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Other Stuff => Workbench => Topic started by: Major_Gilbear on 18 June 2014, 10:52:54 AM
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Hi all,
As the topic title suggests, I am after some old Citadel Sky Blue ink (from that generation of horrible screw-top paints). Obviously, it is loooong out of production, and is a rare enough colour that I never seem to find pots of it on ebay.
So, does anyone know of a good substitute please? I've tried P3 Turquoise ink (too green), and can't really mix it from other colours.
Ideally, I'd like something light-fast too... It takes me so long to paint models that the last thing I want is for them to have faded after a few years! o_o
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try the winsor and newton blue inks,they have a nice light blue that should work.
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I've just looked on the W&N site, and found these advisements on their site:
As Drawing Inks contain dyes, they do not possess the lightfast properties of pigmented colours and should not be used in work which is intended for display in lighted areas.
The colours can be easily diluted with water to reduce the strength of the colour or to increase its transparency. Distilled water must be used as tap water causes the dye to separate from the binder.
Makes them seem pretty delicate! :?
Do you have experience of using the lighter colour W&N inks? Do they reactivate when you varnish them, or paint over them with other paints?
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honestly i've abused them and they've never fallen short, i use them on my miniatures and they don't have any problems :)
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I looked W&N inks up when someone said the old GW washes were those, repackaged. (they weren't) They're shellac based, if that means anything to you. Basically, glossy, waterproof and tough. Give a finish not unlike those old GW screwtop inks. (more like it than CDA inks, anyway)
Sky blue colour though... I only vaguely remember something like it. :? Sorry!
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I probably have a bottle, PM me your address.
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I probably have a bottle, PM me your address.
Wow, thank you! PM inbound! :)
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I looked W&N inks up when someone said the old GW washes were those, repackaged. (they weren't)
Yeah, I heard they were "re-packed" too, but that wasn't true. However, a lot of GW stuff *is* re-branded or a copy of something similar (usually better and cheaper...), so I thought I would ask here for suggestions. :)
Sky blue colour though... I only vaguely remember something like it. :? Sorry!
Yeah, I suspect that's exactly why it's hard to find... :?
It's rather nice on silvers though. You can do it with a "normal" blue wash/ink, but it doesn't have the same vibrancy. I didn't want to start a new project with a distinctive colour that would run out before the end!
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Yeah, I heard they were "re-packed" too, but that wasn't true. However, a lot of GW stuff *is* re-branded or a copy of something similar (usually better and cheaper...), so I thought I would ask here for suggestions. :)
Yeah, I suspect that's exactly why it's hard to find... :?
It's rather nice on silvers though. You can do it with a "normal" blue wash/ink, but it doesn't have the same vibrancy. I didn't want to start a new project with a distinctive colour that would run out before the end!
I'll have to try a blue ink wash over silver. I often use silver on fighters in space games, gives a '60's MiG like feel. Please let us know if you find a good aw& an ink match which works.
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Just a bump, and also a picture to be clear about the colour/generation of ink that I'm looking to match:
(http://collector-info.com/Manufacturer/GAW/GAWPAT/GAWPATPAI/IMG/GAWPAT%2047360%20-%20Sky%20Blue%20Ink%20%5BPot%5D.jpg)
:D
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I had a look, but all I have are their inks in the dropper bottles.
I'm not sure if they're before or after the screw top ones, but they have sensible names like "blue", "red", "green", so I suspect they were before lol
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Still wish I could help! Can you put up a swatch or give a description? If you've tried P3 turquoise as a substitute, does that mean it's a cool blue? I wonder if W&N cobalt blue (http://www.winsornewton.com/uk/shop/inks-and-drawing/drawing-inks/drawing-inks-cobalt-0-47-us-fl-oz-14ml-bottle-1005176) or D-R turquoise (http://www.daler-rowney.com/files/inks-FW-acrylics.gif) would be suitable. (the latter, and liquitex inks, are described as pigmented and lightfast)
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I think I had that one but it certainly has dried out ages ago, being in the worst screw-top pot ever. lol PP turquoise is notably greenish indeed. Nowadays I'm mostly using some Vallejo Model Air tone for more bluish shades, including my official Cultist Blue. With matt or glaze medium it makes a good, neutral blue wash. I can check the exact tone later if you're interested. There may be other blue or turquoise washes and inks in my collection too as I use a lot of them, but I'm away from them at the moment. Please remind me later. :)
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Thanks for the continued assistance chaps!
The inks were actually the only "paints" (along with the glazes - remember those?) that had straightforward names. Sky Blue was presumably named such to prevent anyone thinking it might have an greeney tones in it (which it doesn't). :)
Vermis' suggestion of D-R Turquoise is the closest so far from the looks of things, but I'll try and get a swatch done tonight, along with some other comparable non-ink colours to give a better idea of hue.
Normally, I make a wash or glaze out of normal paints with various acrylic mediums and some clean water. However, for this project I am looking at painting a lot of metal (for speed - WHFB armies are big!) and the translucency of the inks is better here as it lets all the metals sparkle through the colour filter quite well with little or no dulling. This in turn means that I can cut down at least one pass on every model (double-good as I hate painting with metals), but it does also require enough to do a whole army with - which where I've come unstuck. ;D
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I was in a shop today that stocks all three brands - Winsor & Newton, Daler-Rowney, and Liquitex - and when I shook them up I was reminded that the latter two acrylic, pigmented types can be compared to thin acrylic paint. They're not going to be very opaque if you brush on a thin layer, but the way their light blues went very milky makes me think you could get a slight verdigris effect if you wash them heavily. A wee bit like some other inks from miniature paint ranges I've tried.
On the flip side, you can see right through a bottle of W&N's canary yellow ink. (I got a bottle when I heard that GW wash comparison, and because GW didn't produce a bright yellow wash at the time. I still have a comparison pic from when I tested the then-new washes, here (http://www.cheddarmongers.org/prod/pic/Vermis/scifi/Washed+Gaunt.jpg.html)) Granted, you can't see through the bottles of other colours! But then that's the same as the few old screwtop inks I still have (transferred to better containers!) and they don't have... fillers, or white additives, or whatever it is that makes the other two brands milky.
And on the topic of lightfastness: unless you display your minis on an open shelf that gets direct sunlight during the day, or even strong display light, I think your paintjobs will be fine. ;) I doubt that GW, or any other range of miniatures paints or inks, are especially archival quality either, anyway.
I dunno. It's your call, if you want to put a wee bit of outlay on a bottle or two of any brand. Anyway, I picked up a bottle of W&N cobalt blue just 'cos, and I remembered I also had a bottle of blue bought in ages past for some forgotten reason, squirrelled away in a box with old sprays and other rarely-used paints. ;D I haven't painted up any comparison swatches yet, but just from opening the bottles and having a look I think blue might be slightly cooler.
The last thing is, if you go for W&N and have quite a bit of metal to wash, you might want to see if the larger bottles offer better value per ml. At £3.50 for 14ml the wee ones make GW's current prices seem reasonable! Or maybe that's the shop I visit - it does tend to put a hefty markup on things.
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vermis, it's not just your shop, winsor and newton are very much a pricey brand :) (although whether it's worth it depends on what it is you're buying from them.I'm looking at you "watercolour" sketchbooks and winton oil colors!!)
Generally tho, W&N specialist or artit grade stuff is of a high quality and very long lasting,after all, it's in their interest to make materials that last a long time so that works produced with them don't degrade before they can get their name associated with the artist.
i keep my miniatures on my windowsill and my painting desk and easel both face the window, and i haven't had any issue with W&N or gw inks & paints fading.
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vermis, it's not just your shop, winsor and newton are very much a pricey brand :) (although whether it's worth it depends on what it is you're buying from them.I'm looking at you "watercolour" sketchbooks and winton oil colors!!)
Heh. I looked at the W&N watercolour field box (http://www.winsornewton.com/uk/shop/water-colour/water-colour-sets/cotman-water-colours-field-box-12-half-pans-set-0390639) in the same shop, last week. (Looks a bit more portable than the one (http://www.winsornewton.com/uk/shop/water-colour/water-colour-sets/cotman-water-colours-field-plus-12-half-pans-set-0390374) I got cheap) Wasn't prepared for the price! Though that is only the 'budget' cotman set, not the professional artist's quality (http://www.winsornewton.com/uk/shop/water-colour/water-colour-sets/professional-water-colour-field-box-set-0190685) one.
That said...
Generally tho, W&N specialist or artit grade stuff is of a high quality and very long lasting,after all, it's in their interest to make materials that last a long time so that works produced with them don't degrade before they can get their name associated with the artist.
Them and Michael Harding oil colours are what I stock up on. ;) I really should try to use them some time...
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On the subject of lightfastness; I agree that it's not normally an issue, and less still for me since the varnish I use is UV-resistant. However, I was hoping to avoid varnishing the metals on these figures in order to avoid them either going dull or looking wet. Looks like I will just varnish as normal and the re-do a final highlight at the end. :)
As far as colours go, it's interesting to note how coy some of the descriptions are when describing the transparency of the different colours.
So far, I feel that FW Acrylic Inks Turquoise (http://www.artsupplies.co.uk/colours-fw-acrylic-inks.htm) might be a reasonable bet if I keep the layers thin (which I usually do), and the price seems acceptable for 30ml (which is probably enough for the army, and I can buy more if I need it anyway).
Winsor & Newton Cobalt Blue (http://www.artsupplies.co.uk/colours-winsor-&-newton-drawing-inks-14ml-bottles.htm) looks too dark for my purposes, but it's hard to tell. I think it would offer the best translucency though.
Liquitex offer Ink! (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Liquitex-Professional-Acrylic-Turquoise-Deep/dp/B0026439GK/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1403259647&sr=8-2&keywords=turquoise+drawing+ink) in turquoise which looks promising, but I am concerned about how opaque it may be.
...I never thought it would be so hard to match an ink! :-X
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A small update: What I'm using is actually VMC 938 Tranparent Blue. It's...well, thin and partially transparent, but for ink-like behaviour I thin it down even more with mediums. If a mid-turquoise tone is needed, I mix it with the P3 ink. This may sound tricky but I sort of enjoy experimenting and ending up with slightly varying tones, which in many cases add realism. If every mini is a little bit different, there's no harm done if one specific colour is discontinued. :D
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A small update: What I'm using is actually VMC 938 Tranparent Blue. It's...well, thin and partially transparent, but for ink-like behaviour I thin it down even more with mediums. If a mid-turquoise tone is needed, I mix it with the P3 ink. This may sound tricky but I sort of enjoy experimenting and ending up with slightly varying tones, which in many cases add realism. If every mini is a little bit different, there's no harm done if one specific colour is discontinued. :D
Since I have that blue, and my friend has the P3 ink, I might try that! Thanks. 8)
My main concern here is that I am block-painting 20 models at a time, and I would prefer that the colours do match well - it's otherwise a fairly monochrome scheme, so small differences do unfortunately jump out more. For similar reasons, I want a colour straight-from-pot or a simple 50:50 ratio mix for speed. Normally though, I'm not this picky or colour-mixing adverse!
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Winsor & Newton Cobalt Blue (http://www.artsupplies.co.uk/colours-winsor-&-newton-drawing-inks-14ml-bottles.htm) looks too dark for my purposes, but it's hard to tell. I think it would offer the best translucency though.
W&N's own swatch looks even darker, but the inks thin down or spread nicely from dark to light. Here's another bit of a swatch:
(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3843/14510945933_6cfc6ea96b_o.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/o7hoEZ)
White primer (gesso) half painted over with CDA enchanted silver (their lightest silver, = GW's old mithril silver). Top two bars: heavily washed blue and thinned blue. Bottom two: heavily washed cobalt blue and thinned cobalt blue. Both thinned with water and a drop of flow aid. (ye olde Klear floor polish, which was probably unnecessary anyway.)
In practise the cobalt blue was cooler, and both seemed a bit cooler still over the metallic paint. I think I used about 1:1 water when thinning, but I don't think they need thinning even that much: just avoiding an overloaded brush and brushing it on steadily could work, although thinning will be useful if you want to slap on a wash. (I had to reapply the thinned blue over the metallic half too, to make it show up better)
It goes on nice 'n' even too, which is why there were comparisons to GW washes. Any blotching and pooling there is due to me reapplying and 'puddling about' too much.
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I use the W&N inks, mostly for mixing into paints rather than washes. I would have thought that Cobalt Blue would be a good match, though my Sky Blue was used up years ago so I can't directly compare. I do vote for the usefulness of the W&N inks though! They are worth the price.
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Quick thread-necro with an update (since the info may be of use to others!)
I ended up buying FW Acrylic Inks Turquoise (http://www.artsupplies.co.uk/colours-fw-acrylic-inks.htm), and transferred it to a plastic dropper bottle.
Whilst it was a good colour, the opacity was a bit too much for going over metal paints.
However, I came to use it again recently, and found that it had settled in the bottle. Rather than shaking it up, I just used the clear ink off the top. Success! It was the correct colour and perfectly translucent just like the other inks we're all familiar with (and it mixes just as well with other inks and paints too).
So, if you need a colour-fast acrylic ink, consider the FW acrylics and just let them settle first to result in a clear tinted ink that you can use. :)