Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => Old West => Topic started by: Veralius on 13 June 2014, 02:34:20 PM
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Hey everyone.
I obtained about 20 or so of the old Foundry Western miniatures at a convention earlier this year. Like most purchases, they've lounged at the bottom of the lead pile!
Anyhow, I've only just realised that they are all at the "small" end of the Foundry size range, and they look noticeably smaller than say the Artizan cowboys. It's a real kicker, especially as they're all lawmen so I'll definitely be needing more minis for the bad guys.
What do you lovely Lead Adventurers do in this sort of situation? I could sell them all and buy into the larger ranges available these days, or could stick to one manufacturer and just buy more Foundry stuff. Argh, the decisions!
Or maybe I should just remember they're all toy soldiers at the end of the day and just get on with it! :)
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I dint get too hung up. We use a mix of foundry, especially as they have some great civilians and characters, with Artizan, Dead Mans Hand AND Black Scorpion. Everyone in real life is not the same height! You can artificially adjust figure heights a bit too.....use a piece of plasticard on top of your base to raise a low figure, especially if it has a cast base.
If you painting them for display, a vignette perhaps, I'd agree that you'd ensure some match up.....but for gamers? Not usually a problem.
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Your other option is to slip a piece of card/spacer between the base of the figure and the washer or stand that you intend to base the figure on.
It will raise the height of the miniature and usually does the trick.
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I vote for the spacers between the bases too! If you do decide to go down the route of more figures, from what I recall the Dixons old west stuff scales nicley with the smaller foundry old west figures...
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Not with western models as I don't have any but with other ranges I don't worry too much about height my biggest issue is with head and hands. Of the head or hands of a model are hugely different then they just don't like right to me but I have no issue with different heights.
I think it matters even less when you have models that are individuals like Wild West ones rather than historical that are ranked up in units.
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I game with friends who have lots of different figures. We mix and match at will for the most part. We get caught up in the game, not the scale creep.
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Nope, people vary in height and girth...
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Only when I run into the smallest of a "scale" and the largest of a "scale". For instance I didn't bother painting/using my Knuckleduster figures because they were proper 25's (really small) and I use everything else from Black Scorpion, which are 30's or so. I haven't found other ranges to cause much of a fuss. But the Knuckleduster figures I had were literally half the mass (height/width etc.) of the BS guys.
I agree with the adjusted bases.
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I have a similar issue in 15's with Peter Pig and Blue Moon. The smaller ones I use as a proxy to identify lesser skilled figures and the taller ones are characters and heroes.
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Veralius,
I've stuck with collecting only Black Scorpion figures, and have not regretted it. While it is true that people vary in height and girth, weapons do not.
Nick
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I just fought a battle between traditional Samurai and Amazons warriors wearing erm .... fur bikinis ... for me this is all a game and if my trusty (not lusty!) Amazons can fight Samurai one day and a dragon the next then a small matter like size is immaterial.
And guns are different sizes ... as my ten year old asked yesterday when comparing the pistol the character Callan (from the sixties tv show) uses (a 38 revolver) was compared to Lara Crofts pistols.
Its nice if everyone is roughly the same size but I wouldnt sell some just to rebuy in a certain scale.
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Nope...
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/04/Troops_of_the_Eight_nations_alliance_1900.jpg)
Perhaps think Billy the Kid?
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"Re: Do you worry about varying figure sizes?"
every day! like I hate people not being the same size. Makes me sick when I go into the streets every day...
Used to have a dry goods factory for pants - bloody retailers wanted me to make different sizes, damn critters.
Went bankrupt on that. My shrink recommended collecting miniatures soldiers "for they are all the same size" - bloody good idea!
But even those damn sculptors can't agree on one size, and they even make different scales...
Dammit! will have to quit the hobby.....
(http://fc08.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2011/129/6/7/wink_emo_icon_by_revolver_by_revolver0067-d3fy3uu.png)
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While it is true that people vary in height and girth, weapons do not.
(http://www.lifesizegunposters.com/A0-1-Final-5-Western-Longarms.jpg)
(http://media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/10/a3/25/10a325e7efc2499b472d6fd4777398ef.jpg)
(http://media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/93/36/42/933642301e311b51b1c1986576944eb8.jpg)
(http://iwantthatknife.com/Gallery/albums/rimfire-guns/auto_size_comparison.jpg)
;)
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Yes.
It's a personal preference. There's no right or wrong answer, so I don't think there's much point trying to find ways to 'prove wrong' the people who don't agree with your preference :)
Personally, within a particular 'army' I like all figures to look and feel stylistically similar. It's not about height, it's usually about bulk / stature and sculpting style.
People with lower aesthetic values, who don't care about (or are unable to achieve) beautifully painted figures or beautiful terrain, will generally care less about the look of things, so won't mind too much about mixing figures of all different shapes, styles and sizes on one tabletop.
People with high aesthetic values, for whom 'the game' is just a way to enjoy and use beautiful models and terrain, are more likely to pay attention to the details of such things and want everything to look as perfect as it can.
It's just a personal taste thing, so maybe we should refrain from trying to prove each other 'wrong'? :)
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People with lower aesthetic values, who don't care about (or are unable to achieve) beautifully painted figures or beautiful terrain, will generally care less about the look of things, so won't mind too much about mixing figures of all different shapes, styles and sizes on one tabletop.
and instead make sly condescending remarks? wow, Richard, this is a really new quality in bullying......
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and instead make sly condescending remarks? wow, Richard, this is a really new quality in bullying......
He has a point though. :)
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I am not into escalating here.
from my personal view, I would prefer to state the factual contribution above in this way:
I don’t know if the articles by Tom Meier about sculpting and human anatomy are still available online, but since he has sculpted miniatures since the beginning of time, he might count as a reference to artistic awareness. They are surely worth looking up.
Anyway, from my poor experience, I noticed that often size (scale) issues in miniatures between different ranges are more often a proportion thing, because it has always been an artistic technique to highlight features by size in sculpting. So actually, when we perceive miniatures as incompatible (within the real-life variability of human physique and artifact manufacture of course) it is more about the proportion within the sculpt that is so different to another. We can call this style.
in digressing a bit, these differences are also an instrument of marketing ranges, remember the turmoil when GW released the LotR miniatures?
Now, there are collectors who might be more interested in the artistic quality and style of their miniatures and thus are very aware if such standards are indeed incompatible within ranges.
On the other hand, there are collectors who search the artistic approach by embracing differences in style and artistic expression and want to collect a larger variability of this register.
Or they prefer the choice of quantity or simply accept the real life variability.
I any case, it is up to each and one’s choice
Personally, I am inclined towards the last two approaches
I might have expressed this a bit too sarcastic?
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and instead make sly condescending remarks? wow, Richard, this is a really new quality in bullying......
Do you think?
Sorry you choose to take it that way. I'm just stating a fact: Some people care a lot more about achieving a high quality look than others. Some people care nothing for the look - they only care about the game. Some people fall in the middle. They like a game to look reasonable, but aren't too fussed about the niceties.
I repeat my belief - mixing differently sized figures is a matter of preference. The less you care about the look of the game, the more likely you are to be unconcerned about mixing figures of different styles and statures on the tabletop. The more you care about the aesthetics, the more likely you are to want everything to look like it all belongs together. Therefore different sized and shaped figures are likely to bother you. I don't see what's so controversial about that. As usual, it's horses for courses...
I am not saying one approach is right or wrong. I'm saying it's a personal preference, that's all. So why set out to try to prove people's personal preferences wrong?
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and instead make sly condescending remarks? wow, Richard, this is a really new quality in bullying......
Get a grip man.
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If we try to pretend the crazy person trying to pick fights isn't around and carry on as normal, then I'll say this - I try not to put wildly differing sizes of models together if I can help it, because I don't like the look of the thing. Yes, people come in different shapes and sizes, but I don't want my guys to look like a freak show of 7ft dudes next to 4ft dudes. As far as I'm aware, .44 Winchester repeater rifles didn't come in differing lengths for different sized people!
But the proportions are every bit as important as the actual height of the model, at least for myself. I have a SAGA warband in (very slow) development with Redbox Games models (with small, delicate details and extremities) and Gripping Beast models (quite chunky). The heights don't bother me much, but the proportions do grate with me a little.
It's up to you really. As Captain Blood says - quite reasonably - if you're in it for the aesthetic effect then it would probably matter more to you than if you just want to slap some paint on a few models to use as gaming pieces to play the game.
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and instead make sly condescending remarks? wow, Richard, this is a really new quality in bullying......
How is what CB wrote a new quality in bullying? I really would like to know because to me it reads as his personal view - one that he is well known for - not as his imposition on others.
The remarks don't even read as sly or condescending, which is something you question. I realise that English is not your first language and that might explain what reads as your seeming misinterpretation and resulting over- reaction but that is not an acceptable excuse in what is an English language forum.
Anyways, back to the subject matter. I don't like to mix sizes and styles unless it suits the aesthetics to do so. That includes weapons where I do like the same specific weapons (eg AK47) to be pretty much identical between different minis.
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Anyway...it's really rather simple. No one manufacturer has such a complete range to hold my interest. I like VARIETY in both style and subject matter and wish to keep expanding my game. I can paint to a good table top quality and DO care about the overall look of my game and I take lots of time to add detail but I need to mix the manufacturers. If I worried too much about scale I would end up with the same laser cut buildings as many others opposed to making my own, if considerably BIG buildings which suit my style of play.
In answer to the question, it's what YOU want to do that counts.
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Hello all
Well, in my humble opinion, this is a hobby to make our own pleasure and taste.
Of course when we play with our friends we tend to follow some of their opinions instead of following our heart and mind.
As Digits says very well i think there are no complete ranges in any manufacturer that satisfies me so i also search on severall manufacturers for as many diferent models i can but i also look to the size so i tend to complete what i want with models as much similar (in size and sculp) as i can.
I think with the variety of models available in the market you wont have trouble in making what you want even if you have to search on many manufacturers.
The important thing is to have fun in modelling/sculping/building/painting/wargaming, no matter our skill. ;)
Cheers
Rui
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I don't think it's quite fair to say people unbothered or less bothered by changes in scale are uncaring or unable to create high quality paint jobs or care less about aesthetics. It may just be that what they beleive to be aesthetically pleasing and what strains their suspension of belief is different to yours.
That said the less one cares about aesthetics of said models the more they would be willing to forgive in terms of scale differences outside of what may bother them if they were painting a diorama for example.
I think the reason cb's comment sounded like bullying to former user is because it can be interpreted like he was saying if you are willing to use different scaled figures you are unlikely to be able to paint well or create an aesthetically pleasing game. I don't think that was the intent but I could see how it could be read that way. I think even if that was CBs intent It still wouldn't be bullying.
To summarise different people will have different thresholds of how different in size models can look before they start to look wrong on the same table. The more you care about how your game looks the more within said threshold you may want to stay. The more you care about gameplay price etc over aesthetics the more you may be willing to shy outside your personal size threshold in order to get a model to represent a certain character or archetype.
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former user,
Thanks for that info, yes, different marks and calibers of guns will be different sizes, by a garden variety iconic Winchester would be the same size, whether the user is 6'5" or 5'2". As others have said, I stand by my choice of manufacturer because I like the size and the style. Would I like to see more figures in the range? Of course I would, but I've made the choice and I will live with it.
Nick
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I personally don't pay too much mind to "scale creep". I have Artizan, Foundry (quite a few civilians) and Black Scorpion happily co-existing in my small collection, but I did find Dixon's too small in comparison with them.
To me the main thing is to have fun playing my games and I only give my figures a basic paintjob (glad I discovered Army Painter...). But that said, I strive to paint all my figures as I do not like to see "bare metal" on the table, for God's sake get them at least decently dressed ;)!!!
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All,
Please lets keep in mind that LAF is thankfully the civilized forum, where there is always open and honest sharing of views. Lets not start acting like that other page.
Nick
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To me the main thing is to have fun playing my games and I only give my figures a basic paintjob (glad I discovered Army Painter...). But that said, I strive to paint all my figures as I do not like to see "bare metal" on the table, for God's sake get them at least decently dressed ;)!!!
A painted figure no matter the quality is always preferable to me than an unpainted one.
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As long as the differences are not very big, I am fine with variation as humans by nature are a variety of sizes and such as mentioned by anatomy discussions.
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I mix figures in all my periods, that's the beauty of the hobby, although I do tend to keep them as close as possible. With my Dead Man's Hand I have Knuckleduster civilians, who are basically non player characters, and for the others a mix of DMH, Artizan and the beautiful Black Scorpion, now if you look at all these ranges closely they are not all uniform, some are thin, others fat and again some 'normal' and if you muck about with the bases (only the BS needed this for me) they all fit fine. I looked at the DMH Stagecoach crew the other day and if you put them next to a DMH standing figure they must have Hobbit forebears, but they look fine when set down on a crowded table. Mind you if you have Foundry figures why would you need to look elsewhere, the range is huge.
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Ohhh man, don't even let the "vehicle crew" discussion begin. Let alone "how could X number of people fit in that stage coach!?" lol That's a whole new ball of wax.
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Ohhh man, don't even let the "vehicle crew" discussion begin. Let alone "how could X number of people fit in that stage coach!?" lol That's a whole new ball of wax.
Clowns or regular people? With or without bases attached?
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As far as I'm aware, .44 Winchester repeater rifles didn't come in differing lengths for different sized people!
Actually, they did.
The classic lever action rifles were offered in bewildering variety of calibers, barrel lengths, barrel types, stock lengths, finishes etc. Plus cutting the stock is just about the simplest gunsmithing operation you can do.
Fitting the gun to the shooter is a very basic thing on the civilian side. It's the army grunts (and to some extent, Hollywood extras) who have to live with whatever they are issued with.
IMHO, it would be natural for a smaller person to look for a smaller gun. This is not an era of mass produced goods. You go to the tailor, he will make a suit for you. You go to the gunsmith, he will fit a gun for you. Ofcourse sometimes you have to make do with what you can get, but it's not at all out of the ordinary in this era for every single thing you own to be custom made for you.
Remember, we're talking Old West here, individuals who bring their own equipment, not government standard issue for everyone.
As for the figures: I think this is one of the genres where small variations in figures matter the least: There are no massed formations and there's even very little hand to hand combat which would require placing miniatures next to each other for easy comparison. Every figure on the table is literally an individual and usually viewed individually.
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Very strangely I'm torn, but I tend to try to have similar sizes with maybe a few big guys and girls.
But I think a lot of painters/gamers have a little control freak nagging them for everything to be the same size/scale. This is true for me, then I get on the bus and see how the real world is. But those little men and women are MY SUBJECTS AND HAVE TO CONFORM TO MY VISION!!!
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I don't think it's quite fair to say people unbothered or less bothered by changes in scale are uncaring or unable to create high quality paint jobs or care less about aesthetics. It may just be that what they beleive to be aesthetically pleasing and what strains their suspension of belief is different to yours.
I think the reason cb's comment sounded like bullying to former user is because it can be interpreted like he was saying if you are willing to use different scaled figures you are unlikely to be able to paint well or create an aesthetically pleasing game. I don't think that was the intent but I could see how it could be read that way.
It wasn't quite fair to say it - and I felt that it wasn't 'bullying' but insulting. I strongly suspect it wasn't meant that way but as someone who had come down on the side of 'size doesn't matter' I felt a little hurt. I'm fairly recently back in the hobby and whilst I like my painting ability for me it pales completely compared to virtually anyone on here.
As such reading the original comment set me back a bit and I've hesitated a few days over how to respond. I think Carlos has pulled out the relevant points and has a summary that bears repeating:
It may just be that what they believe to be aesthetically pleasing and what strains their suspension of belief is different to yours.
I really think that's it. I do the best job on my figures that I currently can but equally I'll play with an unpainted or undercoated mini if that's what I need for the game at hand and if they aren't quite the right size I won't have an issue with that.
Interestingly that 'suspension of disbelief' can vary depending on what I am playing. I am building an army from scratch for the rule set from Foundry - Gods of Battle - and I am striving to make them all at least similar in scale. That said I have some much shorter Amazons from one supplier and taller Dark Sword mini's. I did rule out using the 32mm girl who just didn't fit but also her asthetic wasn't right once I saw her in the flesh.
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Sounds reasonable. Best of luck with creating your army.
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No.