Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => The Second World War => Topic started by: Rob_bresnen on May 14, 2014, 09:15:53 AM
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I am interested in doing figures for The Vichy French army in the Syria-Lebanon campaign. I am in tow minds if to do this in 28mm or 20mm/1:72
Artizan make nice French Foreign Legion in 28mm, which are perfect, and Wargames foundry do them in 20mm
But I want the Troupes Speciales (locally raised troops) and Colonial Troops too. Does anyone make, in either scale, suitable figures for Senegalese, Algerian infantry or Moroccan Tirallieurs? How about Circaasian mounted troops (which are described as being dressed like Caucasian Cossack)?
The availability of these figures will probably end up dictating the scale I end up using.
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Artizan have 2 packs of senegalese and three packs of algerians in their Foreign Legion ranges are they suitable?
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Askari Miniatures do some of what you are asking. Meant for an earlier period but the Circasian mounted troops should do the job. Not fantastic sculpts but they paint up pretty well.
http://www.askari-minis.com/webstore/index.php?cPath=42
http://www.askari-minis.com/webstore/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=21_28
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By the way, you've probably read it... But just in case you haven't, I'd massively recommend:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Englands-Last-War-Against-France/dp/0753827050/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1400061141&sr=8-1&keywords=war+against+france
'England's Last War Against France: Fighting Vichy 1940-42' by Colin Smith.
Without doubt, the best-written, most fascinating military history book I've ever read.
Lots of wonderful eyewitness detail (and great inspiration for scenarios) from the Syrian campaign, as well as the wider war against Vichy France.
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+1 For 'England's Last War Against France' here too! As the good Captain implies, all history books should be written like that! :)
This is a relatively new interest for me too, but I believe that the Artizan Tirailleurs and Senegalese might sadly be a touch too early. If I recall correctly, the Tirailleurs abandoned their 'baggy pants' during the Great War and both they and the Senegalese wore boots and puttees in Syria, with somewhat more discrete head wear too.
The Woodbine design 'WW1 in the East (http://www.grippingbeast.com/shop.php?CatID=397)' range might be closer to the mark though.
As for some of the local special units, I might be tempted by the Perry Sudanese range Bashi-Bazouks to fit the bill, for others by Artizan's Great War Arabs. Not exact, but close enough for me at least.
Circassians I don't know, but surely there must be a Interwar/Russian Revolution/Polish range somewhere which has something similar?
I am sort of hoping that the Perry's might 'discover' the Syrian campaign and knock out some figures for it, which could also be used for the brief fighting of the Torch Landings too. The French Army is woefully under-represented in WWII though.
:-[
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Thanks for the prompt reply and good ideas...it's looking like 28mm so far...
Those Woodbine ones certainly look closer to the mark...It's a pity Artizan's African troops are no good because it would have been nice to have got them from the same manufacture as the FFL.
I haven't read that book but based on your recommendation I have just ordered it off Amazon
From the photos I have found the African troops in the Syria-Lebanese campaigns seem to wear puttees or even shorts- here is a photo...
(http://i443.photobucket.com/albums/qq155/Rob_bresnen/Free_French_Foreign_legion_OWI_photo.jpg) (http://s443.photobucket.com/user/Rob_bresnen/media/Free_French_Foreign_legion_OWI_photo.jpg.html)
(http://i443.photobucket.com/albums/qq155/Rob_bresnen/CampagnedeSyrieBM2_0.jpg) (http://s443.photobucket.com/user/Rob_bresnen/media/CampagnedeSyrieBM2_0.jpg.html)
And these gunners look African, and are wearing the French tin hat
(http://i443.photobucket.com/albums/qq155/Rob_bresnen/debar015.jpg) (http://s443.photobucket.com/user/Rob_bresnen/media/debar015.jpg.html)
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I have just found this photo of teh circaasian cavalry...it is an interwar period photo, buit it is teh best I can find so far. It clearly shows tehir cossack style uniform...
(http://i443.photobucket.com/albums/qq155/Rob_bresnen/Circassiantroopswiththeirfrenchofficer-1.jpg) (http://s443.photobucket.com/user/Rob_bresnen/media/Circassiantroopswiththeirfrenchofficer-1.jpg.html)
I thought these might fit the bill
Brigade Games
http://brigadegames.3dcartstores.com/Russian-Mounted-Cossacks-Command-3_p_581.html
Copplestone castings
http://www.copplestonecastings.co.uk/images/bu35.jpg
What do you think?
Also has any body any photos of what the local troops looked like? Wiki says they wore a combination of French and native dress, with head scarves, turbans or fezs, but I can't find a photo. I was hoping to use the Artizan WW1 Arabs, as they are lovely, but I am not sure if this is very realistic.
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while it doesn't help with the native troops, the French are available from Elhiem (although designed for the Far East, they work for Syria too)...
http://www.elhiemfigures.com/ourshop/cat_815624-FarEast-French-ColonialTropical.html
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In the top photo of the Senegalese, one of them seems to be wearing British 'Eyeshields Anti-Gas Mk. II' on his hat, so they might be a Free French Unit. Having said that Rommel famously wore them too.
The special units varied, depending on type;
There are a couple of photos of Bedouins here: http://www.entretemps.asso.fr/PaulChanoine/5.Syrie.htm
Some other odd photos of various troops here: http://www.lyceelyautey.org/marocomb/plugins/diaporama/diaporama.php?lng=fr&diapo_id=3&diapo_page=2
A few more odd photos pop-up if you search for L'armée du Levant.
I would say that the Artizan Arabs should be fine for Bedouin units, not so much for others like the Druze.
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warning, there were tirailleur troops on both sides during syria campaign .
1st Free French Division consist of 4 "bataillon de marche" of african troops, 1 Legion Bataillon and one Marines bataillon.
the first and second pictures are of Free French Bataillon de marche , fighting with the british forces . they use a mix of french and britsh equipement .
you can find pics of Free French Tchekeresses here :
http://www.1dfl.fr/decouvrez-ses-unites/le-groupement-des-tcherkesses/ (http://www.1dfl.fr/decouvrez-ses-unites/le-groupement-des-tcherkesses/)
i think that the vichy forces won't be different
(http://igor.hagondokoff.perso.sfr.fr/photos/Illustration%20page%2028.jpg)
this drawing is of 1940 tchekeresse troops .
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any Circassian "cossacks" will do, the best I know are from Copplestone. Actually, what people nowadays know as cossack attire is actually circassian.
as for the african troops, You can use the artizan tirailleurs for meharistes, also try any SCW moros, they work well for Algerian campaign dress, especially the baggy trousers and puttees
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while it doesn't help with the native troops, the French are available from Elhiem (although designed for the Far East, they work for Syria too)...
http://www.elhiemfigures.com/ourshop/cat_815624-FarEast-French-ColonialTropical.html
does anyone have photos of those miniatures ?
best regards
paco
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or a scale information for that matter?
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soldier 24 RMI , Syria Lebanon 1941 - zouave 1941
(http://i58.servimg.com/u/f58/11/63/95/43/24rmiz10.jpg)
soldier Tirailleurs Sénégalais 1941
(http://i58.servimg.com/u/f58/11/63/95/43/tirail10.jpg)
the main difference between european and native troops is the headdress .
No fantasy uniforms , no cossack or bedouin dress .
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or a scale information for that matter?
Elheim only make 20mm, I think.
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No fantasy uniforms , no cossack or bedouin dress .
Indeed, the Tirailleurs Algériens, Marocain & Senegalais were quite similar and shared largely the same uniform as the Marins and Métropolites.
Judging by this photo of Circassians from Damascus in 1941, they too dressed very much like the ordinary Spahis, but with their own headwear.
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-hKcQI4r-wWM/U3TN5fXMGtI/AAAAAAAASNk/HNHZbpwb7-w/w676-h493-no/UK-Med-II-photo33.JPG)
However some of the Troupes Spéciales du Levant do appear to have worn 'Bedouin dress' judging by this cigarette card from the 'L'armee Française' series of 1935, showing the Méharistes and they would compare favourably with the uniforms worn by the British 'Arab Legion' too.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-uq-fJYKey2M/U3TTsCYvNmI/AAAAAAAASN0/lOxJZkb0a8c/w358-h493-no/3114701191_1_8_4OHGsdVB.jpg)
With the Druze looking more conventional, with just the Keffiyeh distinguishing them from the Spahis.
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-CefvTD1fOL4/U3TUmL9T5OI/AAAAAAAASOE/-phtuF9_v0U/w358-h493-no/Druze.jpg)
The Chasseurs Libanais apparently wore normal infantry uniform with a Turkish-style Fez, as in Lou's post.
The full series can be found here: http://collmili95.skyrock.com/16.html
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so, how regular is then gandourah, Djellabah, Bournous and seroual worn by native troops?
and what about these?
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/25/Circassiantroopswiththeirfrenchofficer.jpg/300px-Circassiantroopswiththeirfrenchofficer.jpg)
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this pic is from around 1925, when colonel Collet create the "groupement Tcherkess" as irregular suppletives .
( it seem's that the caucassian uniform was used as some kind of ceremonial uniform till the end of the war ) .
gandourah, Djellabah, Bournous were worn by native "irregular" troops such as the "goumiers" , not by regular infantry units .
the numerous ( 50 ) squadrons of syrian and lebanese cavalry were "regular" syrian and lebanese troops , local head dress french uniform and hadrian helmet , and french commanding officers ;)
BTW, yes the mehariste use seroual, when camel mounted ... so the 3 companies of meharistes in syria can be depicted as shown by Arlequin .
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I have difficulties to explain these pictures then
Spahi 1940
(http://notrehistoire.ch.s3.amazonaws.com/photos/2013/03/cff9f91f6673e31e.jpg)
(http://notrehistoire.ch.s3.amazonaws.com/photos/2013/03/8e63b7a6e45052f9.jpg)
(http://notrehistoire.ch.s3.amazonaws.com/photos/2013/03/426f172b0c22d790.jpg)
returning from Switzerland, and I can clearly see gandourah and Bournous on campaign....
and Beirut 1940
(http://www.ordredelaliberation.fr/images/photos/rmsn_beyrouth.jpg)
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_1z21-00ro9E/TRd9Y-rEaKI/AAAAAAAACxQ/LLfjUvZ6CLA/s1600/12.gif)
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former user and passejair, you are right all together :D
The Gandoura ((light" sand color" long coton shirt) was worn by all spahis and some of FFL cavalry (1st and 2nd REC) and some chasseurs d'afrique (not all and not in all theatres!),in campaign dress.
but for levant's troops, it is right that the combat dress is in french dress with just local head dress (haïc for arabs, black bonnet for circassians etc ....) no burnous (except the red/blue for algerian /morocan spahis for nights and winter dress,but during the syrian campaign the weather was very hot! ), dejlabas (only morrocan tabor and only after 1943) or "black dress" for circassians!
in fact, concerning the Syria in 1941 there is only some rare photographs (in France !) of "fighting" vichy troops ! a lot for Free frenches and british troops or Vichy troops but in peace time, with all the colorfull dress of colonial forces ! Is there good fighting photos in english books ?
bestregards
paco
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There are very few photos of Vichy troops any where, which is the problem... I had to use my very poor schoolboy French to find those I did. If any exist it is obvious that our francophone members are best placed to find them, especially those with an interest in the period.
This is turning into a very interesting thread, so please continue. :)
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Like for campaign of France 1940 or american civil war, southern armies , the best way to see real campaign dress of a defeated army is the photos of the winner, wich show prisonners or dead in the real campaign dress , it the reason why i ask iff english books shows french Vichy troops !
best regards
paco
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the best way to see real campaign dress of a defeated army is the photos of the winner, wich show prisonners or dead in the real campaign dress , it the reason why i ask iff english books shows french Vichy troops !
We are British, we might invite our defeated opponents to afternoon tea, but certainly not photograph their dead. :o
;)
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from what I read, the Vichy collaboration was pretty much kept under the blanket by Allied propaganda before 1943, and afterwards and in retrospective pasted over by the french themselves, so far as to deny recognition to the free french forces or the mainly leftist resistance. To my knowledge the faschist background of the Vichy administration and the post-war consequences of it are still not widely aknowledged even today in the french public.
Therefore, the only pictorial material I can expect is from private archives, because the Vichy propaganda is most likely still kept locked if not entirely destroyed.
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yes you are right , and after 1943 the fratricide fighting of 1940, 41 have to be forgot to forge a new french army with old vichy one and free frenches inside the same structure . And after 1944 the same in France for administration judges, police etc ..... so Syria is not a simple subject to find in photos!
the second fact is that when an army is loosing a battle or a whole campaign no one have time to take photos ! it is the same for 1940 in France, confederates during ACW , etc and harder is the campaign , rarer are the photos! ....
Every soldiers that took photos , took photos of deads (yes the british too !), for two reasons ,
- to show at friends and family at home that the guy taking photos was at the hot place,
- it is a psychological mechanism, "i show you the enemy dead, that is a proof for you and for me that i am alive!" it s very classical in each veteran photo album i've seen (british,US, german or french from WWI and WWII ) i've got exemples in my family for very educated and civilised persons !!!!they all took photos of dead guys in a time where photos were rare and expensives ,you had to choose each of them conscientiously and christian moral very important and against those type of photos!
regards
paco
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Yes I can see that, both in regard to the photos and what you say in 'rebuilding France'. In Britain I also get the impression that post-WWII the fighting between British and French was also conveniently forgotten and indeed de Gaulle's role was generally inflated too. A whole host of WWII myths seem to have been created though and it is only as an adult that I am finding out a more even view of the history, which in some cases conflicts greatly with what I was taught about it as a child.
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Unfortunately for your theory the French MOD Historical site has an exhibition dedicated to the Vichy forces http://www.ecpad.fr/la-photographie-de-larmee-de-vichy-1941-1943
http://www.ecpad.fr/les-forces-francaises-vichyssoises-combattent-durant-la-guerre-de-syrie
Lots of other pictures from Vichy on the site too.
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Ten photos is "lots of photos " ?
i'm still waiting (and i presume it will be long again in the futur) to find "CAMPAIGNING" photos of the fighting between french vichy forces and Free french ! in the two lot you show us, there is only one which can be concidered as "in campaign". one photo is not a lot of photos!
regards
paco
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well, a few is at least a start
I find this one especially interesting...
(http://www.ecpad.fr/wp-content/gallery/la_photographie_armee_vichy/VICHY-75-1451.jpg)
is this some sort of physical exercise?
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Hello
A good intro in French is Armes Militaria magazine n° 50 De l'Irak à la Syrie 1941 (2003)
Nice series of photos and colour illustrations of French vehicles (r35, ft17, white armoured car)
Carl
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Indeed, the Tirailleurs Algériens, Marocain & Senegalais were quite similar and shared largely the same uniform as the Marins and Métropolites.
Judging by this photo of Circassians from Damascus in 1941, they too dressed very much like the ordinary Spahis, but with their own headwear.
This is apparently a picture of a group of Free French Tcherkesses serving as escort for generals Catroux and Le Gentilhomme (1DFL) taken in front of the train station in Damascus
Carl
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well, a few is at least a start
I find this one especially interesting...
(http://www.ecpad.fr/wp-content/gallery/la_photographie_armee_vichy/VICHY-75-1451.jpg)
is this some sort of physical exercise?
Very interresting photo ! realy
i wonder who are those yong men ? franch army? or political youth association ?
i thought that the french army never use the nazi salut ? the army soldiers in the back ground don't make nazi salut (even those who don't have guns ....)a new mistery ....
the general visiting them is Gal Huntziger, formal comander of 4° army group in 1940, the one wich received the german's attack in may 1940 .the soldiers wore the new 1941 sport suit .
Cdr, you are right , the militaria HS N°50 is a very good base, but just one photo of prisonners in real combat dress .....but very nice on tanks, armoured cars or british troops and FFF ! but very poor (except prewar photos of course!) on Vichy troops!
regards
paco
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no, I don't think the saluters are soldiers, they must be some political organization. And the soldiers in the background are germans in disguise (to not appear suspicious in propaganda pictures) who are forcing them to do the faschist salute...
Yes, I think the french story is maybe symptomatic for Europe's attitude before it got simple to claim the right allegiance.
But this ecpad site is very interesting because it has a lot of photo collections - unfortunately my french is not good enough to search
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The Milice used that salute (although I have seen photos of them using normal military salutes too!), as did a few other French right-wing organisations of the time. The Milice are perhaps the most likely to feature in a military parade though and obviously you can't see what other units are present off camera... these might just be 'demonstrating' a mode of dress and there could be a fully uniformed group to their left.
I cannot see them being 'army' though either, as is the case with those men in the rear of the photo. I suppose they might also be something like the Compagnons de France or even older members of Scoutisme Français, but I don't see them using non-French salutes. The military of Vichy France was no less proud of its traditions than that of pre-War France, so I can only see a unit using that salute if it was somehow associated with the Fascists in a political sense.
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Video this time http://www.ecpad.fr/le-cinema-de-larmee-de-vichy-1941-1942
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Very interresting photo ! realy
i wonder who are those yong men ? franch army? or political youth association ?
i thought that the french army never use the nazi salut ? the army soldiers in the back ground don't make nazi salut (even those who don't have guns ....)a new mistery ....
the general visiting them is Gal Huntziger, formal comander of 4° army group in 1940, the one wich received the german's attack in may 1940 .the soldiers wore the new 1941 sport suit .
Cdr, you are right , the militaria HS N°50 is a very good base, but just one photo of prisonners in real combat dress .....but very nice on tanks, armoured cars or british troops and FFF ! but very poor (except prewar photos of course!) on Vichy troops!
regards
paco
prestation de serment ( i'm not sure of the english translation , but "swearing" may be correct ) au maréchal Petain, ?
anybody working for vichy governement has to swear an oath of alliegence to Petain .
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As an alternative theory- an it might be silly- but what if isn't a salute, but rather they are doing some kind of physical training or drill?
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prestation de serment ( i'm not sure of the english translation , but "swearing" may be correct ) au maréchal Petain, ?
anybody working for vichy governement has to swear an oath of alliegence to Petain .
'Swearing-in', 'swearing an oath', 'taking an oath', all work as well... 'swearing' is right too, but can be somewhat ambiguous. :)
You would know better, but do the French not raise the hand with palm facing forwards? :?
As an alternative theory- an it might be silly- but what if isn't a salute, but rather they are doing some kind of physical training or drill?
Doubtful, but I'd never call any suggestion silly where there is some doubt. ;)
What really puzzles me is that they are all 'saluting', usually it would be just the senior man in the unit who would salute (as in the background), while the rest just stand at attention... which makes me think more that they aren't regular military.
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'Swearing-in', 'swearing an oath', 'taking an oath', all work as well... 'swearing' is right too, but can be somewhat ambiguous. :)
You would know better, but do the French not raise the hand with palm facing forwards? :?
Doubtful, but I'd never call any suggestion silly where there is some doubt. ;)
What really puzzles me is that they are all 'saluting', usually it would be just the senior man in the unit who would salute (as in the background), while the rest just stand at attention... which makes me think more that they aren't regular military.
'Oath of allegiance' is the best translation in this case.
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not 100% related, these two interesting sites
http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/UN/India/EAfrica/index.html#contents
http://www.1dfl.fr/
and also some circassians in french uniforms
(http://www.francaislibres.net/liste/telechar/livreor/6193glivor.jpg)
(http://i31.servimg.com/u/f31/11/61/41/83/numar232.jpg)
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very usefull website with the whole units of the "armée du levant", OOB, equipement, uniforms, weapons, ... including local cavalry ... and some exotic vehicles ...
i have discovered that there were at least 40 White Armoured cars
(http://mailer.fsu.edu/~akirk/tanks/france/Fra-White-1918-IonFonosch.jpg)
with some laffly80
(http://i968.photobucket.com/albums/ae162/cgh1969/DSCF2323.jpg)
along with some custom build Dodge armoured cars ...
a lot of Renault R35 et Renault FT17
it's in french but with a translator ;)
it's here : histoire de l'armée libanaise (http://histoiredelarmeelibanaise.wordpress.com/category/unites-francaises-engagees-au-liban-1860-2012/)
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Actually it's just a group of French football fans giving a choreographed demonstration of how tall Mathieu Valbuena actually is.
I think they might be exaggerating by a foot or two. :D
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very nice site, THX.
I always wonder why french sources always seem to completely omit the french involvement or rather pursuit of the goal of establishing an Armenian state in Cilicia and the monstrous blunder that was it's outcome.
I would really like to read more about the Armenian Legion...
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very nice site, THX.
I always wonder why french sources always seem to completely omit the french involvement or rather pursuit of the goal of establishing an Armenian state in Cilicia and the monstrous blunder that was it's outcome.
I would really like to read more about the Armenian Legion...
wich one ?
the one organized in 1916 or the Armenische Legion ?
for the 1st one , you can give a look at :
La Légion arménienne, une force supplétive encombrante pour la politique française en Méditerranée orientale (http://armenologie.blogspot.fr/2012/01/la-legion-armenienne-une-force.html)
Le mandat français en Cilicie, la Légion arménienne, les accords franco-turcs et l'évacuation des Arméniens (http://armenologie.blogspot.fr/2012/01/le-mandat-francais-en-cilicie-la-legion.html)
and follow some links :?
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merci beaucoup!
well, in the context of this thread, the first one naturally
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Not Vichy but certainly French in Syria 1941 .......
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZfdNz377yTw
Included appear to be:
Bataillon de Marche no 3 or n°4
1e Bataillon de Fusiliers Marins
and Col Collets Circassian Cavalry
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The native bataillon de marche is probably BM 4, as the narration specifies the men hail from Cameroon.