists use to prime their canvases and many folks use to prime their minaitures. You can read the best analysis/how-to of Acrylic Gesso for priming miniatures (and what got me started on it) here:
http://thescreamingalpha.com/?p=640
Really, I think that any sort of primer, paint or PVA would stabilize the surface enough for further painting and overall durrability. As I said, it's not a huge deal anyway. I rub off any loose bits before painting and have never had a problem.
I do highly recommend baking the pieces before use though, as excess moisture under your paint is never a good thing. It also makes your kitchen smell really nice. Kind of like the best parts of the campfire smell.
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Gesso is what Artists use to prime their canvases and many folks use to prime their minaitures. You can read the best analysis/how-to of Acrylic Gesso for priming miniatures (and what got me started on it) here:
http://thescreamingalpha.com/?p=640
Wow ! My virusscanner kicked in on that page. Some script got blocked.
Anyone else having problems with that link ?
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Thanks, everyone. I spray the whole thing down in a diluted mixture of white glue and water to help with flakiness and seal in the flock. I do plan on some fallen leaves at the final stage. The pieces don't weight that much as the bark pieces are very light. Glad you guys like it...means the players likely will, too...!
Mike Demana
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Wow ! My virusscanner kicked in on that page. Some script got blocked.
Anyone else having problems with that link ?
Nope. Worked fine for me. Quite an interesting article too!
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And here are some shots of them in natural sunlight on a flocked battle mat...
(http://i721.photobucket.com/albums/ww213/mikedemana/Native%20Americans/CliffPieces01_Layout_zps0f9c867f.jpg)
The three pieces in a curving layout...of course they'll look better on a table with other scenery!
(http://i721.photobucket.com/albums/ww213/mikedemana/Native%20Americans/CliffPieces02_Vertical_zps7369d61b.jpg)
Looking down the row of the three cliff pieces (and their tiny "step up" pieces)
(http://i721.photobucket.com/albums/ww213/mikedemana/Native%20Americans/CliffPieces06_Detail_zpse0a1c254.jpg)
Close up of what the detail on the surfaces looks like...
(http://i721.photobucket.com/albums/ww213/mikedemana/Native%20Americans/CliffPieces05_CliffFaces_zpsf62ea031.jpg)
Another close up showing what the vertical faces of the cliffs looks like...
(http://i721.photobucket.com/albums/ww213/mikedemana/Native%20Americans/CliffPieces03_Zoom_zps8ab48bfc.jpg)
Looking from one of the "step up" pieces back over the arc of the cliffs...Where's Magua?
(http://i721.photobucket.com/albums/ww213/mikedemana/Native%20Americans/CliffPieces04_Panorama_zps01d37770.jpg)
A panorama of the pieces laid out...
I will take some shots at this next weekend's "Ohio Frontier Aflame" game that I'm running at Advance the Colors in Springfield, OH. I'll make sure to get it with figures on the cliffs, trees and other terrain all around them. Can't wait to see what they look like as part of big board setup...!
This was a lengthy build...glad it is done! Now, to work on getting the game itself ready...!
Mike Demana
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Firstly, looking very good; nice tones and shape.
Secondly, I've just realised that the film is now 21 years old!
Thirdly, Studi was in 'Avatar'.
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These look fantastic. Look forward to seeing them with the other terrain you intend to use for the game. I've assumed throughout the build these are for 28mm? How do they compare in size to figures you intend to use? Just in case you intend to have Alice Monroe throwing herself off the cliff!!!
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Very Indian summer choice of colors.
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They look absolutely great :-*
The challenge will be how to make the rest of the tabletop look just as good as the rocky outcrops. So it all blends into one gorgeous table.
Rather than isolated islands of brilliance ;)
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Rather than isolated islands of brilliance ;)
As a school teacher, that's sometimes how I feel about my life... lol
Seriously, thanks for the comments. Heading out now to run the game at Advance the Colors three times this weekend. Hope to get some good shots. And to be honest, I haven't actually set a figure on or next to the cliffs, yet. I've been so busy. But they are indeed 28mm.
Thanks for the comments!
Mike Demana
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That's lovely.
As someone who has previously dismissed using bark because, a) the large sections have been ridiculously expensive and b) I feel iffy about carving off chunks from trees with no idea of the effect it would have, the idea of using cheap bark chippings is a really one that I will probably use in future.
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Here's a couple shots of the cliffs with figures on them from the game I ran 3 times at the local con, this weekend.
(http://i721.photobucket.com/albums/ww213/mikedemana/Native%20Americans/OFA13_Cliffs_Indians_zps4fcdcfa4.jpg)
(http://i721.photobucket.com/albums/ww213/mikedemana/Native%20Americans/OFA13_HuronKidnappers_zps463c8625.jpg)
More photos on the "Game Nights" section of my webpage:
http://home.earthlink.net/~mikedemanagames3/GameNights8.html (http://home.earthlink.net/~mikedemanagames3/GameNights8.html)
I was VERY happy with how they looked on the tabletop...and got lots of nice comments on both the table and the game itself...!
Mike Demana
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Very nice, absolutely stunning set up.
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Very nice and colorful.
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Here's a couple shots of the cliffs with figures on them from the game I ran 3 times at the local con, this weekend.
<<edited for bandwidth!!!>>
More photos on the "Game Nights" section of my webpage:
http://home.earthlink.net/~mikedemanagames3/GameNights8.html (http://home.earthlink.net/~mikedemanagames3/GameNights8.html)
I was VERY happy with how they looked on the tabletop...and got lots of nice comments on both the table and the game itself...!
Mike Demana
Breathtaking, Mike! I'm betting you got plenty of interest and wows from this set up.
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They have a very natural look - No doubt a mix of your selection of materials and brushwork.
Great stuff. ;)
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They look fantastic, and work really well. :)
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Looks fabulous well done sir must do this myself
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Thanks, everyone! I certainly was happy with the nice comments passers by made at the museum, too. The neat thing was all the "civilians" -- non-gamers visiting the museum -- who came by to ask about it and admire. I must have had a dozen attendees come up and lament that they couldn't get on my game as it was signed up full...and I had 8 spots and was running it three times!
I certainly appreciate all of your suggestions, comments, and praise over the course of the thread. Far from burning me out, this had me come back for the show, go through my unpainted lead, and pull out a batch to paint up next! It has been a shot of adrenaline, of sorts, to see this through to completion and have it work out as well or better than I'd hoped....!
Mike Demana
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Breathtaking!
I am very impressed!
:-*
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:-*
Cool!
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Very nice work and excellent looking game 8) 8) 8) 8) 8)
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Mike: I have only just discovered this and just have to say: WOW!
:o :o :o
This set of cliffs, and the 'steps' that led me to it look amazing.
Consider me sold on the idea of some pine bark cliffs.
:-* :-* :-*
And consider the idea well and truly stolen!
:D 8) :D
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Super set up. F & I War is one of my favorite periods.
Love your cliffs, in fact love everything you did concerning the game.
Very interesting on how you ran the game.
Will have to try in out with the guys I game with.