Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => Back of Beyond => Topic started by: juergen c. olk on 26 March 2014, 05:15:50 PM
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Stumbled across this beautiful picture of Czech legion cavalry in Siberia 1919.
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wow, very parade style and old fashioned. Stylish and shiny.
does anyone make 20th C miniatures with that kind of pelisse style?
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Good question. I have no idea.Unless you convert North star 1866- Austrian-Hussars.
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well, thank You for making me aware of this range!
wow!
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How cool would they look on a BoB table???? :-*
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(http://i1120.photobucket.com/albums/l484/ths3/2ndCavalryRegimentSiberiangallauniform_zpse0209ba0.jpg) (http://s1120.photobucket.com/user/ths3/media/2ndCavalryRegimentSiberiangallauniform_zpse0209ba0.jpg.html)
(http://i1120.photobucket.com/albums/l484/ths3/06_zpsa9abcdbd.jpg) (http://s1120.photobucket.com/user/ths3/media/06_zpsa9abcdbd.jpg.html)
(http://i1120.photobucket.com/albums/l484/ths3/07_zpsab431ba8.jpg) (http://s1120.photobucket.com/user/ths3/media/07_zpsab431ba8.jpg.html)
(http://i1120.photobucket.com/albums/l484/ths3/tjekkeisibirien_zps5df21782.jpg) (http://s1120.photobucket.com/user/ths3/media/tjekkeisibirien_zps5df21782.jpg.html)
(http://i1120.photobucket.com/albums/l484/ths3/Defileof2cavalryregimentfordelegationinKljukvenne_zps9568e82c.jpg) (http://s1120.photobucket.com/user/ths3/media/Defileof2cavalryregimentfordelegationinKljukvenne_zps9568e82c.jpg.html)
(http://i1120.photobucket.com/albums/l484/ths3/sector20360044_zps4790147d.jpg) (http://s1120.photobucket.com/user/ths3/media/sector20360044_zps4790147d.jpg.html)
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Awesome follow up photos thanx.
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Great plates and photographs. However on the photographs the shirt is definitely a darker colour than the pelisse, which looks a similar shade to the breeches. Any thoughts?
S
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finer parade dress greyish cloth vs khaki field-shirt?
attila and pants are a different shade and texture too
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From a Czech specialist on the period, Petr Starosta, I have got some corrections on the ”Czechs dressed like hussars in Siberia 1919”.
The shown fellows are not in Siberia, but back home in Czechoslovakia 1918-1919, probaply taking part in the Czech-Hungarian War 1918/19.
They are most likely in Sokol uniforms.
The Czech Sokol ”Gymnastic” groups were weapon trained, along the lines of the Boy Scout Movement, and took up arms, just like in Poland 1918-19, as Czechoslovakia of course had not is own national army just after WW1.
Volunteer Sokol units made up almost 50% of all Czech troops in the beginning of the Czech-Hungarian War 1918/19 – and fought in their Sokol uniforms.
Petr also points to the medal worn by the officer, which seems to be the Czech Cross Medal, which was awarded for bravery in the mentioned war. See picture.
Somehow the French on
http://www.ecpad.fr/la-mission-de-la-spca-1918-1919
http://www.ecpad.fr/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/spca.pdf
have got something wrong, when describing and dating the photos. The other photos in the series are from Siberia.
(http://i1120.photobucket.com/albums/l484/ths3/sokol1_zps808916d0.jpg) (http://s1120.photobucket.com/user/ths3/media/sokol1_zps808916d0.jpg.html)
Sokol uniforms
(http://i1120.photobucket.com/albums/l484/ths3/CzechCrossforbraveryintheCzech-HungarianWar1918-1919_zpsae0207c1.jpg) (http://s1120.photobucket.com/user/ths3/media/CzechCrossforbraveryintheCzech-HungarianWar1918-1919_zpsae0207c1.jpg.html)
Czech Cross for bravery in the Czech-Hungarian War 1918-1919
(http://i1120.photobucket.com/albums/l484/ths3/RCW_czechcavalry_zps815578f9.jpg) (http://s1120.photobucket.com/user/ths3/media/RCW_czechcavalry_zps815578f9.jpg.html)
Czech cavalry uniform in RCW
(http://i1120.photobucket.com/albums/l484/ths3/RCW_czechcavalry2_zps7e4a1ba4.jpg) (http://s1120.photobucket.com/user/ths3/media/RCW_czechcavalry2_zps7e4a1ba4.jpg.html)
Czech cavalry uniform in RCW
(http://i1120.photobucket.com/albums/l484/ths3/RCW_czechcavalry_flag_2_zps88cb9f93.jpg) (http://s1120.photobucket.com/user/ths3/media/RCW_czechcavalry_flag_2_zps88cb9f93.jpg.html)
Czech standard in RCW
(http://i1120.photobucket.com/albums/l484/ths3/RCW_czechcavalry_flag_zpsc5a29621.jpg) (http://s1120.photobucket.com/user/ths3/media/RCW_czechcavalry_flag_zpsc5a29621.jpg.html)
Czech standard in RCW
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Damn there French eyes for teasing me. Thankyou for the update and corrections and the great photos thankyou. Still cool photo even if wrong.
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Great research, those it's blown my romantic notion of 'gay' hussars in the Siberian steppe. And I've ordered the North Star 1866 range cavalry. So they're going to be appearing, even if it's bollox! Thanks
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And I still don't think we've nailed that uniform colour in the plate. It looks like khaki jacket and breeches and a primary coloured shirt. Red often appears a solid colour in b&w. Any better ideas???
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Great research, those it's blown my romantic notion of 'gay' hussars in the Siberian steppe. And I've ordered the North Star 1866 range cavalry. So they're going to be appearing, even if it's bollox! Thanks
Damn-I was hoping you would commission some-now I have go "Czech" out the Northstar range
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I love this obscure stuff (to the English speaking world anyway). Great pictures.
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I love this obscure stuff (to the English speaking world anyway). Great pictures.
Oh yeah, me too!!
These are just Wow.
As these are unavailable I needn't feel bad I don't have any...
So why do I?
Valerik
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...."And I still don't think, we've nailed that uniform colour in the plate."
And I think, it can not be done much better.
The uniform or rather "parade/festivitas dress, still used today, goes back to the founding of the gymnastic and national Sokol society in Czechoslovakia ca. 1860. The society got branches all over Eastern Europe and still exists today. Around 1900 it started becoming militant in most countries, preparing for the coming war along the same lines as the new Boy Scout organizations.
Many of the younger, trained Scout and Sokol members became the officer cadres in the many new East European states formed after WW1
Uniforms are in the same colours, but have small national differences in headdresses and such, and of course especially in the women's dresses.
Red shirt and greyish trousers and coat for the men.
Mounted units were rather rare and only for "les jeunesse doré".
Here are some pictures after a fast Google search and such.
(http://i1120.photobucket.com/albums/l484/ths3/1880Group_of_Sokols_zps7436c024.jpg) (http://s1120.photobucket.com/user/ths3/media/1880Group_of_Sokols_zps7436c024.jpg.html)
1880 group of Czech Sokol members
(http://i1120.photobucket.com/albums/l484/ths3/sokolkrakow_zpsad536917.jpg) (http://s1120.photobucket.com/user/ths3/media/sokolkrakow_zpsad536917.jpg.html)
Sokol Krakow
(http://i1120.photobucket.com/albums/l484/ths3/Werschler-Sokol_zps72127acd.jpg) (http://s1120.photobucket.com/user/ths3/media/Werschler-Sokol_zps72127acd.jpg.html)
Werschler Sokol
(http://i1120.photobucket.com/albums/l484/ths3/DelegatesofFalconfromLvivFrancisFerdinandandDobias-fatherandson-attheunveilingofGrunwaldMonumentinKrakowonJuly151910_zpse47fd163.jpg) (http://s1120.photobucket.com/user/ths3/media/DelegatesofFalconfromLvivFrancisFerdinandandDobias-fatherandson-attheunveilingofGrunwaldMonumentinKrakowonJuly151910_zpse47fd163.jpg.html)
Krakow Sokol 1910
(http://i1120.photobucket.com/albums/l484/ths3/1912_Herceg_Novi_Srpski_Sokol_zpsa5f154d1.jpg) (http://s1120.photobucket.com/user/ths3/media/1912_Herceg_Novi_Srpski_Sokol_zpsa5f154d1.jpg.html)
Herzegovina 1912
(http://i1120.photobucket.com/albums/l484/ths3/SOKol-LWoW-KLAMRA_zpsff95d962.jpg) (http://s1120.photobucket.com/user/ths3/media/SOKol-LWoW-KLAMRA_zpsff95d962.jpg.html)
Lwow Sokol
(http://i1120.photobucket.com/albums/l484/ths3/2014-05-17_135244_zpsdd8513c4.jpg) (http://s1120.photobucket.com/user/ths3/media/2014-05-17_135244_zpsdd8513c4.jpg.html)
(http://i1120.photobucket.com/albums/l484/ths3/sokolilapach_zpsf47fd063.jpg) (http://s1120.photobucket.com/user/ths3/media/sokolilapach_zpsf47fd063.jpg.html)
(http://i1120.photobucket.com/albums/l484/ths3/czechs%20for%20lead%20adventure/800x800_legie1_zps0698cb11.jpg) (http://s1120.photobucket.com/user/ths3/media/czechs%20for%20lead%20adventure/800x800_legie1_zps0698cb11.jpg.html)
Czech Sokol
(http://i1120.photobucket.com/albums/l484/ths3/2014-05-18_003023_zps4f84e8f2.jpg) (http://s1120.photobucket.com/user/ths3/media/2014-05-18_003023_zps4f84e8f2.jpg.html)
(http://i1120.photobucket.com/albums/l484/ths3/prag1932_zpsd338038f.jpg) (http://s1120.photobucket.com/user/ths3/media/prag1932_zpsd338038f.jpg.html)
Prag 1932
(http://i1120.photobucket.com/albums/l484/ths3/poznansokol1932_zpsb02d0760.jpg) (http://s1120.photobucket.com/user/ths3/media/poznansokol1932_zpsb02d0760.jpg.html)
Poznan 1932
(http://i1120.photobucket.com/albums/l484/ths3/ThefirstflagofSokolwaspaintedonsilkbythefamousCzechpainterJosefManes_zps2e89b6fb.jpg) (http://s1120.photobucket.com/user/ths3/media/ThefirstflagofSokolwaspaintedonsilkbythefamousCzechpainterJosefManes_zps2e89b6fb.jpg.html)
The first flag of Czech Sokol, if Ignatieff needs some inspiration!
(http://i1120.photobucket.com/albums/l484/ths3/205ae0b3e810cc5ebb6b914820d4aa1f_zpse359e857.jpg) (http://s1120.photobucket.com/user/ths3/media/205ae0b3e810cc5ebb6b914820d4aa1f_zpse359e857.jpg.html)
(http://i1120.photobucket.com/albums/l484/ths3/czechsokolposter_zps839fc5ee.jpg) (http://s1120.photobucket.com/user/ths3/media/czechsokolposter_zps839fc5ee.jpg.html)
(http://i1120.photobucket.com/albums/l484/ths3/62b541f2e0175ce43ac924355ed01c87_zps6742af04.jpg) (http://s1120.photobucket.com/user/ths3/media/62b541f2e0175ce43ac924355ed01c87_zps6742af04.jpg.html)
(http://i1120.photobucket.com/albums/l484/ths3/sokolponan007_zps731a993f.jpg) (http://s1120.photobucket.com/user/ths3/media/sokolponan007_zps731a993f.jpg.html)
(http://i1120.photobucket.com/albums/l484/ths3/sokol1920_zps8796008f.jpg) (http://s1120.photobucket.com/user/ths3/media/sokol1920_zps8796008f.jpg.html)
(http://i1120.photobucket.com/albums/l484/ths3/day3-1919b_zps82bab0a6.jpg) (http://s1120.photobucket.com/user/ths3/media/day3-1919b_zps82bab0a6.jpg.html)
(http://i1120.photobucket.com/albums/l484/ths3/Sokol4_zpsf407ad48.jpg) (http://s1120.photobucket.com/user/ths3/media/Sokol4_zpsf407ad48.jpg.html)
(http://i1120.photobucket.com/albums/l484/ths3/9b3eddba3a14f78f02bfc4083544e5aa_zps9b885f85.jpg) (http://s1120.photobucket.com/user/ths3/media/9b3eddba3a14f78f02bfc4083544e5aa_zps9b885f85.jpg.html)
I fully agree with Dr. Mathias.
The history of Eastern Europa and Russia to Vladivostok and down into Caucasus certainly is worth looking at.
Very colourful, sneeky and violent to a degree almost unheard of in the Western part.
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Forced to "disagree" with a reputable TS.
Look in the catalog as posted these photos from the French. These photos have common numbering and have one author. Most of these pictures made in Barnaul and, most likely, and this.
(http://f5.s.qip.ru/V4IuUnI9.png)
In these Czech horsemen - Russian cavalry equipment.
Cross on his chest officer quite similar to the Russian award - "George Cross ".
(http://dageron.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/flag_article/Orden_1.jpg)
As far as I know, the Czech army used Sleeve insignia only in Russia.
The building in the background of this photo has 3 flue pipe. I think , for the Czech Republic is too much. But in Siberia stove in every room of the big house - are not uncommon .
But so far no reliable documents the existence of such uniforms were found. However, participants in the memoirs of the war in Siberia sometimes referred Czech Hussars - but without any details.
Our researchers suggest that it is horse reconnaissance some of the Czech regiments.
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Cracking debate and great info. I reckon they are wearing red shirts and khaki breeches and pelisse. That's what I'll go for. Great stuff ts and Cuprum. Thanks!
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The colours seem correct, red and greyish khaki.
The dress is Sokol, not army
Both Cuprum and I can be correct :), as the Czechs in Siberia lived a quite "normal" life, when not fighting.
Many had wife and children with them. From Siberia also exist photos of Boy and Girl Scouts parading, so why not a detachment of Sokol's militant scouts? Without doubt, there have been normal Sokol cultural activities among the Czechs in Siberia.
I have sent the comments by Cuprum to Petr Starosta to hear, what he says.
To me the arm badge do not look military, no military collar patches, possibly no military cocarde or patch and certainly no military rank distinctions, but the medal could be Russian.
The shabraque is much too expensive to have been used in the field, but will look great on your table.
Rather confusing.
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I do not see any contradiction
it was the formative time of the Czech army, so in the beginning certain cavalry units could have been inspired by the strong Sokol tradition, at least for parading, before the actual cavalry regiments were formed and the official uniforms arrived trans Siberia
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Answer from Czechoslovakia:
I have sent these photos to the Czech army historical institute and lets see, if they can find some more info.
Regarding the architecture of the buildings in the photos: The fights between Czechs and Hungarians took place not in nowadays Czech Republic, but in eastern Slovakia and Ukraine. Where there is similar architecture as the Russian one.
Before the war were in Russia a lot of Czechs and they have created their own Sokol organisation there as well. But probably only the rich ones had enough money to purchase the same style Sokol uniform as was worn in Czechia. When war started, a lot of these people volunteered to the Russian army, and created the first units of the Czech Legion. Most probably they were wearing their Sokol uniform, when joining the russian army, but they have immediately received a standard Russian infantry uniform. All these volunteers, who joined the Russian army at 1914 till 1915 were transferred to infantry. So I cant imagine that they kept their Sokol uniforms for another few years while serving in Russian army as ordinary infantry. After 1917 the Czech Legion's ranks were filled only with POWs and they were equipped with Russian uniforms, which were generally available.
I will let you know, when I get more info from the army guys and meantime I will check the arm badge. I have somewhere at home a nice book with most of the arm badges used in Siberia.
You also might be interested in this book: http://www.nejlevnejsi-knihy.cz/kniha/ceskoslovensk-legie-v-rusku-1914-1920.html This is a first volume of a 4 book set, which will be published within the next few years. Top historians from the Czech army historical institute worked on it for several years and its really worth getting.
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I'll look forward to hearing Czech specialists ...
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This feels like a murder mystery,I think how this all started was that i found a cool picture,now we have Czech authorities on the job,this is awesome.
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Hey juergen, I see you are located in Omaha according to your avatar info. I was born and raised there, up until I left for grad school at 26.
I've been to many concerts at 'Sokol Hall' in South Omaha over the years (I was even in two art shows in the basement ;) ), I always thought it was just a Czech surname. I never knew anything about the military organizations in Europe. Very interesting!
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Yeah I did not know that either,the German -American Society used to do gymnastics there thru till the late sixties.
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Originally the Sokol Societies/Groups (Falcon Societies) were not militant, but cultural and gymnastic societies for nationalistic groups, first of all in Mid and Eastern Europe.
One has to remember that the 3 Imperial states, Russia, Austria and Germany, all controlled huge areas with many different nationalities intermixed with each other. No area consisted of just one homogen nationality. In Vilnius around 1920 for example 50% were Jews, the rest a mixture of Lithuanians, Poles, Germans and White Russians.
The Sokol wanted to strengthen local national identity through cultural activities, being Czech, Hungarian, Polish, Serb, Ukrainian or whatever one was.
In Germany (especially Prussia) and Russia such nationalistic societies were mistrusted, while Austria was more lenient and easy going.
The gymnastic part was so younger members also had something to assemble around. One has to remember, there was not much else to do in the spare time, while the elder could sit, talk and dream about old, glorious periods, when just their culture was mighty and rich.
In the Austrian area different rifle associations and shooting clubs were officially accepted and registered, but not all. Those, which were accepted, in for instance Tirol, Gallicia and Ukraine could even borrow rifles from the local Austrian garrison, only having to buy their own ammunition. The Austrians considered such an activity as positive and useful as volunteer forces, if war came. That certainly was not the perception in Russia nor in Prussia.
When the scout movement suddenly arrived through Baden Powell, it very soon spread to all countries in Europe, a sound soul in a sound body and all that, but most important it was something to do for all active boys. Similar had existed earlier, but here was a concept, which in reality was very close to military training for boys, not old enough for the real army.
One has to remember, in those days the national armies and army life was considered much more glamorous than today.
All political parties and societies, also Sokol, understood that if they did not have some scout activities, they could not get or keep new, young members. Gymnastics was not enough any-more.
Sokol was was in the beginning not so militant as others, but was then also forced to form regular Field Druzines (groups), if they wanted to keep their younger, active members.
As everybody expected an European war to break out from 1900-1910, especially between Austria and Russia, a lot of the many ethnic and political groups and societies became more and more militant.
I doubt very much, if Sokol of today has any military field training of their younger members.
Same goes for political parties of today and local shooting clubs.
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Latest from Czechoslovakia:
"I have checked the legionary arm badges and have not found any, which looks simillar to this. There is no evidence about arm badges, which were used in Slovakia so I can not check it.
I have also gone through all the legionary cavalryman pictures, which I have, and havent found any picture with a similar uniform."
So up to now 1-0 to Cuprum ;)
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We even seem able to determine the place of photography.
Picture taken between houses № 49 and № 51 on the street Pushkinskaya in Barnaul.
(http://f5.s.qip.ru/oZhWgcPJ.png)
(http://f6.s.qip.ru/oZhWgcPK.png)
(http://f5.s.qip.ru/oZhWgcPL.png)
If the date of photographing - indicated accurately - 15 June 1919., We can try to determine what kind of Czech military unit was in Barnaul that day. Probably - it Mounted reconnaissance of this military unit.
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Wow!,Impressive detective work,thanx.
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During this period, in Barnaul there was only one cavalry regiment - 2nd Cavalry Czechoslovak Regiment. On this day came a parade of troops, in which the regiment took part.
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Found another photo "Sokol" in Russia.
Photo taken in Vladivostok. Dated June 1, 1919.
(http://f6.s.qip.ru/7WXfIMnI.jpg)
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Latest from Czechoslovakia
"Thats very interesting :) At that time were at the line Mariinsk – Tomsk - Barnaul deployed 5th Czech Infrantry Regiment and 2nd Artillery Regiment. And the same time were in the same area also deployed Poles with 1st Infantry Regiment, one artillery battery from 5th Polish Artillery Regiment and one polish cavalry squadron. Unfortumately my source did no mention. to what unit belongs this polish cavalry. I will check these two czech units and will try to dig out more info about the Polish."
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interesting to note that Sokol was a Panslavic movement, so the uniform could be polish (yes, I know, chapka...)
also that Vladivostok is "russian"..... lol
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(http://i1120.photobucket.com/albums/l484/ths3/czechs%20for%20lead%20adventure/possiblysokolgirlscouts_zps17ad89a9.jpg) (http://s1120.photobucket.com/user/ths3/media/czechs%20for%20lead%20adventure/possiblysokolgirlscouts_zps17ad89a9.jpg.html)
These Czech girl scouts parading in Siberia (Barnaul?) are possibly from the Czech Sokol scout organization, proving the Czech Sokol also was active in Russia.
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This Russian Girl Scouts. In Barnaul, was women's gymnasium and these girls have participated in the parade on the occasion of celebratory day.