Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => Age of the Big Battalions => Topic started by: Conquistador on 08 December 2013, 02:49:01 PM
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Okay, If there is a game where the players represent army level Commanders (subordinate players could be Corp level commanders logically) and the units on the table would be division level representations at the smallest base then perhaps this mental exercise won't be needed by me.
I am looking to see if there is in existence any website/book/other source where they had a list of the battles between 1789 and 1815 (inclusive) that reflected how many divisions were present on the field. Anyone know of such a source?
Most Napoleonic games in my area historically have had the bases representing battalions or companies so representations of the larger battles are very involved (especially since most Napoleonic wargamers I have played against/with seem to be the "very carefully measure to the fraction of the millimeter to stay out of fire/charge distance" rules lawyering style of player - playing the rules, not the game or even the battle.)
I am less inclined to play that style of game these days and keep wondering how a game where the mechanics of the game would be subsumed into play at a larger level would work out. Whether or not that ever happens, it would be interesting to see what sized forces were on the field for the battles during the French Revolutionary War/Napoleonic Wars era (and not just the traditional France versus <fill in the blank> European power battles, like Egypt and any other group that got involved - say Russia versus Turkey.
I arbitrarily chose divisions because it seems the most constant form of unit representation in the period (many earlier battles lacked "coherent Corps structures" on one or both sides of the field later battles are quite large in the number of battalions present) of level of forces on the field. Many online sources I have seen have numbers of troops or numbers of battalions/squadrons which is useful.
Ideally, some day there will be a game where a player is the Army commander and generally gives "orders" to Corps/Divisions without all the micro-managing of the formations of battalions between Column, Line, and square. In the mean time I am trying to get a basic idea of how many divisions were at various battles during the period without having to read an entire library of books for research to get a feel for the period I left so many years ago because all the rules were boring and there was a significant lack of "fun factor" in the playing of them.
Right now the only rules I have for this period are the Two Hour Wargames set Muskets and Shakos which I prefer because it shares so many mechanics like the other THW rules I own and the Polemos Napoleonic Wars - General De Division and Marechel de L'Empire. I am looking to rebuild my Napoleonic armies in 3 mm or 6 mm but there is nothing table ready at this time so I am still in the planning and "re-researching" stages after many years away.
Gracias,
Glenn
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I Have not played any set of nap rules where you move round whole divisions in one go.IT sounds like you should be looking at board games if you what to move divisions around as a single unit! ?
BUT Age Of Eagle you move brigades around that's the smallest unit on the table (and batteries ) and they are a great set of rule we play them in 10mm .. it looks and feels great when you are moving whole brigades at a time each player will have around 2-3 divisions (around 12 units ) and that's a corp and with each player have a corp you can refight some BIG battles with it !
Most Napoleonic games in my area historically have had the bases representing battalions or companies so representations of the larger battles are very involved (especially since most Napoleonic wargamers I have played against/with seem to be the "very carefully measure to the fraction of the millimeter to stay out of fire/charge distance" rules lawyering style of player - playing the rules, not the game or even the battle.)
surely If you are fighting battles are bn lvl.. then a few mill should not be a problem ??
I Think you need to find some different players if that's the case IT AINT THE RULES you are using its the PEOPLE that you need to CHANGE !
Hope this helps
Happy gaming LR
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I paly Napoleonics in 15mm at mass battle size games. Aiming for Battles like Waterloo, Wagram, Borodino etc in their entirety not just a "bath-tubbed" or "section of a battle" game.
http://wargamestenerife.blogspot.com.es/2013/09/arapiles-peninsular-war-in-15mm.html (http://wargamestenerife.blogspot.com.es/2013/09/arapiles-peninsular-war-in-15mm.html)
Bases are Brigades. We use the 1st ed Volley and Bayonet rules (with some home amendments to add Command & Control aspects). Very simple d6 based system that is perfect for big games as a lot of details (un-necessary at this level of game) are "assumed" to be taking place so not ruled for.
We also use the same rules for 6mm Franco Prussian Wargames (The 1st ed V&B book has period specific expansions included for 7rs War, AWI, Napoleonics, ACW and Franco Prussian Wars). Should I ever venture into AWI or ACW it will be in 6mm with these rules also.
http://wargamestenerife.blogspot.com.es/search/label/Franco-prusiana (http://wargamestenerife.blogspot.com.es/search/label/Franco-prusiana)
Really excellent set of rules for gaming at this level (never saw the need or benefit in changing to the Napoleonic specific 2nd ed).
I do not know any rule sets that are 1 base = 1 division. As for sources of OOBs, I do not know any that are specifically aimed at Division level, but Nafziger and most other sources include Brigade/Division/Corps structures within their lists.
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Just wanted to say, if you haven't found out yourself, that Sam Mustafa's new Blucher rules are perfect for big battle Napoleonics.
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Some interest thinking about Army size battles.
I have played Shako once, the battle was Waterloo and had fun. Written for big battles.
I have some old GDW board games about the 7 Years War that would be great if the counters had figures glued to them.
That is the way I picture large army type games.
I looked at the blog robh posted.
The 15 mm game looked interesting but I don't read Spanish.
If I happen to see just the photos I would take to be a division sized game.
Now on the other hand the Franco Prussian game looks to be more of an army size game.
I really like the look.
I have a friend in Canada that loves small sized figures and plays big battle games.
Will have to get hold of him and see what rules he plays. Knowing him he probably wrote his own.
Just my two cents worth, don't know if what I said is worth a damn. :)
So the quest goes on for the prefect set of rules.
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In answer to your query about a list of battles, Digby Smith's Napoleonic Wars Data Book would give you this:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Greenhill-Napoleonic-Wars-Data-Book/dp/1853672769
It has strengths as well, as the size of a 'division' varied markedly, even in a single campaign as attrition bit.
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The 'big battle' version of Shako (which was in the first edition of the rules, but dropped from the second) had units as divisions, and worked pretty well.
Any set where each brigade is a base would work (Volley & Bayonet, Grand Armee and Blucher, for instance).