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Other Stuff => General Wargames and Hobby Discussion => Topic started by: eilif on 24 August 2014, 05:10:03 PM
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Probably preaching to the choir, but after getting into it on a certain other forum, I finally sat down and typed out my feelings on painting -or the lack thereof- and the importance of maintaining certain minimum hobby standards.
http://chicagoskirmish.blogspot.com/2014/08/painting-matters-in-defense-of-hobby.html#comment-form
And of course just to drive the point home we've included some pretty pictures of miniatures as well.
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Probably preaching to the choir
Ayup. :D Well-said that man!
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I do appreciate that picking up a paintbrush and starting on a mini is a daunting task, and I've had painter's block a number of times, so I'd never turn someone away from my table because they had an unpainted army.
However... a painted game just looks better and I don't field unpainted models. There are so many fast-painting techniques that look good, and I use a lot of them to get tabletop results on an army. Washes, staining, drybrushing and the dip all make a model look good, but in truth even a neatly pained model in block colours is brilliant. Spray your space marines in a base colour and you're mostly there!
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I agree and disagree.
I personally don't put unpainted on the table.I will play against unpainted/halfpainted armies though.The difference for me is the type of game.
When I get together with a clubmate or go to a store to play a 2000pt game of 40k I could care less if his stuff is painted,though if at the club he will still catch a lot of good natured grief from everyone if its not.
If we make a scenario for a multi player game and plan out the terrain and back story for it then I want everything to be painted.Mostly because this game will be for spectical as well as having fun playing.
So I think,yes, there are different opinions about what is and isn't "the hobby".
This topic actually split our club up a little and we lost a few people a couple years ago.We didn't have large numbers before and now its even harder to get enough people together to play.
Pete
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This topic actually split our club up a little and we lost a few people a couple years ago.We didn't have large numbers before and now its even harder to get enough people together to play.
Pete
Sorry to hear that, it's rough when a club loses numbers.. Out of curiosity, was it the painted-only or unpainted-ok folks who left, and where did the club end up as a standard.
As it says in the essay, our club is painted-only, but we've been that way since the beginning and we always provide models for beginners and guests, so it's never really been an issue.
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The unpainted guys felt like they were being looked down on and some feelings got hurt apparently.
It all started when we planned one of the scenarios I was describing and the unpainted crowd were all ready and excited to play,then the organizer decided he would supply painted models for all the forces involved.
I think it would have been no big deal if he had simply said from the beginning he was going to supply the models for a scenario "would anyone like to play?"
There were some other remarks made,I heard, that POed them even more.
There is stil one guy who plays with halfpainted armies but he is a slow painter, his finished stuff looks nice though and I'm not about to tell him to lower his standards for me.He does make more progress everytime he shows up.
Then there is another guy who gives everything he uses a good base color scheme so there is color on everything then finishes the details later.His stuff looks good when finished as well.
The remaining 3 of us(yep that's all that's left) only use painted figures.
Pete
Oops almost forgot my nephew! Being my nephew he also only plays with painted figures ;) So that's 4 of us.
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If they're your toys, you can do what you want with them. If you prefer to only play with painted mins on both sides, again, that's your choice but don't be surprised when that limits your number of playmates.
I think this sort of rule is easier to impose when it's a tight group of mates who appreciate the incentive and will all enjoy the games that much more. But I think it should be a handshake agreement, not some sort of passive-aggressive way of forcing other potential members into (your idea of) the true path.
Personally I wouldn't want to game with unpainted mins, but then the spectacle is a big part of the fun for me. It would spoil my enjoyment more to feel I'd been less than courteous to another member, than it would to see some unpainted miniatures on the table.
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I don't see the point of playing the game if it doesn't look good. Therefore I would never use unpainted miniatures. What other people do is up to them but I reserve the right not to join in if I think I won't enjoy it (just like sex, religion and politics).
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There are many elements to this hobby. To act like you are better than another person due to the fact you like painting and they do not is a little silly. Some people just like the gaming side that's fine. These people would probably buy pre paints if they could so they Could just get on with the game and play.
I don't know anyone who wants to be applauded for not painting their models, I think that's a clear strawmen people just don't want to be looked down on or judged for enjoying the gaming and not the painting.
Are we going to start looking down upon people who buy terrain instead of making it too?
Yeah painting is cool, it's fun and it's great to see other peoples work but I imagine many of us already have to few other gamers to play with let's not make that worse by imposing some self proclaimed standard we can use to look down upon people who don't meet it. You don't want to play with or against unpainted minitures? That's fine just don't be a dick towards those who would rather game than paint.
This by the way is coming from a guy who is into this hobby for painting primarily where gaming is mere afterthought, I have no desire to field unpainted units. But I am also aware that some people don't like painting.
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There are many elements to this hobby. To act like you are better than another person due to the fact you like painting and they do not is a little silly. Some people just like the gaming side that's fine. These people would probably buy pre paints if they could so they Could just get on with the game and play.
I don't know anyone who wants to be applauded for not painting their models, I think that's a clear strawmen people just don't want to be looked down on or judged for enjoying the gaming and not the painting.
Are we going to start looking down upon people who buy terrain instead of making it too?
Yeah painting is cool, it's fun and it's great to see other peoples work but I imagine many of us already have to few other gamers to play with let's not make that worse by imposing some self proclaimed standard we can use to look down upon people who don't meet it. You don't want to play with or against unpainted minitures? That's fine just don't be a dick towards those who would rather game than paint.
This by the way is coming from a guy who is into this hobby for painting primarily where gaming is mere afterthought, I have no desire to field unpainted units. But I am also aware that some people don't like painting.
Thank you, Sir,
This thread seemed to make me feel like I should leave LAF because I paint slowly and prefer to play than paint. How dare I let Real Life, family, friends, other interest interfere with my painting...
Isn't this hobby small enough without unnecessary exclusiveness?
Gracias,
Glenn
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Yes, there are many reasons why gaming with painted miniatures is more fun, but I did not read any of them on that blog, only highbrow exclusiveness towards those who can't or don't paint that much. I would prefer a more solidaric approach and more inclusiveness - we are few enough, no point in sending others away.
Helping them and convincing them is a better approach - I myself used to belong to those who don't mind unpainted miniatures, and I learned the value of it, but by positive example, not by dismissive attitude.
However, lack of solidarity seems to have a certain spread in the hobby, and that blog contribution stands for that attitude. I would not want to belong to such a group, and I would not be surprised if that kind of people end up alone with a large painted collection but noone who want to game with them....
btw, I am doing this hobby for the last 25 years, and I met many, but I know of only a handful of people who have painted all of their painted miniatures by themselves - I would roughly estimate that barely 30% do not buy painted miniatures. Are we going to look down on those who can't paint well and have to buy them painted? Or ist it about the size of the purse that allows some to have huge painted collections? Let's pick some other categories for exclusiveness.....
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For me personally (!) painting and building is more important than gaming. But the initial reason for gaming with miniatures is to have a visually appealing game. In that sense you get a better game with painted minis than with unpainted. People who say they hate painting are in the wrong hobby IMHO. I wonder, why they don't just stick to boardgames and cosims with chits instead of minis? In the end it's about the love for miniatures. And painting a miniature is the most love you can give it. In return you get the reward of an even better looking mini and can be proud of it when presenting it on the table.
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I think that noone should be confined to having others define their hobby.....
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I think that noone should be confined to having others define their hobby.....
But that's what clubs are about with their statutes and hierarchy and everything. One reason why I don't like any clubs.
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My mother was a maid - she told about "clubs" and why "our kind" wouldn't be welcome there.
Not much difference here it seems to me, just a smaller group of elitists...
Sad.
Gracias,
Glenn
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Also, no ginger beards.
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I agree and disagree.
Pick one, you must. Middle ground, there is not.
(http://jasoncstanley.files.wordpress.com/2011/09/yoda.jpg)
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So for the "painted only" chaps, what's the minimum level? Base colour other than white or black? Would you accept a figure painted as a chess piece in ivory or red (with a wash and highlight), or painted as different metallic colours (again, base, wash+highlight)?
Do you treat every gaming night as an "event"? I've seen a lot of GW tourney types play a new unit with chits before committing to buying the unit, so not everyone does - a game can be a practice or "just to try tactics". Is it a "precious time" thing?
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no middle ground between encouragement and bullying? sad world....
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Thank you, Sir,
This thread seemed to make me feel like I should leave LAF because I paint slowly and prefer to play than paint. How dare I let Real Life, family, friends, other interest interfere with my painting...
Isn't this hobby small enough without unnecessary exclusiveness?
Gracias,
Glenn
There's room for everyone Glenn! There's a table here with good chat, a single malt whisky, and your figures are welcome too.
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That shouldn't matter between friends.
That.
I like to paint a little, its good for the soul it seems. But.
what we choose and how we choose to do it is our personal choice. If with that we find ways to exclude others, regardless of the justifications felt, real or imagined, our little worlds get smaller. But that is personal choice.
as you say room for everybody, and everybody should get to reasonably do as they wish with their hobbies, however, this to me, as a damned slow painter (thanks real-life), is a little to harsh.
If someone is playing with unpainted, ok looks a bit meh, but they are playing! If that player is or becomes a friend, I am not pushing them away, I will if need be help with the paint!
Better to get the game than not at all.
Most importantly better to keep a friend. The friend can play with my minis or cardboard cut-outs for all I care. Lets play - and the chat over whisky sounds damned good to.
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Thanks to all those who commented, both in favor and against.
I think a few folks may have taken offense where none was intended, though I did take a deliberately strong tone in the essay. Perhaps some clarifications below will help.
no middle ground between encouragement and bullying? sad world....
At our club I think we have a great middle ground. For every game we play, we make a point have enough figures amongst the club members to provide a painted force for anyone who wants to game. we discuss each game night ahead of time on our yahoo group so we know who is bringing what. This is easy for games like Song of Blades, but even on the occasion that we play bigger games like 40k or Kings of War, we can get an extra army or two or split our armies to let the newbie have a force. The door is always open to visitors and newbies, but the table is only open to painted minis.
So you could say that we walk a line of trying to include everyone, while maintaining high standards for our games.
Unless they were for some reason very insistent on putting their own unpainted miniatures on the table, I don't think anyone who posted on this thread would find our club to be an unwelcoming place.
So for the "painted only" chaps, what's the minimum level? Base colour other than white or black? Would you accept a figure painted as a chess piece in ivory or red (with a wash and highlight), or painted as different metallic colours (again, base, wash+highlight)?
Interestingly, we've never had to define this. Probably because in the four years that the club has existed no one has ever tried to break the "spirit of the law" by putting figures on the table that appeared unpainted. The exception being some in-progress minis now and then. Folks who are in the club know that painted minis is a shared value of the group and so far we haven't had anyone who deliberately tries to bend the rules.
My minis are base coated, dipped and sometimes drybrushed, many of us have figures that were not painted by ourselves (often we paint for each other to avoid burnout) and we even have some games where we use rebased prepaints, so I think it's fair to say that we're not elitist regarding the quality of the paintjobs.
Do you treat every gaming night as an "event"? I've seen a lot of GW tourney types play a new unit with chits before committing to buying the unit, so not everyone does - a game can be a practice or "just to try tactics". Is it a "precious time" thing?
That's a very good question.
We meet every other week, and I guess we kind of do view the club night as an event. There's usually (though not always) one ruleset that everyone is playing, often several games simultaneously. Many times this is part of a campaign. We're reasonably laid back about the competition aspect (though we're all playing to win), so you won't find alot of pre-playing for tactics. For us it's possibly best summed up that we're a bunch of (mostly) 30 somethings with jobs and real lives, when we get together to game, we want the best experience possible.
Put another way, most of us feel that when your gaming time is limited, "Life's to short to play with unpainted minis".
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Can't... mustn't... DARE NOT field unpainted minis. Never had to play against anyone that didn't paint their minis though. I guess I would be compelled to paint them for my poor, sad friend that didn't paint. If I saw them on the table I'd be all... If ....I can just.... get to...my...paint....utility belt....!
Oddly, the better I think I've painted a squad, the sadder I am when they loose!
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Nothing against unpainted figures here. No one WANTS to use em but sometimes you may want to get playing sooner. At least you will eventually see more of the forces painted as games go by, and the games keep up the inspiration to paint!
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I paint slowly and prefer to play than paint.
Me too. I've fielded a few unpainted minis in my time (in fact I don't think I've ever played a game of Malifaux with a painted crew) but always with the goal that they'll be painted sometime. In my view, and what I took from Eilif's article, is there's a difference between slow painting, and people I've seen who chop minis off the sprue and slather them in glue as quickly as possible, but keep fielding them as grey armies because they're 'gamers not painters'.
One club I attend, at most once a month, has a kinda-informal painted minis rule. (or guideline, if you will) Minis preferably need at least three colours, at least for the occasional joint project 'event' game, rather than regular friendlies. The other guys manage it, and have the advantage that they usually already have a few regiments painted up for the agreed period or army. The problem is that a few of them are some of the most atrocious painters I've seen. But they don't mind, and get it slapped on quick for the big game.
It does leave me at a disadvantage, usually only contributing a small number of minis and pulling my hair out for a couple of nights before the game. Though that has a lot to do with my own regrettable tendency to procrastination, and I can't really bring myself to disagree with the rule. It is relatively easy to fulfil, particularly with minis that've been started off with a basecoat, skintones, a couple of metallics etc. My first historical army upon joining the club was anglo-saxons, and painted like that to the approval of the other club members (I never finished them before selling them on), and I whizzed through the basecoats of a small Warmaster high elf army, with the intent of going back and filling in all the shading and highlights later. But, as the club members usually say, it doesn't make much difference halfway across the table. What'd look odder is if they were all just bare metal glinting back at me from across the table, a few months later.
I don't think it's very elitist: we're all in the same boat (I think I have more time on my hands than some of them), we discuss what would be realistic goals for each of us, and we egg eachother on. I know I need that last activity meself, or the ol' hobby butterfly would drag me away from getting pretty much anything done, let alone painted up.
Our next joint project is a 15mm Waterloo game for the bicentenary. I have a year to paint up two divisions for Napoleon's Battles (just over 100 figures?) in as sloppy or as neat a paintjob as I like. It doesn't make me feel oppressed, or bullied. The "thou shalt not shun the paintless mini lest thou embody all society's ills" attitude feels more oppressive to me.
(often we paint for each other to avoid burnout)
You monster.
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You monster.
lol
Yeah, we're really bad people, what with all our helping and sharing and encouraging….
Seriously, though it's been a big help for me. I've been building a KoW army largely from Battlemasters figures and it's mind numbing painting 20-40 identical sculpts. However, I'm quite fast (and pretty good if I may say) at making terrain, so I've done several exchanges where I build (or rebuild a stalled project in some cases) a piece of terrain for other members in exchange for them painting up 10 or 20 line troops.
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Interesting.
There are many branches of 'wargaming' and not all of them overlap.
My wargaming hobby does not include, for instance, re-enacting, competition games, tournaments, Games Workshop games, or playing with unpainted figures.
Your wargaming hobby may include any or all of the above.
Neither of us is better, we just have different interests that often seem similar but really aren't. A bit like golf and cricket, both involve hitting balls with sticks but...
I have no interest in getting involved in the 'similar' pass-times I've mentioned above for my own very good reasons but I don't look down on the people who do. I just don't join in their hobbies. I don't play golf either.
I have found there are plenty of people interested my version of wargaming, many of them frequent this forum.
Do what you want, when you want, how you want but don't tell me I have to change what I do to fit in with you because I'm not trying to fit in with you and I don't want to.
If, however, you want to try out my version of wargaming I will give you all the help and encouragement I can.
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This is an ancient topic that has been hashed to death over and over again at The Miniatures Page. Sadly, it occurs in model railroading as well. :(
I say its a strange little hobby. Enjoy it as you will. Matakishi speaks wisdom!
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I have mostly avoided this problem because the only people I have to play with depend on me providing the minis and terrain. I will not typically play with unpainted figures.
If someone else told me they wanted to have a game and had only unpainted minis, I don't think I'd mind. Whoever it was that said you want to see them put in some effort has it right on. If your army has 100 figures in it and you just paint 1 dork per game, I'm okay with that - just show me a little effort, that's all. If not, I suppose I'd still play, but after a while I'd probably start offering to loan out one of my own painted armies (I never get into a game without having supplies for at least three players - even without having to supply other people, I'd simply get too bored playing the same army/team/force all the time).
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we just have different interests that often seem similar but really aren't. A bit like golf and cricket, both involve hitting balls with sticks but...
A very different way of putting it, but very apt. I think I do sometimes feel in my gut that folks playing with grey hordes are participating in an entirely different activity. I can't totally deny that they are "War Gaming", but I am loathe to validate what's happening on that colorless table with the same term used to describe the visually arresting activity that I and generations of miniature wargamers before me have enjoyed.
For the record, I like your version of wargaming, but that's probably because it matches up with mine.
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Also, no ginger beards.
This. Well said as always.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=QJ882QYzr-M
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no middle ground between encouragement and bullying? sad world....
'Fraid not. You're either with us, or against. You either have a sense of humour, or you don't. You won't just wake up one day and "get one". It's all very black and white, I'm afraid.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-23kmhc3P8U
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https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-23kmhc3P8U
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I'm afraid You will have to elaborate on that. what do You mean?
either painted or not, or
either inclusion or exclusion.
because the latter is the actual point for me. I don't think anyone wants to game with unpainted miniatures, the point is how we get there...
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I'm afraid You will have to elaborate on that. what do You mean?
either painted or not, or
either inclusion or exclusion.
because the latter is the actual point for me. I don't think anyone wants to game with unpainted miniatures, the point is how we get there...
I don't think it matters. Not one bit, really.
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I agree with Matakishi. Well put.
This debate is old as the hills. it would be nice to be able to have the discussion in a measured, civilised way, without immediately reaching for perjorative, inflammatory words like 'looking down on', 'exclusivity' and 'bullying'.
Wargaming is a visual hobby. We are all attracted by the 3-D visual appeal of playing games with little representational men on miniature representational landscapes. If we didn't all feel the draw of this visual appeal, then presumably we'd all be playing games with counters on maps instead. Which a lot of us do as well. But that's a different genre. But please let's not pretend 'what it looks like doesn't matter', because plainly it does matter. Otherwise we wouldn't bother playing with figures on terrain at all.
So then it comes down to the compromise between the level of visual representation people are happy with, versus what they are capable of achieving.
I understand completely that some people don't have the time, patience, eyesight, ability or 'eye' for painting figures or making terrain. Not everyone can achieve the same standards in everything they do. So if you're happy playing wargames with unpainted figures on a subbuteo cloth with bits of cardboard for roads and books for hills, go ahead, that's your choice. As it's my choice not to. Because it doesn't look as nice. And if we accept miniatures wargaming is, de facto, a visual activity, then the way it looks matters.
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Some 30 years ago I joined a big club in a city. It was the norm for people to use unpainted figures. One member brought the same unit of Mini-Figs cavalry to every game. They were not painted at all & the riders were blue tacked into their saddles. They were not even the same time frame. He had Romans through to ACW. If we were playing Ancients they were 'elite' guard cavalry. Napoleonics, the same. ACW & they became Confederates with shotguns. Science Fiction, no problem, the Valdurians are here. Fantasy, well is it not obvious? The Pegasus fighters are here (riders having been removed). Dragoons in the ECW ? Mounted=riders tacked on, dismounted=riders pulled off.
Whilst I could admire his imagination, the MAIN reason unpainted troops had florished was lasyness. A few, mainly among the youngsters, had no idea about how to paint nice (not brilliant) figures.
I and a few like minded souls, fed up with other members ALLWAYS borrowing units & not treating them with respect, took action. It turned out that the club had not had an AGM for over eight years!!! One was called, things were changed:-
The committe was a totally unworkable 22 members!!! We reduced this down to 5 & had to meet at least 4 times a year, the 22 had never met to dicuss club stuff;
We used club funds to subsidise (not give away) figures for a campaign (the period was voted for by the members) You could buy as much OR as little as you wanted, BUT could only field what was painted & based. If you wanted to be in charge of a brigade then fine. It was also fine if you just wanted to field one cannon & crew. No-one was allowed to 'borrow' figures foe the campaign games, which were once a month;
We started painting sessions & little competitions to encourage people to put paint on the figures;
At the end of the first campaign (at the next AGM) members were trated to a prize giving ceremony for those who had taken part/been a good sport/ been heroic etc. The club was very keen to do another campaign in a different period.
At no time was anyone told they couldn't play their OWN games with unpainted figures, but about half way through the first campaign it was very rare anyone brought unpaint stuff to the table. Figures from the first (& later campains) continued to be used & thus the club built up a reserve of painted & based figures.
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I haven't read the article as it's on a blog (I tend not to read blogs as I prefer forums) but I will add that I really don't care if people paint or don't paint their figures. But I do. Because I likes it that way: minis, rules, terrain - the works - I pretty much want it all the way I likes it.
I don't belong to a club but I do occasionally (and not nearly often enough) play with like-minded gamers who enjoy a visual treat that is the product of their time, imagination, ambition and ability (and, to some lesser extent, budget).
I regard each persons' hobby as their own. It's as simple as that really.
Putting on what I regard as a visual treat takes a certain amount of commitment that I enjoy committing because I am doing it for myself. If others enjoy that ride or can help me improve it then great, I like that too.
I find it strange when accusations like bullying, exclusivity and elitism get thrown around because - to be frank - it sounds too much like people feel a right or a need to belong to something they don't actually share the mindset of.
It's a hobby: do it the way you want to with people who want to do it with you the way you want to. ;) :)
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I also agree with Matakishi's sentiments.
When I play I at least field the block-painted miniatures and expect the same from my opponents. When the table next to me has unpainted figures on it, I don't care.
Is it wrong that tournaments stipulate painted armies, are they being exclusive? Not in my book.
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So for the "painted only" chaps, what's the minimum level? Base colour other than white or black? Would you accept a figure painted as a chess piece in ivory or red (with a wash and highlight), or painted as different metallic colours (again, base, wash+highlight)?
I certainly would, and encourage it. Generally I think that looks better than someone who doesn't enjoy painting being forced to follow something like the fabled "four colour rule". It's generally what I do as a first step to each model/unit, in case I never finish it.
I think the easiest way to make a "grey horde" army look decent is to undercoat black and drybrush two lighter shades over the top and pick out one or two main colours (such as metal for weapons). Same goes for washing colours over a light/white undercoat. All you need is some inexpensive artist's acrylics and a fairly large brush and can be done in an afternoon.
I guess some people might want to keep some sort of resell value, though I'd rather part with organs than miniatures, so I wouldn't know much about that.
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I guess some people might want to keep some sort of resell value, though I'd rather part with organs than miniatures, so I wouldn't know much about that.
That's a factor I hadn't thought about. I'll bet that painting or the lack thereof is affected by some folks' desire to keep the re-sale-ability of their figures. The plastics that form so many of today's armies aren't as easy to strip as their metal forebearers. (though I've stripped hundreds)
Still, it probably does reflect a sad sort of transience in the hobby and the codex creep that encourages folks to quickly acquire an army and then divest of it as a newer army becomes the "it" force. That's not a pattern that will encourage painting.
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I don't think this is going anywhere except towards the production of weapon-grade insults, so... starts with t and rhymes with rocked.