Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => The Great War => Topic started by: King Tiger on February 04, 2014, 02:02:39 PM
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What are the major significant differences between WWII French uniforms, weapons, equipment etc to WWI French?, I wanted to do a late war WWI French force and wondered if the warlord French would fit close enough to work at 28mm.
I know great war do early
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Depend how fussy you are I suppose. The MAS rifle bears a passing resemblance to the Lebel in 28mm. I think many people would say they are close enough not to worry. It is one of the more plausible and least jarring examples of using proxy figures around, I feel.
The FM24/29 LMGs would have to go, though.
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I think a little conversion work would be enough for them, the basic shape at that scale and using the 3 foot rule would hide most sins I would hope
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Yes, I think a competent modeller could probably convert those LMGs into something that could pass for a Chauchat at a glance. Being all fingers and thumbs I wouldn't put myself in that category, however. :)
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I took a quick glance , I couldn't see any MAS-36, only Berthiers mle34 rifles, so You are fine with that.
(MAS-36 would be carbine length, and the respective lebel carbines were adapted in 1935 only, so nothing for fussies ;))
Yes the Chatellerault would have to go though, unless You interpret it as some BAR prototype they got hold of;
the 75mm has the wrong wheels; I am not sure about the mortar - it could be the actual one introduced during WW1
no need to worry about the uniforms at all, the sculpts are so ugly that probably noone would recognize any minute details ;)
and You could probably use the belgian chasseurs as chasseurs alpins.
and probably the regular belgians too
never mind the mauser carbines, the berthier rebarreled version had a wooden part on top too
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I couldn't see any MAS-36, only Berthiers mle34 rifles
Ha, I was just going by the spiel on Warlord's website, which talks of MAS-36s. I have no idea what they are meant to be, point is they don't look too different from a Lebel.
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as I said, IMHO opinion the sculpts are very poor, but I think I can recognize the one-piece stock and the clip magazine for the 5-round clip underneath = Berthier rifle
But You are totally right, the box art clearly advertises Lebel rifle and MAS carbine....
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Not talking about the box art (I didn't look at that) but about what they say on their website. The only rifle they mention in the text that accompanies the infantry pack is the MAS-36. Myself I am unfamiliar with French weapons of this era.
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:D and I don't read homepages lol
well, I did regurgitate a bit about the frenchies, true....
anyway, the miniatures are just fine
although I'd go for Crusader Miniatures, seriously - they are also tagged WW2, but they have mousquetons Berthier old style and are IMHO better sculpts.
I can't tell if they are combinable though, since I don't do Adrian helmets
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For the lmg I think simply cutting off the top mag, and putting a simple U shape underneath around the hand would suffice, the basic shape at 28mm doesn't seem that far off, and I'm certainly sure nobody would care as they'll be too busy laughing at the guns performance.
The rifles I saw very little issue with, at 28mm, en masse, 3 feet away on a table a rifle looks like a rifle, so long as it vaguely resembles it and the rest of the equipment does that's fine (I also agree with the quality of allot of warlord sculpts, but these are readily available models, stocked by numerous places, so its easy to get quantities of them to do a platoon if I go ahead with it)
For artillery I'll just use great war, you'd probably only have 1-2 75mm guns, so its not much issue really I suppose.
In essence they appear to be a viable alternative for a casual gamer with no interest in button counting, the paintjob is the main distinguishing factor I think to looking like they are from WWI
Shame getting French tanks in the UK is a pain
And I had forgotten all about crusader, they do indeed have far superior sculpts, and since north star do them my store could probably get them, I will have to make considerations and have a chat.
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Indeed, ignore the button counting, the only thing You need to worry about are the LMG actually, if at all
I am pretty sure by 1918 some french used other types
"Consequently in September 1918, barely two months before the Armistice of November 11, the A.E.F. in France had already initiated the process of replacing the Chauchat with the M1918 Browning Automatic Rifle"
and
"As early as November 6, 1918 the French Government had approached the United States for the purchase of 15,000 Browning Automatic Rifles."
says Wiki about it.... there must have been some trial issues....
so You only need to reposition the magazine from top to bottom or simply use Belgian LMG...
or You could just wait a little bit until Victrix releases the plastic ww1 french...
since You are not peculiar about the quality of the sculpts ;)
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While victrix usually are excellent quality (especially later kits) the issue is their schedule, they still have half a dozen kits to release, 2 of which should of been done the end of last year, I don't see anything else like that coming till 2015, and that's an honest guess
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I can't guess the urgence of your project.
I can only say that I have a job and no kids and that I can manage to paint around 15-20 miniatures a month to a standard that I find satisfactory.
You can assert Your own speed by experience and the magnitude of Your project and decide whether it is worth waiting the 12 months or not....
I know that with the usual WW1 wargaming a lot of miniatures are usually involved and that it might be worth waiting....
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Oh I can get about 30+ models a week done, my record so far was 52 in a day, it don't take long with my way of painting
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oh wow ...
::)
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I have got Warlord's French, the casting is not great, but they are passable when painted.
I also have Woodbine designs French (available from Gripping Beast). These are much better scults/casts and the separate head system is great.
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For WW1 late war French take a look at Forgotten Glorious Company of Art;
http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=61523.0 (http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=61523.0)
I received one of the free samples of the WW1 French Soldier and was very pleased with the detail, excellent casting and the separate head. Funnily enough to your post, I'm painting up mine in post 1935 French colors for Pulp gaming. I haven't actually ordered anything other than the free sample, so I can't vouch for them in that regard.
I look forward to seeing your force painted up and in action!
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oh, yes these are the best sculpts I know in that department
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I'm working on a similar project.
One or two of the Warlord guys have shorter rifles, I think these may be the carbines. Since it's so few I ignore it, looks like a rifle on the table anyway.
http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=62106.0
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Ha, I was just going by the spiel on Warlord's website, which talks of MAS-36s. I have no idea what they are meant to be, point is they don't look too different from a Lebel.
MAS-36 was the new rifle the French army were supposed to transition to but, well, things happened and very few were actually distributed to troops.
You can still get them as surplus, still in storage grease, never fired, for quite cheap (because quite frankly it's a horrible gun).
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@mrtn
I just checked out Your project, really cool stuff You have there
I am surprised to see lebels or MAS-36, which packs from Warlord are these ?
@maxxon the gun-nutters say that it is actually a very good rifle, but these aspects are completely out of my field of knowledge.
Why is it awful?
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@maxxon the gun-nutters say that it is actually a very good rifle, but these aspects are completely out of my field of knowledge.
Why is it awful?
I actually have one.
It has no safety. How are you supposed to carry it?
The trigger is bad, but that's par with other low grade military weapons.
The bolt handle is idiotic, look how they had to bend it to make it even remotely operable. You're supposed to be able to operate the bolt without lowering the weapon.
Instead of a cleaning rod or something actually useful, they decided to include bayonet storage. That might actually be useful considering the shooting qualities of this rifle, except the mounting is pretty flimsy, it'll probably bend if you hit something solid.
And at least mine won't hit the broad side of a barn and that certainly isn't due to wear and tear...
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THX for the info
I wonder why it is regarded as a good weapon? maybe in comparison to others of it's period?
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I wonder why it is regarded as a good weapon? maybe in comparison to others of it's period?
Apparently the Lebel was even worse, though I have no first hand exprerience. It was definitely outmoded at least.
The fact that the MAS rifles were left in storage after war and American hand-me-downs were taken into use instead should already tell something... though the French persevered with the MAS 49/56 design which wasn't much of an improvement...
Comparing WWII rifles today may be misleading, because e.g. pretty much all the Mausers have been dragged though mud across the Europe and hopefully rebuilt a few times while these are shining new like the day they left the factory.
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another inexplicable phenomenon in the french army.....
I understand that in WW1 the use of the Berthier was extended and required a lengthening to rifle, and it was then preferred because of the Mannlicher style clip loading as opposed to the tube magazine of the Lebel - which in turn led to the 5-clip magazine. But then after the war the Legion ask for the Lebel back. And then in 1935, they go about shortening and rebarreling Lebels (3 round tube!!).... why would this be?
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And then in 1935, they go about shortening and rebarreling Lebels (3 round tube!!).... why would this be?
The general trend was towards shorter, more compact weapons. The MAS is actually pretty ok in the length, handiness and weight department.
But in this case it seems the idea was to chop the old Lebels into carbines and equip drivers, cooks and the like with them.
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yes, but cavalry too, strange enough....
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yes, but cavalry too, strange enough....
Maybe they figured cavalry were not really front line troops anymore and just needed something that looks nice on parade...
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I don't have a reason for that (by the time it would have been trucked cavalry anyway) but a strong argument to support Your claim is using up the 8mm ammo stocks after the Berthiers were rebarelled to 7.5 mm at about the same time....
and indeed, 2nd line troops were not in need of effective weapons...
maybe it was because horsed cavalry was around in the mediterranean army and they equipped them all with lebels....
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Is it just my imagination, is the WWI French Currassier...a Napoleonic Currassier :P
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I guess they are out of the question as they are US-based but Brigade Games also do a great range of late war French:
http://brigadegames.3dcartstores.com/France_c_373.html (http://brigadegames.3dcartstores.com/France_c_373.html)
I think the first packs were done be Mike Owen, while Paul Hicks sculpted the later set. (IF I'm not mistaken.)
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are You talking about Brigade Games?
this is very interesting - some of them (WW1 french) look the same like renegade miniatures - I wonder who made these...
they really all should advertise the sculptor
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I did look at brigade games, and noticed north star stock a tiny amount of their range, I was especially impressed by them having French St-Chamond tanks, which I would love to have one as its a gorgeous tank I think, I'll have to ask my shopkeep to see if they can get more in if needed, or at minimum at least a tank or two
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are You talking about Brigade Games?
this is very interesting - some of them (WW1 french) look the same like renegade miniatures - I wonder who made these...
they really all should advertise the sculptor
As far as I know (and I might be wrong) Mike Owen of Artizan Design fame sculpted the Renegade Great War miniatures and also quite some of the Brigade Games Great War miniatures and also of Brigade's Back of Beyond (Storm in the East) ranges. Although some of the Brigade Games miniatures for the Great War look very much like Paul Hicks' work to me (for example the French mortar crew and a lot of the Austrians).
I guess Lon Weiss could shed a light on this as he used to be active on here.
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I guess Lon Weiss could shed a light on this as he used to be active on here.
well he still is
anyway. You certainly know a lot more than I do
In my hands, I had Renegade and Artizan a lot, and what You say seems to fit because they are pretty much compatible. However, the range is so disparate by now that it clearly shows Mike Owen's skill development :D which is a charming thing.
If all this is true, I might call my collection "The Mike Owen Batallion" :D
I wanted to order some Brigade Games, US or not, and on the pictures they look very much like Mike Owen handwriting.
Does Paul Hicks sculpt Woodbine WW1? because I have some of the SCW and they are really nice and also quite compatible, though I would place them between Artizan and Great War Miniatures
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Does Paul Hicks sculpt Woodbine WW1? because I have some of the SCW and they are really nice and also quite compatible, though I would place them between Artizan and Great War Miniatures
From what I know (and again I might be wrong), the Woodbine miniatures were sculpted by a gentleman going by the nickname of Soapy, who has also done a lot of the (older) dark age miniatures for Gripping Beast and the Boxer Rebellion miniatures for Jimbibbly.
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well, on pictures they look good and they are allegedely compatible with Great War miniatures, so fine with me.
I'll order soon enough
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Here's a question for you: If someone was gaming interwar, specifically games starting in '34-'35 (though they could conceivably go to '39 I guess), what are the key dates for major French equipment changes? I think the biggest question is when did they go from the blue uniforms to green, but major rifle and LMG changes (when did they drop the Chauchat?), would be nice to know too. The Hotchkiss HMG at least would be constant all the way through, correct?
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I guess I am meant to answer the questions?....
well, for starters, this is a lot of information that I would have to look up, cause I am not Wikipedia, I know only where to look stuff up... so take the following from out of my armpit like.... rough info. ;)
for starters, the khaki uniform for all (green? I guess this is a misunderstanding, cause the typical mustard khaki can be regarded as a bit "greenish" in comparison to the classical indian khaki - if You mean the trial uniform from 1911 look up "verte reseda")
was theoretically introduced in 1921, but it does not mean that the huge amounts of horizon blue and american khaki stock were not used up until even 1940, as could happen in every army. As a rough estimate, let's assume that by 1930 (when the uniform cut of 1921 - loose fold down collar with shirt and tie visible underneath - was finally worn by all active units) only reservists and recruits would still wear horizon blue, maybe as fatigue or garrison dress. I guess the greenest You can get is some kind of olive green when the uniforms are freshly issued.
Next we have the introduction of the Fusil-mitrailleur Modèle 1924 M29 and the 7.5 mm ammo in 1925, (leaving the nasty business with the similarity to the Mauser ammo aside) and the rebarelling of 8mm rifles starting with 1934.
The Hotchkiss mle 1914 was never phased out nor rebarreled to 7.5 mm, but the french used such a multitude of heavy and light and medium MG for different purposes, it's not so easy as with the germans. I am not really knowledgable enough to elaborate on that subject.
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The segment of the discussion about WW2 war pictures featuring the French has been moved to a new, more fitting home.
http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=63165.0 (http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=63165.0)
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There's an extremely short segment in 'Twelve Monkeys' where Bruce Willis time-travels back to WW1 in a French trench (possibly with a wench stench).
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The segment of the discussion about WW2 war pictures featuring the French has been moved to a new, more fitting home.
http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=63165.0 (http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=63165.0)
merci Monsieur
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@mrtn
I just checked out Your project, really cool stuff You have there
I am surprised to see lebels or MAS-36, which packs from Warlord are these ?
I've bought both the Defenders of France box as well as the infantry one. I think they have more variant sculpts than shown on the site.
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it's two different ones? wow!
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Thanks former user!
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be my guest ;)
is there a reason You ask?
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Interwar games, probably pulp. There will be some action on the continent at some point, so a few interwar poilus might make a showing at some point.
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hmmm
sounds interesting...
I would like to see some interwar sources where they actually wear helmets. The Riff war photos I recall never show any.
And miniatures with bonnet de police are really rare....
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That's the French side-cap, correct? Maybe some American heads with greenstuff to extend the points? I'll probably just stick to the Adrians if I wind up using any French Military forces.
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it's the french WW1 sidecap - scarab has a few with it. Yes it looks a bit american. Maybe Empress SCW gorillo heads with the tassle cut off....
the prewar one is called callot and looks more like the british sidecap.
I can't recall right now which one was used in interwar, maybe both
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Maybe Empress SCW gorillo heads with the tassle cut off....
Also a good idea! But does Empress sell conversion heads? I didn't see any in their SCW stuff, but maybe I missed them?
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Yes You did
head sets is a special entry
http://www.empressminiatures.com/userimages/procart33.htm
they even have gorillos withou tassle