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Miniatures Adventure => VSF Adventures => In Her Majesty's Name => Topic started by: oabee on 01 February 2014, 08:42:02 PM

Title: New Company: Schutztruppe Erkundigungskommando
Post by: oabee on 01 February 2014, 08:42:02 PM: Well, here's another one that I came up with, complete with suggestions for miniatures. Not sure where I got the inspiration for this, except that I had purchased Dark Sword's Desert Wings and wanted to work her in somewhere. Still another tentacle for the Society of Thule as it seeks to seize control of the world. [cue the manic laughter]

PDF here:

http://wrgmr.com/pdfs/schutztruppe.pdf

EDIT: because of discussion about my use of the term Erkundigungskommando for the unit name of the Company, I am including a PDF with the Company renamed Erkundungskommando, which is more accurate. There was mixed opinion about which term was best, given the time period involved, so in the best spirit of IHMN I am letting you be the judge and choose the one you prefer. For the discussion of the correct translation of Reconnaissance Patrol in German, be sure to read the entire thread! Erkundungskommando is here:
http://wrgmr.com/pdfs/schutztruppe2.pdf

(http://wrgmr.com/images/schutz1.jpg)

(http://wrgmr.com/images/schutz2.jpg)

(http://wrgmr.com/images/schutz3.jpg)

Enjoy!

Mike O

PS: My personal favorite minis are the Askaris: I have a pack of their infantry, and they are very nice. [I actually ordered them on New Year's Day, and received them on the 4th: great service here in the States.] Their rifles are in scale, and don't look like bazookas, as many other lines of miniatures do. They will form the basis of my Company. I plan to purchase the Mountain Gun and crew, and get a Maxim MG from Pulp Minis (or somewhere), using the Askari Mountain Gun crew for either one. No plans at the present for mounted troops.

PSS: By the way, Gen. Lothar von Trotha was real, and did commit atrocities against African natives. In 2006, Munich changed the name of von Trotha Strasse to Herero Strasse to honor the victims of that tribe, more than 80% of which died due to his actions. Ernst von Trotha is fictional: the General was married, but I do not know if he had any children.
Title: Re: New Company: Schutztruppe Erkundigungskommando
Post by: Craig on 02 February 2014, 06:26:30 PM: I really love the research and the detail you put into your companies Mike. Another superb effort!

PS: make sure Curufea gets a copy for the compilation.
Title: Re: New Company: Schutztruppe Erkundigungskommando
Post by: Bullshott on 02 February 2014, 07:16:47 PM: An excellent list for a nicely balanced company.

I have enough figures to make up this company ...
Title: Re: New Company: Schutztruppe Erkundigungskommando
Post by: Eisenfaust on 03 February 2014, 02:32:44 AM: Not only do I look forward to using these excellent companies you've designed, but I always learn so much from your write-ups. Thank you!
Title: Re: New Company: Schutztruppe Erkundigungskommando
Post by: Curufea on 03 February 2014, 03:08:37 AM: Quote from: Craig on 02 February 2014, 06:26:30 PM
PS: make sure Curufea gets a copy for the compilation.

Yep - save me from typing it in as I read it :)
Although I've only reformatted 7 so far, at least I can link to them.
Title: Re: New Company: Schutztruppe Erkundigungskommando
Post by: Cherno on 03 February 2014, 01:39:06 PM: I might be wrong here because I don't know much about historic German troop types, but I'm pretty sure that the word should be "Erkundungskommando" - Erkundung for Recce/Reconaissance or Scouting. "Erkundigung" comes from "erkundigen" which more or less means to get information about something via asking, as in "Erkundigen Sie sich beim Informationscenter" - "Get more information at the info center" or "ask for more infprmation at the info center".

Today, the term would be "Aufklärungskommando" (as in the modern Bundeswehr troop type "Panzeraufklärungstruppe" - Armored Reconnaissance/Scouts")*

*Although I think this particular troop type has been cut from the Heer a few year ago.
Title: Re: New Company: Schutztruppe Erkundigungskommando
Post by: Michi on 03 February 2014, 02:03:58 PM: Quote from: Cherno on 03 February 2014, 01:39:06 PM
I might be wrong here because I don't know much about historic German troop types, but I'm pretty sure that the word should be "Erkundungskommando" - Erkundung for Recce/Reconaissance or Scouting. "Erkundigung" comes from "erkundigen" which more or less means to get information about something via asking, as in "Erkundigen Sie sich beim Informationscenter" - "Get more information at the info center" or "ask for more infprmation at the info center".

Today, the term would be "Aufklärungskommando" (as in the modern Bundeswehr troop type "Panzeraufklärungstruppe" - Armored Reconnaissance/Scouts")*

*Although I think this particular troop type has been cut from the Heer a few year ago.

I like "Erkundigungskommando". :D
I imagine those guys running around and gently ask everybody they meet "Excuse me, could you tell me the way to...?" or "Would you mind telling me the time please?"
Title: Re: New Company: Schutztruppe Erkundigungskommando
Post by: oabee on 03 February 2014, 05:57:24 PM: I got the term Erkundigungskommando from Vocabulary of German Military Terms and Abreviations by the Great Britain War Office, 1917. This is available online, just google it. I was trying to find an innocent name to disguise the Company's covert purpose.

I just checked again, and, despite the ravages that age has visited upon my mind, I wrote it down just as they said.

I agree with Michi: I like it. I have an open mind though, and am always open to suggestions from my German speaking colleagues.
Title: Re: New Company: Schutztruppe Erkundigungskommando
Post by: von der Tann on 03 February 2014, 07:19:20 PM: Quote from: oabee on 03 February 2014, 05:57:24 PM
I got the term Erkundigungskommando from Vocabulary of German Military Terms and Abreviations by the Great Britain War Office, 1917. This is available online, just google it. I was trying to find an innocent name to disguise the Company's covert purpose.

I just checked again, and, despite the ravages that age has visited upon my mind, I wrote it down just as they said.

I agree with Michi: I like it. I have an open mind though, and am always open to suggestions from my German speaking colleagues.

I was just staring at the book and it really says Erkundigungskommando. Sounds a bit funny to a German but hey - if you like it.
To be honest, I would have said Erkundungskommando also, mainly because we used that term in the military - same as Vorrauskommando ... people who go in first to prepare the arrival of the main body of troops.
But maybe its on of those language things where after a hundred years things that were indeed used start to sound funny and wrong. Google (almighty instrument of internet search it is) actually did not find anything but this post for the word Erkundigungskommando . So I am at a loss here ...
Title: Re: New Company: Schutztruppe Erkundigungskommando
Post by: Cherno on 03 February 2014, 07:26:58 PM: I have 3 results with the term, one is this thread, one is about a planetary excursion team from Perry Rhodan, and one is some book about World War 2.
Title: Re: New Company: Schutztruppe Erkundigungskommando
Post by: former user on 03 February 2014, 07:38:43 PM: well, it might be correctly written in the source, but it really sounds funny ot antiquated to modern german-speakers
which is actually a bonus lol lol lol

I guess the german anglisms sound as funny as the english germanisms to german ears.... ;)
Title: Re: New Company: Schutztruppe Erkundigungskommando
Post by: oabee on 04 February 2014, 05:19:59 AM: Here's an entry from another source, which supports what von der Tamm posted : Military Vocabulary, German-English and English-German by F. G. Zimmerman, London, 1915:

(http://wrgmr.com/images/erk.jpg)

The Babylon 10 online translator defines Erkundung as "nf. reconnaissance, scouting, act of gathering information about an enemy; collection of data, exploration, examination"

So......Erkundungskommando would be correct? What say you, speakers of German?

Quote
well, it might be correctly written in the source, but it really sounds funny ot antiquated to modern german-speakers
which is actually a bonus

Exactly. Remember, in all things relating to IHMN, that the first three words of the rulebook are "It is 1895...."

I can live with Erkundigungskommando or Erkundungskommando, and would be further interested in your opinions. In choosing a title for the Company, I was quite literally going through the Vocabulary of German Military Terms and Abbreviations line by line until I found something appropriate. :) If people have other ideas, let me know!

Mike O
Title: Re: New Company: Schutztruppe Erkundigungskommando
Post by: former user on 04 February 2014, 07:24:23 AM: please leave it at that :D

just remember, when You start using german, be aware that germans will try to correct You - I believe it is cultural heritage or so ;D lol
Title: Re: New Company: Schutztruppe Erkundigungskommando
Post by: Michi on 04 February 2014, 07:32:03 AM: Quote from: oabee on 04 February 2014, 05:19:59 AM
So......Erkundungskommando would be correct? What say you, speakers of German?

Mike, that is correct.
Erkundung = Reconnaissance
Erkundigung = E/Inquiry or Query

"Erkundungskommando" would be the most plausible term. It sounds modern and actually is the term used in the Bundeswehr nowadays for the forward contingents that scout and prepare assigned areas for the arrival of the main contingents.
However I already said that you should leave it like that. It sounds odd and by that possibly believably antique. By the way: If you google for "Erkundigungstrupp" you´ll get more hits. This still is no proof, perhaps only wrong use of German language, but you have a point there.
And I perfectly second what former user writes:
Quote from: former user on 04 February 2014, 07:24:23 AM
please leave it at that :D

just remember, when You start using german, be aware that germans will try to correct You - I believe it is cultural heritage or so ;D lol
Title: Re: New Company: Schutztruppe Erkundigungskommando
Post by: Thorwin on 04 February 2014, 01:11:07 PM: My Bavarian (not german) advice take Erkundungskommando (modern) or Aufklärungsabteilung which is a more Old School military term.
Erkundigungskommando is like... Hello sir, how are you doing? Before we start this little engagement, would you mind me asking about your favourite colour.
Title: Re: New Company: Schutztruppe Erkundigungskommando
Post by: former user on 04 February 2014, 01:25:38 PM: Quote from: former user on 04 February 2014, 07:24:23 AM

just remember, when You start using german, be aware that ~~germans~~ bavarians ;) will try to correct You - I believe it is cultural heritage or so ;D lol

lol lol lol
Title: Re: New Company: Schutztruppe Erkundigungskommando
Post by: oabee on 04 February 2014, 11:28:30 PM: I produced another PDF with the title of Erkundungskommando for the Company and placed it in the very first post of this thread so those interested can use the one they want. If you've followed this very interesting discussion this far, the link is here:

http://wrgmr.com/pdfs/schutztruppe2.pdf

I appreciate all the help I can get concerning the German language: the online translators leave much to be desired when trying to come up with ideas for IHMN Companies! :)

Mike O
Title: Re: New Company: Schutztruppe Erkundigungskommando
Post by: dice shaker on 05 February 2014, 09:55:37 PM: Hello,

"erkundigen" is more like "to investigate". It would be better for police than military business. "Erkunden" is for reconnaissance.

Greetings from Germany, Sebastian
Title: Re: New Company: Schutztruppe Erkundigungskommando
Post by: Cherno on 05 February 2014, 10:33:31 PM: Dude, you are kinda late to the party ;)
Title: Re: New Company: Schutztruppe Erkundigungskommando
Post by: oabee on 06 February 2014, 12:36:25 AM: Three thoughts:

1. I violated the basic rule of research: never base a decision on only one source. Find another to verify.

2. It occurred to me that the authors of Vocabulary of German Military Terms and Abbreviations , my source for Erkundigungskommando, probably got it wrong because, well, they're British. lol

[Clarification for my British friends and colleagues: The smiley guy after the sentence indicates this was just a joke. Right? Just joking, eh? OK, put the gun down....]

3. Some subjects or pursuits adopt one language for their basic terminology. Italian, for example, is the universal language for music terms. I propose that German be the universal language for military terminology. It is by far the best: it looks right and it sounds great.
Title: Re: New Company: Schutztruppe Erkundigungskommando
Post by: Cherno on 06 February 2014, 01:25:27 AM: O RLY :D

(http://www.tickld.com/cdn_image_content/13625.jpg)

Also http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MusicToInvadePolandTo
Title: Re: New Company: Schutztruppe Erkundigungskommando
Post by: Franz_Josef on 06 February 2014, 02:09:38 AM: My WW I books give it as aufklarung - that would be the period term.
Title: Re: New Company: Schutztruppe Erkundigungskommando
Post by: oabee on 07 February 2014, 01:08:32 AM: Quote from: Franz_Josef on 06 February 2014, 02:09:38 AM
My WW I books give it as aufklarung - that would be the period term.

The 1915 Zimmerman book quoted above lists both aufklarung and erkundung:

(http://wrgmr.com/images/erk.jpg)

The word aufklarung mainly seems to be associated with "enlightenment," specifically THE Enlightenment, becoming the German term for that movement dating from Kant's 1784 essay "Beantwortung der Frage: Was ist Aufklärung?" ("Answering the Question: What is Enlightenment?"). It is definitely associated with reconnaissance, though.

Zimmerman defines it as "reconnaissance of enemy," contrasting with erkundung as "reconnaissance of ground." Not sure where he got this, or how accurate it is.

Given the application here---a Schutztruppen detachment working covertly with the Society of Thule and in need of an innocuous cover story---Erkundungskommando seems to best fit the bill. "Reconnaissance of ground," after all, would require surveying and map-making missions as part of the detachment's job, which would be perfect cover for their covert activities in support of Thule.

Mike O
Title: Re: New Company: Schutztruppe Erkundigungskommando
Post by: oabee on 07 February 2014, 01:37:42 AM: Cherno:

I (unfortunately) had the chance to ride in an "ambulance" a few years back---nothing major, they were just being cautious.

I would MUCH rather have ridden in a Krankenwagen!

As to Music to Invade Poland: mein Gott! Not all of Wagner is The Ride of the Valkyries, for heaven's sake! My sister will travel all the way across the country to watch a good performance of The Ring, and trust me, she will NOT be donning her feldgrau and invading Poland anytime soon. Beethoven makes you "want to invade something"? :o In my teens I used to go to SLEEP listening to Beethoven's symphonies on the old record player.

Probably I should have, but I did not know this trope was out there. Maybe we should all just, you know, move on?

Please be assured that my assertion that German should be the universal military language is based solely on how it looks and sounds and not at all about certain episodes of history.

Mike O
Title: Re: New Company: Schutztruppe Erkundigungskommando
Post by: former user on 07 February 2014, 03:36:40 AM: gosh darn the heck! almost two pages about german verbal efficiency...
truely a language to invade Poland with ;)

so, what are You going to do with the "Erkundingungskommando"? I mean, surely not asking the way to Poland? Or Nyasaland?

so far You used stock pictures, but I am sure You have something on the production line?
please tell us more about this...
Title: Re: New Company: Schutztruppe Erkundigungskommando
Post by: Michi on 07 February 2014, 09:03:24 AM: Quote from: oabee on 07 February 2014, 01:08:32 AM
Zimmerman defines it as "reconnaissance of enemy," contrasting with erkundung as "reconnaissance of ground." Not sure where he got this, or how accurate it is.

That´s perfectly accurate, Mike. Aufklärung in its military use is something completely different than the philosophic term.
Aufklärung is reconnaissance of enemy which even covers reconnaissance of enemy by battle (fight him, see how hard he fights back and learn how strong he is).
Erkundung is reconnaissance of ground that of course can be infected by enemy and therefore could be regarded as Aufklärung as well if you gather information about him, but mainly it is to draw maps, check feasability of infrastructure and the like.
Title: Re: New Company: Schutztruppe Erkundigungskommando
Post by: oabee on 07 February 2014, 11:49:54 AM: Actual production of my Schutztruppe is a ways down the line, I'm afraid. I have a pack of infantry from Askari Minis, and will add their command, Askaris, and a mountain gun and crew, then will probably pick up a Maxim somewhere---the mountain gun crew will do for either the gun or the Maxim. I need another officer figure for Sekonde-Lieutenant Brandt---where from I'm not sure yet, maybe Askari's German officer in their Askari command pack. I do have a figure for Nasibah, the Dark Sword Desert Wings.

In the meantime I'm working on my Company of German archaeologists, and on a bunch of ancient Egyptian ruins, statues, and artifacts, the goal being to have an entire temple to fight over.
Title: Re: New Company: Schutztruppe Erkundigungskommando
Post by: former user on 07 February 2014, 12:15:30 PM: that's interesting, the egyptian ruins....
I am somehow developing my plans into this direction too, but this will make the project very fictional, since french forces and egyptian ruins don't go together....
but with IHMN, who cares....
Title: Re: New Company: Schutztruppe Erkundigungskommando
Post by: Craig on 07 February 2014, 12:18:51 PM: Quote from: former user on 07 February 2014, 12:15:30 PM
... since french forces and egyptian ruins don't go together....
but with IHMN, who cares....

Have you seen the opening scenes of The Mummy? :D
Title: Re: New Company: Schutztruppe Erkundigungskommando
Post by: former user on 07 February 2014, 12:23:21 PM: do bears shit in the woods? lol

yes of course, but this is hardly meant to be historical, so....
or do You mean to explain that IHMN is "The Mummy" inspired?
because I am still trying to get the story angle of IHMN....

anyway, my version would be less supernatural and more "Stargate" style
Title: Re: New Company: Schutztruppe Erkundigungskommando
Post by: Michi on 07 February 2014, 12:57:40 PM: Quote from: former user on 07 February 2014, 12:23:21 PM
anyway, my version would be ... more "Stargate" style

Well no, no French in that. Fact.
Title: Re: New Company: Schutztruppe Erkundigungskommando
Post by: former user on 07 February 2014, 01:21:31 PM: well, facts and SF...... 8)
Title: Re: New Company: Schutztruppe Erkundigungskommando
Post by: Michi on 07 February 2014, 01:30:40 PM: Quote from: former user on 07 February 2014, 01:21:31 PM
well, facts and SF...... 8)

What? Stargate is fictional???? :o

But back on topic: These are my Askari, Mike. They have a MaximMG, but regretfully I don´t remember who made them. Perhaps some fellow member can point you there:
Quote from: Michi on 23 March 2012, 07:57:29 PM
Great War German auxiliaries from Sudan:
(http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll111/wamasaka/Mini2011/MiniaturenfotosOriginale114.jpg)
(http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll111/wamasaka/Mini2011/MiniaturenfotosOriginale112.jpg)
(http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll111/wamasaka/Mini2011/MiniaturenfotosOriginale108.jpg)
(http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll111/wamasaka/Mini2011/MiniaturenfotosOriginale106.jpg)
(http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll111/wamasaka/Mini2011/MiniaturenfotosOriginale103.jpg)
(http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll111/wamasaka/Mini2011/MiniaturenfotosOriginale099.jpg)
Title: Re: New Company: Schutztruppe Erkundigungskommando
Post by: Plynkes on 07 February 2014, 01:47:31 PM: Brigade Games Great War in East Africa range, Michi.

The "Maxim" is a 1908 Spandau-built model, but I guess nobody is going to worry about its time-travelling properties in IHMN. :)
Title: Re: New Company: Schutztruppe Erkundigungskommando
Post by: Michi on 07 February 2014, 01:51:35 PM: Quote from: Plynkes on 07 February 2014, 01:47:31 PM
Brigade Games Great War in East Africa range, Michi.

The "Maxim" is a 1908 Spandau-built model, but I guess nobody is going to worry about it's time-travelling properties in IHMN. :)

I bow to you my hero! Thank you for enlighting the ignorant. ;)

Time travelling, well yes, it´s 1895, isn´t it? Wissmanntruppe...
Title: Re: New Company: Schutztruppe Erkundigungskommando
Post by: former user on 07 February 2014, 02:42:23 PM: wow @Michi, this is a cool collection - didn't know You are into those too.....
Title: Re: New Company: Schutztruppe Erkundigungskommando
Post by: Craig on 07 February 2014, 05:50:42 PM: It is indeed 1895, but after half a century of unparalleled scientific and engineering advances who know what might be available?
Title: Re: New Company: Schutztruppe Erkundigungskommando
Post by: Michi on 07 February 2014, 06:01:43 PM: Quote from: former user on 07 February 2014, 02:42:23 PM
wow @Michi, this is a cool collection - didn't know You are into those too.....

Then you seem to have missed those as well:
Quote from: Michi on 30 March 2012, 04:18:45 PM
This time it´s German Southwest Africa: Nama auxiliaries:

(http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll111/wamasaka/Mini2011/MiniaturenfotosOriginale142.jpg)

(http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll111/wamasaka/Mini2011/MiniaturenfotosOriginale139.jpg)

(http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll111/wamasaka/Mini2011/MiniaturenfotosOriginale141.jpg)

(http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll111/wamasaka/Mini2011/MiniaturenfotosOriginale140.jpg)

(http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll111/wamasaka/Mini2011/MiniaturenfotosOriginale138.jpg)

(http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll111/wamasaka/Mini2011/MiniaturenfotosOriginale136.jpg)
Title: Re: New Company: Schutztruppe Erkundigungskommando
Post by: former user on 07 February 2014, 06:05:33 PM: indeed
no nude girls at all :o
great idea!
Title: Re: New Company: Schutztruppe Erkundigungskommando
Post by: oabee on 07 February 2014, 06:07:26 PM: Quote from: Craig on 07 February 2014, 05:50:42 PM
It is indeed 1895, but after half a century of unparalleled scientific and engineering advances who know what might be available?

Absolutely----they got that Mauser C96 into production at least a year earlier, didn't they? lol

Michi: love Brigades' Askaris. I think they'll do nicely for my scouts, although they won't look nearly as nice as yours! :-*
Title: Re: New Company: Schutztruppe Erkundigungskommando
Post by: former user on 07 February 2014, 06:16:15 PM: in fact, it is the Mauser C86....
Title: Re: New Company: Schutztruppe Erkundigungskommando
Post by: Michi on 07 February 2014, 06:21:31 PM: Quote from: former user on 07 February 2014, 06:05:33 PM
no nude girls at all :o

Wagermani and their families along with
carriers, Ruga-Ruga and other natives are due to be painted, I know. Damned reputation, damned prejudices...
Title: Re: New Company: Schutztruppe Erkundigungskommando
Post by: former user on 07 February 2014, 06:34:40 PM: going into WW1??
Title: Re: New Company: Schutztruppe Erkundigungskommando
Post by: Michi on 07 February 2014, 06:42:15 PM: Quote from: former user on 07 February 2014, 06:34:40 PM
going into WW1??

Actually I had the vision in 2012 that somebody will write a set of rules soon that will inspire somebody else to create a "fictional" company that would suit some set of miniatures that should be painted then to get into gaming... or so. :D
Title: Re: New Company: Schutztruppe Erkundigungskommando
Post by: former user on 07 February 2014, 07:03:16 PM: IHMN large scale in the german colonies?
Title: Re: New Company: Schutztruppe Erkundigungskommando
Post by: oabee on 09 February 2014, 01:57:01 AM: Had the Vocabulary of German Military Terms and Abbreviations on order, and it arrived today. Turns out it is a 1917 publication by the U.S. Army War College listed as a "reprint of a British Document." So, hey: maybe the Yanks messed it up.

Anyway, here is a copy of the page from which I chose the fateful term of Erkundigungskommando:

(http://wrgmr.com/images/erkun.jpg)

As you can see, there are listings for both Erkundung and Erkundigung in the context of reconnaissance.

Cherno may be interested to see this definition in the book:
(http://wrgmr.com/images/krank.jpg)

I am gratified that my choice of "Kommando" has not been questioned: I wanted the Company to be a permanent command or detachment, not just a patrol (Patrouille). Do I have that correct, German-language-expert-guys?

Mike O
Title: Re: New Company: Schutztruppe Erkundigungskommando
Post by: Michi on 09 February 2014, 01:50:25 PM: Quote from: oabee on 09 February 2014, 01:57:01 AM
I am gratified that my choice of "Kommando" has not been questioned: I wanted the Company to be a permanent command or detachment, not just a patrol (Patrouille). Do I have that correct, German-language-expert-guys?

It´s more a question to the German-military-language-expert-guys, but yet, you have that correct.
Kommando does not tell anything about size or duration of the detachment, it simply specifies a task force of unspecified kind. Patrol would have been "Streife" instead.