Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => The Second World War => Topic started by: lou passejaire on 23 July 2014, 05:37:52 PM
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i have problems with most of the early war french models !
- french artillery and weapons crew are the only artillery and weapon crew depicted in the Warlord - Bolt Action range as wearing A FULL KIT, even when firing their guns ...
it's stupid . have you ever fired a field gun , a mortar or a mmg wearing a backpack , ( and a heavy greatcoat in late spring ) ?
(http://i39.servimg.com/u/f39/11/63/95/43/art10.jpg)
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It looks more like poor research on the part of the figure manufacturer. Most photos show them wearing light kit and sometimes gas mask satchels.
(http://www.ww2incolor.com/d/453725-2/french-soldiers-firing-against-germans-dunkirk-may-1940-second-world-war-2-two-ww2-amazing-pictures-photos)
(http://www.ww2incolor.com/d/690332-2/French_002)
(http://www.ww2incolor.com/d/330586-2/155sedan)
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Damn, I'd LOVE to find figures that look like the ones in the last two photos.
I wonder if you could bash something together using the Woodbine Adrian-helmeted heads (which look nice) and a basic tunic+pants+puttees getup body. Anyone know of a good idea for bodies for that? Seems like there must be SOMETHING out there that's adaptably generic enough.
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Good idea Framframson !! woodbine british gunners with adrian helmeted heads from same range ??? but they are shirt sleeves ......GWM are too much "british " with webbing .....GWM french artillery men with woodbine helmets ?
best regards
paco
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Interestingly, I've noticed that British WWI webbing isn't too far off French WWII webbing. The waist pouches are a bit of a different shape, but I guess it depends on how much of a purist you are.
The main difference is that British WWI uniforms have the two large breast pockets, whereas these French tunics look to have no pockets?
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i'm thinking to use scarab miniatures ww1 french gun crew :
(http://scarabminiatures.com/images/FR014.jpg)
just have some questions about the adrian helmet ... but some headswap ... ???
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Question for you folks - what colour would those tunic jackets have been? French greenish-khaki, or the older blue?
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folks, the tunics are wrong for WW2.
have a look at the woodbine british artillery men, they are as generic as can be: shirtsleeves, pants, puttees, boots and suspenders. Choose any heads You like and they are right. Only problem could be the shells.
watch my thread, You will soon se them painted up, although not for WW2.
for tunics you need fold down collars
btw, I believe that only the large calibre gun picture is WW2, not the others.
edit: hihi, how stupid of me, the name in the first picture is a clear hint - I wonder how much of that kit is US?
and to answer the question, the uniform would have been moutarde, unless for reserve troops wearing old horizon blue - beweare of "greenish khaki", it tends to be too US-olive
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So where do soldiers in interwar light kit fit? Assuming they were kitted out in leftovers from WWI, (be it in horizon blue or moutarde), what sort of tunic would have been worn under the greatcoat? Fold-down collars for sure, with french collar insignia, but with pockets? Without pockets?
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in blue without pockets, in moutarde both options
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Moutarde like Grey Poupon?
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close enough for the summer hue, more brownish in the darker winter hue.
it should not be too green.
a bit like salad diarrhea
winter
(http://www.planetfigure.com/attachments/moutarde-khaki-overcoat-m19-jpg.157092/)
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in contrast, this is an old colonial cachou, and not the summer moutarde
(http://www.planetfigure.com/attachments/5-photo-jpg.157080/)
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which would look more like
(http://i43.servimg.com/u/f43/16/33/65/77/figuri60.jpg)
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the british khaki has more brown, the russian has more green, and the us tan has less color saturation.
But the green is always the first pigment to fade...
nothing for the colour blind....
addendum: all made worse by the fact that the french army used a lot of ww1 US surplus stock cloth....
And I don't know if the WW2 moutarde was different from the earlier one, because the pictures suggest that, it often looks reddish to me...???
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folks, the tunics are wrong for WW2.
have a look at the woodbine british artillery men, they are as generic as can be: shirtsleeves, pants, puttees, boots and suspenders. Choose any heads You like and they are right. Only problem could be the shells.
watch my thread, You will soon se them painted up, although not for WW2.
for tunics you need fold down collars
btw, I believe that only the large calibre gun picture is WW2, not the others.
edit: hihi, how stupid of me, the name in the first picture is a clear hint - I wonder how much of that kit is US?
and to answer the question, the uniform would have been moutarde, unless for reserve troops wearing old horizon blue - beweare of "greenish khaki", it tends to be too US-olive
the jacket is the comon uniform for artillery men and cavalry men (because they use to ride or to make moves for loading )even if they have a particular coat for rain or snow ( a 30cm cut with buttons at the low back for riding on horse) , the "capote" (ie coat) is for infantry men and is the main (and only!) uniform for campaigning. Most of 30's and 40's photos show garison troops or second line ones (1939 phoney war); in jackets and not fighting troops on the battle field (unfortunatly they had no time to take photos in may and june 40 !!! )
but this is a realy aplied rule to wear the capote as a fighting uniforme, and in campaign, the french soldier has only a half blanket for the feet, the capote making the difference for the up part of the body!
The woodbine british artillery men are perfect for desert countries or western june 40 front , but for the narvik project we have with Lou passejair, they are a bit "undressed" :D
on the three photos, i think they could have been taken in 1940 or just before the war , the first and fourth ones show a 1922 or 1938 jacket with flat colalr, the second one show 1926 helmets ; they wear the definit kaki, more darker than mustard one . The third photo with artillery men (most have the 1915 helmet) show the gaz mask patern 1931. as the artillery men have keep horizon blue very lately ( the most part of new kaki uniforms was distributed for mobilisation!) it is a 1939-40 photo!
The difference between mustard 1915 kaki and "darker" 1935 one is real . In 1940 there is no long mustard as the african troops were the first to receive the new kaki (some sergnets keep some mustard uniforms for ""parade dress " with new color stripin , brass buttons etc ...) th e "metropolitan" troops kipping horizon blue until 1938-39. at the mobilisation, kaki suit were genraly distributed for all troops ! the french kaki is very close to the british early WWII one!
Some horizon blue uniforms were used at the end of the campaign for third or fourth line troops (is there still a front line ?) but with a olive drab kaki over suit on ! (they look like more modern with there olive drab simple jacket and pants than kaki "poilu" with putties, capotes etc .... ;D!!!!) but no first or even second line troops fought in horizon blue in 1939 - 1940! it is a myth !
best regards
paco
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ah, THX for the clarification!
Do You have an example for the 1940 khaki?
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but for our narvik project, i have not seen a single photo of a single capote ... i have seen some officers in cape ( chasseurs alpins officers ), some "royale" officers in coat, some 342 CACC rank and files in what seem's to be overalls .
and not a single capote .
there is an example for the 1940 khaki ( and it's not quite different from the British one )
(http://www.musee-infanterie.com/images/upload/fiches/924446391ccbbf553c098d68b749164b.JPG)
( and the "vareuse" ( jacket) worn by the sergent was worn, for exemple , by "corps francs" and other "elite" units, and even civilian clothes ... )
I hate all those french infantry and artillery models in full kit ! ;)
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it's hard to tell in the light - it appears a bit lighter and more reddish than the british khaki....
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i think that its the lights . but it's a real 1940 uniform . and green pigment fades a lot .
british khaki is a little on the red side
french khaki is a little on the green side
i think that this re-enactors group photo ( with no problems of artificial light ) show the perfect new uniform french khaki .
(http://www.onesixth.co.uk/ref-data/reviews/french/1940inf/poilu-3.jpg)
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oh, well, it's different from moutarde, that's the important thing - which shade of caca it is doesn't matter in the end ;)
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the jacket is the comon uniform for artillery men and cavalry men (because they use to ride or to make moves for loading )even if they have a particular coat for rain or snow ( a 30cm cut with buttons at the low back for riding on horse) , the "capote" (ie coat) is for infantry men and is the main (and only!) uniform for campaigning. Most of 30's and 40's photos show garison troops or second line ones (1939 phoney war); in jackets and not fighting troops on the battle field (unfortunatly they had no time to take photos in may and june 40 !!! )
but this is a realy aplied rule to wear the capote as a fighting uniforme, and in campaign, the french soldier has only a half blanket for the feet, the capote making the difference for the up part of the body!
The woodbine british artillery men are perfect for desert countries or western june 40 front , but for the narvik project we have with Lou passejair, they are a bit "undressed" :D
on the three photos, i think they could have been taken in 1940 or just before the war , the first and fourth ones show a 1922 or 1938 jacket with flat colalr, the second one show 1926 helmets ; they wear the definit kaki, more darker than mustard one . The third photo with artillery men (most have the 1915 helmet) show the gaz mask patern 1931. as the artillery men have keep horizon blue very lately ( the most part of new kaki uniforms was distributed for mobilisation!) it is a 1939-40 photo!
The difference between mustard 1915 kaki and "darker" 1935 one is real . In 1940 there is no long mustard as the african troops were the first to receive the new kaki (some sergnets keep some mustard uniforms for ""parade dress " with new color stripin , brass buttons etc ...) th e "metropolitan" troops kipping horizon blue until 1938-39. at the mobilisation, kaki suit were genraly distributed for all troops ! the french kaki is very close to the british early WWII one!
Some horizon blue uniforms were used at the end of the campaign for third or fourth line troops (is there still a front line ?) but with a olive drab kaki over suit on ! (they look like more modern with there olive drab simple jacket and pants than kaki "poilu" with putties, capotes etc .... ;D!!!!) but no first or even second line troops fought in horizon blue in 1939 - 1940! it is a myth !
best regards
paco
Hm! All very good and useful information.
So if you had local veterans or reserves (probably infantry rather than artillery) called for something temporary (natural disaster, keeping order, etc.) in 1935-36, what would the odds be of their being dressed in horizon blue? I mean, I think you could probably paint either and be fine for game purposes, but I'm curious about what - if anything -would be "correct".
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not so simple....
the moment France mobilizes the whole army once the german leviathan is on the march, any reserve unit in horizon blue could be in the line of fire of the blitzkrieg. But I would be inclined to agree with our french experts here and keep it khaki in 1940 in the field
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expert ? no, i'm not old enough ... it takes 300 years to be an expert in french army ;)
may be because of system D ( which is "give me a canon de 75, an old american truck, and i make one efficent AT gun )
but system D was a mater of intelligence of low rank officers, Nco's and mechanics .
regulation was the lack of intelligence of the old fossils of the staff ...
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not so simple....
the moment France mobilizes the whole army once the german leviathan is on the march, any reserve unit in horizon blue could be in the line of fire of the blitzkrieg. But I would be inclined to agree with our french experts here and keep it khaki in 1940 in the field
But in '35?...
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in '35 there was no mobilized wartime army, only the small peacetime army, so no need to use old stocks....
and don't expect anyone to wear horizon blue in the colonies outside the garisson.
Although I could imagine semi-military police to wear old uniforms in africa, but I don't really know.
There was a revival of the pre WW1 uniform in the 30ies, but only for ceremonial duties and mainly for officers
what is it that You are asking around like a fox circles the hens? ;) ???
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Moutarde Khaki is probably best then! lol
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oh, come on, tell!
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But I did already in the other thread! I'm trying to figure out what to use for interwar "call-up" troops: Veterans or local recruits rung up for natural disasters, controlling unrest, etc. I like the lighter kit (such as what the artillery men were shown with and I'm sure infantry possessed) rather than the full campaign greatcoat for that.
I will probably be converting some British WWI figures. That seems like the easiest way.
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what other thread?
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I don't remember!
I could swear I typed it up and mentioned it somewhere, but maybe I'm wrong and I didn't say after all! ;D
EDIT: Here it is http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=69139.msg838971#msg838971
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Great now I want to sculpt some Frenchies too...
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if you want to sculpt frenchies, try to bring us some long awaited minis :
interwar meharistes ( camel mounted and dismounted and don't forget FM24/29)
(http://i39.servimg.com/u/f39/11/63/95/43/cst10.jpg)
early war tirailleurs sénégalais as seen in "Force L" actions in Koufra and western desert ( and don't forget 81mm mortar, FM24/29 and hotchkiss MG ).
(http://i39.servimg.com/u/f39/11/63/95/43/rmt10.jpg)
and mechanized infantry as seen in north africa and syria
(http://i39.servimg.com/u/f39/11/63/95/43/rmsm10.jpg) .
it's a niche market but ...
;)
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very nice new!!!
"meharistes" and senegalese would be a very nice range, unproducted anywhere !
(with 24 /29 LMG , Hotchkiss Mg and mortars !)
best regards
paco
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I was actually thinking of sculpting or converting legs with serouals and nails for Artizan or other figures....
In the end, one only needs a few mounted meharistes for patrol and many kneeling camels, because the fighting is done dismounted.
But I will definitely use SCW moros as substitutes for certain Armee d' Afrique troops.
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Working on it......
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Working on it......
please explain
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Kickstarter. No pics at the moment as the sculptor has had problems unrelated to work and is about to go on holiday. 5 figures have been sculpted but I'm waiting for them to be painted before anything else happens. French in short sleeves and shorts, headless with Adrian's, sun hats, kepis, senegalese and bachi as a customer choice - like Gripping Beasts French section.
Stretch goals:
Command/support (hmg and mortar)
Mounted mehariste
Troup speciales
Malagasy/Vietnamese troops
Artillery crew
Spahi
Possibly tirraileurs from Morocco and Tunisia. Perhaps dismounted spahi/mehariste/troup speciales
But the launch is delayed until life stops interfering with the sculptor.
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wow! for WW2?
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so, admittedly WW1 related, but here are a few pictures of the 1er RAM that provided me with new ideas and usettled my preconceptions
(http://www.alpins.fr/artillerie_65_de_montagne_1.jpg)
(http://www.alpins.fr/artillerie_groupe_2eme_regi.jpg)
(http://www.alpins.fr/artillerie_mulets.jpg)
so, who can tell something about the white(?) tartes?
Also, apparently, the colonial units had started to wear tartes too...
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or this amazing one
(http://static2.akpool.de/images/cards/100/1007862.jpg)
does this mean that in Morocco one could put on just any kind of hat?
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Before 1914; french army use to practice giant excercices (army corps level) called "grande manoeuvres".
One army corps was the "red" , the other the "white". the red corps wore it head gears just as they were (so red kepi for red corps) the other put white over head gear (kepi, "tartes" or cuirassier helmet etc .....it doesn't matter the shape evry type of troops had it own desogn of white cover ! )
So before 1914 every units of teh french army had white covers in case of "grande manoeuvres" , not only the FFL ! (it ended with the great war !)
in 1914, the General head quarter , by a lightning of lucidity (!) , order to blueish all the white covers for infantry kepi , to hide the red colour!!!!
Mountain artillery was part of morrocan troops before 1914 as was the 14° "Bataillon de chasseur alpins", from 1913 to 1914.
In 1900 during the china expedition (pekin relief colomn) , "colonial regiments from 9° and 10° regiments were dressed with mountain equipments ("tartes", blue sash, pull overs , long capes ) for winter season in northern china. Som times ago the colonial service decided tio equiped all colonial troops serving in China and Indochina, with "tartes".
In 1915, all the french infantry was equiped with tartes (horizon blue for line infantry, dark blue for chasseurs or colonial troops) those "tartes" lived only one year , and were changed for a simple "bonnet de police" .But some photographs show "tartes" in 1917 and even in 1918.
In 1918, troops for the russian campaign were dressed like there conuterparts in China with" tartes " . The tartes staued in service in China until 1940.
best regards
paco
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f****g question ;)
pics of 1st RAM in Morocco with black/blue tarte 1913
and a pic of the 1st RAM in Aréches ( metropolitan france ) 1911 ( even if i have some doubts, the gun barrel does not look like a 65 de montagne ) .
the "fatigue uniform" is "white" but i have not found an answer for the white tarte . But Pacofeanor has answered :D
or this amazing one
(http://static2.akpool.de/images/cards/100/1007862.jpg)
does this mean that in Morocco one could put on just any kind of hat?
for that, i have an answer , yes ! the regulation is often less important during the wars ...
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wow, that was comprehensive!
merci beaucoup!
OK, so I understand, white only on manouver, otherwise dyed somehow - this might also be the reason for the various "white kepi cover" pictures...
( even if i have some doubts, the gun barrel does not look like a 65 de montagne ) .
look closer, you can recognise the typical breech block together with the clamps for the recoil buffers