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Other Stuff => General Wargames and Hobby Discussion => Topic started by: ErikB on January 17, 2014, 07:26:40 PM
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Servus, Guten Tag, Gruess euch!
Could someone help me understand, in terms of wargaming minis, what Germany and Germans looked like from ancient times through Napoleonic times?
Please correct me if I am wrong here.
Ancient: German tribesmen, per Warlord Games' Germans, part naked, wore pants and sometimes shirts with those stripes and plaid patterns.
Dark Ages: German tribes, like Goths (south) and Anglo-Saxons (north), took over the Late Roman technology and appearance, like Musketeer Miniatures' line of Goths and Late Roman.
Middle Ages: Crusade knights, knights like War of the Roses in England, then, later, Landsknecht in appearance.
Pre-Napoleon: Landsknechts still, more guns and artillery, until armies started wearing uniforms and carrying muskets.
Does this sound right? Just in very, very general terms.
There is so much information about the different stages of English evolution but my ancestry comes from Germany/Lithuania and that is more interesting to me.
Vielen Dank!
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<iframe width="420" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/cL6g1h2VZEg" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
:)
In truth I think there are a lot more variations and changes within your main groups think Barbarossa for one, Frederick the great to name 2
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Very basically you are right.
Ancient Germanic tribes did not wear a lot of armor in battle. I'm not sure about the plaid on trousers. As far as I know those were more common in Gaul and the Gallic tribes.
Early Middle Ages seem about right to me. Depending on the were and when they would probably be influenced by late Roman armor, though the wepaons were fairly distinct Germanic (longswords etc). Some minor tribes might be more simply dressed.
High Middle Ages is again another matter. You have the knights and nobles in their chain armor and the majority of troops more or less untrained peasants.
The late Mddle Ages saw the Landsknecht armies appearing while the nobles wore These ridiculous heavy plate armours.
I'm not really sure when uniforms were finally introduced but keep in mind that the Holy Roman Empire as it was called was a highly divided Empire that had more than 300 (!) sperate states or political entities after 1648. So uniforms would be rather varied since there never officially was a "German army" until 1871 (and even then some states within Germany had officially there own army such as Bavaria and Saxony).
During WW I. the army was slowly given a uniform look but I guess it wasn't until after 1918 that you could no longer differentiate what part of Germany soldiers came from.
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Great, thanks for the responses!
What lines of minis would suffice for Lithuania and Wien during the Dark Ages? Let's say, 500-1100 AD.
Saxons, Gripping Beast Jomsvikings and Pagan Rus for Lithuania?
And Goths for Vienna and Slovakia?
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here we are, the illustrated history of Germany in a handful of posts lol lol lol (no offence to the posters actually, I am simply amused at the idea of the approach ;))
if You need a nice intro, there are some books of the kind: "famous battles through the ages" or so, where authors try to illustrate a bit. Did BBC or history channel not produce some documentary on that topic? I know a polish movie "the crusaders" after a book by Sinkiewitz, but it's about a different period.
Otherwise nothing will actually spare You reading a bit deeper into the matter.
If it is only about wargaming, then You could simply follow the miniature ranges and the galleries of painted miniatures available on the net, this is just as good as anything
btw, it would appear to me that it is the history of northern/central Europe You are loking after, not Germany. I am pretty sure there are quite some movies made in the countries who struggle for a national identity since the fall of the iron curtain. A bit of searching on Youtube could be interesting.
You will find out that between the migration period and the livonic crusade, the part of Europe You are hinting at was pretty much in a slavic zone of political influence. So, apart from the norse expansion (mainly trade centered in that area), not much "germanic" around... Here is a map that I personally find quite interesting
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/bb/West_slavs_9th-10th_c..png/726px-West_slavs_9th-10th_c..png)
just to point out how debated research on that topic is....
and constantly trying to avoid the pitfalls of either pan-germanic pretension or pan-slavic identity in order to be taken seriously....
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At what point in German history did the mullet become a popular hairstyle? Is this a relatively modern phenomenon or does it trace its history deep into Teutonic history. Every time I see one in Brazil its owner is invariably a German tourist. Inquiring minds must know. :)
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Now that's a cool map ypou have there. In fact the border between Germanic and Slav People ran right through the middle of the area I ive in. Even today after over 1000 years you can tell by the names of villages and towns who originally lived there.
Remember that a national identity as we know today is a fairly modern invention of the 17th century and even much later when you think of national/patriotic feeling of the broad masses and the politicians.
Germany as she looks today was very slowly built during the last 1000 years. Historically we have a west to east flowing cultural advancement and during the High Middle-Ages a development we in Germany call "eastern colonization" in the time between 900 and 1200 with the Holy Roman Empire slowly integrating the west slavic tribes into her territory (oh well, maybe I should just say by conquering those lands).
Poland was a already an established Christian kingdom at the time the two countries became direct neighbours which lead to both acceptance of and frictions with each other.
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At what point in German history did the mullet become a popular hairstyle?
lol lol lol
Herr Cutt is to blame!! I like the kid's haircuts best - mullet thing on top and a single long braid at the back. It must harken back to the days of Armenius.
(Disclaimer: No offence meant whatsoever to my German comrades)
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At what point in German history did the mullet become a popular hairstyle? Is this a relatively modern phenomenon or does it trace its history deep into Teutonic history. Every time I see one in Brazil its owner is invariably a German tourist. Inquiring minds must know. :)
As far as I know long hair has always been the sign of the free man. There was supposed to be magical power in hair. Remember this old fairy tale of the princess in her tower letting down her hair so the Knight could climb up? No idea what it is called in English, in German we call it "Rapunzel". Anyway, that is a sign of those old believes.
I read somewhere that Heinrich Himmler was very upset when HJ members tried to grow Long hair to Show their Germanic heritage and that he published a Statement in which he denounced that hairstyle saying something along the lines of "we are not Germanic tribesmen but nationalsocialist Germans. We wear our hair in a disciplined short style."
The hair of the last Merowingian king was cut off when the Carolingians pushed him from the throne in the 7th/8th centuryin order to show that he not only lost political power but the grace of the gods (well, at that time God) as well.
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It's Rapunzel in English too.
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In returning to the topic - I intentionally avoided to imply any kind of national concept of "german".
I would assume that an approach along the lines of language and religion can be regarded as acceptable when it comes to some kind of "identity" for the period the OP asked about.
two points are notable - the germanic expansion (speakers of germanic languages), started during the migration period and finished with the norman conquest (although by that time the lingua franca had been adopted) features a lot of contact activity, from trade and raids to conquest and occupation. It is interesting to notice that the Wikings and saxons occupied countries as far as Ireland, but not the slavic speaking neighbourhood - they only established trading settlements - I wonder why, not that the weather is better in Dublin than in Krakow....
Plus, the region in question was the last one in Europe to be submitted to Christianity - many crusades with considerable effort involved were entertained to god knows where before the german empire thought about attempting to do this with the baltic countries....
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Very basically you are right.
Ancient Germanic tribes did not wear a lot of armor in battle. I'm not sure about the plaid on trousers. As far as I know those were more common in Gaul and the Gallic tribes.
Early Middle Ages seem about right to me. Depending on the were and when they would probably be influenced by late Roman armor, though the wepaons were fairly distinct Germanic (longswords etc). Some minor tribes might be more simply dressed.
High Middle Ages is again another matter. You have the knights and nobles in their chain armor and the majority of troops more or less untrained peasants.
The late Mddle Ages saw the Landsknecht armies appearing while the nobles wore These ridiculous heavy plate armours.
I'm not really sure when uniforms were finally introduced but keep in mind that the Holy Roman Empire as it was called was a highly divided Empire that had more than 300 (!) sperate states or political entities after 1648. So uniforms would be rather varied since there never officially was a "German army" until 1871 (and even then some states within Germany had officially there own army such as Bavaria and Saxony).
During WW I. the army was slowly given a uniform look but I guess it wasn't until after 1918 that you could no longer differentiate what part of Germany soldiers came from.
Of course the true mulllet is neither fish nor fowl nor good red meat. Short at the sides, long down the back, blunt, bowl-cut fringe optional. It seems to belong neither to the adherents of a failed chicken farmer's strictures on male coiffure or to the prototypical freeman. Germans do seem to be both the most fervent adherents to the style as well as the most fundamentalist in terms of preserving the classic mullet. Was the Dukes of Hazard popular in Germany or can we ascribe the phenomenon to Billy Bob Cyrus of Miley and Achy-Breaky fame?
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Germans do seem to be both the most fervent adherents to the style as well as the most fundamentalist in terms of preserving the classic mullet.
however, the question arises: is the mullet represented in miniature sculpting in the authentic way it should be?
because otherwise, how is one to represent a germani army? mabe someone should start a mullet sculpting competiton....
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Wargaming/modelling context. In a demonstrably plausible way. ASAP. >:D
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Wargaming/modelling context. In a demonstrably plausible way. ASAP. >:D
Now try to find an Opel Manta B suitable for 28mm before somebody starts sculpting a male figure sporting mullet, moustache, cowboy boots, tank top and carrot shaped jeans - or even worse: females sporting mullets, denim jackets and spandex leggings...
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Excellent suggestions for the Prof's range of Post Apocalyptic survivors. :) I'd buy some.
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however, the question arises: is the mullet represented in miniature sculpting in the authentic way it should be?
because otherwise, how is one to represent a germani army? mabe someone should start a mullet sculpting competiton....
Well, the mullet has gone out of fashion in Germany. I can't say I have seen anyone wearing hair that way lately.
So in order to appease our cruel masters of the forum I'd say the mullet is a cultural phenomenon of the 80's and maybe early 90's so they should really only be sculptured to represent civilians from that time. But since the 80's sucked anyway who would want to have models like that?
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seriously? ;)
(http://www.hfminis.co.uk/img_cms/product_images/SMH007%20Hawk%20web.jpg)
if this is not iconic 80ies then I don't know what is...
(http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11113/111130081/3416511-3919600615-snake.jpg)
http://www.studiominiatures.com/shop/survivors.html
over the top OT, I know, sorry
but every second bloody blockbuster movie they are torturing us with nowadays is over and over recycled 80ies material...
Star Wars, Alien, Terminator, You name it....
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ok, you beat me...
Somehow when I think of the 80's I just see the terrible pop music world in my mind's eye.
That model, however, is really cool. What company is it?
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Somehow when I think of the 80's I just see the terrible pop music world in my mind's eye.
this is why You have a picture of Leslie Mandoky from Dschinghis Khan as Your Avatar then? lol lol
That model, however, is really cool. What company is it?
follow the yello brick road
äh... link under the snake
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While the bad-hair theme is pretty funny, can we return to a discussion of wargame minis and what would represent the various cultures during different ages, especially around Vienna and Vilna?
Danke, Burschen.
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this is why You have a picture of Leslie Mandoky from Dschinghis Khan as Your Avatar then? lol lol
follow the yello brick road
äh... link under the snake
I actually thought of Dschinghis Khan when he mentioned terrible 80's pop music... without even realizing his avatar was exactly that! ;D
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seriously? ;)
(http://www.hfminis.co.uk/img_cms/product_images/SMH007%20Hawk%20web.jpg)
if this is not iconic 80ies then I don't know what is...
(http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11113/111130081/3416511-3919600615-snake.jpg)
http://www.studiominiatures.com/shop/survivors.html
over the top OT, I know, sorry
but every second bloody blockbuster movie they are torturing us with nowadays is over and over recycled 80ies material...
Star Wars, Alien, Terminator, You name it....
That's not a true mullet. *This* is a mullet...
(http://filmjunk.com/images/weblog/eastboundpremiere.jpg)
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Danke, Burschen.
this address is even more outdated than mullets....
Anyway, @EricB, in terms of miniatures I would rather look in the direction Novgorod with a bit scandinavian influence, and alright, Gepids closer to Vienna, if any kind of difference is to be spotted in the material culture at all. from my brief memory of respective courses, the "identity" thing during the migration period runs along differences in the jewelry - in terms of weapons it is spatha and sax all along, with reflex bows where they prefer a horse under their bottoms and some axe variation here and there; later on, You would have to research the influence of the High Medieval european culture creeping eastwards (with the Danube waterway clearly favoured - oh damn, I forgot the Hungarian Kingdom) and also the Mongol invasion from the east.
It would be interesting to know why You want to span from Vilnius to Vienna, with all the mountains inbetween that are a clear cultural divide. Anyway, during the period You asked about, not a lot of german anything around there apart from the later slice (Livonian Crusade). I recommend a map of the languages spoken in Europe after WW1 in order to visualise the problem of "nations", especially in that area.
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Thanks, former user.
Vilnus - Mom's side of the family (and, at times, Parts of Poland).
Vienna - Dad's side of the family (a few from somewhere in Brandenburg, but I can research that myself).
The two sides didn't meet until being in the USA for a few generations. Funny, they don't speak German anymore but I studied abroad a few times and picked it up. They hate that I speak Bavarian/Salzburgisch most of the time instead of Hochdeutsch. Go figure. ;)
Thanks for introducing me to the Gepids. I had never heard of them.
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Gepids - cousin branch of Goths, allied to huns
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gepids
Austro-Hungaria was a melting pot at the time of emigration to US, the mix with Brandenburg is funny... So Your Father's side could be anything.
I imagine the Lithuanian side must have emigrated late 19th C with the others, by which time the baltic states had undergone a wave of russification and prussification, what You want. If Your mother's family is german, then they would have been in the upper echelon of society. However, even if they were german rooted and autochthon by the 19th C, where the families originally came from 1000 years earlier would have been somewhere else. Try some genetic haplotype testing ;)
or go Crusader - either an austrian knight participating in the Livonian Crusade or the other way round a meeting in palestine during a german crusade - this would be the medieval melting pot
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The Lithuanian side were not especially rich. My great-grandmother was something of a school-skipping delinquent and came to the US after the mayor of Vilnius paid some cossacks to kill certain communities in a big massacre. Apparently, most of the 18 kids in her family were run down in the city center, killed with everyone else. Her brother who survived was serving in the Princess Olga regiment in Moscow. She was too irresponsible to show up for the protest or town meeting or whatever the gathering was so she lived. Go figure.
My great-great grandparents sent her to the US immediately. This was ca. 1895-1905.
Dad's side, Grandpa's parents from Koebelenz and Vienna came to the US around 1903, Grandma's from Brandenburg, came to the US some time in the 1860s-1880s.
All German speakers though nobody got along. Something about class divisions that no longer matter in the US, how thin to cut an onion to put on a cracker with caviar... stuff that *really* does not matter to Americans.
Anyway, I was trying to get a sense of what was going on in the various regions between Rome and Muskets. I paint a lot of minis but I do it for fun and historical research as opposed to war games.
Thanks for the information, folks! Uand jo, freilich, i red Bayrisch zua Zeit, moine liebe Burschen!
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oh, now I understand, these were the hardest of times when the Romanovs tried to claw to their throne..
but Brandenburg, Koblenz and Wien is really a strange combination, and no reason for bavarian accent at all o_o
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Ich bin Werkstudent in Muenchen und Austauschstudent in Salzburg gewesen.
Originally, I applied to study in Berlin, but there weren't enough qualified applicants so they sent me (and the only two others who qualified) to the other program in Salzburg. I worked in a bar so I got really good at speaking and understanding a special drunken southern dialect. ;)
So strange, when I returned to the USA, I needed a weekend job while I returned to university, so I worked as a Tuersteher next door to a German restaurant in Palo Alto (1 km from Stanford Uni). First night I had to deal with three big, very drunk Bavarian guys. Their N. German colleagues could not understand them once they were drunk.
It just so happened that I spoke pretty good Drunken Bavarian... I got the job. :D
As for German/Austrian/Swiss melting pot... the regionalism of Germany and Europe no longer matters here in the US. Most people just think, "yeah, I'm kind of German, I think...." Suddenly, Brandenburg, Bavaria, and Vienna all become intimate neighbors.
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*cough cough* gaming/modelling angle, please *cough cough* ;) lol
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as if @Chris was intentionally doing a german impression...... lol lol
let's see, so now we know that @EricB (obviously "the Bavarian" ;)) somehow tries to retrostyle his constructed 8) german identity into wargaming. So now we know why, tell us how
because there is no Türsteher in medieval Europe, or Dark Ages Europe (probably?)
and any way, he would have to be slavic then...
does anyone make Russian medieval miniatures? I used to have sets of flat plastic 54 mm medieval russian warrious - they were awesome
and try to watch this polish "Crusaders" movie
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Alright, it sounds like Jomsvikings and Pagan Rus from Gripping Beast for the North and Late-Roman/Byzantine/Arthurians and Gothics from Musketeer Miniatures for the South.
Slightly different periods, I know, but this makes sense.
Then, for later, Polish/Lithuanians and Teutonic Knights as well as generic 1200-1400 Crusaders in their chain and tabards moving into the Perry War of the Roses minis. Though, Germans used different longswords and Grosses/Kriegs/Langes Messer and the fencing methods seemed to be unique to Germany and some of the Slavic schools (I actually train in this longsword and Dussak fencing).
Then the Landsknecht-look later on.
Thanks, folks.
Now, to find some good Tracht-wearing minis, both male and female... yes, I got the Oktoberfest girl from Reaper. My 6 year old daughter insists that I paint it like her... ;)
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Now, to find some good Tracht-wearing minis, both male and female... yes, I got the Oktoberfest girl from Reaper. My 6 year old daughter insists that I paint it like her... ;)
You´ll get hard times to find some, please let us know if you actually do. However the Reaper Oktoberfestdirndl is nice! :D
(http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll111/wamasaka/Rome/MiniaturenfotosOriginale852-1.jpg)
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You are an incorrigible old lecher, Michi. : lol
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You´ll get hard times to find some, please let us know if you actually do. However the Reaper Oktoberfestdirndl is nice! :D
(http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll111/wamasaka/Rome/MiniaturenfotosOriginale852-1.jpg)
Koa Hiatamadl mog I nit, hot koane dicke Wadln nit, I mog a Madl aus der Stodt, wos dicke Wadln hoat....
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Koa Hiatamadl mog I nit, hot koane dicke Wadln nit, I mog a Madl aus der Stodt, wos dicke Wadln hoat....
Hob di! :D
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You are an incorrigible old lecher, Michi. : lol
It is, nevertheless, actual wargaming (or at least figure-painting) content in a thread that's been requested to provide some, so what's yer trouble? ;)
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It is, nevertheless, actual wargaming (or at least figure-painting) content in a thread that's been requested to provide some, so what's yer trouble? ;)
I am just taking the Mickey out of Michi... :)
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I am just taking the Mickey out of Michi... :)
Meh...
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_IEn2IlqGOG0/S1yT3Uxc7pI/AAAAAAAAChg/B3aqJOTqPRs/s1600/Miniaturenfotos,+Originale+781.jpg)
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She has a sister?!?!?!?!? Saugeil!