Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => Colonial Adventures => Topic started by: Dewbakuk on February 15, 2014, 12:37:57 AM
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Evening all,
I was in North Star this afternoon talking to Nick and I had a look at the new NWF British figures (second Afghan War). I'll certainly be building a force. :)
I also saw the dollies for the Indian/Sikh troops and there was something that instantly leaped out at me as 'wrong'. This then lead to internet searches, looking through books and a phone call to Mike Owen and some emailed pics from books back and forth :D
End result of which was............ uncertainty on all sides! So I figured I'd ask you guys as I know we have a few knowledgeable types here.
It's down to tunics/coats and guns. What was the standard for Indian troops?
(http://images.indiebound.com/754/452/9780850452754.jpg)
I thought it was the tunic worn by the Sikh soldier at the front, but Mike thought it was more like the standard jacket worn by the British troops. I can find evidence for both... Anyone suggest a good reference for them? Other than the Osprey.
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I thought it was the tunic worn by the Sikh soldier at the front, but Mike thought it was more like the standard jacket worn by the British troops. I can find evidence for both... Anyone suggest a good reference for them? Other than the Osprey.
Plynkes. :)
Without railroading the thread, could some light be shed on their turban and puttees colors as well please? I have seen red, black, blue and striped turbans from different sources.
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Plynkes. :)
lol
Yeah, I did consider just sending him a PM :)
Colours etc is also important but let's make sure the figures are right first :)
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Can you be more specific about the precise period and/ or type? Are we to presume 2nd Afghan War? The reason I say so is that uniform type varied considerably from one part of India ro another and varied according to the time period.
Mollo has depictions and detailed descriptions across the whole timeframe of the Indian Army. If the sculptor isn't utilising Mollo, there's something awry.
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Can you be more specific about the precise period and/ or type? Are we to presume 2nd Afghan War?
If you read my post you wouldn't need to presume anything ;)
Is this the Mollo book? The description seems to imply it only goes to the mid 19thC, is this not the case?
http://www.biblio.com/details.php?dcx=642354497&aid=frg&utm_source=google&utm_medium=product&utm_campaign=feed-details
Edit: Well I found that Mollo book for a good price and also the Barthorp 'Pictorial Review' for a reasonable one so I've ordered them. For my own interest if nothing else :)
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Just got time for a quickie.... Saturday morning and a lot to do and all that....
Michael Barthorpe, The Frontier Ablaze, W&G is great for 1897-98. don't know exactly how useful it would be for the earlier conflicts in Afghanistan(?)
It's usually available at most wargames shows from the many book sellers that attend.
Plynkes?
Darrell.
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Yes, that's the book, it actually covers the Indian Army from the 18th C to independence, so no it covers much more than the mid 19th C.
Now had you read my response, you might have taken the inference that it's a complex subject. Native troops were usually dressed in a fashon peculiar or particular to the old, abolished presidencies. So there were different styles for troops from Bengal, Bombay and Madras. Then you have regional variations, like Punjabi units, Baluchis or Ghurkas and then individual variations. You have to remember that the Indian Army arose from several armies, not one.
Taking the broadest brush to the topic, Bengali regiments for the period, nominally wore what was inaccurately described as a 'zouave jacket' in the period in question. It bore very little resemblance to the French or American version, it was more like a shortish red tunic with a central panel in the facing colour. This was the dress uniform. It was typically but not universally worn with a turban but some Bengali regiments retained the old kilmarnock cap until quite late in the century. For field service typically a plain red frock was worn.
Then you have the Punjabi regiments, who wore drab or khaki uniforms, throughout the period, usually with facing colours on collar, cuff and or shoulder straps.
As you seem to be interested, primarily in Sikh regiments, I'll confine my answer to the Bengali and PFF regiments. In short you are looking at serge frocks for most of the units involved.
To do the topic justice though your best bet is to locate a copy of Mollo.
Hope that helps.
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Barthorpe is excellent but the field uniforms had changed dramatically by the 1890s so not especially useful for the 2nd Afghan War.
Plynkes and Arthur are probably the best sources of info on this forum.
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I thought this would be an easy "smock" answer...
However, a quick look at the pictures in Barthorp's North West Frontier book, and most of the pictures actually show the frock coat.
The exception is 45th (Rattray's Sikhs). They appear to have a smock...
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From what I can gather from Mollo, generally speaking once khaki was on the scene the short kurta or blouse was field service order, and the (fully buttoned) tunic was drab review order. That's why you'll see both on images from troops from the same time frame (the posed photos of "types' in Mollo often show two chaps side by side from the same regiment, one in each). The kurta would seem more common in photos, but this kind of thing could be down to the whim of the commanding officer, I guess.
The war straddles a period of transition, when the field service order officially moved from scarlet to khaki. Some images from this time show Indian troops still wearing dark blue trousers, but coupled with a khaki kurta. This mixing of old with new seems to have been evident among both British and Indian troops in the early stages of the war.
You probably have to account for variations across a large force with many diverse unit traditions and peoples spread across what until recently had been three separate armies. Regiments such as the Gurkhas for instance always seem to have done their own thing. Bombay Infantry seem to have worn a tunic, Mollo doesn't mention kurtas for them (yet I have seen a photo of a Baluchi infantryman of the Bombay army wearing a kurta, so who the fuck knows?).
You also mention guns, which for the 2nd Afghan war would be the Snider-Enfield. The Indian troops only got Martinis when the Brits gave them up, which as I recall began at the end of the 80s/begininng of the 90s.
And you chaps are all making a big mistake calling me out as some kind of expert. I know bugger-all about the Indian Army. I'm sure Carlos knows more than me about the topic. :)
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I am fairly well read up on the topic, even though I have had focus on 20th century, i.e. organization and uniform after the Kitchener reforms when battle dress became more uniform. I think the Osprey book is rather elliptic in its description of uniforms. Mollo's The Indian Army is good, some great contemporary colour plates. I also use Barthorp's The Nort-West Frontier for its many cool photos.
Anyhoo, my strong impression is that the kurta (sometimes buttoned to from neck to waist) was predominantly used by native Indian troops. Picture evidence suggest that these were worn well into the 1930s beside the British army standard issue tropical shirt/blouse.
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it is a great pity that the Indian Army has been neglected, they were possibly some of the most varied,colourful and battle experienced regiments of the British Empire. The only other two reasonably accessible references that have not been mentioned is another title by Michael Barthorpe for Osprey - Indian Infantry Regiments 1860-1914 and W.Y.Carman's Indian Army Uniforms(not a lot of detail in this of campaign uniform). Military Modelling had an article in one of their "Christmas" annuals in the early 80's which had a nice colour plate(I think done by the Fostens) of both British and Indian troops. I would not waste time tracking down either of the Osprey titles on the Gurkha has both of them are very very sparse on the 2nd Afghan War.
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Carlos, I wasn't being flippant, I said it was for 2nd Afghan War in the first line :)
I appreciate it's not an easy subject, hence why I'm here asking the questions. I'm sure everyone would prefer an accurate figure range and that's what Mike want's to deliver. In actuality I think Mike was intending to start with a Madras contingent. Although I'm currently sat in an airport departure lounge so I can't double check that.
The Sikh pic was just the easiest way to show the tunic, not mostly interested in the Sikh troops, fully interested in all of it. Personally I'd be interested in Bengal troops :)
When I get chance I shall talk to Nick and check that Mike has the referenced books. If not he can borrow mine.
Cheers guys, this has been very helpful, and Plynkes, that was exactly what I wanted to know on the rifles.
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The Sikh pic was just the easiest way to show the tunic, not mostly interested in the Sikh troops, fully interested in all of it. Personally I'd be interested in Bengal troops :)
Plenty of Sikhs in the Bengal Infantry (including the chap in your picture - 30th Punjab Infantry was a Bengal Regiment), the two aren't mutually exclusive. :)
Edit: Just to clarify "Bengal" means it is part of the army of the Bengal Presidency, it tells you nothing of the ethnic origin of the troops, who could and did come from all over the place.
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Just to clarify "Bengal" means it is part of the army of the Bengal Presidency, it tells you nothing of the ethnic origin of the troops, who could and did come from all over the place.
I understand Sikh/Hindu/Muslim in the same regiment were differentiated by the uniform and in different sub-units?
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I understand Sikh/Hindu/Muslim in the same regiment were differentiated by the uniform and in different sub-units?
It's complicated. :)
That's something that changed over time and varied with the three presidencies, so it's hard to make general statements. After the Mutiny it was thought that mixing up of classes and castes was a good idea, but there was also a trend within the Bengal regiments* towards the "class-regiment" (which is as you describe - each company of the regiment being made up of a distinct homogeneous group). But there were also many regiments that were entirely homogeneous.
After the mutiny and as the century wore on, the prevailing view of the British was that the so-called "Martial Races" (the hardy ruffians of North West India and the frontier) were a far more desirable commodity as soldiers than the Hindustanis. So increasingly you find Sikhs, Dogras, Jats, Punjabi "Mussulmans", Gurkhas, Afridis and other northern races being recruited in the armies of all three presidencies, gradually replacing many of the Southern Indians (except as sappers, their expertise in that field was well-regarded) and often eventually changing their designation to reflect their new make-up.
*They were always very faith and caste-conscious. It's no coincidence that of the three armies it was the Bengal Army that mutinied, while the other two largely remained loyal. The attitude with the latter was that one's faith was "put in your knapsack" when you joined up, and you focused your loyalty on the regiment rather than your caste-clique.
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It's complicated. :)
isn't that the fun of it? ;)
THX for the elaboration
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TA Heathcote's "The Indian Army" has quite a good section on class composition and includes a breakdown of class by regiment for the Bengal Army in 1864 and 1884.
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Hi guys, thanks for all the feedback. I thought I better chip in as there have been some crossed wires about these figures I have been working on. The figures that caused the worry are the ones I was making to represent the Bombay and Bengali troops. So they had gaiters and short jackets and snyder enfields. I have been working mainly from the Mollo book on this and to say they're complex is an understatement. Lots of doubts and second guessing so in the end I decided to do a few packs in the 'fancier' uniforms and then the rest in the khurta (sappers etc). If you have any information on mountain battery uniforms that would be a gig help too.
Regards.
Mike
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Forgive me if I seem a novice in these things,
Many years ago I attempted NWF wargaming but was put off by the dearth of accurate figures. I always thought the main gap in ranges in both 25/28mm and 15mm were not the 'regulars' necessarily but representations of the Punjab Frontier Force - usually described as wearing poshteens and less formal wear, but with miltary belts, ammo pouches etc. I hope this has/will be rectified...
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The first Frontier Force figures are done. I just need to do some command and variants of them.
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The first Frontier Force figures are done. I just need to do some command and variants of them.
Yahoo!!! I cannot want to see them!!! :o ;D ;D ;D :o
Are you allowed to divulge what time scale we're looking at for the various releases?
Darrell.
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Just to resurrect the thread, I'm looking forward to seeing these figures released.
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The Simkin Plates, I think from the London Illustrated News are quite useful. Admittely these are for 1905 but illustrate the basic variations. The Indian Army website also has a series of links to various uniform plates. What I have not yet tracked down is a museum. Might be worth looking for regimental museums though.
Graham
Delhi