Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => Colonial Adventures => Topic started by: smirnoff on 15 September 2013, 06:30:51 PM
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Does anyone know of any figures suitable for the Punjab Regiments, Bengal Infantry, in the 1890's gentlemen?
Got Foundry Guides.....
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Foundry also make Sikh infantry both in their old NWF range: http://www.wargamesfoundry.com/our-ranges/colonial/north-west-frontier/north-west-frontier-best-sellers-collection-bcnw001/
and there are some in the Darkest Africa range: http://www.wargamesfoundry.com/our-ranges/darkest-africa/dark-continent-collection-bcda009/
If you're not especially fussy about armament and finer uniform details you can, of course, borrow some from the Perry's Sudan range.
Old Glory make some Indian infantry that are just about OK: http://www.oldgloryminiatures.com/proddetail.asp?prod=CNB-02
There are others out there but personally I think the sculpting is sub-par.
Empress have been threatening/promising a Chitral range for a good while now but seem to have been distracted by their Jazz Age range instead...if I keep on mentioning it maybe they'll get around to them...
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I was going to suggest Perry Suran as well.
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Copplestone also makes Indian Muslim and Sikh Infantry in their WWI range. The troops do have ammo cross-belts and magazine rifles, but the Lee Metford and Lee Enfield are similar looking in the magazine department.
Bicorne also produces Sikh and Bombay Infantry for their 2nd Afghan War line, and Eureka has Sikh Pioneers. Old Glory's figures have previously been mentioned. Their Sikhs are small compared to Foundry or Copplestone, but they paint up nice.
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Thanks both, I should have been clearer; in addition to the Guides (and Gurkhas) I have the Sikhs, it's Hindi troops I'm after, can't find anything with the right headgear never mind equipment...
I've not seen the Woodbine Hindi heads; are they the correct setup for a conversion does anyone know?
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Castaway Arts also has a nice range of Indian infantry. https://secure.iig.com.au/castawayarts/index.php?cmd=store (https://secure.iig.com.au/castawayarts/index.php?cmd=store)
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Castaway Arts also has a nice range of Indian infantry. https://secure.iig.com.au/castawayarts/index.php?cmd=store (https://secure.iig.com.au/castawayarts/index.php?cmd=store)
Thanks...but no Punjabi's........
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I used OG as filler with some Foundry
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Copplestone also makes Indian Muslim and Sikh Infantry in their WWI range. The troops do have ammo cross-belts and magazine rifles, but the Lee Metford and Lee Enfield are similar looking in the magazine department.
Bicorne also produces Sikh and Bombay Infantry for their 2nd Afghan War line, and Eureka has Sikh Pioneers. Old Glory's figures have previously been mentioned. Their Sikhs are small compared to Foundry or Copplestone, but they paint up nice.
Thinks I'm going bonkers...missed this Rob..I will have a squint, cheers
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Thanks both, I should have been clearer; in addition to the Guides (and Gurkhas) I have the Sikhs, it's Hindi troops I'm after, can't find anything with the right headgear never mind equipment...
I've not seen the Woodbine Hindi heads; are they the correct setup for a conversion does anyone know?
here you go
http://www.grippingbeast.com/product.php?ItemID=2653
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Thanks Lowtardog
Those heads look OK to me; it may be conversion time....
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Yes, you should have been clearer :-[
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Duly noted
I have put myself on latrine duties...
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Well don't let it happen again and we'll say no more about it.
But in all seriousnes it is a gap in the limited ranges that are available.
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Right, well that's the latrines dug and sorted
So...can you gentlemen illuminate me as to who produces the best 25-28mm Ammunition Mules in this scale?
And does anyone do a loaded mule that will work for the Sappers and Miners?
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These look ok, towards bottom of page
http://www.tigerminiatures.co.uk/page12.htm
Foundry, Brigade Games, Warlord and TAG do pack mules too
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Thanks
Ordered a couple of TAGs
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Probably a bit late but I've got some that I think came from Dixon's Dahomey range.
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Old Glory does Sikh or Indian Mountain guns. They come with plenty of mules loaded with kit - they're designed to be carrying the guns, so they'd make good pack or ammunition mules.
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Cheers gents
I have some mules carrying a mountain gun from Brigade; not totally accurate but it will do me
Got a bag of the Eureka Sappers; okish but nothing to write home about IMHO.
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TAG pack mules arrived and they are lovely sculpts
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Gents
Anyone have a view on the correct banner/flag for the Mad Mullah (NWF 97-8)?
Green Jihad flag?
Black?
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The only photo of banners from this period that I can think of is this one:
http://www.itv.com/news/central/2012-09-12/wreath-laying-for-sikhs-killed-in-battle/
I think that there is a description in Churchill's "Story of the Malakand Field Force" that describes banners of all shapes, sizes and colours. I'll double check that one and get back to you...
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To quote Churchill:
"Gay banners of every colour, shape and device, waved from the surrounding hills."
I don't recall reading a description of the Mad Mullah's own flag/standard/banner. In the absence of evidence I would be happy to issue one "artistic licence, wargamer, for the use of".
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Thanks Hobbit
Not got to that passage in Churchill yet (excellent book I think)
Still, plenty of scope for flags when the Mullah does not take the field
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Churchill also made mention at one point of viewing tribal forces arrayed along a crest and their red flags were visible. Forget the exact wording but it suggested that the red flags were the only ones that stood out at that distance, the other coloured flags being either too dark or too light to clearly show on the sky line.
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There's a searchable pdf here:
http://pdfbooks.co.za/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=7565&Itemid=35
I think the quote is:
"It was evident, as the Guides Cavalry approached the hills, that resistance was contemplated. Several red standards were visible to the naked eye, and the field-glasses disclosed numerous figures lining the ridges and spurs."
I think that it is a magnificent book, I've read many about the frontier but Churchill's is by far the best and packed with relevant detail for the gamer.
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"I think that it is a magnificent book, I've read many about the frontier but Churchill's is by far the best and packed with relevant detail for the gamer."
Agreed. I've gamed a couple of scenarios from the book
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Hi Guys,
Probably a bit late, but Ironclad do a range of Second Afgan War:
http://www.ironcladminiatures.co.uk/shop/category_39/Second-Afghan-war.html
Rodge, I know we were looking at their site the other day, but think we managed to miss these!
Mo
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Just finished the bulk of the 28s for the 1897-8 Rebellion.
100ish a side plus British mountain guns, maxims and associated mules to carry them (did a simple conversion of a TAG mule to carry a maxim, worked OK)
Bulk of the figures are Foundry (Gordons, a Line Unit, and the Guides Infantry, Sikhs and Gurkhas from the Piffers)
Small Unit of Eureka Bombay Sappers and Miners and some rather nice (if inaccurate if you are strict for this period) Brits from Pontooner.
Collection also includes some European civilians (Perry War Correspondents) and a couple of ladies from Copplestone.
No 'Brit' cavalry as yet...must admit I don't know if the OG dismounted Indian Cav will work with the Foundry Guides Cav?
Pashtun/Pathans are Foundry jezail armed infantry, cavalry and sword armed Ghazi (with a few Mutineer Miniatures mixed in) and rifled armed (inaccurately where the Lee Enfields are concerned but I'm not fussed) from Empress.
Now...build the NWF. Am going to try the woodchip method:
http://maiwandday.blogspot.it/2012/01/afghannwf-rocky-hill-goes-vertical-back.html
I will push this lot forward in time to 3rd Afghan War and later conflicts next year when I have time.
But a big thank you to all on this and the T&T thread that helped me out.
One thing I am unsure of is the use of smokeless powder.
I thought everyone was still using cartridges/charges that produced smoke...is that correct for small arms?
I thought that the mountain guns also still used the same but read in Richards' 'The Savage Frontier' that some Piffer mountain batteries used smokeless charges...
Any help, as usual, gratefully accepted....
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One thing I am unsure of is the use of smokeless powder.
I thought everyone was still using cartridges/charges that produced smoke...is that correct for small arms?
Depends what rifles the troops had. Martini-Henries, Martini-Metfords and Lee-Metfords used black powder. Lee-Enfields and Martini-Enfields used smokeless powder.
I'm not altogether up to speed on who had what during the campaign you are interested in. All of those rifles were in service at the time, I think (maybe not the Martini-Henry), the single-shot ones being used by Indian troops and the magazine rifles by the British.
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Thanks
Way I will do it is the Gordons and the Line troops get Lee-Metfords
As will a Pashtun sniper
Everyone else gets Martini-Henrys bar the Jezail armed Pashtuns
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I'm not sure whether or not they were still using Martini-Henries at that time. I've got a feeling everything had gone over to .303. But as a Martini-Metford looks identical to a Martini-Henry it isn't something we need to worry over. :)
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Barthorpe in 'The Frontier Ablaze' has Brit Line Batts using Lee-Metford Mk1s in this campaign with Indian troops armed with Martini-Henrys.
Dunno if this is gospel...
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My understanding is that when the British regiments transferred to the Lee Metford in the 1890s (replacing the Martini Henry), the Indian regiments were given the Martini Henry to replace their old Snider rifles. This was because of a hangover from the post-Mutiny organisation that always ensured the British regiments had the superior weaponry. I don't know at what point this altered, or at what point the Lee Metford was replaced. Is this gospel truth? Dunno...it's what pretty much all the books seem to say.
All the pics in Barthorp's books and pretty much all the others I have seen have the Indian regiments armed with Martini Henry in the great Pathan revolt of 1897.
It does present interesting rules questions, as the Lee metford had superior range (and rate of fire being a magazine rifle, although magazine fire was reserved for desperate situations) to the Martini Henry, which was in turn slightly superior to the Snider (although both the latter were breech loading single shot rifles.) All apparently outranged the Pathan weaponry (although some wargame rules give the Pathan muzzle-loading jezail a longer range than a rifle, which always struck me as odd, athough it clearly should outrange the musket in 1st Afghan war scenarios, etc.)
Barthorp makes the point that, by 1897, many tribesmen had access to Enfields, Sniders and some Martini Henry rifles which brought them worryingly close to the Indian troops in terms of range, rate of fire, etc, which, given the tribesmen's natural marksmanship, can't have been good for the Anglo-Indians!
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It does present interesting rules questions, as the Lee metford had superior range (and rate of fire being a magazine rifle, although magazine fire was reserved for desperate situations) to the Martini Henry, which was in turn slightly superior to the Snider (although both the latter were breech loading single shot rifles.) All apparently outranged the Pathan weaponry (although some wargame rules give the Pathan muzzle-loading jezail a longer range than a rifle, which always struck me as odd, athough it clearly should outrange the musket in 1st Afghan war scenarios, etc.)
It is odd that some rules make the Jezail better range wise than the rifles (even if the Jezail can only fire every other turn).
I will use T&T for this period and may well just shorten the Jezail range given in the Colonial suppliment
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The Martini-Metford came out in the late 1880s, and the Martini-Enfield in the mid 1890s. Somebody was issued with them, and it wasn't British regulars.
I'm just wondering whether authors are using "Martini-Henry" in a generic sense, when they actually mean one of the later model Martinis (or they don't know the difference). They are after all, until inspected closely, virtually identical.
I don't know, I'm just wondering. It's also equally plausible that it took a long time for the full transition to 303 to happen.
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The Martini-Metford came out in the late 1880s, and the Martini-Enfield in the mid 1890s. Somebody was issued with them, and it wasn't British regulars.
I'm just wondering whether authors are using "Martini-Henry" in a generic sense, when they actually mean one of the later model Martinis (or they don't know the difference). They are after all, until inspected closely, virtually identical.
I don't know, I'm just wondering. It's also equally plausible that it took a long time for the full transition to 303 to happen.
Good point! I didn't even know about the later Martini variants. I presume they were all single shot breechloaders like the original Martini Henry?
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Yeah, still single shot, with the same lever action. Originally they were Martini-Henry rifles given new barrels. Later they were manufactured new. The Martini-Metford fired the black powder 303 Lee-Metford round, and the Martini-Enfield fired the smokeless powder 303 Lee-Enfield round.
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I did some research on this a couple of years back that included a catalogue from the patern room at Enfield. I do recall that some models of the Mrtini-Henry were specific to the Indian Army, I don't recall reading that the Martini-Enfield was issued to them. Off the top of my head the only reference that I can think of to the Martini-Enfield being used in anger is by some of the Imperial Service Troops in 1914ish in East Africa. Indian regiments serving in China in 1900 had been issued with Lee-Metfords - perhaps it was thought that they were less likely to mutiny in the middle of China.
Reading the original British "Infantry Training" manuals from 1888 and 1896 (and I do mean original, complete with the owners' penciled in notes) the only difference in the tactical employment of the Martini-Henry and the Lee-Metford appeared to be that the "effective" range was increased from 400 yards to 500 yards. Sniders were still in use by some 2nd line troops by this point but according to one account of the action at Chitral they were so worn out that they were essentially smoothbores and were referred to as "gas-pipe guns" - it is anyone's guess as to what the "effective" range for these would have been, but the Kashmir Rifles using them were very roughly handled and apparently shot appalingly badly during the recce from Chitral Fort.
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Excellent info Hobbit, many thanks
I expect the training manuals were a joy to behold.....
Just reading 'Passing It On'
Cracking book
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Few pics from my new stash of NWF lead
Some were not terrain based when I did the images
Brigadier Linn of the Gordon’s
(http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u26/scotsbrigade/NWF/ScreenShot2013-09-30at165458.png) (http://s164.photobucket.com/user/scotsbrigade/media/NWF/ScreenShot2013-09-30at165458.png.html)
Never tried Tartan before….
Lord Gordon Grey
(http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u26/scotsbrigade/NWF/ScreenShot2013-09-30at170105.png) (http://s164.photobucket.com/user/scotsbrigade/media/NWF/ScreenShot2013-09-30at170105.png.html)
Screw Gun (not sure I got the barrel colour right…)
(http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u26/scotsbrigade/NWF/ScreenShot2013-09-30at171425.png) (http://s164.photobucket.com/user/scotsbrigade/media/NWF/ScreenShot2013-09-30at171425.png.html)
Basic conversion of a TAG mule into a Maxim Mule
(http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u26/scotsbrigade/NWF/photo2.jpg) (http://s164.photobucket.com/user/scotsbrigade/media/NWF/photo2.jpg.html)
(http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u26/scotsbrigade/NWF/photo3.jpg) (http://s164.photobucket.com/user/scotsbrigade/media/NWF/photo3.jpg.html)
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excellent posting and picts....it push me to revamp my (unfinised) NWF troops that are sleeping in the cellar :)
one question about those nice TAG mules. (they also produce some stubborn mules)..are they really compatible in size with OG, Foundry, Empress, Perry 25/28 mm minis..or are those kind of big toys (Redoubt..ecc) that make them untouchable by guys like me that own classic size collection?..also their horses seem nice ..maybe to use for Asiatic tribesmen riders.
regards
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Thanks
The mules work fine with Foundry (even though the original Foundry British and Scots troops are quite small), Empress and Pontoonier.
The TAG mules are nice sculpts
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Those are some seriously nice pics! I am in the middle of a bunch of Foundry Sikhs and Gurkhas at the moment, as I'm back onto my stalled NW Frontier project as I'm finding khaki-clad Brits and largely white-clad Pathans much easier to paint than the mountain of Fantasy stuff I'm winding my way through!! I'll post some pics as soon as I get the current two units done...
I have a right old mix of stuff...Foundry Brit horse artillery, Sikhs, Gurkhas and Guides, Empress and Pontoonier Brits, Perry Highlanders and Bengal Lancers, Castaway Arts Sikhs and Bengal Lancers and a mass of Old Glory and castaway Arts Pathans. I also have a load of Foundry Afghan regulars in the loft, although they are well down the painting queue, as I want to have enough units for a decent size T&T game with Anglo-Indians vs Pathans before I put Afghan regulars into the mix.
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Cheers...I'll post more images soon.
Have you seen/got the OG Dismounted Indian Cavalry?
I have never seen them and need a Guides Cavalry Unit (Foundry) with dismounts.
If they are good sculpts I'll waive the usual OG problem; 30 of them in a pack, 21 of which are surplus to requirements......
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There is a photo of them here: http://www.oldgloryminiatures.com/proddetail.asp?prod=CNB-11
Unfortunately not a very good photo. It looks like they're fairly typical OG sculpts. If I had the time or inclination I think I'd probably convert nicer sculpts but (semi-intended pun) it is horses for courses :)
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Thanks Lowtardog
Those heads look OK to me; it may be conversion time....
Sorry if i return on this matter..but this coffe time conversation with you and other NWF experts really enjoyed me...i suppose that the only Latin fan (crazy people) of NWF are me and my friend Piero ...
in fact those woodbines heads seem very useful for conversions..i already selected in my wish list Indian Hindu heads (suppose they are punjab type heads) and Wolseley Helmet heads (to use for late 19 c. British Officers in NWF/Sudan) plus Senegalese, Fusiliers Marins and French Pith Helemt for similar use...but do you think they could be ok, as concern size, for converting Foundry Indians and similar scaled minis that belong to my collection?
regards
Pier
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If I had the time or inclination I think I'd probably convert nicer sculpts but (semi-intended pun) it is horses for courses :)
Thanks for the image link; seen it before and it is a bad shot
I'm up for conversions though Hobbit
What would you use for the dismounted Guides Cav? Woodbine Hindu section?
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I'll have a think on it.
However I wanted to share this link: http://www.britishbattles.com/north-west-frontier-india/seige-relief-chitral.htm
I've done more than my fair share of reading on the NWF but about half of the pictures on the linked webpage are new to me.
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And another image that is new to me:http://www.bbc.co.uk/arts/yourpaintings/paintings/a-mounted-sowar-in-drab-full-dress-guides-cavalry-182854
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Hmm, Ok, having had a think on it and a bit of a Google I cant think of an obvious donor figure. There are so many minor differences between the WW1 figures and Guides that you may as well use something like NWF Sikhs...
If you're really, really into your conversions you could hack apart cavalry figures and re-pose them but that is way beyond my modelling skill. The conversion suggestion was probably a case of opening mouth before engaging brain lol
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I think it will be OG...
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Of no relevance to your latest query, but I've just spotted these chaps who I'd not seen before: http://newlinedesigns.co.uk/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=521_522&products_id=6948
It looks like they're armed with Lee-metfords
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Thats a find Hobbit
Many thanks
I had missed those......