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Other Stuff => General Wargames and Hobby Discussion => Topic started by: Too Bo Coo on 03 February 2014, 03:19:43 PM
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Have you guys read this article?
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/columns/criticalintel/10946-Games-Workshop-is-Dead-Long-Live-Games-Workshop?utm_source=postit&utm_medium=share&utm_campaign=all
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Have you guys read this article?
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/columns/criticalintel/10946-Games-Workshop-is-Dead-Long-Live-Games-Workshop?utm_source=postit&utm_medium=share&utm_campaign=all
Interesting summary but I don't think that there is anything there that hasn't been said here.
I also disagree that 3D printing isn't going to cause problems for GW. And I also don't agree with his conclusion. GW suffers very real threats to both enter level gamers and long term gamers that their core business model has caused. I don't see how they are going to rectify that. They have priced themselves out of new gamers at this point and made a game that many existing gamers can't play due to time constraints.
Its not viable and I haven't seen or heard anything from GW that makes me see how they are going to address the problems.
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I thought it was an interesting article, and I will simply state that I don't know enough to say one way or another if GW is 'on the way out'. The college age students I get that happen to know about Warhammer/40K etc. only know it through video games and the Heresy books. That there is a tabletop game is usually news to them.
At some point GW may just produce fiction and license out their IP for media they're not equipped to handle in house.
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Interesting summary but I don't think that there is anything there that hasn't been said here.
I also disagree that 3D printing isn't going to cause problems for GW.
Aye to both.
GW may well offer a self-printing solution, but the guy completely misses the point of self-printing: Ppl having a 3D printer at home (or a friend or a printing store with one nearby). Why would it matter that GW can afford to buy premium top-of-the-art 3D printers?
As soon as the technology for 3D scanning and printing at home catches up, quality-wise AND also price-wise, GW (and other manufacturers) will certainly face a big problem (you can then make a full army, just buying and scanning a few sets of components).
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That won't happen.
Look at the price of the cartridge for a printer nowadays.
Awfully overpriced.
And there are millions time more people using printer than 3D-printing.
It will always be cheaper to buy from a manufacturer.
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Aye, that. Is there such a huge need for home 3D printers to justify their development, even close to the usefulness of the ol' inkjet? I dunno. I don't know what the situation will be with home 3D printers in a few years, or ever, but I keep getting the feeling that the attitude of it heralding the gaming singularity needs to be tempered a tad.
Besides: at this rate, by the time home 3D printers become viable for the cost and quality of mini printing, no-one will be buying GW minis anyway. ;D
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I see it following the same pattern as with ordinary printing. First of all, only specialist printers or studios had printers able to produce decent quality pictures, invitations, posters etc.. Nowadays most people can print out an A4 size picture or photograph at home and would only need to a printing shop for an usual or high quality image.
Within 10yrs I can imagine the price of both printers and resin coming down to a level where they're fairly common in the home, but larger manufacturers will still be able to produce the highest quality mins or buy the resin in bulk to keep their prices low enough.
After 20yrs we should be able to produce most of what we want at home, only going to specialists for unusual stuff our home printers can't handle. The price of resin (or perhaps even an alternative material will be developed) should come down as the market for it drives manufacturers to find cheaper ways of making it. That doesn't mean companies won't be able to offer cheap deals for bulk printing, but the market will certainly change a hell of a lot with the customer being able to take on more themself.
It happens with everything - cameras, computers, printers - eventually what was once considered advanced technology becomes part of an ordinary household. Of course, in order for that to happen there must be a market for it in the home, but I really don't see that as an issue.
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I can only say, that about 25 years ago, I was told the same about colour printers.
No-one needed it at home, and I would never be able to afford one. Don't underestimate the power of technology.
Look at phones: How many ppl actually NEED to be able to access the internet at all times and from all locations? How on earth did those that claim they do cope with everyday living before the arrival of the smartphone?
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3d printers would be great for replacement parts for things for starters.
Need a new washer? 3d print it.
Clip breaks on something! 3d print it.
I can see them becoming very useful.
Not to mention the speed at which they will allow manufactures of all sorts of products to do very fast prototyping.
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I assume that there will be no shortage of designers who will sell the designs to you as PDF file or whatever.
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3d printers would be great for replacement parts for things for starters.
One small example of that is the little wheel on the front of the shower. Ours split - a tiny little peg inside, only half an inch across - and the cost of a replacement plastic wheel was about £20, because it's a special part that is only available as part of the front assembly and is not sold individually. I glued it in the end, but I'm waiting for it to break again and we're back to changing the temperature by pliers.
Just think of how easy it already is to make terrain pieces using a 3d printer. Make (or buy) one section of castle wall, say, and then print out as much as you can afford with the resin.
I don't see how GW or anyone else will be able to stop people simply scanning their product and printing out multiples at home. There may be some attempts to stop it at first - as with music - but it will be damn difficult to stop people.
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I can only say, that about 25 years ago, I was told the same about colour printers.
No-one needed it at home, and I would never be able to afford one. Don't underestimate the power of technology.
And do you print at home ?
I don't.
For photos, I use a photo shop.
For rules, I use site likes Lulu.
Always cheaper.
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And do you print at home ?
Urm ... yes ...
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Urm ... yes ...
I do in a way does work count ;D lol
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Look at the price of the cartridge for a printer nowadays.
It isn't a legitimate comparison. Printer manufacturers make their money from ink and not printers. Hence the ridiculous price and the attempts to add DRM to printer cartridges. 3D printer manufacturers make their money from selling you a printer.
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And do you print at home ?
I don't.
You != everyone else
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But seriously ? The price of the ink + the price of the photo paper is really high, it's always better to print your photos in a shop.
I think 3D printers will be in every design agency and even miniature manufacturer but won't be at home : there's no need for it.
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Well, as with all predictions we'll just have to wait and see one way or the other.
The relevant question to this thread is, what will GW be doing about it? What should they do about it?
There's a general rule of doubling with computers (Moore's Law?), where the power of devices doubles roughly every two years. If 3d printing follows this pattern then it won't be too long before devices accurate enough for the eye to find no fault at 28mm scale become available for home use at a decent price.
What GW will need to do is stay able to provide something that people cannot get elsewhere - at home or from other companies. It will be a head-scratcher for them and no mistake, but at least they have the money to invest in development.
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So who sells you the 3D 'ink'?
Lots of different companies. Its not relevant though. The comparison isn't the same.
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Yeah, but do you print books or do you print army rosters and airport boarding passes? ;)
Given that companies artificially inflate the cost of ink its not the same thing.
I have a black and white laser printer that I have owned for a decade and the price of toner, while expensive, is nothing like the price of ink for an inkjet or similar printer. I print off lots of things and have printed off books as well since it is economically feasible for me.
When I had an inkjet I didn't do this because of the cost.
No-one I know who has a 3D printer has complained about the price of their material. And they haven't ever complained about being locked into buying from a single supplier. They talk about size limitations and resolution but never material.
The market for these things is much different and comparing them to inkjet printers is not useful
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I think 3D printers will be in every design agency and even miniature manufacturer but won't be at home : there's no need for it.
Lots of people disagree
http://inhabitat.com/study-shows-desktop-3d-printers-can-save-households-up-to-2000-each-year/
3d printing is commonly viewed as an expensive emerging technology – however a new study by Michigan Technological University (MTU) shows that purchasing a 3d printer may actually make sound financial sense. The study found that a savings of up to $2,000 a year can be made by printing small everyday household objects instead of purchasing them from stores.
Read more: Study Shows Desktop 3D Printers Can Save Households Up to $2,000 Each Year | Inhabitat - Sustainable Design Innovation, Eco Architecture, Green Building
Check out all the items there are on Thingverse that you can already print.
http://www.thingiverse.com
For instance they had a file to print a 3D key for my snowblower. A key I broke.
http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:238925
Or how about printing your own 3D terrain for a Space Hulk type game
http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:241020
The machines are already at the $3000-4000 range and there are a series of printing patents that are going to expire soon that will create even better machines.
As it stands you could probably buy a $3000-4000 machine and make your money back in a few years.
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To me the biggest restriction on 3D printing is not cost of ink, but materials strength. No matter what sort of fancy resin you put in, it won't be the equal of a say a cheap drop-forged wrench or a proper steel washer. Maybe for lower-strength items you can get expensive resins which will hold up to the forces you expect it to be subjected to, but even then, it won't be as cheap as just using a proper material. Going back to the washer example, maybe you have a washer that won't be subjected to too much strain, and have a fairly strong resin "ink" to print (maybe one of these fancier ones with metal bits in 'em), but even if that "ink" packet is comparatively cheap a decade from now, it won't be cheaper than wandering down to the hardware store and buying a replacement washer for a quarter.
3d Printers aren't replicators or magic atomic forges. They do have relevant restrictions.
HOW-SO-EVER these concerns really doesn't apply to minis-making, which is actually one of the best possible hobby uses for a 3d printer.
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HOW-SO-EVER these concerns really doesn't apply to minis-making, which is actually one of the best possible hobby uses for a 3d printer.
Or anything else that people are suggesting currently using 3D printers for ;)
That said, NASA and others are already examining the use of 3D printers to create rocket parts.
http://www.space.com/22119-3d-printed-rocket-part-test.html
So if they can build rocket parts from a 3D printer I suspect that at some point we'll see something that can do you a washer :)
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Anyway, back to GW... ::)
while i haven't seen the WD/Visions Mag myself,here's a review,doesn't look that much visionary to me :?
http://taleofpainters.blogspot.de/2014/02/review-white-dwarf-weekly-and-warhammer.html (http://taleofpainters.blogspot.de/2014/02/review-white-dwarf-weekly-and-warhammer.html)
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To me the biggest restriction on 3D printing is not cost of ink, but materials strength. No matter what sort of fancy resin you put in, it won't be the equal of a say a cheap drop-forged wrench or a proper steel washer. Maybe for lower-strength items you can get expensive resins which will hold up to the forces you expect it to be subjected to, but even then, it won't be as cheap as just using a proper material. Going back to the washer example, maybe you have a washer that won't be subjected to too much strain, and have a fairly strong resin "ink" to print (maybe one of these fancier ones with metal bits in 'em), but even if that "ink" packet is comparatively cheap a decade from now, it won't be cheaper than wandering down to the hardware store and buying a replacement washer for a quarter.
3d Printers aren't replicators or magic atomic forges. They do have relevant restrictions.
HOW-SO-EVER these concerns really doesn't apply to minis-making, which is actually one of the best possible hobby uses for a 3d printer.
I believe they are making firearms from 3d printers.
But since GW wont be doing this, presumably, it's all moot. :D
It's always hard to gauge innovations and their impacts, as such predictions must necessarily be restricted from including any as-yet-to-be-created innovations that could be even more significant. How this will effect GW? I certainly cant say, but it does seem that they have been like a large animal flailing around. Why else begin all of these wonderful games, with capital investment to match enthusiasm, and then to drop them into oblivion.... It just boggles the mind.
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I believe they are making firearms from 3d printers.
That is correct. However, all but one such firearm made to date used some key unprinted parts, like the receiver. And not one of them has survived their first fire trial.
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And do you print at home ?
I would have thought that self-evident, but yes, I do. A lot.
Actually, among the stuff I print is paper-terrain pdf's (Worldworks, Whitewash City, etc.). Print shops are not very common around here, and they are more expensive than doing it yourself.
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That is correct. However, all but one such firearm made to date used some key unprinted parts, like the receiver. And not one of them has survived their first fire trial.
I don't know about guns, but I've held a working wrench made by a 3D printer (with tightening screw (or whatever it's called) and everything), just like this one:
https://www.google.dk/search?q=wrench&hl=da&qscrl=1&rlz=1T4GUEA_daDK572DK572&tbm=isch&imgil=hm9pnvnB6-783M%253A%253Bhttps%253A%252F%252Fencrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com%252Fimages%253Fq%253Dtbn%253AANd9GcT-PYVkNZpG8KDcOPf_SfxUjURlsybtNyLim37JepMjxjyyrFUu%253B2500%253B1992%253Bo7i_h3VdbR0FfM%253Bhttp%25253A%25252F%25252Fen.wikipedia.org%25252Fwiki%25252FFile%25253AChrome_Vanadium_Adjustable_Wrench.jpg&source=iu&usg=__dS1b6yFW1HKElELOtrfmCAC7URk%3D&sa=X&ei=FEzyUruhLYiGywPz14HQCQ&ved=0CEEQ9QEwAQ&biw=1115&bih=410.
Quite impressive.
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I bought a colour laser printer for home, cheaper than an inkjet and better quality prints.
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I bought a colour laser printer for home, cheaper than an inkjet and better quality prints.
Laser printers are still somewhat expensive her in DK. Prints are cheaper per piece though, but you also have to be able to afford the price for the cartridges (expensive, but longer lasting).
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Laser printers are still somewhat expensive her in DK. Prints are cheaper per piece though, but you also have to be able to afford the price for the cartridges (expensive, but longer lasting).
Really? I picked up an all-in-one lasterjet for 99 euro here in Nederland. The cartridges are about 60, but they last for the better part of a year.
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I have splitted this 3D printers discussion out of the GW thread.
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You have split. There is no such word as splitted in current usage. It is correct in old english though and your post might even legitimise its return to the merriam webster regular edition.
I dont know about you, but I splitted all the time! lol :D
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Really? I picked up an all-in-one lasterjet for 99 euro here in Nederland. The cartridges are about 60, but they last for the better part of a year.
Just made a quick search and came up with prices from DDK 2,500 to 4,000 (€ 330-540) for colour laserjets, and about 6-700 (€ 80-95) for a monochrome.
I suspect it may have something to do with VAT/excise tax of which we have a lot going 'round.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iS-0Az7dgRY