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Other Stuff => General Wargames and Hobby Discussion => Topic started by: TheBlackCrane on 20 November 2013, 03:19:03 PM
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Looking at the Pyrrhic War and the upcoming Forged in Battle kickstarter got me thinking that the Republican Roman army must be one of the most versatile there is for wargaming purposes. I'm thinking in terms of the different opponents it can face - Italian city states, Gauls, Iberians, Carthaginians, Greeks of sundry nations/forces, Successors & Eastern realms such as Mithradates and his Pontic chaps...
It's a lot of opponents, and variety amongst the forces those opponents are composed of, that one can use to all intents and purposes the same Roman force against! (Obviously I am discounting the possibility of somebody saying I can't use 'x' unit on the tabletop because it's painted as 'y' legion which never fought in such and such a war... :D )
It got me to wondering, what other wargames armies, from any region, period etc, are as versatile? Any army you particularly like having as it lets you fight lots of different opposition?
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Not to mention you could use it in fantasy games too. Could easily use a Roman army in Kings of War.
Imagine Greeks are pretty versatile too.
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I would say any pesent/leavy based dark ages army would be fairly versatile - most of the forces fairly similar, especially the lower down the cast system one went. By swaping generals (and possibly elite troops) it should be possible to go from Late Roman era Germanic tribesmen through Anglo-saxons, Vikings, Anglo Danes and up to the 1100/1200s 'baron wars' and early crusades.
And again, they could be used for Fantasy or as lost vikings living at the north pole for a Pulp game!
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The two forces I have gotten the most use out of are my medieval peasants which have bulked out a wide variety of historical and fantasy forces and my interwar civilians that have fought invading aliens, monsters, Nazis, revenue agents, and themselves with great frequency.
Both forces follow what lazy dragon said about changing out leaders and a regular unit or two.
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Back from my DBA days, Romans and Hairy Germanic Barbarians - they fought EVERYONE, even each other!
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I expect you'd get quite a bit of mileage out of Napoleonic Frenchmen too.
Maybe also Greek Phalanxes. Could serve in any Peloponnesean Wars, Graeco-Persian wars, or in any of the campaigns of Alexander, so long as you made them a bit generic and added a few more auxiliaries (slingers, cavalry, etc.) for the Alexandrine campaigns.
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Monguls, pretty much any body in the medieval world from the far east, middle east, and northern & central Europe.
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Ancient Greeks, Romans, Dark Age (most around the world), Samurai, Late Medieval, TYW/ECW all allow a lot of morphing.
I'd say the circa 1500 medieval army is the most versatile, as it can be used in ancient and renaissance wargaming and pretty much any country/kingdom etc.
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An Arab army can cover near a millennium of warfare stretching from Iberia (and into France) to Central Asia :)
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while not an entire army per se but gladitors would fill a lot of roles too from fantasy fighters to post-apoc survivors.
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Robed cultists. My cultists have done scifi, pulp, Victorian, superhero, horror, etc. Add on a couple figs, they can fit almost anywhere.
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Normans.
Those babies were making friends all over the place in the 11th and early 12th centuries and can be used for 1st Crusade too.
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Normans.
Those babies were making friends all over the place in the 11th and early 12th centuries and can be used for 1st Crusade too.
And the last one too, although it's just one and not an army, although by extrapolation... ;)
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An Arab army can cover near a millennium of warfare stretching from Iberia (and into France) to Central Asia :)
Yup have to go with that one, next would be a saxon army which could be dragged back and forth from 410 ad to 1066
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Yup have to go with that one, next would be a saxon army which could be dragged back and forth from 410 ad to 1066
I'd be pretty comfortable running the basic foot as part of an Anglo-Norman army, such as for the battle of the Standard :)
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There are a few ARMIES that I would say are a good round bet !
Ancient period I would say a mid/late republic army is good that would cover you from 220BC up to 25BC 200years aint bad for one army to buy and let face it they took Cool Carthaginian's to Sad slaves :D so Rotten Romans are a good shout ..
But on the other hand if you started with a Classical Greek you could Moph it into all types of armies just adding a few units of Pike you can have a Late Macedonian army then you can go on to the Successor Kingdoms ect.......
These 2 are great for new gamers as you will always find a player at a club that can take theses 2 chaps on..
As for medieval period not sure on that but with my Mongols they can cover a large period of time from 1245 AD to 1590's with out adding a single different figure ... don't think you can have many armies that cover that period with the same troop class for such a long time .. I do have a 100 Years War English but you just cant use them for French ect... as the class of troops are all wrong !
So in my eye the nearer you get to day the quicker armies change and so it would be less easier to find a army that covers a large period of time..
near future/modern troops. Can do anything from colonising other worlds to zombies to modern to traveling through worm holes in space and time.
But we are talking about Wargames Armies??
Not 8 figures if that's the case then 8 figures with farming tools will match your modern chaps any day of the week :) they do not have the Boom sticks but hay they cover year dot...... to moon monkeys and worm holes ... ;)
Happy gaming LR
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Good question is implied in these answers.
Are we talking wide range of time or wide range of Genre? By the former I mean Ancients, "Medieval," or "Horse and Musket", or etc., and by the latter I mean Historical, Fantasy, Science Fiction, VSF, etc., so which is it?
There are eras I no longer play or have interest in.
The way this question is being answered implies, also, that a gamer is willing/desirous of playing any era/genre.
Gracias,
Glenn
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The way this question is being answered implies, also, that a gamer is willing/desirous of playing any era/genre.
You make a good point. I have a few napy and pike and shot stuff from perry minis I believe which I got from a friend who got them as a bonus on a big order from somewhere. Since I am the guy who is always coming up with strange plans and crossovers he gave them to me, and tough I have used parts from them I have very little interest in playing straight up historical games. Tough I can come up with a number of uses for them they were never meant for those and thus it begs the question are they really versatile for all the options I can think of.
All that aside, on one side of the spectrum, one genre: lovecraftian horror, cultists could indeed fit into a very broad range of time. You could as easily do ancients mythos as you could do far future and everything in between.
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Good question is implied in these answers.
Are we talking wide range of time or wide range of Genre?
Hmm, when I posed the first question I was thinking in terms of having one army which, within its period, could take on the widest range of opposition, including the variety of troops they might bring - hence my original thought of Republican Romans.
I did think of Napoleonic French, but, although they fought lots of nations, the style was more or less similar, so it was a lot of different nations and uniforms, but relatively symmetrical warfare, compared to say Rep. Romans vs Pyrrhic...
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Ah, [paraphrasing] "against the most foes within the period" makes sense. And by [my paraphrase] "most foes" I guess you mean most 'different' (as in asymmetrical styles of fighting) foes which would be different from most different groups/nations. The Tactica rule set was very strict in proclaiming a limited number of foes that could be faced by another army, but most people lean more towards the DBA rainbow of match-ups than Tactica type of historical only matches for ancients. That whole MEDANC mindset made for varied games with a veneer of history IMO.
That makes sense in a historical sense (Science Fiction, Science Fantasy, and Fantasy armies are usually based on historical tropes or stereotypes of historical armies.)
I suppose one could quibble that "barbarians" (Gauls, Germanic tribes, etc.,) could be classed as "one type" of army but I digress.
Gracias,
Glenn
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I'd taken the question as written, i.e. the army which could be used against a broad range of foes across both time (various period) and space (various theatres of war and/or genre).
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Hmm, when I posed the first question I was thinking in terms of having one army which, within its period, could take on the widest range of opposition, including the variety of troops they might bring - hence my original thought of Republican Romans.
I did think of Napoleonic French, but, although they fought lots of nations, the style was more or less similar, so it was a lot of different nations and uniforms, but relatively symmetrical warfare, compared to say Rep. Romans vs Pyrrhic...
So your POV was historical only?
Nothing wrong with that, I started with historical (board) war games, just clarifying.
Gracias,
Glenn
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Technically yes - although a sci-fi or fantasy army is certainly versatile as one can throw it in against anything of course - I was thinking historical, on the basis of if one owns one army, how many historical opponents and styles of warfare could it come up against.
Not that I have anything against games matching up forces from the same era which never faced each other, or fantasy/crossovers/sci-fi etc or anything like that, just general musing really!
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Tactica type of historical only matches for ancients.
Tactica was horrible! It even forbade historical matchups either due to lack of easy evidence (IIRC the Indians can't have a civil war in Tactica, they must wait for Alex to invade) or because the system couldn't cope with widely varied fighting styles (foot legions vs. horse archers -- never happened according to Tactica).
The (roughly) 100-500BC period around the med is very hard to match in longevity and variance of armies. All the other "contestants" that pop into mind basically come from this period also (they pretty much all fought each other at some point or other, at least in minor battles).
In most other cases, either there weren't a whole lot of different opponents, or the opponents were very similar. E.g. one medieval or dark age army looks pretty much like the next one. Or take the ever popular Early Imperial Romans. By that time they had pretty much eradicated all "civilised" opponents, so it was these hairy barbarians or those hairy barbarians with the occasional spice of Parthians. Actually, one of the most common opponents was other Roman legions in one of the numerous civil wars, but curiously no one seems to want to play those battles...
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Glad I never got into Tactica If that's the case !
Tactica was horrible! It even forbade historical matchups either due to lack of easy evidence (IIRC the Indians can't have a civil war in Tactica, they must wait for Alex to invade) or because the system couldn't cope with widely varied fighting styles (foot legions vs. horse archers -- never happened according to Tactica).
sounds a bloody poor set of rules so you telling me that the romans never fought Skythain Cav ect..! :D :D glad I am playing FOG !
Not sure I would say that one medieval looks pretty much the same maxxon my Hundred Years War English is the complete opposite of my Mongols ! that's why I have them, you have to play SO MUCH OF a DIFFERENT type of game when you play with them !
Are club play Roman civil wars they are Bloody good games East v West Roman empire :)
But you will NOT get me playing with a Rotten roman army . Am happy to give them a good bashing with my Carthaginians though :)
Think you will find that the more you research a period the more in depth the army becomes .
That's why are hobby is so bloody good you never know what you will start gaming next....
Happy gaming LR
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But you will NOT get me playing with a Rotten roman army . Am happy to give them a good bashing with my Carthaginians though :)
Couldn't agree more!
My interest in ancients is motivated purely by the desire to crush Rome! Next year in 10mm, either Philip V's Macedonians or Pyrrhus. After that, Mithradates.
(I suppose I'll have to do a Roman army too, but only to have something to beat) :D
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<snip> Actually, one of the most common opponents was other Roman legions in one of the numerous civil wars, but curiously no one seems to want to play those battles...
I think that is because if the two armies are evenly matched you either have to blame the dice or admit you were "out-generaled." lol :o
Gracias,
Glenn
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Not sure I would say that one medieval looks pretty much the same maxxon my Hundred Years War English is the complete opposite of my Mongols !
Yes, but your medieval French, Burgundians, Germans, Italians, Lancastrians, Yorkists etc. all look pretty much the same if you discount colors and flags.
So the medieval variance is pretty much generic European knights and footsloggers vs. each other and maybe the mongol invasion (keeping things in Western Europe). Whether the mongols are pillaging through Bavaria or Burgundy doesn't make a huge impact.
Admittedly it also depends on what one means by variance. I'm a modeler, so my first interest is in the look: you might mistake a Spartan hoplite army for an Athenian one, but you won't mistake it for a Roman legion -- even unpainted.
Likewise, you could say there is a wide variety of Napoleonic uniforms. And this would be true if you mean color schemes. But that is pretty much all -- they all wear the same funny hats more or less, have the same muskets and backpacks and the cut of the uniforms is pretty much the same.
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Yes, but your medieval French, Burgundians, Germans, Italians, Lancastrians, Yorkists etc. all look pretty much the same if you discount colors and flags.
You could say that with 90% of wargaming , ECW, TYW , SYW, AWI ,Napoleonic's, ACW need I go on :D :D :D
they all look pretty much the same !
I Do think that If you took a greater look at the armies of the time YOU could tell the difference between a french,English scot and German Army.. Its what in the army that you could tell the main difference but even the armour of the time is different !
Happy Gaming LR
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You could say that with 90% of wargaming , ECW, TYW , SYW, AWI ,Napoleonic's, ACW need I go on :D :D :D
they all look pretty much the same !
My point exactly.
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I saw an article, many years ago, where it was sugested that you raise a 'Campaign style' Napoleonic army. That is to say all wearing greatcoats (mix of different browns & greys) with oilskin covers on their shakos (again a mix of colours). No pom poms, turnbacks, jackets etc to colour. each regiment would only need the comand base to be swapped and your French become Austrian (or whatever). The article said that if your 'colours' were in their waterproof coverings you wouldn't even need to do that much. Surely this would give you lots of possible enemies?
You could even split your army & let a visitor take half as say French, while you take the other half as Austrian.
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Good God MAN! ;)
I can think anything worst than a whole army of 400+ figs in great coats how bland is that ! :o might as well just paint them all black and say its a night action !
Mined you some of us like painting and enjoy it we are rare but there is a few of us out here :)
Happy gaming best get back to painting LR
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I like painting. In fact, that's pretty much as far as my armies ever get. Then they have a tendency to be sold before I ever use them so I can start something else. And so it goes.
Mind you, flesh and horses are the bane. One or two horses in 28mm which I can take my time over, fine, but ranks of horses in 15mm...
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I don't mind horses in 15mm done a whole mongol army in 19 days was around 200 figs ,black under cost them and I just CHUCK the browns on them :)
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Vikings. ancient
German paratroopers
Zombies
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victorian british?
Nice one.
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I think a bow-armed (generic) steppe nomadic army will be quite versatile. It can be matched against itself as well as enemies from Central/Eastern Europe, Middle East/Iran to China from 300 B.C. to the late 19th century. It can also be used as auxiliaries serving in most of those opponent armies. You can add in some heavy cavalry, musket units, etc. to tailor it as needed. Of course you will need to be able to overlook certain inaccuracies in dress given the generic nature but en masse who can really tell.
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Prehistoric tribesmen, they cover the longest period up to the pulp era and Sci-Fi/Fantasy.... :P
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victorian british?
Technically yes, but in practice not quite so much because this was also a period of rapid uniform transitions.
E.g. Zulu war British aren't really correct for saving Gordon in Sudan, even though they are separated only by a couple of years.
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Technically yes, but in practice not quite so much because this was also a period of rapid uniform transitions.
E.g. Zulu war British aren't really correct for saving Gordon in Sudan, even though they are separated only by a couple of years.
Of course that is driven partially by scale - uniform variations are more noticeable in larger figures. Although some details on hats or helmets can be noticeable even in 6 or 3 mm sometimes.
Gracias,
Glenn
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E.g. Zulu war British aren't really correct for saving Gordon in Sudan, even though they are separated only by a couple of years.
Nor are Zululand 1879 suitable for Afghanistan 1879, because the former was scarlet and the latter khaki!
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Ww2 infantry in olive drab with generic markings.provided you aren't too fussy you could go from sci fi victorian to ww1 to sci fi with just a change in hardware.
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Of course that is driven partially by scale - uniform variations are more noticeable in larger figures. Although some details on hats or helmets can be noticeable even in 6 or 3 mm sometimes.
The Sudan Expedition to relieve Gordon in Khartoum (1884-5) mostly wore grey or khaki, if I remember correctly, and khaki was used in India even earlier. Scarlet British uniforms were last worn in battle in 1885.
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aint we talking about armies of 200+ figs no just a handful of figures ?
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aint we talking about armies of 200+ figs no just a handful of figures ?
Was not specified, "It got me to wondering, what other wargames armies, from any region, period etc, are as versatile? Any army you particularly like having as it lets you fight lots of different opposition?"
I think of armies as being in the middle 100's to low 1000s myself.
Gracias,
Glenn
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So super generic sci fi marines, such as the mantic corp marines with an enforcer detachment for skirmish games.(technically one army) .Halo,aliens,40k,anything sci fi really.
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lol
Did we just jump the shark?
:o
;)
lol
Gracias,
Glenn
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"There's my Time War Dalek. You don't have a Time Lord? I win."
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lol
Did we just jump the shark?
:o
;)
lol
Gracias,
Glenn
I think we didn't so much jump it as stick a saddle on it,sit on its back and ride off into the sunset, all set the the tune of rhinestone cowboy.