Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => Medieval Adventures => Topic started by: TheBlackCrane on 21 May 2014, 05:12:35 PM
-
Anyone able to point me in the direction of information on the Revolt of Ghent against Burgundy in the mid C15th?
Also possibly the Guelderian Wars in the first half of the C16th?
I'm contemplating the Burgundian Wars, but also looking for other than the usual Burgundian vs French or Swiss angle, so conflicts in and around the period and how I might go about putting together forces for them (for Burgundians I have my eye on 15mm Mirliton and/or Legio Heroica), so any suggestions in that regards or for the general military history would be much appreciated.
Thanks!
Rob
-
There is very little available in English for the period, apart from some quite short internet bits here and there. Other than the Swiss Wars and the Hundred Years War, European history in the Fifteenth Century is a black hole for the English speaking world.
I've done some stuff on the Franco-Burgundian War of 1477 to 1483, which does give some info on the Ghent and other Flanders Communal Militias, which might be of some use to you; you can find it on my blog linked below.
The period does not give many large battles, but it does give a lot of raids, counter-raids, sieges and other skirmishes, which continued from Charles the Bold's death, right up to the Early-Sixteenth Century (arguably even beyond that) and the Guelderian Wars (which were more of the same, but with a slight shift in geography). 'Peacetime' meant no armies marched, but even then there were frequent clashes.
The effect on the region was comparable to areas of Germany during the Thirty Years War, with whole swathes in the border areas depopulated. Besides the obvious Low Countries contingents and the French, English, German, Swiss, Italians and eventually even Spanish contingents, official or otherwise, were involved.
Investigating it all is certainly going to be hard work, but I would think it would be very rewarding. Good luck if you decide to pursue it.
:)
-
Well I live in Ghent ;)
So i'll see what i can find (there is still a banner dating to the 1470's in existence )
Carl
-
Well I live in Ghent ;)
So i'll see what i can find (there is still a banner dating to the 1470's in existence )
Carl
Thanks! That is most kind :D
There is very little available in English for the period, apart from some quite short internet bits here and there. Other than the Swiss Wars and the Hundred Years War, European history in the Fifteenth Century is a black hole for the English speaking world.
I know, it's jolly frustrating, although I can read German texts too, but generally I find a lot of the conflicts I'd be interested in looking at from a wargaming point of view either the information is difficult to come by or there isn't a decent range available (- a while back I contemplated doing the War of Chioggia). My own fault for being more interested in somewhat esoteric (well, to me) conflicts compared to the mainstream!
The period does not give many large battles, but it does give a lot of raids, counter-raids, sieges and other skirmishes, which continued from Charles the Bold's death, right up to the Early-Sixteenth Century (arguably even beyond that) and the Guelderian Wars (which were more of the same, but with a slight shift in geography). 'Peacetime' meant no armies marched, but even then there were frequent clashes.
This intrigues me. I have a, perhaps foolhardy, notion of doing it in both 15mm and 28mm, for battles and for skirmishes. Plus, I may even then press the forces into service for some sort of fantasy-esque setting too.
I'll take a look at your blog too, thanks, and do some more digging.
Cheers
Rob
-
I just had a look at your blog Arlequín - wow, you have a plethora of information on the The War of the Burgundian Succession, very interesting stuff! Now I am hooked… as if I need another project :)
Anyway, thanks, the whole thread is very inspiring!
-
Thanks Gents! :)
I started off almost exactly where Rob did... a vague interest in a wide swathe of late 15th/early 16th history, with not much idea of exactly what it was I wanted. As I looked deeper and found out more it distilled down into that one area, beating off the Italian Wars in the process.
There is only one big battle, that of Guinegate in 1479, but a lot of small actions as I said, which are quite easily transferable to the table.
A good starting point is 'Mémoires' by Philippe de Commines, which has an online translation somewhere (Project Gutenberg?), but is available as a book too. It's a hard read, but is worth the perseverance and as accurate an 'original source' for the time as you will get, despite his biases. Sometimes bundled in with that is Jean de Troyes's 'Secret History of Louis XI' which is also useful.
The only modern work I know of is Verbruggen's 'De slag bij Guinegate, 7 augustus 1479', which sometimes comes up for sale, but is long out of print. For a small book it's packed with detail on the Flemish/Burgundians from 1477 to the time of the battle itself. There was an English edition, but that's even rarer than the Flemish copy.
Other than that it's a slow haul of bits of information, often in French or Flemish/Dutch... hence my slow progress and of course my interests in many other things doesn't help.
-
Ok, I just ordered the old English edition of de Commines - I can read French if it must be, but I'd rather not. I hold you personally responsible, guys, if I should start another period ;)
Thanks for the bibliographical hints, Arlequin!
-
http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gentse_Opstand_(1449-1453)#mediaviewer/Bestand:15th-century_painters_-_Surrender_of_the_Burghers_of_Ghent_in_1453_-_WGA15789.jpg
This illumination shows the surrender of the banners of the guilds of the town of Ghent after the treaty of Gavere in 1453. (the flags correspond to the ordonnances of 1436 with left the arms of Flanders (a black lion on gold) and right the arms of Ghent (a white lion on black) above the arms of the guild
The rebellion itself saw sieges of castles (Poeke, Gavere) and towns (Oudenaarde), and battles (Bazel, Nevele and Gavere). The main battle is that of Gavere (23/07/1453) which saw the use of artillery in the field, treason by a group of English mercenairies (John Fox) and ended in a massive defeat for the Ghent army
A reminder of this struggle is the Dulle Griet (also known as the Red Devil) canon in Ghent
http://users.telenet.be/gentmijnestad/foto/grootkanonplein/dullegriet_lr1.jpg
Note the similarity with Mons Meg in Edinburgh
A Ghent flag dating to 1482 http://www.lukasweb.be/en/photo/vaandel-van-de-stad-gent-0
hope this helps
Carl
-
Thanks for that Carl... I've struggled to find contemporary images of banners myself, so that is much appreciated. I would imagine that they were not so different in 1477.
I know the city's guns were taken to Oudenaarde as trophies of war after 1453, from where they were brought back in 1477. I have no idea of the quantities or types though.
-
The banners would actually be the same. In 1477 duchess Mary gave permission to retrieve the banners of Ghent which had been kept in the churches of Our Lady in Boulogne, Halle, Alsemberg and Brussels since the time of Duke Philip and the battle of Gavere.
On guns you should try and find the article by J. Verbruggen on the communal armies of Ghent and Bruges in 1477-1479. He consulted the still existing archives and gives every gun, arrow, canon bought in that period. His book on Guinegate is very good.
hope this helps
Carl
-
On guns you should try and find the article by J. Verbruggen on the communal armies of Ghent and Bruges in 1477-1479. He consulted the still existing archives and gives every gun, arrow, canon bought in that period.
Carl
Would that be this?
"Gentse en het Brugse gemeenteleger in 1477–1479" Militaria Belgica (1984), 15–23
Not found the article itself so far, but that might be the pointer.
-
I could be wrong, but I recall that the 1984 article was expanded to produce the book itself, it certainly does include a considerable amount of detail on what was bought and how men were organised.
There is apparently also detail on 'liveries' worn by the contingents, but my line by line translation efforts have yet to uncover them. ::)
-
Of use might be Osprey's latest Men at Arms on the Hanseatic League.....
-
Well i've got both the book on Guinegatte and the article on the 'gemeentelegers' and they are quite dissimilar.
There is a lot on liveries in the Guinegatte book. The communal accounts are very interesting on this topic eg in 1452 they talk about a large quantity of white cloth and a much smaller quantity of red cloth for the English archers (white with a red cross ? )
other examples (this comes from an article i wrote some time last millenium :D)
1461 Ghent soldiers black with a red cross on the left front side and a white letter G on the front and back
1467 Ghent soldiers tawny with a white saint andrew's cross on front
1472 Bruges soldiers red and blue with a small crowned letter B on the front
1478 Bruges handgunners red with a black Saint andrew's cross on front
hope this helps
Carl
-
Of course and everything you've added to this thread has indeed been very helpful and is much appreciated. :)
I'm coming around to the idea that rather than 'all' wearing a single common city livery, there was a standard mass-produced one for the majority of new troops raised, another for each of the Schuttersgildes (which they had in any case for civic functions and competitions) and another somewhat more elaborate livery for those usually employed by the 'City' (Kaproenen, gunners and others).
Obviously for Ghent, the 'g' would be the common badge for all and when serving 'Burgundy' the red (or any contrasting colour) St. Andrews cross would be superimposed (as would be the case during the time of Charles the Bold and Marie's War).
Right or wrong, I do not know, but it would explain why there are differences mentioned for the same city over a period of a few years (other than the possibility that they used whichever colours of cloth were both cheap and plentiful when the army was raised).
:)
-
There is very little available in English for the period, apart from some quite short internet bits here and there. Other than the Swiss Wars and the Hundred Years War, European history in the Fifteenth Century is a black hole for the English speaking world.
I think Jonathon Sumption goes into some depth in one of his HYW books- unfortunately it is still early HYW but it might be useful?
I could check it out if you like? Though please bear in mind that they are hefty tomes and I'm in the middle of moving o_o :-[ o_o.
Darrell.
-
All I know is that the whole affair was rather revolting! lol
-
All I know is that the whole affair was rather revolting! lol
Peasants are usually revolting.... think Baldric lol.
Actually though, in this case it would have been a mix of merchants, artisans and the lesser nobility involved in the revolt, at least in the main.
Darrell.
-
I think Jonathon Sumption goes into some depth in one of his HYW books- unfortunately it is still early HYW but it might be useful?
Unfortunately not, like everywhere else things moved on in the Netherlands and 14th Century Flanders was as different to late 15th Century Flanders as England and France were in the same periods. There's a fair amount of stuff out there on the 'Courtrai era' and of course a lot about Charles the Bold... which is also equally unhelpful, as his army was a short-lived aberration.
Actually though, in this case it would have been a mix of merchants, artisans and the lesser nobility involved in the revolt, at least in the main.
Indeed, the Ghent revolt would have seen a 'typical' Low Countries force of the time turned out by the city, with members from all levels of their society. The revolt was led by city hall and the guilds, not a spontaneous rising up of downtrodden mud-sifting folk.
:)