Lead Adventure Forum
Other Stuff => Workbench => Topic started by: FramFramson on 29 May 2014, 03:37:01 AM
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A number of people here have done tutorials on flexible gaming mats, where caulk is slapped onto canvas or a drop cloth.
My first question is: Usually the caulk used is acrylic, but silicone is half the price. Is there any reason not to use silicone? Is it less durable? Toxic? Takes paint poorly?
My second question is: What sort of paint have people been using for their base coat? I've seen spraypaint used - but does the base coat need to be flexible or will regular spraypaint work alright? I.E. can is just buy all spraypaint and do the whole thing in in that, or should I lay down something like latex as a base coat?
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Silicone doesnt take paint at all, and it smells like vinegar...
Acryl takes paint very well. You can even mix it with paint (cheap wallpaint for example) before applying it to the mat.
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Silicone doesnt take paint at all, and it smells like vinegar...
Acryl takes paint very well. You can even mix it with paint (cheap wallpaint for example) before applying it to the mat.
I agree. I just did four terrain mats (different sizes) with acrylic caulk and they worked great. My buddy tried the same thing with silicone and ended up with a textured mat that even spray paint flakes off of. Unfortunate waste of money. The only thing that might work is use the silicone as an adhesive to add textured materials like dirt, sand and flock to the surface. I have seen that done. The Problem with those mats is the materials thin out over time and the silicone and the mat show through.
Snitchy sends.
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You mean both types thin out over time, or just silicone thins over time?
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No, both things loose flock over time. Sand sticks very well to the acryl if you mix it before you put it on the fabric.
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Oh, loosing flock. Well, that's different than cracking. Most people who've had good success with retaining flock have been very generous with their application of PVA.
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Oh, loosing flock. Well, that's different than cracking. Most people who've had good success with retaining flock have been very generous with their application of PVA.
The problem with PVA on a flexible mat is that it will come off. Again the same issue. My original comment was about using the silicone as an adhesive for flock and dirt. With the latex you are using the flexible material as the texture. Here is a pretty good tutorial on the subject. You can use spray paint instead of an airbrush. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WtRMoIZfPPg (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WtRMoIZfPPg)
Hope that helps.
Snitchy sends.
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I wonder if there's a better flexible glue to add that is still transparent and still able to be heavily diluted to spray on?
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So I bought some acrylic caulk. There was only one brand in the hardware store (and I checked a couple of them) that had no silicone, so not a lot of options here but at least there was one.
Now, on the label it says the amount of time before you can paint it (presumably the full curing time) is 21 days!
Would I really have to wait that long before applying any spray paint or PVA? I mean, I can if I have to, but that really seems like a long time! Could I wait a week and be alright? Two weeks?
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Here's how I did a matt using Caulk:
http://armoredink.blogspot.com/2009/04/reviving-game-matt.html
And fixing the worn places from all the action my matt under goes
http://armoredink.blogspot.com/2009/04/reviving-game-matt.html
I also now mix cheap green paint in with a large dollop of caulk, mix it so it gets a green tint to in, spread and use a rolling pin to force it into the caulk. Next day, with help, large roll it and hold over lots of paper on the floor, whap it several places to get most of the lose flock recovered and then roll out and start next large area.
Oh, and I buy Kel Seal by the gallon from Kelly Moore Paint Company for around 28$ a gallon in a sturdy plastic tub / lid.
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21 days!?! That doesnt seem right. Usually it only take about 6 hours for a good cure on caulk. I would leave out a test bead of caulk to press on every once and a while. When you push it and you dont leave a permenant imprint, its cured enough for paint.
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21 days!?! That doesnt seem right. Usually it only take about 6 hours for a good cure on caulk. I would leave out a test bead of caulk to press on every once and a while. When you push it and you dont leave a permenant imprint, its cured enough for paint.
i have a question:
What sort of material does one use as a base for the matt?
Darrell.
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Canvas, or something similar.
You need to stretch it taut while the caulk and paint dry and cure.
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Canvas, or something similar.
You need to stretch it taut while the caulk and paint dry and cure.
Aren't you able to get Dap? I get mine at Home Depot, surely you have those in Ottawa?
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The only brand I could get at the Home Depot here that was acrylic only and not a part-acrylic, part-silicone mixture was Mono. :?
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The only brand I could get at the Home Depot here that was acrylic only and not a part-acrylic, part-silicone mixture was Mono. :?
That is weird. DAP: http://soldatetain.wordpress.com/2014/02/01/utabi-terrain-for-the-desert/
Dirt cheap, works great. Totally paintable.
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Canvas, or something similar.
You need to stretch it taut while the caulk and paint dry and cure.
How do you stretch it? Staple it or nothing that drastic? ??? ???
Oh, and has anyone got any idea where to buy Acrylic Caulk in the UK?
Darrell.
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Prestretched canvases were on sale, so I got one. But I've stretched canvas many times and purchased more canvas to re-use with the same frame so I can make more mats. Yes, you'd use staples (proper, heavy ones) to hold the canvas in place.
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You can stretch it or not, its all preference. you will get a smoother, flater end result if you strech , but I've seen some made that werent stretched at all and they looked fine. I stretch mine but I only temporarily clamp it to the table with hand clamps. I would iron it if it was folded though.
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Prestretched canvases were on sale, so I got one. But I've stretched canvas many times and purchased more canvas to re-use with the same frame so I can make more mats. Yes, you'd use staples (proper, heavy ones) to hold the canvas in place.
Yeah, I've stretched a few canvases in my time too (Fine Art at Uni), that's why I was asking how you stretched them :). I always use a staple gun ;) :)
Thanks for letting me know 8).
Darrell.
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Here's my game mat thread with links to the tutorials http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=54727.0
I've used the slow drying caulk before (got it at walmart when Home Depot was out of DAP) and painted within a couple of days after application. Seemed to work fine.
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Here's my game mat thread with links to the tutorials http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=54727.0
I've used the slow drying caulk before (got it at walmart when Home Depot was out of DAP) and painted within a couple of days after application. Seemed to work fine.
Your tutorial is actually what I'm using as my reference. I've had them bookmarked for ages. :D
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Your tutorial is actually what I'm using as my reference. I've had them bookmarked for ages. :D
And it is going to prove to be very useful too!! Hurrah!! 8) 8) 8)
Darrell.
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Ugh, so today I thought I'd finally really do it, I'd finally get my terrain mat on the way. Ohhhh no, instead I wound up throwing everything out.
I don't know what I did wrong, but the caulk would not spread for ANYTHING. It was horribly thick, viscous, and above all, sticky. This crap stuck to EVERYTHING.I immediately ruined the latex gloves I was using to spread around the caulk and I haven't even gotten to the sand yet!
Then I tried adding sand and spreading the stuff with something tougher, but that didn't work either - it was still horribly sticky, the sand clumped, and nothing spread any better. Worst of all, it became very clear that I was not going to get anything decent in terms of an actual usable texture for a wargaming mat.
Here's a few pictures from right before I threw in the towel and pitched everything.
(http://i.imgur.com/axWh72v.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/Q4B17sQ.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/HOLKJ3J.jpg)
The dull colour was because I was using coloured caulk. You can see in the second picture the peaks and swirls I would have been left with had I left it to dry.
I don't really know what else I could have bought. As mentioned earlier in this thread, there was only a single brand of acrylic caulk in the Home Depot here that didn't have any silicone in it (MONO). Every other brand is a part silicone, part acrylic mix (or just straight silicone), and while Home Depot carries DAP products, I certainly didn't see any DAP caulk (I also tried RONA, which is another builder's chain around here). So I really don't know what else I could have bought. The stuff I had was exterior caulk - not sure if that matters?
An hour later, my hands are still buzzing from all the mineral spirit I had to use to get this crap off my hands. What a ruin.
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well that sucks :(
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Bummer... I know that ras'n-cras'n feeling only too well.
Some articles recommend making an easy to control mix by extending / diluting the caulking with paint and mixing sand or other texture into that. If you decide to go for a re-match, you should consider going this route...
Also, buy a box of the gloves and wear them doubled-up.
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Wow, that sucks man.
When I've used it, I use a large drywall knife tool, as big as I can get, and spread the DAP all over, and then move it around using the tool. Kind of like drywall mud. Add sand after. And then, using a wet small paint roller, go over top. Keep wetting and wringing out the roller to keep it from clogging up.
(http://soldatetain.files.wordpress.com/2014/02/img_1282.jpg?w=650)
(http://soldatetain.files.wordpress.com/2014/02/img_1278.jpg?w=650)
(http://soldatetain.files.wordpress.com/2014/02/img_1279.jpg?w=650)
(http://soldatetain.files.wordpress.com/2014/02/img_1280.jpg?w=650)
(http://soldatetain.files.wordpress.com/2014/02/img_1281.jpg?w=650)
(http://soldatetain.files.wordpress.com/2014/02/img_1289.jpg?w=650)
(http://soldatetain.files.wordpress.com/2014/02/img_1291.jpg?w=650) (http://soldatetain.wordpress.com/2014/02/01/utabi-terrain-for-the-desert/)
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Also, buy a box of the gloves and wear them doubled-up.
I had a whole bag of the things. They didn't last worth a damn. Even if they had, they wouldn't have done much good, because the caulk was so damned sticky it basically glued my hands down.
Going to go down to Home Depot again to see if they have the DAP Alex or not. Maybe I just missed it last time
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I use a piece of base board trim as a "spreader" for the caulk once its plopped or squeezed onto the section of canvas surface, said surface being taped or stapled down around the edges to hold it flat. When the area I want to work on is covered/spread out, I pour the surface material over it in great quantity, grab a rolling pin and work the surface material in. Leave it alone over night. Stand it on edge Very slowly over newsprint to catch excess surface material, there should be a lot. Let Dry for another day. Then I start the next section, typically 1/3 to 1/2 of the total area.
When done, having given the last section 2 days to dry, spritz with the usual diluted pva to help keep the surface material in place.
I ran tests on some 1 foot x 1 foot pieces before I tackled a large matt (4x6 feet and larger)Have done 5 matts this way with no problems, but caulk is Very sticky, nods.... I was a professional house painter and can attest to that. Also I buy the "Brushable" (you can use an old paint brush to spread it)caulking in a Tub from Kelly Moore so I don't have to split / squeeze tubes. "Trowelable" in a tub is MUCH Thicker caulk.
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Using a large joint compound knife (drywall knife) will help tremendously. Most important is to use water to wet your tools. a knife, your gloved hands, whatever you use, wet them down first as it will keep the acrylic caulk from sticking so much. It will also extend your working time a bit. Experiment witht your caulk on a small scrap first, so you get a feel for its properties.
Hope this helps.
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Aww matt, sorry to hear about your misadventure!
The Grant's road technique looks pretty sweet anyways! ^^
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Using a large joint compound knife (drywall knife) will help tremendously. Most important is to use water to wet your tools. a knife, your gloved hands, whatever you use, wet them down first as it will keep the acrylic caulk from sticking so much. It will also extend your working time a bit. Experiment witht your caulk on a small scrap first, so you get a feel for its properties.
Hope this helps.
The thing was, I ended the first experiment when I realized that even if I had a way to spread the stuff better, it would still have looked like crap as a terrain mat. It was so sticky that it wasn't ever going to settle properly or flatten. And for whatever it's worth, doctor_ocks original tutorial specifically mentioned he was able to spread everything by hand.
However, I think I have the answer. I was able to find some DAP Alex 100% acrylic after all. Apparently it was stored off to the side under "crown moulding" at our Home Depot. On the label this stuff has a MUCH shorter drying time (which also reassures me, because doctor_ocks' tutorial also mentioned having to work in stages due to a short working time) and is mercifully water-soluble. Hopefully I'll have the chance to try this stuff soon instead.
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I can confirm that the DAP Alex (NOT the Alex Plus, which is part silicone) "crown moulding" caulk is in fact the right stuff. Works beautifully, spreads perfectly well, etcetera, etcetera.
So not just any acrylic caulk will do, but that specific brand and variety.
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Wonderful, sounds like you are on the right track! Show us how the next attempt come out please.
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Terrific news...
Also I just reviewed the two tubes of caulking I had bought for my project. I had bought the dreaded 'plus'. >:(
Would have been in a world of hurt without you breaking the trail first. Sincere thanks for taking a hit for the team and sticking with it until the riddle was solved...
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Should say paintable on the tube. Most of the silicone stuff isn't.
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I haven't used the Alex Plus myself - it might be okay-ish (the silicone content is pretty low, but I know know exactly how much, but it's maybe paintable?), but no matter if it's useable and paintable, it'll be worse than the plain Alex (crown moulding). The proper stuff is only $4 a tube and 2.5 tubes should cover a 3' x 4' area, so there's no real reason to go with the other stuff. FYI, two tubes is just short unless you're spreading it really thin.
I suppose you could always experiment with the stuff, but if you have your receipt it's probably best to just take it back to the store and get the regular Alex.
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Sorry to hear about the first mat. Sounds like the batch of caulk was old too and had thickened. Hopefully your next attempt goes better.
Snitchy sends.
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It was new enough, it was just the wrong formulation.
Just as you can get all sorts of different carriers and still call acrylic paint 'acrylic paint', so there are all sorts of different carriers for caulking. The MONO had a very heavy solvent-based carrier, as it's the sort of stuff you would use to seal the outsides of your windows. The DAP Alex is meant for much finer interior work and so was vastly easier to spread and was significantly less sticky. But they're both "acrylic caulk'.
In fact, the DAP Alex was almost the same consistency as thick acrylic craft paint.
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Going to go down to Home Depot again to see if they have the DAP Alex or not. Maybe I just missed it last time
I was able to buy a case of tubes of Alex at Walmart of all places. $2 a tube. The stuff works great (just repainted my home and had to caulk like a madman for a couple days.) I got the white color though it comes in clear, black and tan as well.
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We refer to it as "Carpenter's Helper" ;)
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So far so good. First we had the caulk & sand layer:
(http://i.imgur.com/ckSu9N6.jpg)
Then the initial acrylic. I mixed up some raw sienna, burnt sienna, a little blue to tone it down, a little white and painted it on.
(http://i.imgur.com/OOZylvx.jpg)
It was pretty saturated for dirt (moreso than this pic shows). So I tried some different spraypaints to tone it down. I have a nice chestnut that I wound up using for the most part. There's more colour variation than shows in this image, because some of the initial reddish brown shows through.
(http://i.imgur.com/fTp8CSj.jpg)
It's still a little bland for now, but some flock and scatter will get us there.
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Wash and a drybrush.... 2 bits?! lol
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Funny you should say that. I was tempted to go back and do a thin wash with a little yellow ochre/raw sienna or something to bring it just a hair closer to my existing basing. but I think this colour is as close to universal for dirt as I can manage with a single main colour theme (dirt is of course many many different colours, often quite different). This isn't dark, isn't light, has a little yellow, has a little red (when you see it in real life), is of middling saturation, etc.
I still might though. I'm not sure there's enough variation in tone.
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Looks spot on Fram... Glad this is turning out so successfully!
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Dude that looks great!
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Just a thought but did you think about giving it a dark wash of something brown before spraying?
It would help block out any excessive pale patches?
Darrell.
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If I do a slightly darker wash, it'll be to provide more fine variation in colour.
What I don't know is if I want to do a fine, slightly darker wash, or a drybrush in a slightly lighter colour.
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If I do a slightly darker wash, it'll be to provide more fine variation in colour.
What I don't know is if I want to do a fine, slightly darker wash, or a drybrush in a slightly lighter colour.
Probably both to get as much depth as possible?
Darrell.
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Probably both to get as much depth as possible?
Darrell.
100% Both.
And maybe use a couple of colours for the dark wash, one brown based/burnt umber and one black based/dirty
That way you don't get a flat mono chromatic dark tone. Blend the two while wet from area to area...
Same with dry brushing, i always use at least three colours...
I wont take that much longer, but the results have far more depth and variation, which over a large area, always look more natural and far far better
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100% Both.
And maybe use a couple of colours for the dark wash, one brown based/burnt umber and one black based/dirty
That way you don't get a flat mono chromatic dark tone. Blend the two while wet from area to area...
Same with dry brushing, i always use at least three colours...
I wont take that much longer, but the results have far more depth and variation, which over a large area, always look more natural and far far better
Yep, I tend to agree 8).
Darrell.
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Oh no, I agree. The existing mat already has a range of colours (which is very hard to see in the photos). I'd want to improve that, not kill it with a monochrome!
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Oh no, I agree. The existing mat already has a range of colours (which is very hard to see in the photos). I'd want to improve that, not kill it with a monochrome!
Yeah, as you say, it's difficult for us to see in the pics, maybe if you could find a way of casting more light on it and posting another pic (if you have time of course!)?
Darrell.
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I think it should go on tour... We could judge for ourselves more accurately, not to mention with a degree of fairness.
Better yet, Fram, why not make three and send them out. :D
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lol
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Finished!
Yesterday I spent far too long sponging on highlights in lighter tones, both reddish and yellowish. It was a decent mix of colours but still looked terrible to me. Then I mixed every craft brown I have and put on a wash coat. THAT did the trick and made everything look great!
(http://i.imgur.com/zVynbSA.jpg)
The envelope was for a white baseline. The colour in these photos is pretty accurate.
(http://i.imgur.com/242GzDQ.jpg)
Now it was time to cover up all my hard work! ::)
I basically mixed up a variety of flock combinations and went nuts.
Came out pretty good. I had to take the pictures at night so the colour isn't perfect, but I think it's still pretty clear:
(http://i.imgur.com/0jJ4Ds4.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/NrN0Iui.jpg)
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That looks incredible! Way to go!