Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => Age of the Big Battalions => Topic started by: ARKOUDAKI on 05 September 2013, 10:19:29 AM
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As the title says, I am in need of some expertise of any of you Russian Nap experts out there. Here are my questions and they are very 'button' oriented :smt045
Here is the situation, I took the plunge and decided to build a Russian Nap army using the Perry's plastic Russians as a basis. So I am in the process of cleaning them up - a tedious job for sure - and one of the key bits for me involves removing all the mold lines. So having done that I also replace the buttons on the sleeves and gaiters with plasticard using my Waldron miniature punch and die set (an expensive but indispensable tool!!!!!!!). So the questions that come to mind are as follows:
(1) For the Russian Nap summer pants, is four buttons on the gaiters as Alan has sculpted correct??? I ask because having look through loads of graphics I see many of them had 8 buttons (9 if using the black coverall bootie thing) while some have just 5 buttons....So which is correct????????????????????
(2) Alan has sculpted 2 buttons on each sleeve cuff (like he did the Prussian Naps) but my references show 3 buttons were used....So which is correct????????????????????
Please note that I have looked through all my Russian Nap resources - which is a lot of info - and haven't found definitive answers to the above questions. Thus, I am hoping one of you knows the answer and/or can point me to the reference. Hence my plea for further assistance.
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I am certainly no expert, but some of these original coats appear to have only two buttons. http://georgianworld.tripod.com/russianuniforms/ (http://georgianworld.tripod.com/russianuniforms/) . Of course, this print from around 1812 clearly shows three. http://georgianworld.tripod.com/uniforms/pic20.jpg (http://georgianworld.tripod.com/uniforms/pic20.jpg). I suspect the difference may have to do with the regiments involved and/or the time period.
I I haven't dug through Viskovatov, but maybe the answer is in there? http://marksrussianmilitaryhistory.info/V10BAll.htm (http://marksrussianmilitaryhistory.info/V10BAll.htm)
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Irrespective of the correct answer it may be worth trying a test with the eight buttons. It may be right but may not look right once painted. Viz a viz cartoon hands having one less finger.
The best book I had on the subject was one by Nafziger. Sadly when times were tough some time ago I sold it to chap in Canberra.
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Thanks for the links Aaron...I previously checked Viskovatov reference but I am aware that more recent research shows that he didn't get it right...more fun for me.
Capt Carson, yes, I have the Russian Army booklet by Nafziger but sadly it doesn't shed light on the subject. I do however see what you mean with the 8 buttons, as it looks rather crowded...and I can't get the buttons any smaller then I have....plus, given that I have 270 Perry plastic Russians and that means 540 legs, multiplied by X number of buttons, means my life is going to be pretty exciting.... lol
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I have a booklet entitled 'The Russian Army 1805-1814' by Anschluss Publishing (1977) that states that the tunic had three buttons on the cuff flap. However, apparently the ten new musketeer regiments from 1806 had slightly different uniforms with five buttons to the cuff flap. These units were not apparently uniformed in the Inspection colours. It seems that the uniforms were in use for less than a year and suggests that many full new uniforms were never actually issued. Things like this can show how easily confusion can develop though.
As regards the breeches and gaiters, full parade and summer campaign dress lists 'white cloth breeches with the outer seam below the knee slit and fastened with eight cloth coloured buttons'. It also references the winter dress heavy knee length gaiters and the brass button fasteners used but does not state the number of buttons. It is also mentioned that contemporary illustrations often show all types of legwear in use during most periods.
The guard would have had lace decoration to their buttonholes on the cost cuff flaps.
None of my other books specifically state button numbers (that I've found with a quick scan) but Haythornthwaite shows three cuff flap buttons in his book 'Uniforms of Napoleon's Russian Campaign'.
Ultimately though, I wouldn't be bothered with all that work! You must have the patience of a saint! :)
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Ultimately though, I wouldn't be bothered with all that work! You must have the patience of a saint! Smiley
Come on, doesn't everyone use their Waldron sub-miniature punch and die set to make around 600 small dots using really thin plasticard, and then scrap off the old and glue on the new...doesn't that sound like fun!!!!!! :D
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No special 'expertise' claimed here, but I have answered your queries in a PM on the another Forum known for figure painting. ;)
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I just googled your Waldron tool. o_o
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Grant, a must-have tool: http://www.hyperscale.com/2011/reviews/tools/waldronpunchanddiereviewbg_1.htm
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Definitely getting one :D
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Looked it up too; I must admit it's a 'cool tool'! :D
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Ultimately though, I wouldn't be bothered with all that work!
I associate myself with this post :D
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Okay, not at all on my topic but if anyone is serious about buying the Waldron tool you can get them from Roll Models in the USA. If you buy the sub-miniature set and intend on using the very small punches then I would strongly suggest you buy some extras, as they are tiny and after 100s of hammers do tend to bend, making them useless.
All that said, here is some info that you might find useful:
http://s362974870.onlinehome.us/forums/air/index.php?showtopic=234229&st=0&p=2233248&hl=punch%20&%20die%20set&fromsearch=1&#entry2233248
These are some articles on how-to make your own punch and die set:
http://s362974870.onlinehome.us/forums/air/index.php?showtopic=93534&st=0&p=796224&hl=punch%20&%20die%20set&fromsearch=1&#entry796224
http://www.network54.com/Forum/110741/thread/1358879993/...
Enjoy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ;)
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Okay, not at all on my topic but if anyone is serious about buying the Waldron tool you can get them from Roll Models in the USA. If you buy the sub-miniature set and intend on using the very small punches then I would strongly suggest you buy some extras, as they are tiny and after 100s of hammers do tend to bend, making them useless.
All that said, here is some info that you might find useful:
http://www.network54.com/Forum/110741/thread/1358879993/...
Enjoy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ;)
Very useful indeed! Thanks for the tips.
You've got me thinking about my Naps again! lol
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Huh?
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Ilya Ulyanov in his 2008 book 1812: русская пехота в бою mentions the number of buttons on the trouser leggings. By coincidence I happened to come accross it last week.
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Since I know so many of you have been losing sleep over this vitally important topic of the number of buttons on Russian uniforms here is some info back from Alan Perry, who is responsible for the Russian Naps at Perry Miniatures (the ones I am working on).
According to Alan's research, Russian Nap troops had 4 buttons on the gaiters of their summer trousers.
Here are some of the questions I asked Alan and his responses:
Q: On the subject of heads, Alan do you have any immediate plans (next 6 mo) to make available a Nap Russian Grenadier head sets??? I figure you guys didn't go ahead with the release of the Russian Grenadier plastic box due to lack of enough interest/sales.
Alan: The plastic Russian grenadier heads are still very much alive and kicking, there's just been more important things that got in there way.
Q: Moving onto to the extremely important issue of buttons on pants (lol), Alan you might have spotted that I have been trying to ask about exactly how many buttons are on those Russian Nap pants. I have asked on a few forums with mixed results. The Russian sources seem to suggest 7-9 buttons. My research material I have (Courcelle, Russian Marines books, etc, etc...) is equally confusing. So can I ask where you came up with four buttons on the Russian Nap plastics, whereas some of the metal Russian Naps only have three buttons (the Grenadier command set). I know you guys do thoroughly research your work so you clearly know something I don't....Help....???
Alan: You know only needed to ask, it might have spared you quite a few evenings. Most of my reference is packed away as we are having the front of our house rebuilt ! Although you need not look any further than Osprey(!). I've attached a couple of pics from the Russian Infantry book.
(edit: those pics clearly show 4 buttons on a variety of Russian troops).
Yes, there is a variation on the amount of buttons. I wouldn't get too worried about it! It's the same with chin scales on Russian shakos, the central metalworks in Moscow had more urgent things to make than chin scales so they rapidly went over plain leather instead. But you don't see this anywhere. This is from the Hermitage bloke too. I've been putting them on some of the metal figures.
Alan on winter gaiters: I think there were more than one type of winter leg wear. A contact at the Hermitage said that the winter gaiters were simply gaiters buttoned over the summer gaiter-trousers. You do see this in contemporary pictures. You also see the baggier winter types too.
Alan on cuff buttons:...if you look at the cuffs (on the figures) with your magnifier you should find the third buttonhole for the cuffs, as these were often (in most armies) left unbuttoned.
So there you have it, 4 buttons on the summer pants and who really knows about the winter ones...most sources I have found show 7-9 buttons, with 9 more common...and the fact that the pants were bulkier than the summer ones so if you want to recreate these using the Perry Russians you will need to breakout the putty to redo the pants...a tedious job for sure but one that shouldn't be too taxing for those wishing to get it right.
However, that said, I have suggested to Alan that since the Russian Grenadier box is still possible that he do the following:
Q:... I was thinking however that if you redid the pants on the Russian 3-ups to have them more baggy and then added the black sewn-on gaiters then you people could mix and match from your 1st Russian Infantry box to get both uniform types. I know you suggest just painting on the gaiters but I just don't think it would look right, and the pants were baggy, so that would need doing with some putty.
Alan: As for converting the overalls on the 3ups, the 3ups for the Russians are long gone, they don't survive the resining process prior to tooling. That would also add quite a bit of expense, not to mention time,to make a new frame of Russians to go with the heads.
So perhaps the eventually a box of plastic Nap Russian Grenadiers will come with the winter leggings...one can only hope and lobby Alan to do so!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ;) :D ;D
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My apologies, I totally missed the point that these were the summer pants.
Viskovatov seems to studiously avoid illustrating them, which is usually a sign that he doesn't know for sure. Gabayev says 11 buttons. Still, the Perrys might be on to something. I get the impression that the buttons were quite small, but that is just a hunch.