Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => Age of the Big Battalions => Topic started by: Archie on June 04, 2014, 02:16:20 PM
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The History
I grew up fascinated by a box of Napoleonic figures that my parents had painted together when I was very small. My dad then gave me the figures when I was around eleven or twelve and I messed about a bit with them using them on a very basic level. A year or so later I was introduced to Dungeons and Dragons and Citadel Miniatures followed shortly after - back then they made figures for other games systems ... yes the 'good old days' indeed.
These are the figure that brought me into the hobby originally and despite the armies of Spacefarers, Micro Tanks and Space Marines that I have bought, used and then sold these boys have always been here ... sometimes to hand, sometimes living in the attic.
Anyway despite all the house moves, and changes that have happened to me in my life I have kept the figures and now, something like 30 years after I first saw them and fell in love with them, I think it's time to renovate them.
I think it's time that they get fixed up and then expanded upon and finally see some action. I have a copy of Henry Hyde's Wargaming Compendium (currently my only wargaming book) and I thought I'd use the rules from in there.
But I get ahead of myself - they need renovating before they see action!
Why I am Sharing This Personal Project
Before I show what I've got let me explain why I am sharing - quite honestly having got back into miniatures last year, upon recommendation from my wife and my doctor to work less and relax more I have flitted around the internet into different forums and I'm going to wear my heart on my sleeve and say that you folks on LAF seem to be a very decent bunch of people. I've had people send me free figures and other stuff, give me free advice and generally be very pleasant and nice.
Also if there is one overriding thing that I see on the forum (apart from lead piles) it's that people here really care about this hobby. And as someone who has always found it an isolating hobby, which is unknown to most people I meet, I find it very refreshing.
Hence why I am willing to open up and share this personal project because I suspect it will resonate with some of you reading this.
And I figured you guys might enjoy seeing some 35 year old figures getting fixed up and made whole again.
Oh and I might need some advice along the way!
Anyway that's the deal and here are some pictures of the cavalry situation which is phase one of the project.
The Project
For the life of me I can't work out how to put text underneath pictures in this forum so let me explain what you see - the first picture with a bunch of horses stuck to green card bases.
That was my first attempt at basing things. My 12 year old self only had limited resources and I used double sided carpet tap ... and then slapped some paint on to try to stop EVERYTHING sticking to the exposed tape ... I didn't know about basing back then obviously!
Believe it or not but I didn't add the paint for a few years and used to just have to be careful about moving the horses around. And the paint didn't really work - the card is really sticky even 25 years I stuck the tape on - I can only guess my dad had bought good quality carpet tape!
So I thought the first thing to do would be to cut the horse free. I can't pry them off the backing without damaging them I don't think but the extra hight that the card will give them won't be noticed when they are based properly so that should be okay.
I'm also gluing the horses to their bases which was never done before.
Question One
Does anyone know what regiments / sides those horses are from?
I believe the grey looking ones with blue plastic showing through are Scots Greys but I might be wrong and I have no idea what the other ones are.
All the figures were Airfix 1:72 plastic kits I believe.
All help appreciated.
Final Note
As far as I know my dad was working without reference material apart from the boxes the kits came in so the colours on the figures and horses might be wrong (this was the 1970's remember). Whilst I am going to be repainting them I might also keep some of them as they are for old times sake or keep the colours. Do please bear that in mind when commenting.
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Happy to join you on your journey and provide advice and praise at the right moments.
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See that's what I mean - people say nice things and I'm still uploading photos. :D
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Hello Archie
Seems that you have also french dragoons horses.
I remember to have some many years ago.
Check the web site Plastic Soldier Review for reference on 1/72 plastic soldiers.
There you can find images of the boxes and the miniatures.
Very usefull.
Cheers
Rui
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These are Airfix miniatures. Looks like you have a combination of horses from different sets.
The figures with the lambskin covers are from the Cuirassier's set, as are the horses with the two front feet off the ground.
The three horses in the front row are from the American Civil War cavalry box.
The Horses with the long, pointed saddle blanket come from the British Napoleonic Hussar set.
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Thanks guys ... american civil war horses :o
Genuinely shocked by that. I dont recall ever seeing any non Napoleonic riders ... apart from the six American indians on horses that I also still have. (Even though one got chewed by the dog!)
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For the life of me I can't work out how to put text underneath pictures in this forum so let me explain what you see - the first picture with a bunch of horses stuck to green card bases.
Quick explanation: there's many ways to add pictures to your forum posts. You're selecting the method similar to attaching photos to an email (and won't be able to add explanitory text underneath each picture). Another method is similar to adding pictures into a Word document (and can add text wherever you want).
The first has the photos hosted on LAF (and may be easier for you), while the second method requires you to host the photos on another website (ie photohosting websites like Flickr, Photobucket, etc) and then refer/link back to them in your forum post.
I think we'll understand when you post (nothing stopping you from posting/commenting on one photo at a time). Anyway, this'll be fun to watch.
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Thanks von lucky that makes sense.
Here are the next batch of ponies that have been cut free. Two tails snapped off and a leg broke. I think I have managed to glue the leg back together. The metal rod is weighting down the horse so the hoor and leg press against each other as the glue dries.
Some of these horses were not on the card bases so I have just glued them down to their plastic bases. As I remember I ran out of carpet tape and very glad of that I am now!
Six more sets of three horses each to liberate.
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The standing horses in the upper right side of the latest photo are command horses from the Napoleonic Highlander Airfix set.
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Two quick tip as regards the horses/riders...
warm up an old scalpel blade and 'weld' the horses to the stand. You can usually do this from underneath where the locating pin fits or gently 'weld' a bit of the base to the horses foot (oops, hoof!). Glue the riders on then give both a really thick coat of gloss varnish when you've retouched both, this will seal the bloke to the horse better than any glue... you can always matt varnish over the gloss if you don't like the glossy look.
Good luck with your project.
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The horse ID's above are spot on! One give away is that the Napoleonics used to be moulded from cream coloured plastic, the ACW stuff were moulded in blue and grey plastic.
One of my pals swears by plumbers plastic pipe glue for gluing these polythene figures. He squirts out a dollop onto a bit of scrap card and then uses a toothpick to get it where it's required. Of course a layer of paint will prevent the glue getting a 'plastic to plastic' weld.
Do keep us posted on the progress of your project.
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I look forward to seeing the labours of your activity. Good Luck.
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Happy memories seeing these. Good luck with your project. :)
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Cor these take me back :-*
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Thanks for all the comments guys ... yes they are a bit of a time travel job cwrtainly for me. I dont remember when I first saw them but it would have been 1975/6 when I was 5 or 6. I believe they were painted the year before.
Do they still make these sets of figures? I heard that Airfix were rereleasing some WW2 boxes this year and it made me wonder if you could still get these?
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You might check with Michigan Toy Soldier Company in Royal, Michigan. They have an extensive stock of 1/72 plastic figures and they have a web site that could help you out. If Airfix is still available....they would have them or know.
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All the horse have been cut free and I have been sorting out the riders into sets. Busy with work but when I get a moment I will take some pictures. Lost one horse due to legs snapping off. I was going to still use it but it went from a three legged horse to one legged in a matter of seconds! So far the legs have refused to stick but I havent tried superglue yet. Worth a try before I bin her.
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Excellent work there, I have some plastic miniatures for this scale that need to go to a good home. PM me with your address!
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First up Orlock you are a gentleman and no mistake! (Even if you are using the name of the East Meg assassin from 2000AD!)
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So if I have followed people correctly what I have is the following - as shown in the second picture below.
The first picture is simply to show how many I have of each. (Sorry the pictures are rather grainy taken in poor lighting conditions)
There is one broken horse (as in it actually broke) and I have some scenic dead horses and some being held by someone. (Three of those)
I could do with identifying the command horses but I will take a better quality picture of them before I ask for help with that!
What I am wondering at the moment is this:
Question
What nationality are these Cuirassiers? And / or what side did they fight on - French or British
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Big Question
I have only properly ever played skirmish games and for some reason this business of multiple bases and ratio of men and bases to unit sizes is like a fog that I can't pierce.
In "The Wargaming Compendium" by Henry Hyde that I am using as a guide for this project he talks about putting cavalry and infantry on bases that are 60mm x 40mm
His recommendation is for cavalry that you put three horses side by side (spaced out evenly) per base - this is for close order cavalry.
For close order infantry he suggests 6 infantry men per base in two rows of three. He does add the point that he actually uses bases that are only 45mm wide for his infantry to create a more condensed (classic) look.
Cavalry
Question One
The bases of my horses won't all neatly fit 60 x 40mm bases so I'm going to have to trim them. Is this just one of those things that you have to do or have I misunderstood something basic? (My guess is that bases are smaller now and would thus fit). I'm okay with trimming the bases I just want to know it's a normal thing to have to do.
Infantry
I understand two ranks of men with equal numbers in each. That's fine.
I also want to keep the same base sizes for cavalry as infantry.
60 x 40mm seems like a perfectly fine size and given his rules in the book are based on a standard base size of 60 x 40mm I think it keeps everything simple to maintain that size.
What confuses me no end is the following
Question Two
Does it make any difference if I simply put more miniatures onto a base? It seems to me that if I put two ranks of five that they look great. I like that compact look. But will it mess things up when I am trying to work out how many bases I need to represent a regiment etc?
I was thinking that as long as I work with the guide that "each base = x number of men" then I can sidestep any issues about how many people are on the bases.
But am I wrong?
This is what has got me confused:
Page 360 of the The Wargaming Compendium says (in the section - "Shot, Steel and Stone" rules)
"Bases x 3 (6) = The standard operating unit for infantry or cavalry, equating to something like a battalion or regiment at campaign strength of around 500 - 600 men."
"The unit sizes in brackets reflect what in amongst wargamers have come to be called 'old school' preferences for visually appealing units consisting of an average of 36 miniatures or more. All weapon ranges and other distances in these rules have been adapted to suit this. It is perfectly feasibly to halve these numbers in order to fit more, smaller, units on the tabletop"
Why does how many figures are on a base affect ranges? Or why does having more bases affect the rules I can't understand that.
Sorry if that's two questions in one but I am very confused on this and obviously I only want to base these guys up once (more) and I don't want to get it wrong!
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Hello Archie
Lets see if i can help you.
First the Cuirassiers where french (from the airfix box).
About the questions of bases.
I dont have the wargaming compendium so i cannot precise what´s written there. Many of the existing rules specify the base sizes and the number of figures represented in them but (as my humble opinion) you can base individually your figures and then make a separated base according to the rules you are using.
When you play with the figures just put the right number of figures on the bases and wargame with them.
Therefore you have the miniatures based individually and can place them in any type of bases acording to the rules used.
Hope this helps.
Cheers
Rui
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Yeppers....Looks like you have all of the horses correctly identified. In the miscellaneous line (top view) I can't quite make out the black, third from the left. But, other than that, you appear to be on the right path.
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Big Question
I have only properly ever played skirmish games and for some reason this business of multiple bases and ratio of men and bases to unit sizes is like a fog that I can't pierce.
In "The Wargaming Compendium" by Henry Hyde that I am using as a guide for this project he talks about putting cavalry and infantry on bases that are 60mm x 40mm
His recommendation is for cavalry that you put three horses side by side (spaced out evenly) per base - this is for close order cavalry.
For close order infantry he suggests 6 infantry men per base in two rows of three. He does add the point that he actually uses bases that are only 45mm wide for his infantry to create a more condensed (classic) look.
Think of a base representing the footprint that a unit covers/has an influence on the tabletop. Remember that in non-singular basing wargamers (ie non-skirmish games) you are usually dealing with three scales: that of the miniatures (ie 1/72), that of the figure ratio (ie 1 man represents 100 men), and that of the ground scale (ie 1 inch equals 100 feet). The base your miniatures are on will usually match this last scale, though might be a fourth, less important, scale. Therefore the number of figures on a base doesn't really matter - it's what you think looks 'right'. The same for the base size, where Mr Hyde think 45mm coverage will give the right look. He could just as easily have done 8 infantry men per base in two rows of 4 figures to get that "classic" look.
Cavalry
Question One
The bases of my horses won't all neatly fit 60 x 40mm bases so I'm going to have to trim them. Is this just one of those things that you have to do or have I misunderstood something basic? (My guess is that bases are smaller now and would thus fit). I'm okay with trimming the bases I just want to know it's a normal thing to have to do.
You can either trim or deepen the bases. Most rulesets state that depth is allowed to accommadate miniatures. The width is usually a lot more important. I would deepen the bases to 50 or 60mm to keep these miniatures as original as possible, but other times I have trimmed bases to make them fit. It's really up to you.
Infantry
I understand two ranks of men with equal numbers in each. That's fine.
I also want to keep the same base sizes for cavalry as infantry.
60 x 40mm seems like a perfectly fine size and given his rules in the book are based on a standard base size of 60 x 40mm I think it keeps everything simple to maintain that size.
What confuses me no end is the following
I agree, I would keep the frontages the same if nothing else.
Question Two
Does it make any difference if I simply put more miniatures onto a base? It seems to me that if I put two ranks of five that they look great. I like that compact look. But will it mess things up when I am trying to work out how many bases I need to represent a regiment etc?
No. The difference is your miniature to man ratio is different, where each miniature in your army may only represent 80 or so men.
I was thinking that as long as I work with the guide that "each base = x number of men" then I can sidestep any issues about how many people are on the bases.
Correct.
But am I wrong?
No.
This is what has got me confused:
Page 360 of the The Wargaming Compendium says (in the section - "Shot, Steel and Stone" rules)
"Bases x 3 (6) = The standard operating unit for infantry or cavalry, equating to something like a battalion or regiment at campaign strength of around 500 - 600 men."
"The unit sizes in brackets reflect what in amongst wargamers have come to be called 'old school' preferences for visually appealing units consisting of an average of 36 miniatures or more. All weapon ranges and other distances in these rules have been adapted to suit this. It is perfectly feasibly to halve these numbers in order to fit more, smaller, units on the tabletop"
Why does how many figures are on a base affect ranges? Or why does having more bases affect the rules I can't understand that.
Sorry if that's two questions in one but I am very confused on this and obviously I only want to base these guys up once (more) and I don't want to get it wrong!
There's nothig to get confused about.
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Rui ... these figures are somewhat old so I think the less handling they get the better. When permanently mounted I can move the bases around without as much direct handling of the figures.
Von Lucky ... thank you for taking the time to be so detailed. I am going to hold to 60mm wide and give a little thought to whether I extend the depth to 50mm to give a bit more room for the horses.
Bulldogger ... thanks for the confirmation. I will take a clearer pic of the command horses and then it will be time to match the riders to their mounts!
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Hello Archie,
The figures were posted out today.
3 boxes of British foot artillery by Revel
5 boxes of Chasseur Cheval by Hat Industries
Plus a few British infantry
All the best,
Richard
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Richard
Outstandingly generous. Many, many thanks.
Archie
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Wargame Bases were at the Scarborough show, Wartorn so I purchased four packs of 60 x 40mm mdf saw cut bases. They had the same size in laser cut but they cost about 40% more and it seemed a needless level of precision.
(I also got some lovely movement trays for another project.)
I was going to start basing the cavalry up but I think I should tidy up their paintwork first.
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Nice work, I look forward to watching your project progress!
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Hi Archie,
Has your package arrived?
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Hi Orlock
No sign of it at the moment. Allowing for the weekend then tomorrow really should be the day for it.
Archie
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Arrived on Wednesday just before a left for a couple of days on business. I saw there were some painted, looked like British troops in there as well - didn't have the time to open them up properly - looking forward to doing that when I get home at the weekend.
Very generous and I am looking forward to putting them together and getting them painted. I now have enough to do for quite a while!
Orlock you are a total gentleman - thank you! :D
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Hi Archie, I am pleased they have arrived safely! I look forward to seeing your efforts on this board.
All the best,
Orlock