Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => The Second World War => Topic started by: redzed on 07 September 2013, 09:47:38 AM
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Why is terrain usually so ugly at 15mm?
I see lots of really good one-off pieces that have been laboriously painted but then ruined by plonking it on a really ugly game-board.
People seem to spend ages painting their figures to achieve a pleasing and scale effect, only to ruin the look by using horrid looking and garish green trees, or spending a fortune on Tanks etc only to use blue crepe-paper as a river.
Pleas someone post some solid pics of a good looking table using 15mm figures.
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Pleas someone post some solid pics of a good looking table using 15mm figures.
Can't be done. Because 28mm is God's own true scale :D
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Here you go, a few hundred pics:
http://anatolisgameroom.blogspot.se/2013/09/chain-of-command-german-flank-attack.html
http://anatolisgameroom.blogspot.se/2013/08/victory-decision-poles-vs-soviets-1939.html
http://anatolisgameroom.blogspot.se/2013/07/polish-cavalry-regiment-vs-soviet.html
http://anatolisgameroom.blogspot.se/2012/06/north-africa-mega-battle-event-aar.html
http://anatolisgameroom.blogspot.se/2013/02/capturing-wilno-september-19th-1939-aar.html
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that's the sort of thing I was looking for :-*
top post that man.
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I've been doing for Resina Planet some scenery, at the moment the project is freezed (but not stopped):
http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=49732.msg608088#msg608088
I agree, most of the 15mm tables are...approssimative. =(
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wow, that's impressive :o
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We play an annual 15mm Normandy mega-game at the Bovingdon show. Hopefully we put as much effort into making it look good as we do making it historically accurate.
This is our latest Grimbosq: http://www.fireandfury.com/conventions/grimbosqaar.php
http://www.fireandfury.com/conventions/grimbosqaar.pdf
More After Action reports from other games from previous years:
http://www.fireandfury.com/conventions/carpiquetaar.pdf
http://www.fireandfury.com/conventions/bovington2012AAR.pdf
http://www.fireandfury.com/conventions/bovington2010.php
http://www.fireandfury.com/conventions/bovington2010aar.php
http://www.fireandfury.com/conventions/bovington2007/si01.jpg
http://www.fireandfury.com/conventions/bovington2006.php
Paddy
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http://www.fat-wally.com/IABSM.html
http://toofatlardies.co.uk/blog/?p=622
http://toofatlardies.co.uk/blog/?p=568
http://toofatlardies.co.uk/blog/?p=527
http://brigadatripeira.blogspot.pt/2013/08/battlegroup-overlord-part-iii.html
http://www.guildwargamers.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=311&t=28022&p=304062&hilit=15mm#p304062
I think you get good and bad examples regardless of scale and you see more in 15mm as it's perhaps more 'visible' due to the high profile of FoW (and you see good and bad set ups in those games too)
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great post Paddy :D
and thanks NTM, some really nice stuff there :D
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Do you have any examples of the poor terrain you meant? I can think of plenty of examples in 28mm too. lol
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Do you have any examples of the poor terrain you meant? I can think of plenty of examples in 28mm too. lol
Examples? - the FOW forum :D it was whilst looking at some really nice painted figures and vehicles that I was struck by how poor the terrain was in comparison. Very few of the pictures I saw too into account the 'scale effect', although ironically they did when they had painted their armies.
Also I was looking for fantastic 15mm pictures for my 'inspiration' folder.
There's lots of 28mm, some 20mm but hardly any 15mm, considering the popularity of 15mm I was trying to determine why.
..and yes, there's loads of poor 28mm terrain but there's also some amazing bits as well. I've yet to see a 15mm table that knocks my socks off, I've seen a few 6mm tables that are stunning and some 20mm awesomeness.
Yet 15mm still seems to lag behind and there isn't really any reason for it.
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Thanks Red.
Thinking about why so ugly - is it because 15mm is more of a "gaming" scale rather than a "display game" scale?
I only do 15mm and have found that while my stuff may be better painted that corresponding 28mm stuff but it is so small that often the painting doesn't get recognised. Its the same with the terrain. Plus with 15mm you need far more terrain than in 28mm and can't get away with one or two signature pieces.
That said at Bovvy this year we were in the same hall as V's 28mm stuff and so couldn't compete on terrain or figure painting.
Paddy
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That said at Bovvy this year we were in the same hall as V's 28mm stuff and so couldn't compete on terrain or figure painting.
I remember your table now :) it was really good. There was also a 15mm Rhodisain table iirc.
I don't think it's so much the gaming scale, I think it's people not getting the scale effect right for 15mm terrain.
The 20mm guys have it down pat (although it helps that there's so much kit available), with 15mm a lot has to be made from scratch.
Perfect opportunity for a publisher to release a 1/100th How To book.
This a great example of what I'm trying to say-
It's a fairly straightforward set-up, but it's painted in such a way that it could be 20mm or 28mm rather than the 15mm which it is.
There isn't anything there which isn't in any of the FOW forum pictures, but because they've painted the terrain with the scale effect in mind it looks totally different. It loos like a bit of countryside rather than a table with some garish terrain plonked on it.
And the roads go the edge of the table, I know it's not a biggie but the illusion looks so much better than roads which just end in the middle of nowhere (there only 6x4 tables, make a bit more road people :D)
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-v3uTd3L_N_A/UhvMKK5plfI/AAAAAAAAD-E/DsDYNkxIzfI/s1600/1175366_691496710879757_610245578_n.jpg)
(rant mode OFF)
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we usually organize a big FoW tournament in Portugal, the group takes some extra care in order to provide nice gaming tables to the participants, please take a look. Although some of the tables are set up with what we have available, others do have a lot of work done
https://plus.google.com/photos/109897520023440623582/albums/5602229738704562257?banner=pwa
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-Nx8ojlk2fT0/Tb8ehNob3EI/AAAAAAAAGDo/QAMyM3_gJSU/w885-h664-no/DSCN1367.JPG)
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that's a superb looking table and the link is also excellent :-*
This LINK (http://www.g-design.us/bruce/) will take you to some amazing 6mm terrain. But right at the top is a link for a pdf on How To Make Terrain, applicable to any scale. :)
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I'm primarily a 28mm war gamer, so please bear with me, as I make a counter argument. I never use terrain tables as shown in the wonderful work from the link above.
I'm interested in many different eras and have many different armies. I'll simply use an appropriate looking mat for sandy or grassy fields and simply add forests, roads, hills and dwellings on top of the mat. That may require a little more suspension of disbelief than a dedicated terrain table, but it has some advantages.
The biggest disadvantage to 28mm Wargaming is storage of terrain elements. Therefore, most of my houses, roads and others have to do multiple duties, say from the ECW all the way to WW2. Plus, a static terrain table will always have the same features, in exactly the same places. That's fine for a beautiful "one off" game at a convention but it is rather impractical for home. I have no place to put a terrain table like that one Redzed linked to, even if it is for 6mm.
I'm afraid practicality, versatility and storage considerations will always trump a beautiful dedicated terrain table for me. It's a compromise I can live with.
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Practicality doesnt have to be a compromise... None of my tables are 'static' all are just built from a mat over the table upwards;
(http://i576.photobucket.com/albums/ss205/BigP_from_the_GMG/Fall%20of%20the%20Reich/DSCN9963.jpg)
(http://i576.photobucket.com/albums/ss205/BigP_from_the_GMG/Fall%20of%20the%20Reich/FOTR-CityofDeath003.jpg)
(http://i576.photobucket.com/albums/ss205/BigP_from_the_GMG/2013%20BG%20AARs/21stPanzerWin004.jpg)
(http://i576.photobucket.com/albums/ss205/BigP_from_the_GMG/20mm%20WW2%20Normandy/600bgohills002.jpg)
The only game I have done recently that didnt use a mat was our demo at Bovvy that use some basic green flocked tiles...
(http://i576.photobucket.com/albums/ss205/BigP_from_the_GMG/Bovvy%202013/BGO-Bovvy2013002.jpg?t=1373238526)
I think all scales can be made to look good, its just about making the best use of what you have and investing some time and effort into your scenery.
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I'd say it's down to the same reason most Warhammer 40K and War Machine tables look like complete ass: tournament play.
I have some pictures of my buddy's 15mm table from Battle Group Kursk here:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v455/Elbaus/Gaming/DSCN0236_zps13332688.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v455/Elbaus/Gaming/DSCN0235_zps674df812.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v455/Elbaus/Gaming/DSCN0232_zps2dd5508d.jpg)
Simple felt with nice terrain laid out. Quite nice looking table, though I didn't get enough pictures of it.
I think with the FOW crowd you're going to have more people who are worried about points values, performance per point, and the actual objective of winning the game. This is one reason I do my best to keep far away from any game which has "points values". I'll take a historical objective or an out-numbered last stand scenario any day.
You should see the "tournament" tables at some conventions, littered with tree bark and aquarium plants etc. It would drive me absolutely batty to game on something like that. So, I'd argue it's likely an end result of tournament gaming. I know I've played FOW on some beautiful tables, but we always just created a scenario and played it as opposed to competing armies which were calculated out before hand.
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Here's some of the 15mm scale terrain I've built.
http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=48131.0 (http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=48131.0)
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Our 15mm terrain tends to be very plain and functional, but can be quite extensive:
http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=11923.0
Playing PBI rather than FoW we use green cloths for a 4' x 4' table, but the Arnhem layout featured 10 tables in a row. Stalingrad features 15 in a sort of square layout.