Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => The Conflicts that came in from the Cold => Topic started by: Westfalia Chris on May 23, 2008, 04:37:06 PM
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Not yet fully committed, but I may embark on another mini-project (oh dear) in the shape of some skirmish stuff for the Suez Crisis, namely Israelis and Arabs. Personally, I think that any of the Arab-Israeli Wars apart from the first Sinai Campaign (ie the Israeli involvement in 1956) is an area too touchy to be "gamed", but Suez I regard as a "Late Colonial" thing.
Since we had a public holiday yesterday and I scored an "A" in the last Statistics test, I decided to have some fun and assemble one of the two Hobby Boss M4A1 76w´s I bought at Model Zone in London on my February trip. I already have a GI Army, and since those don´t get played with that often any more, I settled for the Israeli variant (although I took some liberty with the sand colour, which, according to the dubious instructions should be a very greenish khaki, almost bronze green; the photos of the tank in question looked far lighter, so I settled for a base coat of WW2 Russian Uniform, highlighted with German Ochre, Khaki and Buff (all Vallejo paints).
Stowage is scratchbuilt (boxes), kit (toolbox on the engine deck, canister and some of the packs) and cast (bedrolls etc.)
(http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg236/Christian_S_1979/Modelling%20and%20Miniatures/Tzahal/TZAHAL_M4A1_76W_01.jpg)
Photos are taken by daylight, so on my Laptop, they are reasonably close to what the actual model looks like.
Cheers!
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Those look the business to me! I really like the weathering you did on them. Putting any crew in thos open hatches?
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Very nice Westfalia Chris. I've just started working on gaming AIWs myself... although I'm going for a much smaller scale. Not sure if you've seen it yet, but there is a Yahoo group for AIW.
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Excellent work. 8)
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Those look the business to me! I really like the weathering you did on them. Putting any crew in thos open hatches?
Er, yes of course. I just forgot to put it into the post above - I´m thinking about painting a platoon of Israelis (Artizan NW Europe Commandos and Paras) and a platoon of Egyptians (Artizan LRDG) to play some games. There might be a "T&T Post-War" supplement in this, but don´t bet on it.
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Those look the business to me! I really like the weathering you did on them. Putting any crew in thos open hatches?
Er, yes of course. I just forgot to put it into the post above - I´m thinking about painting a platoon of Israelis (Artizan NW Europe Commandos and Paras) and a platoon of Egyptians (Artizan LRDG) to play some games. There might be a "T&T Post-War" supplement in this, but don´t bet on it.
That would be pretty cool, actually. Every once in a while I get a hankering to do Korea, and would be more likely to do so with a decent set of rules.
Awesome job on the Isherman, Chris. I like the wear on the hull.
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Fantastic looking model Chris! I think you are pretty much spot on with the Colour too.
I'm not sure using LRDG figures will be quite right for Egyptian troops though. WW2 British types might be better, with the ubiquitous British WW2 steel helmet or the 1944 pattern. I'm pretty sure the Keffiyeh (Head Scarf) wasn't common amongst Egyptian troops. They did have some Palestinian units who would have worn it though.
I could be wrong though :D
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Very nice, WestFC - and congrats on the statistics result 8)
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Congratulations for the A
The tank is nice too ;)
Cheers mate
Björn
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There might be a "T&T Post-War" supplement in this, but don´t bet on it.
That would be pretty cool, actually. Every once in a while I get a hankering to do Korea, and would be more likely to do so with a decent set of rules.
We´re still pretty baffled at how to integrate the horrible level of squad firepower that emerged during WW2. Generally, I think that the rules would work, but you would have to limit some aspects rather strictly. And I positively do not know how to represent a squad MG or GPMG without it being a killer.
Awesome job on the Isherman, Chris. I like the wear on the hull.
*Tank Geek Mode on*
Actually, it is not an Isherman, which is the name used for the M51, which was a conversion usually of M4A3E8 chassis and hulls with a French 105mm cannon in a heavily-modified turret. The above is a standard M4A1 which was supplied by the French just prior to the Suez Crisis for the first time and several times thereafter until the start of the embargo in 1967.
I'm not sure using LRDG figures will be quite right for Egyptian troops though. WW2 British types might be better, with the ubiquitous British WW2 steel helmet or the 1944 pattern. I'm pretty sure the Keffiyeh (Head Scarf) wasn't common amongst Egyptian troops. They did have some Palestinian units who would have worn it though.
I could be wrong though
You are not. I had the picture of Arab Legion on my mind. For regular Egyptians in 1956, a more regulated dress should be adopted, and I had this in mind but jumbled the figs in the above post. The keffiyeh guys would either go for Arab Legion or the Palestinians, I agree.
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*Tank Geek Mode on*
Actually, it is not an Isherman, which is the name used for the M51, which was a conversion usually of M4A3E8 chassis and hulls with a French 105mm cannon in a heavily-modified turret. The above is a standard M4A1 which was supplied by the French just prior to the Suez Crisis for the first time and several times thereafter until the start of the embargo in 1967.
Kamerade! Kamerade! lol
(I have no idea how you'd fix the firepower thing in T&T. Maybe have squad MGs only send units into some kind of suppression? It's an interesting idea, though.)
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We´re still pretty baffled at how to integrate the horrible level of squad firepower that emerged during WW2. Generally, I think that the rules would work, but you would have to limit some aspects rather strictly. And I positively do not know how to represent a squad MG or GPMG without it being a killer.
Well good luck with that. Unfortunately the maxim of modern warfare is that 'if you can be seen, you're dead'. Modern troops hug the ground or any available cover a lot. On the plus side the MG has become a weapon used to pin troops in their cover so you can move men into a position where they can see and kill them. What Pete said in essence.
Obviously a MG in ambush will be a killer, no way round that really, so the onus is on the player to ensure his men don't blunder into its field of fire.
Maybe you should accept that the weaponry used is deadly and use the initiative of firer/fired upon to assess how well they respond to being fired upon. High initiative troops would hit the dirt quickly and thus minimize their casualties, while low initiative troops might not. Likewise the firers would rely on their initiative to wait for the right time to fire or opening up too early etc.
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We´re still pretty baffled at how to integrate the horrible level of squad firepower that emerged during WW2. Generally, I think that the rules would work, but you would have to limit some aspects rather strictly. And I positively do not know how to represent a squad MG or GPMG without it being a killer.
Well good luck with that. Unfortunately the maxim of modern warfare is that 'if you can be seen, you're dead'. Modern troops hug the ground or any available cover a lot. On the plus side the MG has become a weapon used to pin troops in their cover so you can move men into a position where they can see and kill them. What Pete said in essence.
Obviously a MG in ambush will be a killer, no way round that really, so the onus is on the player to ensure his men don't blunder into its field of fire.
Maybe you should accept that the weaponry used is deadly and use the initiative of firer/fired upon to assess how well they respond to being fired upon. High initiative troops would hit the dirt quickly and thus minimize their casualties, while low initiative troops might not. Likewise the firers would rely on their initiative to wait for the right time to fire or opening up too early etc.
Certainly. Of course, you will have noted that T&T is rather stiff in the penalties for firing and moving, so decisions will be even more crucial. I think the solution is hidden somewhere in the Initative rules.
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Operation Overlord / Operation WW2 has an interesting approach with spotting ranges depending on the action the target has done. You move? better to see. You shot? Even more so. You stay heads down? Can't be seen unless the attacker is very close.
I think allowing smoke bombs should help, too.
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Isn't there a Dennis Potter musical about the Suez crisis? I remember something like that from the telly? The Prime Minister (Eden?) goes mad right in the middle of it all?
EDIT: Lipstick on Your Collar, that's the one! With Ewan McGregor. Bless Wikipedia.
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Isn't there a Dennis Potter musical about the Suez crisis? I remember something like that from the telly? The Prime Minister (Eden?) goes mad right in the middle of it all?
EDIT: Lipstick on Your Collar, that's the one! With Ewan McGregor. Bless Wikipedia.
It's being repeated on one of the cable channels atm iirc. Not much military relevance, but very funny.
Operation Overlord / Operation WW2 has an interesting approach with spotting ranges depending on the action the target has done. You move? better to see. You shot? Even more so. You stay heads down? Can't be seen unless the attacker is very close.
I think allowing smoke bombs should help, too.
Systems like that are good, but at skirmish ranges, you'd have to be blind not to see someone not in cover in many cases. Having said that the alternative is that the game is over once one player finds a position with a field of fire that covers most of the table.
Smoke bombs yes... they were designed to provide temporary cover to move troops around.
Maybe we should be tighter on arcs of fire? A machine gun position is pretty much enclosed to protect the crew, so their vision is restricted to their designated field of fire... obviously things would change if they popped up to look around :)
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Ok, Chris has started something now... I've been scouring the web for suitable figures for the Arab-Israeli Wars in 28mm and...... nada.
Vehicle wise it isn't too bad, plenty of WW2 surplus knocking about and some more recent vehicles... but figure wise nothing except Israeli Paras for 1982 onwards.
Eureka miniatures 'Musorians' appear to fit the bill for Egyptians/Syrians from about 1967 onwards, but apparently they are a lot smaller than anyone else's figures.
Some of the WW2 ranges are suitable, but where you have the right uniform the case is usually that you have the wrong weapons and vice versa.
Unless someone knows something I don't? mhmm?
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Very nice! What are you going to be using for infantry?
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Nice work Chris,
I love this period of AFVs especially the Soviets! 8)
Thankyou for sharing your story.
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Very nice! What are you going to be using for infantry?
Primarily Late WW2 British infantry and Paratroopers for the Israelis. Still checking what will work for Egyptians.
@Helen:
Thanks for the kind words! Indeed, I´m looking forward to doing some Egyptian T-34/85s and maybe an assault gun, two.
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Very nice! What are you going to be using for infantry?
Primarily Late WW2 British infantry and Paratroopers for the Israelis. Still checking what will work for Egyptians.
@Helen:
Thanks for the kind words! Indeed, I´m looking forward to doing some Egyptian T-34/85s and maybe an assault gun, two.
Don't forget the Universal carriers, Archer & Charioteer Tank destroyers, Valentines, Shermans, IS3 and Centurions for the Egyptians too :D
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Very nice! What are you going to be using for infantry?
Primarily Late WW2 British infantry and Paratroopers for the Israelis. Still checking what will work for Egyptians.
@Helen:
Thanks for the kind words! Indeed, I´m looking forward to doing some Egyptian T-34/85s and maybe an assault gun, two.
Don't forget the Universal carriers, Archer & Charioteer Tank destroyers, Valentines, Shermans, IS3 and Centurions for the Egyptians too :D
Isn´t it great? Like a "Best of WW2". Or, if you feel mean, "Resteessen" (ie a hodgepodge dinner made from numerous leftovers...)... ;)
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Very nice! What are you going to be using for infantry?
Primarily Late WW2 British infantry and Paratroopers for the Israelis. Still checking what will work for Egyptians.
@Helen:
Thanks for the kind words! Indeed, I´m looking forward to doing some Egyptian T-34/85s and maybe an assault gun, two.
Don't forget the Universal carriers, Archer & Charioteer Tank destroyers, Valentines, Shermans, IS3 and Centurions for the Egyptians too :D
Isn´t it great? Like a "Best of WW2". Or, if you feel mean, "Resteessen" (ie a hodgepodge dinner made from numerous leftovers...)... ;)
It gets even better if you go back to '48, which features the also rans like the R35. I can't recall which war it was, but the Egyptians are supposed to have fielded some Panzer IV's too.
I really do think it would make an excellent period to game.
I'm curious why you feel the later wars are not 'politically correct' to game though. I would probably agree as far as the Intifada goes and perhaps the Lebanon Campaign of the 80's too, but imo '67 & '73 are pretty safe ground.
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I definately think '67 & '73 are "safe" to play. I've actually started researching rules and doing some reading. If you get a chance send a PM to Maksim-Smelchak on this forum too, he's given me lots of useful info.
Anyway.. I saw this link about a model of a converted WWII aircraft used by the Israeli Airforce in '48.
http://modelingmadness.com/scotts/korean/s199.htm (http://modelingmadness.com/scotts/korean/s199.htm)
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It gets even better if you go back to '48, which features the also rans like the R35. I can't recall which war it was, but the Egyptians are supposed to have fielded some Panzer IV's too.
Those were Syrian Panzer IVs in 1967. The War of Independence is, of course, rather fascinating as well, but I want my Shermans, and those were in rather short supply in 1948. Of course, all those improvised armoured cars would make for a rather interesting approach as well.
I really do think it would make an excellent period to game.
Agreed.
I'm curious why you feel the later wars are not 'politically correct' to game though. I would probably agree as far as the Intifada goes and perhaps the Lebanon Campaign of the 80's too, but imo '67 & '73 are pretty safe ground.
Yes, it´s a bit incongruous. I should have included the Six Day War as well, and maybe Yom Kippur as well. After that, as you mentioned, it becomes rather touchy, with Israel becoming a ruthless occupator and all that. "In Beirut, there´s a 14-front civil war, as usual". I couldn´t pin-point it, and since I already have US Marines vs. SOuth American Guerillas, I would say it doesn´t really run to reasons of political correctness. It´s probably because Suez was a bit more of an "even-sided affair" and not as "pre-determined outcome-looking" like the two following wars.
And I currently really like the 1950s. I had also thought about doing some Algeria stuff, and have some early Vietnam figures and choppers in 1/72nd scale.
I´ll think about the affair and post a more lucid text in your open talk thread later.
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Ok, Chris has started something now... I've been scouring the web for suitable figures for the Arab-Israeli Wars in 28mm and...... nada.
Vehicle wise it isn't too bad, plenty of WW2 surplus knocking about and some more recent vehicles... but figure wise nothing except Israeli Paras for 1982 onwards.
Eureka miniatures 'Musorians' appear to fit the bill for Egyptians/Syrians from about 1967 onwards, but apparently they are a lot smaller than anyone else's figures.
Some of the WW2 ranges are suitable, but where you have the right uniform the case is usually that you have the wrong weapons and vice versa.
Unless someone knows something I don't? mhmm?
Try Mongrel miniatures Syrians and some of the Afghan regulars would fit OK. Brookes miniatures also have some general figures for Eastern block which could be used with a bit of a paint job.
I was talking to John from Force of Arms, he is working on some Arab Israeli vehicles and thinking of a figure range
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Those were Syrian Panzer IVs in 1967.
Yes you're correct, I forget you are a tank geek sometimes lol
And I currently really like the 1950s. I had also thought about doing some Algeria stuff, and have some early Vietnam figures and choppers in 1/72nd scale.
Oddly enough I've been looking at Algeria and to a lesser extent Indochina too. I had also considered Portugal's Colonial wars as well as Rhodesia, but figures and vehicles are very limited at present in 28mm. These appear to be mostly small actions, so would be ideal at that scale.
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Those were Syrian Panzer IVs in 1967.
Yes you're correct, I forget you are a tank geek sometimes lol
I prefer "armour aficionado", but a rose is a rose by any other name, as are morbid obsessions... ;)
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Those were Syrian Panzer IVs in 1967.
Yes you're correct, I forget you are a tank geek sometimes lol
I prefer "armour aficionado", but a rose is a rose by any other name, as are morbid obsessions... ;)
I prefer to be called a 'military simulation enthusiast' but most just call me a 'sad twat'. lol
Incidentally... you may have already found this but, here's some eye candy for you... http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=7168 (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=7168)
Try Mongrel miniatures Syrians and some of the Afghan regulars would fit OK. Brookes miniatures also have some general figures for Eastern block which could be used with a bit of a paint job.
I was talking to John from Force of Arms, he is working on some Arab Israeli vehicles and thinking of a figure range
I'd somehow missed noticing the Syrians on the Mongrel site, so thanks. Welcome news about FAA too :)
I definately think '67 & '73 are "safe" to play. I've actually started researching rules and doing some reading. If you get a chance send a PM to Maksim-Smelchak on this forum too, he's given me lots of useful info.
Anyway.. I saw this link about a model of a converted WWII aircraft used by the Israeli Airforce in '48.
http://modelingmadness.com/scotts/korean/s199.htm (http://modelingmadness.com/scotts/korean/s199.htm)
There are some really interesting aircraft used in the wars and the same comments apply as with the tanks and vehicles.... Where else would you find the Avro Anson used as a bomber?
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Those were Syrian Panzer IVs in 1967.
Yes you're correct, I forget you are a tank geek sometimes lol
I prefer "armour aficionado", but a rose is a rose by any other name, as are morbid obsessions... ;)
I prefer to be called a 'military simulation enthusiast' but most just call me a 'sad twat'. lol
They just do not understand us, do they! lol
Incidentally... you may have already found this but, here's some eye candy for you... http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=7168 (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=7168)
Beautiful. I´ve got quite a number of links on Latrun, plus some magazines, but that one is new! Thank you very much!
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At SESWC we tinkered with Suez in 15mm as an AK47 campaign.
WW2 British Para as British Paras funnily enough.
WW2 US marines as French paras.
Late war brits as Egyptians.
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And I currently really like the 1950s. I had also thought about doing some Algeria stuff, and have some early Vietnam figures and choppers in 1/72nd scale.
I´ll think about the affair and post a more lucid text in your open talk thread later.
Yes, yes yes! Post-war is most awesome and its just such a pity nobody does figs: we need Aden, Palestine 1945-8, Suez, Indochina, Algeria, Malaya, Rhodesia, Portuguese Colonial Wars (cavalry, African marines, oh my!), Cyprus insurgency, India '47, Borneo, Morrrocan Troubles, French in Zaire '71 etc. etc.
Sad that only the 20mm crowd get to play that stuff. :( Still, at the rate Paul Hicks sculpts stuff we'll probably have ranges for it all in about three weeks!
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And I currently really like the 1950s. I had also thought about doing some Algeria stuff, and have some early Vietnam figures and choppers in 1/72nd scale.
I´ll think about the affair and post a more lucid text in your open talk thread later.
Yes, yes yes! Post-war is most awesome and its just such a pity nobody does figs: we need Aden, Palestine 1945-8, Suez, Indochina, Algeria, Malaya, Rhodesia, Portuguese Colonial Wars (cavalry, African marines, oh my!), Cyprus insurgency, India '47, Borneo, Morrrocan Troubles, French in Zaire '71 etc. etc.
Sad that only the 20mm crowd get to play that stuff. :( Still, at the rate Paul Hicks sculpts stuff we'll probably have ranges for it all in about three weeks!
I sort of came to a similar conclusion... by the time I've planned, got the cash together, procrastinated a bit more etc, there will no doubt be a range of what I want. lol
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Alrighty then! Since Round 8 is over, here are some better pictures of the halftrack and the infantry, the latter being a bit of an "experiment" with some old British Commandos I had, perchance, lying around, to see if painting was enough to make them look "Israeli" (in my book, they do).
(http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg236/Christian_S_1979/Modelling%20and%20Miniatures/Tzahal/M3_HALFTRACK.jpg)
The halftrack was originally a Solido 1/50th scale HMC used with my WW2 GIs, but since I usually took the 105 as a towed gun, I decided to do some converting and use it for the Israelis. Cut up the right half of the drivers front and replaced it with plasticard, then added loads of stowage and pintles for the machine guns.
Next, the infantry as seen in last round´s entry. Black Tree Designs.
(http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg236/Christian_S_1979/Modelling%20and%20Miniatures/Tzahal/SQUAD.jpg)
ANd, finally, an AMX-13, also a Solido model. Bought all those cheaply from a second-hand model railroad store. Might have to check with them if they got some more.
(http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg236/Christian_S_1979/Modelling%20and%20Miniatures/Tzahal/AMX-13_LIGHT_TANK.jpg)
In my mind, the AMX is not one of the better Solido models (or rather, toys). Chief complaint is, of course, the running gear. Those working track-links, while intriguing in their own right (and I would have LOVED to have such toys as a kid!), add considerably to the "perceived weight" of the vehicle, i.e. it doesn´t really look "light" anymore. The turret is a bit awkward, as well, but the upper hull is rather nicely detailed, and it already got antenna sockets. And, let´s face it, for 5€, more than fair deal.
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Excellent work Chris :)
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I love that put-together-from-the-WWII-scrap-heap look of the Israelis during the Suez conflict.
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Brilliant work on those two, but the halftrack is my favorite by far. They're just so cool looking, especially whey they've got that travel-worn gypsy caravan look to them that you've got there. Great job!
Dammit, now I want to do post-war something. 8)
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This is really cool.
You really got me infected with post-war.
Just think of all the cool pulpy possibilities for that time.
A lot of chaos, Ex-colonies using old WW2 stuff, first use of "modern" weapons (I mean AK 47 an so on), Exil Nazi-Generals operating from South America with Guerilla-Freikorps, Evil organisations making money trying to escalate cold war. ;)
And of course the new Spy range from Artizan/Copplestone. o_o
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This is really cool.
You really got me infected with post-war.
Just think of all the cool pulpy possibilities for that time.
A lot of chaos, Ex-colonies using old WW2 stuff, first use of "modern" weapons (I mean AK 47 an so on), Exil Nazi-Generals operating from South America with Guerilla-Freikorps, Evil organisations making money trying to escalate cold war. ;)
And of course the new Spy range from Artizan/Copplestone. o_o
Within the Arab-Israeli Wars themselves you have all that anyway. German advisors for the Egyptians, Israeli War-criminal hunter teams, British-led Jordanian army, double agents in Damascus, cross-border commando raids, thefts of weapons from British garrisons, tanks built from the scrapyard... and that's all before 1960. :D