Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => Medieval Adventures => Topic started by: Crossedlances on February 09, 2014, 10:43:16 AM
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Hi all,
The Crossed Lance's team were given a set of medieval football rules recently.
At Vapnaratak the Lance and Longbow Society were very impressed with our jousting and mounted melee' game, we also explained the game we have coming out in April, which is a foot melee' and archery set which includes a crowd event game, this is for the eliminated knights to play on in as squires.
We have decided to give back to the community 50% of the profit from this game. This 50% WILL go to TROOP AID http://www.troopaid.info/ (a local charity in Solihull) for as long as the rules sell and will include any revisions.
We are aiming for August to release these football rules, as we need to adapt them to work in the same way as the current Crossed Lance's rule sets. We will include a crowd event game to improve the game, as having played at Atherstone in the medieval football game played there, we have a pretty good insight into what we can add to the crowd events.
Martin
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Sounds good, do you plan miniatures for Foot melee?
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We have some already for thee foote melee' and more due to be released. http://crossedlances.com/
The football game & figures should be fun to do, the designer could be very busy.
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I'll keep my eye out for your medieval football rules and hopefully football figures.
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Well......As to figures. we will need Villains elbowing :-[, tripping up others lol and running with the ball :D most figures people have should fit in as is 8).
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Interesting.
Perhaps these rules will be compatible with any skirmish rules! It could be funny to have villagers or soldiers playing when the enemy is late to come. :)
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Villains
Not Aston Villains? :(
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Not Aston Villians that's for sure...... 8)
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Read about a yearly 18th Century 'football' match played in Lincolnshire where the object was to get the ball across the parish boundry of two close villages by any means and the teams were made up from anyone who wanted to have a bash...people were badly injured and a few were even killed in some years. The match was supposed to have had a very long history but was eventually banned. The Haxey Hood Game which is still played each year is said to have Medieval origins and the lunacy of it all can be watched if you wish to go along. Looking forward to seeing what you come up with :)
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Hi DM exactly the Atherstone one is 5 miles from me, as the crow flies, a manic day out but great great fun, too old to play now I hurt too much for too long,
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Hi DM exactly the Atherstone one is 5 miles from me, as the crow flies, a manic day out but great great fun, too old to play now I hurt too much for too long,
Sounds like a good laugh actually.... assuming there aren't too many of the bigger boys there lol
Darrell.
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Well there are i'm afraid, and as a clue I used to get sin binned for when playing deck hockey in the Royal Navy and there only one rule you can't hit around the head..! So think of a Rugby scrum with no rules and your there.!
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Well there are i'm afraid, and as a clue I used to get sin binned for when playing deck hockey in the Royal Navy and there only one rule you can't hit around the head..! So think of a Rugby scrum with no rules and your there.!
I've seen TV footage of it. Not dissimilar to Murderball that we used tom 'play' at school lol
Darrell.
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Well there are i'm afraid, and as a clue I used to get sin binned for when playing deck hockey in the Royal Navy and there only one rule you can't hit around the head..! So think of a Rugby scrum with no rules and your there.!
I've seen TV footage of it. Not dissimilar to Murderball that we used tom 'play' at school lol
Darrell.
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I've seen TV footage of it. Not dissimilar to Murderball that we used tom 'play' at school lol
Darrell.
Sorry for the double post- no idea what the hell happened..... o_o
Darrell.
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Not forgetting that everyone carried a knife in those days........ :o
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the lunacy of it all
The apparent lunacy of folkloric local traditions can be a heated (and sometimes political) debate :D
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There would be rules, although what they were is not readily apparent and were probably agreed on the day. Normal laws would be still in force though, but where the line between deliberate murder, manslaughter and misadventure fell, would be up to the jury... many of whom may have been players themselves.
Finally of course there is the legal fallout from Sunday matches... it was illegal to play football and other 'games' instead of the compulsory archery sessions for those required to practice with a bow.
;)
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There would be rules, although what they were is not readily apparent and were probably agreed on the day. Normal laws would be still in force though, but where the line between deliberate murder, manslaughter and misadventure fell, would be up to the jury... many of whom may have been players themselves.
Finally of course there is the legal fallout from Sunday matches... it was illegal to play football and other 'games' instead of the compulsory archery sessions for those required to practice with a bow.
;)
I know what I'd be practising! Never have been a fan of Football :)
Darrell.
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@ Arlequ'in - archery for interest
It was only illegal if the Sheriff and his Sergeants had found the land, had erected the range and the targets and you did not turn up.
A little known law.
Martin
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...and those places are still called Butts.
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Very interesting
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Suppose it all beats chasing after a large cheese rolling down a very steep hill ;) lol.
Went to have a look at Haxey in the early 90's when i was still very fit but after seeing the massive muscle-bound lunatics who had turned up to 'play' i soon decided to watch instead of getting involved lol
A footnote to the football game in Lincs a friend was renovating a 18th Century house which had once been an Inn near Lincoln about ten years back and removed an old panel wall and he found a list of players from such a game and the score.
Imagine booze and 'Dutch Courage' would add to the flavour of any match.
Another local very old tradition in Lincs i did take part in when i was young was a tug of war across the river Brant and the team that lost were thrown into the shallow river by the victors but they first had to run across the river and grab members of the team that lost. I was on the winning side...it was a good laugh and everyone got wet in the process and then off to the pub. The river was the parish boundry between two villages and imagine such games may have very ancient origins
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I am pretty sure with useful input from the guys on here....we could have a great set of rules, I'm not interested in the knockers the armchair warriors but I am in guys who want to really :Dhelp.
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Suppose it all beats chasing after a large cheese rolling down a very steep hill Wink Laugh.
http://www.soglos.com/sport-outdoor/27837/Gloucestershire-Cheese-Rolling
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Check out Mob Football, Folk Football,Shrovetide Football and Hug Ball and there are a quite a few references online and in county archives. Imagine there are a lot of other traditional games that were played at the various turns of the year and at the seaonal change festivals when people got together to make merry, let off steam and celebrate. The ball in these football games could be an inflated animal bladder, made from leather or even wood and in a lot of games they could be carried, kicked and/or thrown and normally consisted of large teams from various parishes or areas but more formal games with 10 players aside were being played by the late Medieval period in some areas. Some of the games had set rules and were highly regulated but others were or often became free for all bashes. I will have a good look round to see what information i can find that may be of use to you but have not got a clue about rule writing.
All the best Darren :)
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Interesting stuff Darren :)
It can look weird now but in old times there was certainly a community interest (or whatever words I should write about it if English was my first language) in such events and it certainly helped people to have a good time and feel happy together. So it can help us to understand some of their life. And when people still do it now it also keeps some community feelings.
I reacted on this thread because this discussion often happens in Brittany: some people say that reproducing old-time events is too old-fashioned; but other people say that it can bring people together, including people who were not born here, and even people who were born in other continents but are happy to take part in old traditional local events now that they live here - even if these events seem a bit lunatic.
OOooops sorry I don't want to highjack the thread :D
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'Medieval football' is still practiced in some of the smaller, regional stadiums in Brazil. Many have a moat, a curtain wall and are patrolled by armour clad 'knights' from the local PM shock battalions, complete with shields and maces (ok, they're enormous riot sticks not maces). Often outside the venue, the scene is completed by the presence of cavalry. All in the interests of fan and player security. On occasion, all this fails to meet its objectives and then things can get very medieval. That would make for an interesting game. :)
Those of you venturing to Brazil for the WC will, alas, miss much of the atmosphere and most of the new stadiums have dispensed with the fortifications.
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I am not knocking traditional games and agree totally that these events in the past like the present would have brought people together and given strength to community identity.
In periods when a lot of the people were bound to lords and masters, their work and duties, the land and to a very large extent the church periodic festivals or special set days with games would have been a great way to bring the whole community together and to let off steam.
These games would have also allowed people to settle scores, slights and grudges that could form inside and between neighbouring communities without the need of fighting with weapons and the very real chance of a lot of people being killed or badly injured.
I really like the idea of these football games being brought to the table top and helping to bring alive largely forgotten aspects of our past and giving gamers the chance to play exciting games set in the Medieval period without masses of longbows and knights clad in armour slugging it out with each other to the bitter end.
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We should organise an annual LAF traditional football game.... for real! lol
I wonder how many of us would survive the experience :o :D
Darrell.
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We should organise an annual LAF traditional football game.... for real! lol
I wonder how many of us would survive the experience :o :D
We have Troll Ball matches organized by LARP players near here, it is less dangerous, and it is fun to watch ...but certainly not traditional !
...although they are doing it once or twice a year, since many years now in the same village, so perhaps it will become traditional some day lol
(http://www.ouest-france.fr/sites/default/files/styles/image-article-detail/public/2013/09/30/un-jeu-de-role-medieval-fantastique-avec-le-kaotic-trollball.jpg)
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We have Troll Ball matches organized by LARP players near here, it is less dangerous, and it is fun to watch ...but certainly not traditional !
...although they are doing it once or twice a year, since many years now in the same village, so perhaps it will become traditional some day lol
(http://www.ouest-france.fr/sites/default/files/styles/image-article-detail/public/2013/09/30/un-jeu-de-role-medieval-fantastique-avec-le-kaotic-trollball.jpg)
Which one's the Troll? lol
Darrell.
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Which one's the Troll? lol
The ball. :D :)
(which must be brought behind the opponent goal line)
(http://www.argad-bzh.fr/heb/tete-de-troll.jpg)
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The ball. :D :)
(which must be brought behind the opponent goal line)
(http://www.argad-bzh.fr/heb/tete-de-troll.jpg)
lol Bonkers! lol
Darrell.
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Superb stuff Patrice 8) and maybe it will become a lasting tradition
Here is a bit of data for English Medieval football i have managed to find.
The evidence for Anglo-Saxon football type games is very scant and a game that is supposed to have involved kicking a Danes head as a ball is now thought to be a myth.
One of the first documented accounts of football comes from London and dates back to 1170.
During the late 12TH Century every trade in London had its own team and the game was called "Ball" or "Gameball" and every part of the body was allowed to be used during the game if the players wished.
Goals in these games were sometimes miles apart and compliants of disturbance and mayhem caused by players during these games was recorded.
Women only games were also known and sometimes teams of married women played against teams of unmarried women. Games were also played between unmarried and married men in some areas.
Edward II, Edward III and Edward IV amongst other monarchs all sought bans of the sport and they often considered that football was time and energy wasted when men could be using the bow or gaining bow practice.
The game of Mob Football was frowned upon by many in the higher levels of society as they saw it as having un/non-Christian values and compliants were made that merchants and trade had been disturbed in some towns by unregulated games. Mob Football could involve hundreds of players per team/side and often had little in the way of rules or regulations.
People often broke enforced football bans and were arrested and fined for doing so.
In some parts of Norfolk a form of football was known as Camp Ball and areas of land were given by nobles to play it on and these may be considered the first known football pitches but they most likely looked nothing like the modern football pitch.
Between 1314 and 1666 over 30 bans of football games were attempted by both monarchs and local councils but these were ignored by a lot of rural populations.
Goals could be a marker at the end of a village or town or an agreed area of the town or village and to get the ball to that point or past it would mean a goal had been scored or that the game was over. Goals could also be a church in the next village or nearby town parish and the ball had to end up inside the church or be put through a window or door in order for the goal to count or bring an end to a game.
The Church was not always totally against football and grants or awards of money are recorded having been given to players. At least one of these awards is known to have been made even though the crown had banned the game at the time.
Football games of many different variations are also known to have be played in other parts of Europe during the Medieval period. Parts of Italy, Scotland and Russia are all known to have football type games during the period.
The first reference to Soccer or a football game played just using the feet comes from Cawston in Nottinghamshire and is dated to the period 1481-1500.
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Interesting stuff dm.
The "soule" or "sioule" game was still played in many French villages in the 19th century and is believed to be related to medieval football/rugby. And I have still heard the same name "sioule" told about unformal ball games played without much rules - some years ago.
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...and then there is.....
The Wall Game
It is not known exactly when the Eton Wall Game was first played, but the first recorded game was in 1766. The first of the big St Andrew’s Day matches — between the Collegers and the Oppidans — was probably in 1844. The rules must obviously have been more or less agreed by then, but they were not actually printed and published until five years later.
The rules have been revised from time to time since 1849, but the game has remained essentially the same. The field of play is a fairly narrow strip, about five metres wide, running alongside a not quite straight brick wall, built in 1717 and about 110 metres from end to end. As in all forms of football, each side tries to get the ball down to the far end and then score. Players are not allowed to handle the ball, not allowed to let any part of their bodies except feet and hands touch the ground, not allowed to strike or hold their opponents, and there are also exceedingly strict ‘offside’ rules (no passing back and no playing in front); apart from that, almost anything goes.
Each phase of play starts with a ‘bully’, when about six of the ten players from each side form up against the wall and against each other, the ball is rolled in, and battle is joined. The player in possession of the ball will normally be on all fours, with the ball at his feet or under his knees. Players on his own side will attempt to support him, to establish themselves in a position where he can pass the ball to them, or to disrupt the opposition. Likewise, players on the other side will attempt to obstruct his progress, to force him down, to gain possession of the ball themselves. Occasionally the ball becomes ‘loose’ and a player may be able to kick it out of play: the next bully is then formed opposite where the ball stops or is stopped — quite unlike what happens in soccer or rugby.
At each end of the wall is a special area known as ‘calx’. When play reaches this area, the rules alter slightly (passing back becomes legal, for example) and the attacking side can score. The attackers try to raise the ball off the ground and against the wall, and having done so to touch it with the hand. They then shout “Got it!” and if the umpire is satisfied that all is correct he shouts “Shy!” and awards them a ‘shy’, worth one point. The attackers can now attempt to throw a ‘goal’ which would bring them an extra nine points (the goals are a garden door at one end and a tree at the other). Shies are relatively common, perhaps half a dozen a year, but goals are very uncommon — the last on St Andrew’s Day was in 1909.
The Eton Wall Game is exceptionally exhausting and is far more skilful than might appear to the uninitiated. The skill consists in the remorseless application of pressure and leverage as one advances inch by painful inch through a seemingly impenetrable mass of opponents. Few sports offer less to the spectator, although St Andrew’s Day has become much more spectator-friendly recently.
The College and Oppidan teams practise throughout the Michaelmas Half in preparation for St Andrew’s Day, playing against scratch teams composed mainly of Masters, Old Etonians, and other boys. Come the Lent half, the younger Oppidans get a chance to play: D Wall and E Wall play once a week, practising in the early weeks and then participating in a series of matches (the most serious of which is E Wall versus Chamber Wall, the College equivalent team), and about 40 boys in F are introduced to the game.
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and some still wonder why Eton gets poor press at times lol Scary stuff
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...and no goals in 104 years! :'(