Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => Fantasy Adventures => Topic started by: Nord on 16 December 2013, 10:30:45 PM
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Hello guys,
First time post, thought I would dive in with a question that has been asked before, please don't groan. ::)
I have grown tired of the latest WHFB ruleset, the move towards bigger regiments, bigger monsters, bigger magic. Size is not everything! I played back in the days of fourth edition, when regiments were 4 wide and 12 or 16 was considered pretty big. When an army consisted of about 5 or 6 blocks and a couple of characters. It still seemed tactical enough and we had a load of fun. I feel that the current game doesn't do this for me any more so I am looking for an alternative.
I still love the fantasy background. I have several armies - High and Wood Elves, Chaos Warriors and Daemons, Vampire Counts, Dwarfs and Orcs and Goblins (though considering getting rid of the latter). The aesthetic appeal has lessened for me, I have started to collect more "realistic" figures from the LotR range, but after nearly 20 years of WHFB I don't want to give up on the collection. :'( I want a game that will let me play with all my old toys.
So I guess I am looking for a game that is:-
Fantasy - contains magic, artillery, psychology alongside the usual moving, shooting and combat.
Single based or multi - I can easily "multi base" for element based games. Some of my latest painting is element based anyway, so I am ready for both.
Detailed - I don't want a game that says an elf spear is the same as a orc spear is the same as any spear. I want the races to differ, either through stats or game rules that allows for such differences.
Easier rules - having not played WHFB for months then coming back to it, I was amazed at how fiddly the rules are, and how easy it is to forget them. I would prefer more streamlined, more elegant if you like, but still allowing all the racial traits and such like.
Customisable armies - I am quite prepared to sit down with a system and convert all my old armies into the new world. If army lists for chaos warriors, dwarfs and vampires exist, even better, but I don't mind doing this myself. This means the new system must allow for (or simulate) as much as the weird and wacky as the old WHFB does. Stubborn dwarfs, martial elves, scary skeletons, all that kind of thing.
Hardcopy available - this is not a deal breaker, but I prefer paper to screen.
EDIT One other thing that would be a plus - alternating activation, rather than IGOUGO, though I realise this is mostly applicable to skirmish games. Anything that involves both players is best, one thing that has really bugged me recently has been the waiting/spectating when it's my opponent's turn in WHFB. Even something as simple as LotR, where players both move, then both shoot, etc would be preferable. Down time is dull.
That's it I think. Hope you can help.
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Try Kings of War by Mantic. Can't beat the price—it's free to download:
http://www.manticgames.com/games/kings-of-war/downloads.html
It may not be exactly what you're looking for in terms of detail, but I know a lot of people have resuscitated their Fantasy armies using it. And the allies rules are very free, so you could easily use several of your forces allied together in a single game, if you want.
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God of Battles from Wargames Foundry comes highly recommended from me - it has completly reinvigorated my hobby and I've gotten a newfound love of Fantasy Wargaming as well, something that I never cared for until recently!
http://www.wargamesfoundry.com/our-ranges/gob/god-battle/
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"Mayhem" seems to have had a good reception on this forum - by Brent Spivey (VoodooInk on here). I have a copy of his 'Havoc' rules, which have some very nice mechanisms. Mayhem is a big battle variant which, though more 10-15mm, can be used with 28mm. There's a review thread here
http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=53478.0
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ARMIES OF ARCANA.
Period.
When I quitted WHFB like 3 editions ago, I looked for an alternative and after considering some options, I choosed AoA and NEVER looked back.
Does AoA checks ALL of your statements?
Fantasy - contains magic, artillery, psychology alongside the usual moving, shooting and combat.
YES TO ALL, plus changing formations, an interesting morale resolution and much more.
Single based or multi - I can easily "multi base" for element based games. Some of my latest painting is element based anyway, so I am ready for both.
SINGLE BASED. Each model represents a soldier.
Detailed - I don't want a game that says an elf spear is the same as a orc spear is the same as any spear. I want the races to differ, either through stats or game rules that allows for such differences.
A spear IS a spear, but you have javelins, spears, poles, halberds, etc, each with their own rules.
Easier rules - having not played WHFB for months then coming back to it, I was amazed at how fiddly the rules are, and how easy it is to forget them. I would prefer more streamlined, more elegant if you like, but still allowing all the racial traits and such like.
In WHFB you need AT LEAST 3 rolls to kill a single model, maybe 4. In AoA is 1 roll, maybe 2. And that's it. Simple and elegant. And you REALLY don't loose detail in the proccess.
Customisable armies - I am quite prepared to sit down with a system and convert all my old armies into the new world. If army lists for chaos warriors, dwarfs and vampires exist, even better, but I don't mind doing this myself. This means the new system must allow for (or simulate) as much as the weird and wacky as the old WHFB does. Stubborn dwarfs, martial elves, scary skeletons, all that kind of thing.
The rulebook INCLUDES 10+ complete armies, but if that's not enough for you, there's a CREATURE CREATION FORMULA. You can create or adapt ANITHING your heart desires.
Hardcopy available - this is not a deal breaker, but I prefer paper to screen.
http://www.battlezone-miniatures.co.uk/shop/product/839
You didn't mention this, but the MAGIC SYSTEM of AoA is just GREAT. Wizards have to gather magic for several turns if they want to use the really powerful spells, and magic isn't near as umbalancing as in WHFB.
Need more info? You can check here:
http://www.armiesofarcana.com/default.aspx
There is a DOWNLOADS section where you can look at LOTS of armie lists.
I higly recommed this ruleset.
Hope that helps.
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Second Armies of Arcana. Really enjoy it and it has reinvigorated my love of fantasy battles
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Sell them... To me... Cheaply... lol
I'd have to agree with the mantic option. Basically warhammer with different rules.
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Yep, Mantic Kings of War
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Here's something that will not cost you anything: WHFB 4th ed.! :D
Seriously; unless you insist on playing tournaments, why not revert back to the rules set you're comfortable with? My 'group' and I (read: one friend and me ;) ) have basically decided to do the same because we're not thrilled by the new rules either. So we are going with 4th ed. WH40K and 7th ed. WHFB, since we are most familiar with those rules, we have the armies and we have the books...
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Here's something that will not cost you anything: WHFB 4th ed.! :D
Seriously; unless you insist on playing tournaments, why not revert back to the rules set you're comfortable with? My 'group' and I (read: one friend and me ;) ) have basically decided to do the same because we're not thrilled by the new rules either. So we are going with 4th ed. WH40K and 7th ed. WHFB, since we are most familiar with those rules, we have the armies and we have the books...
What he said! :D
Me and some of my mates are going back to 5th Edition in January, as our armies were designeed with it (and 4th ed) and we still want to play...
We don't do tournaments, so it seems ideal really...
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God of Battles from Wargames Foundry comes highly recommended from me - it has completly reinvigorated my hobby and I've gotten a newfound love of Fantasy Wargaming as well, something that I never cared for until recently!
http://www.wargamesfoundry.com/our-ranges/gob/god-battle/
I'd ditto Torben here and add that it ticks all the boxes. Jake Thornton seems to have produced a very good ruleset here. The rules aren't complex, but intuitive and the there is a lot of tactical depth possible. All the army lists are in the book, so a one time investment to boot. See Jake's blog for more details:
http://quirkworthy.com/god-of-battles/ (http://quirkworthy.com/god-of-battles/)
Duncan
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I sold off nearly all my 40K and my Dark Elves army a couple of months ago. I kept the Dwarfs because I liked them, but not sure that I'll play the WHFB rules I have again. I decided that I had enough Historical armies for them to fight. I may sell them next year if I get the urge. I also have two Warmaster armies and BotFA painted up, but as they form a gaming set I'll keep them for now.
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Good stuff so far. I have added something else I thought about - maximising player participation. The long wait during an opponent's turn has been really noticeable recently - maybe it's just my opponent being super slow. So a move away from my turn, you just stand there, your turn, I just stand here, would be a definite plus.
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I would probably have a look at the following, in this order:
Mayhem
God of Battles
Armies of Arcana
I haven't played Kings of War myself, but have read the rules a few times and it feels terribly prescriptive and even less like a tactical game than WHFB. Then again, some people swear by it so it can't be all bad.
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The same question rattled around my head recently. I settled on Mayhem - element based, unit creation, interesting dice mechanics - but I'd let you know what I think better after I have a couple of wee armies and persuade people to tear themselves away from Warhammer 1.88K. (AKA Malifaux) ;D
I haven't played Kings of War myself, but have read the rules a few times and it feels terribly prescriptive and even less like a tactical game than WHFB. Then again, some people swear by it so it can't be all bad.
I heard a couple of things about KoW that made me veer away from it as my primary choice, although I haven't written it off yet. You wouldn't care to elaborate on your own misgivings...?
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Good stuff so far. I have added something else I thought about - maximising player participation. The long wait during an opponent's turn has been really noticeable recently - maybe it's just my opponent being super slow. So a move away from my turn, you just stand there, your turn, I just stand here, would be a definite plus.
A mechanic I really liked in the old Chronopia rules was that the players took it in turn to activate one unit or leader at a time (highest dice roll going first). If one player had more units they all activated at the end of the turn.
I've used this mechanic in other rules that I helped cobble together (Border Reivers skirmish, Tudor Irish Wars big battle and Late Roman big battle games) and I like it, it means both players are active through out the turn. You could try importing this into whatever rules you end up using.
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A mechanic I really liked in the old Chronopia rules was that the players took it in turn to activate one unit or leader at a time (highest dice roll going first). If one player had more units they all activated at the end of the turn.
I've used this mechanic in other rules that I helped cobble together (Border Reivers skirmish, Tudor Irish Wars big battle and Late Roman big battle games) and I like it, it means both players are active through out the turn. You could try importing this into whatever rules you end up using.
Also Graham remember we used a variant for our big LOTR campaign and it worked a treat :)
(Karl)
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I'll put in another vote for Armies of Arcanna. It was written by a guy who was himself unsatisfied with Warhammer. It keeps some of the better aspects of WFB and adds many more new elements.
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What he said! :D
Me and some of my mates are going back to 5th Edition in January, as our armies were designeed with it (and 4th ed) and we still want to play...
We don't do tournaments, so it seems ideal really...
I left Warhammer a few years ago. The only thing I miss is 5th edition! Small units, small armies, big game.
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Thanks for the replies, it's given me plenty to think about. I will try to find reviews and battle reports on the web, looking at Mayhem, Armies of Arcana and Gods of Battle to begin with, since these sound nearest to what I want.
I must admit I was half expecting a suggestion of Hail Caesar with fantasy mod, anybody tried this?
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I have decided to return to Fantasy (and maybe eventually historical) war gaming but I am going the "... set your plan, let it go, keep a reserve, and play it out" route with Rally Round the King by Two Hour War Games.
Garcias,
Glenn
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Can I suggest that you simply step back in WFB history to when the game was actually fun and narrative in nature...I'm a die hard Warhammer 3rd edition fan....the game had many more interesting complexities and fun elements that were removed from the 4th ed onward when game play was streamlined and sped up to accommodate the tournament based mentality that now dominates the WFB world. Just because there is a new rule set doesn't mean YOU have to use it. I played 4th ed when it came out and hated every game of it. So I've gone back to the game I love and recruited a new set of gamers that feel the same way and we are having fun doing it. Isn't that what its all about?
Just my two cents... :D
Cheers,
Blue
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I'll put in another vote for Armies of Arcanna. It was written by a guy who was himself unsatisfied with Warhammer. It keeps some of the better aspects of WFB and adds many more new elements.
Me too. I have been amazed to see how people who actually hate WHFB and saw anything fantasy-related with contempt enlarged their dusty armies after playing a pair of games.
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I saw the resurgence of interest in the third edition of WHFB and was intrigued enough to hunt down a copy on ebay. It's a lovely old book, full of really nice retro art and, if you like the clumpy old metals, load of mini porn. But the rules. :o Quite possibly the worst rule set I have ever read. Movement is mind numbingly clunky, three different stats for leadership is completely un-necessary, spells that can kill outright (with no dispels either). Nope, not for me I'm afraid, I think you need a pair of rose-tinted specs for that ruleset.
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I saw the resurgence of interest in the third edition of WHFB and was intrigued enough to hunt down a copy on ebay. It's a lovely old book, full of really nice retro art and, if you like the clumpy old metals, load of mini porn. But the rules. :o Quite possibly the worst rule set I have ever read. Movement is mind numbingly clunky, three different stats for leadership is completely un-necessary, spells that can kill outright (with no dispels either). Nope, not for me I'm afraid, I think you need a pair of rose-tinted specs for that ruleset.
I got all excited for WHFB 3rd as well, what with the Oldhammer resurgence, but upon acquiring the book I have to agree with you; the rules are horrible!
Another vote here for Armies of Arcana, though I must confess I've yet to play it. I have the book and can already tell it does everything that was good about Warhammer, but better.
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Warhammer 3rd edition and its various add-ons on are great fun to read. I enjoy dipping into them and styling my chaos collection after them.
However, a fantasy battle game is not just a fantasy game it is also a battle. Creating the right atmosphere and narrative is good, but the whole thing of deploying armies and moving them about suggests some sort of competition or battle of wits between generals. A game mechanics which goes to pot as soon as both parties try their best to win is missing an important ingredient as far as I asm concerned.
I have not any experience of these other rulesets mentioned, but if they allow for a competitive game that isnt all about cheap tricks or absurd rules anomalies then I would be interested.
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I'm a big fan of playing 3rd ed WhFB and after a few play though and getting used to a GM again I happen to think its amazing.
I have a 2 part battle report here:
http://oldhammeronabudget.blogspot.co.uk/2013/09/glogg-battle-treachery-at-legbreaker.html
and
http://oldhammeronabudget.blogspot.co.uk/2013/09/the-disturbed-slumber-part-2.html
We even went and done army fluff and background:
http://oldhammeronabudget.blogspot.co.uk/2013/09/the-ropsmenn-vs-kanboks-kingdom.html
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JUST PLAY THE old RULES 1,2,3,4 ETC wHY CHANGE!!!!
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and getting used to a GM again
I don't think I could do that!
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As others have mentioned kings of war might be a decent ruleset to use your models with.
Here is a demo game.
http://www.beastsofwar.com/kings-of-war/kings-war-week-demo-game-part-1/
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Hi Nord,
If nobody minds me tooting my own horn so to speak, I believe a game of my own creation fits what you're looking for.
Realm - Fantasy Warfare (http://Realm - Fantasy Warfare)
Modern mechanics, interactive turn sequence (no downtime!), customizable and loads of fun (in my more than biased opinion).
Any questions feel free to ask away, otherwise good luck with the search.
Scott.
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I vote, 3rd wfb, kings of war or Armies of arcana
Plus lots of skirmish games out there
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Just had a look at armies of arcana. I think I've been convinced to sell up my eighth edition whfb books, rules and two army books, and spend the cash on armies of arcana with a bunch of cash leftover to buy some of those grenadier barbarians I have wanted for such a long time.
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Also, not meaning to hijack the thread but are there any good fantasy skirmish games people know of? I think mantic might have one in the pipeline but I'd like to hear about more myself.
Thanks
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Maybe start a new thread with the skirmish question? I think it's worth a separate, more complete discussion.
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Will do.
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Since nobody else brought this up: I used to play Chipco's Fantasy Rules!
The reason I haven't been playing them lately is mostly that I haven't been playing any fantasy mass battle rules. To be frank, the rules are pretty much dead in water, but I think they are still available as PDF.
I like them, but they are rather abstract mass battle rules - so probably not what you are looking for if you want more of a skirmish game.
Another thing about the Chipco rules is that they are not tied to any specific background. So you can use them to play LotR or Barsoom or whatever you like... no %#"#"¤&#"¤&% named heroes in sight. The rules owe a lot to DBM/HotT, except without the Barkerese.
If you don't like DBM, approach with caution. Though I hate DBM and I still love FR!...
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Just had a look at armies of arcana. I think I've been convinced to sell up my eighth edition whfb books, rules and two army books, and spend the cash on armies of arcana with a bunch of cash leftover to buy some of those grenadier barbarians I have wanted for such a long time.
Welcome to the Arcanian Brotherhood then! Hope you find it as rewarding as most of us do. I now there is people who have used it to play historical battles, and i have even pushed the limits of the rules and used them for the XIXth century and for playing one of those odd battles in a feudal world of the WH40k universe. You can check them here http://huestesdearcana.blogspot.com.es/2013/04/arcanian-bakumatsu.html (http://huestesdearcana.blogspot.com.es/2013/04/arcanian-bakumatsu.html) and http://huestesdearcana.blogspot.com.es/2011/12/batalla-de-revodan-battle-for-revodan-i.html (http://huestesdearcana.blogspot.com.es/2011/12/batalla-de-revodan-battle-for-revodan-i.html) if you like
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bit late but another vote for AoA though again I only managed a read through of the rules rather than a play through. I then gave my rules away to someone who actually had opponents willing to try it out. however I have since moved clubs so sm looking st getting a new copy at some point.
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Welcome to the Arcanian Brotherhood then! Hope you find it as rewarding as most of us do. I now there is people who have used it to play historical battles, and i have even pushed the limits of the rules and used them for the XIXth century and for playing one of those odd battles in a feudal world of the WH40k universe. You can check them here http://huestesdearcana.blogspot.com.es/2013/04/arcanian-bakumatsu.html (http://huestesdearcana.blogspot.com.es/2013/04/arcanian-bakumatsu.html) and http://huestesdearcana.blogspot.com.es/2011/12/batalla-de-revodan-battle-for-revodan-i.html (http://huestesdearcana.blogspot.com.es/2011/12/batalla-de-revodan-battle-for-revodan-i.html) if you like
I'll be keeping my old army books, warhammer undead and orcs and goblins can't remember which edition they were, only the one leadership characteristic. I thought it was a real shame when they split the undead in two. I liked the idea of being able to use any undead minis or having your own styled army, much the same as chaos splitting into three armies. Probably should have posted this on the GW stickied board.
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I have spent a little time researching the recommendations. I think the best fit for me will be either Armies of Arcana or Mayhem. AofA sounds like a streamlined, modernised, customisable version of WHFB, which will suit me down to the ground. Why not just go back to previous versions of WHFB? The fluff and background of WHFB is what drew me in originally, the rules have never been that smooth or easy and I like alternating activations now that I have tired it. The old IGOUGO just doesn't cut it for me any more.
Mayhem gives me a chance to try out element based games, again with all the tools in the book to include/adpt my existing armies. I am hoping this will lend itself to bigger, grand scale battles, whereas I am hoping that AofA will fill the role of smaller battles with a little more detail in the characters and monsters.
God of Battles I also looked at, but was put off by the prescriptive nature of the rules. You buy units by size, 6, 8 or 12 or whatever. I like to be able to decide these things for myself. I am also not a massive fan of the Foundry aesthetic so that didn't help either. I didn't really fancy spending £30 on a massive book full of minis I don't like! There was also no mention of conversion/customisation, so I will pass on that.
I will still check out the other recommendations, but for now my short term aim is to get a copy of Armies of Arcana and Mayhem and move on from there.
Cheers for all the advice, when I have got a few games under my belt I will report back on the new systems. 8)
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I came to this thread late, but my vote would also be for Armies of Arcana. I got very jaded with WHFB even after only a few goes with it. Then I saw an AoA game at Salute, got the rules and never looked back. The creature creation formula enables you to tailor your figures, and I have played massed battles and large skirmishes using my Lord of the Rings themed armies equally successfully. I prefer the simpler, more elegant system but you still get that frisson of excitement when you roll loads of bones.
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Mayhem gives me a chance to try out element based games, again with all the tools in the book to include/adpt my existing armies. I am hoping this will lend itself to bigger, grand scale battles, whereas I am hoping that AofA will fill the role of smaller battles with a little more detail in the characters and monsters.
If you have any MAYHEM questions, then don't hesitate to as- especially if it's about building and converting units! That's always good fun. :)
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If you have any MAYHEM questions, then don't hesitate to as- especially if it's about building and converting units! That's always good fun. :)
Thanks, I will then. :)
As I said in my first post, I am trying to breathe new life into my WHFB collection. I want to play using my existing setup as much as possible, so ideally I would like to use regiments in their current configurations. Missile troops tend to wide frontage, narrow depth, as do elite warriors, whereas more basic troops tend to be deeper ranked. In other words, various sizes of rectangles, not many squares. Is this a problem with Mayhem, I think I read that it recommends units are squares for ease of play?
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Thanks, I will then. :) Is this a problem with Mayhem, I think I read that it recommends units are squares for ease of play?
While squares are recommended, you won't have a problem using troops based as you've described. Squares just make all unit interactions much clearer and cleaner. If you are used to playing with bases of varying sizes, then the little oddities associated with different base depths and widths will be nothing new.
If your current armies aren't element based and use traditional movement trays, then you can always make some new trays after a couple of games if you think that you will prefer it. ;)
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So after the drubbing you guys gave my suggestion of going back to WFB 3rd edition... :'( I decided to look into armies of arcana myself...but the US distributor (lone gunman games) is out of stock...sigh...
...anyone know where I can get a copy? I wish there was a PDF option...
Cheers,
Blue