Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => The Second World War => Topic started by: The Dozing Dragon on 02 May 2014, 01:24:58 PM
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Unfortunately banned from purchases for now but these tempt me anyhow.....
(http://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0288/8306/products/WGB-WM-03-Last-Levy-c_1024x1024.jpg?v=1398941958)
(http://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0288/8306/products/WGB-WM-03-Last-Levy-b_1024x1024.jpg?v=1398941953)
(http://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0288/8306/products/WGB-WM-03-Last-Levy-a_1024x1024.jpg?v=1398941957)
Shop linky (http://store.warlordgames.com/products/last-levy-the-defence-of-berlin/)
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Those don't look half bad, would prefer a panzerschreck as opposed to the more fanciful luftfaust, nice to see it represented though.
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They are actually quite nice, especially the Hitlerjugend. Will definetly buy them to fill the ranks and replace a few of mine that don't look Volkssturm enough.
The Charlemagne SS look really good too!
(http://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0288/8306/products/WGB-SS-02-SS-Charlemagne-b_1024x1024.jpg?v=1398425303)
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They are actually quite nice, especially the Hitlerjugend. Will definetly buy them to fill the ranks and replace a few of mine that don't look Volkssturm enough.
The Charlemagne SS look really good too!
(http://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0288/8306/products/WGB-SS-02-SS-Charlemagne-b_1024x1024.jpg?v=1398425303)
Yup, they really look like they are in action.
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A good release for many reasons.
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A good release for many reasons.
Including the release of the D Day to Germany theatre book later this year no doubt :)
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These two sets look great,lots of characters here to add variation to existing units.
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I really like the Volkstrum. Lot's of character in the miniatures.
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I am quite surprised how much "love" there is on various forums for the Volksturm types - I think they are quite good but some of the heads seem oversize and the faces rather cartoony.
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I am quite surprised how much "love" there is on various forums for the Volksturm types - I think they are quite good but some of the heads seem oversize and the faces rather cartoony.
"rather cartoony" is an understatement. That said, Warlord have been going steadily more and more cartoony and hyper-active and gurning, gorilla faced with their figures.
I supported Bolt Action from before they were officially launched (heck, I even made some vehicle masters for them), and was initially thrilled when they were sold to Warlord, as the promise was for more releases and bigger ranges, as Si and Paul would not have to work on the design of the figures as well as the packing/shipping. Unfortunately Warlord started changing the sculpting style, becoming gradually more cartoon-like (go look at the old Commando or Warlord or Battle comics), and are now stylistically so different that I've given up buying from them, as the new figures look like caricatures. They consciously made this decision, in spite of feedback from a number of customers who don't like the new look. On top of that, they are slowly taking the older figures out of production as the "moulds deteriorate", then "remaster" them and replacing them with this inferior and incompatible stuff, so one can't even fill out the ranks with decent figures anymore.
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I'm in the market for some Volkssturm, but I have to say that these are going past the point of having character to being extreme caricatures in a cartoony style. Some of the sculpts are useable, others are so weird I'd just chuck them in the bin. I can't understand why they have gone for this look. Some of the helmets look totally wrong.
I got some of their Soviets in the post yesterday and whilst some figures were really very nice (with lots of character) others were like gargoyles with hideous gurning faces. Really very odd and more than a bit disappointing.
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I'm really not into political correctness but in HJ being a touchy subject in itself its beyond me why a Company deems it necessary to put a Kid in crosshairs on the Box Cover...
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Such a shame they've gone over the top with the these. Like others here I'm not into this excessive use of caricature. I would like some Volksturm but will need to look elsewhere I think.
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I'm really not into political correctness but in HJ being a touchy subject in itself its beyond me why a Company deems it necessary to put a Kid in crosshairs on the Box Cover...
They sell more to their US market that way.
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As with any figure sculpting style, there will always be a broad range of opinions from "love 'em", to "hate 'em", to "don't think much of 'em either way" as an in between. This said, count me personally in the "hate 'em" corner. The cartoon-ish looks, and exaggerated animation of motion that have become the Bolt Action line's design style makes me think of a SGT. ROCK comic book, and not of a miniature wargames table. :-[
David
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A few nice figures in there, but overall, +1 to the detractors of the cartoon style.
I bet the concept sketches looked good - and the ideas are good. Unfortunately, the execution is poor. Some of the helmets look completely wrong - and by the way, on schoolboys in shorts, steel helmets would look massively outsized. (Helmets not scaling neatly up and down in line with the head of the wearer).
I'm really not into political correctness but in HJ being a touchy subject in itself its beyond me why a Company deems it necessary to put a Kid in crosshairs on the Box Cover...
Because Warlord's marketing has long been a byword for crassness. Never forget this is the outfit who's promotional blurb brought you the 'sexy' Waffen SS a couple of years back (I believe they subsequently issued retractions and apologies), and on a later product launch bleated on about the glorious, undefeated German armies... In short, Warlord seem to have an unhealthy, tabloid fascination for all things WW2 German. Coupled with a laddish, 'It's your super, soaraway Sun' tone and style, this often makes for uncomfortable reading. Naff, puerile, and occasionally borderline offensive. Sorry to word it so strongly, but I find the whole approach repellent. So I no longer buy their products.
But they seem to keep on growing, so I guess they know their target market, and there are plenty of wargamers out there who go for this kind of schtick...
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Indeed. There appears to have been an earlier cut of the blurb which said something along the lines of 'Frenchmen fighting with the Germans against their common Bolshevik enemy' or something like that. Could have been lifted straight from Signal or perhaps the Daily Mail.
I have some of their British paras, the ones Paul Hicks sculpted. Very nice, their newer stuff is dreck. Their vehicles aren't bad although they are a little hit and miss QC wise and none of their resin kits that I have purchased to date has been a patch on JTFM, Company B or FoA. The one thing I will give them unstinting praise for is their plastic T-34 kit. That really is a superb little model.
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mixed release,
I agree they are a bit cartoonish. I agree that they have lost the style of the original Paul Hicks releases (but the, Paul Hick's sculpted, Chindits are good. I agree that I do not like them so much... I disagree they are inferior. Saldy labelling something we do not like as 'inferior' is tad extreme. They are different and probably aimed at a different target audience. If you read what mr. Priestly wrote on Wargames illustrated about Bolt Action (the game) you realize that is indeed a Commando comic book. I assume they had their reasons for the change and, despite the 'countless of contrary opinions' thread they had done their own market research. I do not see Warlord doing something they do not expect to generate revenue.
Well for several of the guy of the Charlemagne the Bolshevism was their common enemy (before you start to yell at me I am quite politically neutral... in Italy some consider me an awful right-winger... but some of my best friend are members of the Chinese Communist Party and I do not like Italian right wing political parties... so I have no stakes here, I just point out that the blurb was indeed correct). It is not different from the tabloid style of Flames of War (with the exception that everyone get those morale boosting speeches... I am sure they will do something similar for the Kempetai too... :? ). It is a style that attract a certain group of wargamer, the one who have been subjected to 40k racism... well it is time for a digression...
I like science fiction, I also play computer games, until recently in Italy we had a monthly magazine that beside giving us effective reviews of games was also giving us a free game title each issue. Once they gave one of the space marine games. I do not say no to a potentially good game and tried it. The game was pretty fun at moment, and certainly an AAA title... but the racism in every speech from a space marine was so much that I stopped to play and un-installed the game...
Well this is me, but there are plenty of wargamers that have no problem with 40k background and they are moving to World War Two right now. They are at ease with such talk. But I am slo sure that a majority of them just think of this as fluff and are not distraught like me... said that there is also a significant portion of the wargame public that thinks German troops are perfect...
Well what I have to say in the end? Like the box more or less... cannot buy it right now... I do not have sufficient buildings for a Berlin street fighting in 28mm. Probably I will do it in 15mm... but the Nazi Party official (the golden pheasant) it is funny in his own right... and as much I do not buy many warlord right now, some are nice. I am happy with my plastic USMC and my plastic IJA.
Arrigo
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For reasons already mentioned I think this box is more spooky then the one with zombies, but to be fair:
Some of the helmets look totally wrong.
That´s because that some of the poor chaps seem to use captured (French?) helmets.
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Finally some HJ and BDM minis! A good addition to a subject that is often overlooked in WWII ranges.
I'll be getting mine,
Brian
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For reasons already mentioned I think this box is more spooky then the one with zombies, but to be fair:
That´s because that some of the poor chaps seem to use captured (French?) helmets.
They do indeed. Along with captured mosin rifles, czech helmets, austrian carbines and whatever else was stored in the german warehouses as left-overs from conquered nations. For a quick overview on the HJ and Volkssturm, try reading Ospreys "Hitler Youth 1933-1945, it gives a relativley good idea of what sort of scratch-units was formed in the defence of germany.
As for the look and "feel" of Bolt Action these days, I'm quite happy with the sculpts. I wasn't around in the golden days when all the sculpts were more realistic, but I used to read "Commando" comics and my gramps so the "cartoony" look is good enough for me. I like the fact that there is such a good variety amongst us wargamers and that nearly all preferences are catered for by one company or another - and I think that a constant discussion of the subject matter of our games is a healthy way of enjoying our common hobby.
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Maybe they're a bit too cartoony, but I don't find them egregiously so. Except perhaps that officer, but then again... have you ever seen a photo of Hugo Sperrle? In any case, if you want a SERIOUS BUSINESS nazi official, I'm sure those aren't in short supply for a swap.
No, I'm much happier to see someone actualy releasing volksturm and HJ releases, period. They really are required for proper late-war german gaming and there's not enough of them by any means.
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Didn't some other company release HJ? I think Cubs painted them for whoever it was.
I totally agree with the words of the good Captain Blood on this subject.
Another vote for not liking the Warlord comic book style. I don't mind expressive faces or characterization but Warlord's Edvard Munch 'The scream' style heads as seen on some of their other stuff, are ridiculous. Is it the sculptors own style or the one that Warlord requests specifically, I wonder.
Who is the sculptor? Is it Wotjek?
I hope the Perrys expand their line of WW2 stuff further so everyone can use their wonderful, beautifully observed and proportioned miniatures for their WW2 gaming. Although I shall add that I like (most) of the Artizan WW2 range as well.
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Great Escape Games?
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Didn't some other company release HJ? I think Cubs painted them for whoever it was.
I totally agree with the words of the good Captain Blood on this subject.
Another vote for not liking the Warlord comic book style. I don't mind expressive faces or characterization but Warlord's Edvard Munch 'The scream' style heads as seen on some of their other stuff, are ridiculous. Is it the sculptors own style or the one that Warlord requests specifically, I wonder.
Who is the sculptor? Is it Wotjek?
I hope the Perrys expand their line of WW2 stuff further so everyone can use their wonderful, beautifully observed and proportioned miniatures for their WW2 gaming. Although I shall add that I like (most) of the Artizan WW2 range as well.
The Artizan range is really nice, but sadly it's extremely patchy.
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Yeah, Great Escape games, just had a look.
Yes the Artizan range is patchy. some of the proportions of arms, in certain poses are a bit off too. There is plenty of good stuff there though.
I think the other issue with Warlord is the casting quality, unless they have resolved that. I have their US Paras and frankly, they are a bit of a mess and take a lot of time cleaning. Nearly all the gun barrels are badly bent too.
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I had a hard time painting the Hitler Youth for Great Escape Games. I understand it happened, and I'm probably on thin ice to try to split hairs between certain aspects of war and others, but there are some things I prefer not to model. Child fighters fall into that category.
It was paying work and I didn't think twice when I took the job, but during the painting process they stopped being models and became frightened kids. I don't think I could accept another such commission.
Having said that, one reason I was so affected was the fact that the models were so damn good. I'm not a Wotjek fan and these are more of his same cartoon style that Warlord produce when they don't ask Mr Hick to make nice stuff.
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In respect of the comic book style I don't think you would find anyone at Warlord unhappy about these comments. I always assumed they named the company after the late 70s early 80s comic book and if that is correct then their figures certainly capture that style fantastically well.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warlord_(DC_Thomson) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warlord_(DC_Thomson))
I would post up some of the covers but a lot feature symbols not welcome on this forum.
I don't think anyone would agree that Warlord commission figures to be offensive.
I would rather think they do it as a nod to the comic book. The French SS look great.
Didn't flames of war fall foul of using inappropriate language in their second Art of War book?
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In respect of the comic book style I don't think you would find anyone at Warlord unhappy about these comments. I always assumed they named the company after the late 70s early 80s comic book and if that is correct then their figures certainly capture that style fantastically well.
You're possibly right, but why remove perfectly good, well-sculpted figures from the market? If they're so keen on the comic-style figures, why not put them out as a separate range instead of annoying the heck out of the rest of us? Insecurity on their part?
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They sell more to their US market that way.
Really? sigh...
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I like the haphazard nature of these guys they genuinely look like a last bunch of people left fighting but I agree with others that the style of the older models is a lot better. The bolt action stuff has always looked a bit cartoony to me but The old British commandos and Red Devils look far better than these.
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..they stopped being models and became frightened kids....
Hmm, not the 'F' word my grandfather used to describe them... He told one particular story that I won't go into. Can't see the point of depicting them for WW2 gaming, it does smart of bad taste. :(
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I think the set by itself is great as it closes some gaps or adds some more variety to mostly ignored subjects.
That being said, I absolutely hate their cartoonish style (and at times the lack of historical accuracy). What I do not understand is if they really have to be this cartoonish, why it is not consistent. It is very strong with the Germans and the plastic sets, but hardly recognise able with the metal British for example. Makes the whole range incompatible in itself at times.
All that being said... If there is something that I can not get from other companies, and this set will probably fall into this category as well, I usually go and change the heads to West Wind ones and make some conversions to the minis... That usually helps a lot!
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I think theres room in the market for cartoony Sgt Rock style figs. They remind me of the old Battleground World War II figures. For a long time those and Blacktree design where the only World War II figures in 28mm available, and I was able to put both on the table. We live in a golden age when people can choose not to buy Warlord's stuff because there are plenty of alternatives.
Each to his own. To say they are inferior is a bit of nominating oneself to be an art critic. Me, I like them. They clearly realized the style that the artist was after and therefore are artistically successful. You can't criticize a comic book for looking like a comic book.
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So, apart from the obvious, what other game scenarios can be played using these figures or are they 'Fall of Berlin' only?
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So, apart from the obvious, what other game scenarios can be played using these figures or are they 'Fall of Berlin' only?
Well, essentially you could use them for any battle taking place on German soil. You had Volkssturm and Hitlerjugend fight everywhere from Northrhine Westphalia to East Prussian and Silesia as well as Bavaria. The rag tag veterans could fit any setting from the fall of 1944 or depending on the region even earlier.
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I Think I Might use mine for Warsaw 44. The sculpted armbands could easily have them pass for Polish freedom fighters with some expropriated gear. The fat DNSAP-official will probably play the mainpart in an assassination mission in the early part of the battle.
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I had a hard time painting the Hitler Youth for Great Escape Games. I understand it happened, and I'm probably on thin ice to try to split hairs between certain aspects of war and others, but there are some things I prefer not to model. Child fighters fall into that category.
It was paying work and I didn't think twice when I took the job, but during the painting process they stopped being models and became frightened kids. I don't think I could accept another such commission.
Having said that, one reason I was so affected was the fact that the models were so damn good. I'm not a Wotjek fan and these are more of his same cartoon style that Warlord produce when they don't ask Mr Hick to make nice stuff.
I think the fact you saw them as frightened kids kind of shows in the painting you did. If it is your work on the website that is. The sculpting the facial expressions and the ill fitting uniforms help add to that look too.
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Dont mind painting and gaming late WW2 but personally dont really want miniatures that depict indoctrinated children fighting no matter how historically accurate they are and not for me.
Imagine they will sell though
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Dont mind painting and gaming late WW2 but personally dont really want miniatures that depict indoctrinated children fighting no matter how historically accurate they are and not for me.
Imagine they will sell though
Yes it would have been better if you could just buy the older folk, expect they will lose a few sales this way. But has you say they will still sell, so I doubt Warlord will worry too much.
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during the painting process they stopped being models and became frightened kids. I don't think I could accept another such commission.
and that is how they look like, KUDOS - indoctrinated or not, frightened kids, like any other child soldier, what else - how could it be natural for a child to go to war?
yes, sad to see one of the saddest chapters of european history exploited like this....
I wonder why not all miniature manufacturers reference sculptors and painters of their product...
I perceive it as bad manners not to do so
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They sell more to their US market that way.
You know, I don't like to get involved in so called "flame wars" as I perceive them to be the epitome of the internet tough-guy, but I honestly take offense to this statement as an American and a member of and officer in the US Army. To make a statement that defames my nation the way you have is reproachable at the very least and down right xenophobic at the worst. I'm not entirely sure as to what you're implying, whether the American people are only attracted to the nastiest aspects of war and that painting and playing child soldiers is some sick way of us imagining ourselves as good old Adolf Hitler or if we are some sort of bloodthirsty monsters that think the only gratification we could ever receive is forcing dynamically posed children to fight in a tabletop war that is supposed to be a reenactment of history. We play these games to relive history and these were aspects of REAL history and I feel that they have been horribly underrepresented until relatively recently. Some Americans may be psychotic monsters that get some sort of gratification when then send children to their deaths on the tabletop, but I'm sure that there are also Brits, Italians, Frenchmen, and Germans that feel the same. Its not a matter of nationality, but rather a matter of psychosis. Your comment disappoints me as you are clearly baiised against a nation because of some stereotype you grew up with.
Gunnar Lopez
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lol
well, how do "flame wars" start actually - by taking things out of context...
the remark You quoted was obviously and for two pages and 5 days read and understood by everyone as relating to why box-art with a kid-soldier in crosshairs needs to be on box-art. I personally would subscribe to the impression that sensationalism does help sell better, not exclusively in the US-market, but especially there. I think that the existence of certain news channels in the US is hint enough for that impression. I also believe that there are US-citizens who believe the same, I can't explain the succes of some Stephen Colbert or Jon Stewart otherwise...
now what You sir @arget8, are interpreting by the rather offensive statements (the comments about wargaming were really well placed in a wargaming forum lol) has apparently been generated in Your own mind, and at least from my POW can't be derived from the answer given.
As to what Your membership in the US forces adds to the argumentation is beyond me, (though I would concede that it hopefully implies You are loyally serving Your country). As to Your membership in the US officers corps, I am afraid that this kind of argumentation implies that lessons about - how citizens in a democratic country are not only allowed to but mandatory should criticize issues in a democratic country - are neglected in the political education of said officer corps. Hopefully such lessons were only neglected by You....
btw, in Germany, every administration employee (and especially members of the officer corps of the armed forces) would face serious charges if endorsing their private oppinion by using their status as a statement......
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Actually old boy it was more of a tongue in cheek comment on the propensity of your citizens to arm themselves and dispatch their fellow citizens, particularly the more youthful ones in schools, colleges and other educational facilities. A tradition that stretches back to Charles Whitman and beyond. In dubious taste? Yes, most probably but taste is such an arbitary thing.
If you wish to read My Lai et al into it be my guest but it wasn't my intention.
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As to the cross hairs, it's part of the standard packaging; take a look here http://store.warlordgames.com/collections/bolt-action?page=2 (http://store.warlordgames.com/collections/bolt-action?page=2) and you'll see a number of boxes with the same device (a figure in cross hairs) in the bottom left hand corner of the box. Could have been any of the 20 figures in that box that appeared in the artwork, who's to know why they chose the one they did.
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(http://tommcfarlin.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/escalated-quickly.jpg)
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(http://tommcfarlin.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/escalated-quickly.jpg)
QFT.
Since I was a bit concerned from the start due to this thread's topic, I'll lock the thread at this point and let everyone take a breath, calm down a bit and carry on with non-flame-related issues. I'll look into pruning the thread and a possible re-opening later today when I'm back from work.