Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => Medieval Adventures => Topic started by: guitarheroandy on October 05, 2014, 09:30:56 PM
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So, I finally cracked and decided that I should get in the plastic medieval minis lark and figured that the best place to start would be with Dan Mersey's Lion Rampant rules. Then I needed to decide on which Medieval era to go with - WoTR or something earlier.
Anyway, I have decided that plastic figures being what they are, by far and away the best are the Perry WoTR range. And a couple of chaps I game with regularly have WoTr models... So, I headed to Mr Mersey's blog where he had posted about building plastic armies. It seems from this that I need to buy a box of 'bills and bows' to create myself 2 units of 12 longbowmen and 1 unit of 12 billmen. No problem on that score then...one box of bills n bows it will be...
However, I also need some elites... One unit, actually... Do I go with a box of Mounted men at arms or would the foot chaps in the new Foot Knights box be better historically speaking? I don't know very much about the period (although I am keen to find out more), but there seems to be an awful lot more of chaps hacking at one another on foot with smaller groups of mounted chaps waiting to cause mayhem and misery at the appropriate time rather than the grand knightly charges of earlier periods (is that right?)
So, given the scale of conflict replicated in Lion Rampant, I figure that a box of foot knights might be a more historically based approach to give me a small bunch of elites (?)
Would those of a more medievally minded persuasion please care to chip in and assist so I can go and place the order for rules and troops? :D
Thanks muchly in advance...
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Andy have you seen the excellent work on Boardgames Geek's site with regards to using these rules for the WOTR? You can either have a look yourself or I could send you a copy.
Jeff
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I haven't visited there for ages! Will pop on over for a look! Thanks for that! :)
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Andy, you're strangely at exactly the same point I am! :)
I'm initially working towards a 24 point army and have pretty much gone the same way as yourself. 2 units of bow and 1 of bill with an elite unit of men at arms on foot. Actually picked up the knights at Derby today. Couldn't find the bow and bill box anywhere..
I'm intending to use experienced bow or sergeants as household troops, with standard bow and sergeant as regulars and yeomen as levy.
I think the mounted knightly charge was a little rare especially towards the end of the wars (unless you were Plantagenet of course..), with the role of light cavalry, or prickers, being more of a mainstay.
Darrell will be along in a minute though. And he knows a lot more than me. ;)
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You'd be better off with the new foot knights. Most WOTR battles saw the nobility, gentry and other fully-armoured professionals fighting in the front line, on foot, alongside their less well equipped troops - to stiffen their resolve and provide leadership from the front, one assumes. Full-blooded charges by mounted knights were rare in set piece battles (Bosworth being a notable exception) - mounted troops were basically used for pursuits, harrying, scouting and so on. But rarely front-on in battle.
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You'd be better off with the new foot knights. Most WOTR battles saw the nobility, gentry and other fully-armoured professionals fighting in the front line, on foot, alongside their less well equipped troops - to stiffen their resolve and provide leadership from the front, one assumes. Full-blooded charges by mounted knights were rare in set piece battles (Bosworth being a notable exception) - mounted troops were basically used for pursuits, harrying, scouting and so on. But rarely front-on in battle.
That's what I thought. Thank you! I shall place an order for bills n bows and foot knights from the Perrys forthwith! :D
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Hi Andy,
I wrote the Boardgame geek WOTR lists which should get you going. Arlequin has also posted excellent details on his blog using Lion Rampant for the WOTR so between us this info should give you a good head start.
http://arl-med.blogspot.co.uk/2014/09/lion-rampant-wars-of-roses.html
Cheers
Happy Wanderer
PS ...love your blog....great work ;)
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Hi Andy,
I wrote the Boardgame geek WOTR lists which should get you going. Arlequin has also posted excellent details on his blog using Lion Rampant for the WOTR so between us this info should give you a good head start.
http://arl-med.blogspot.co.uk/2014/09/lion-rampant-wars-of-roses.html
Cheers
Happy Wanderer
PS ...love your blog....great work ;)
Thanks very much! :D I'll head on over to Arlequin's blog later. I have found the Boardgame Geek resources, so I'm all set. Rules should arrive this weekend, models on Monday!
I'll be in touch if I need any further help if that's ok?
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While in a major battle the men at arms would fight on foot, at the large skirmish level that Lion Rampant is set at, would that still be the case?
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"I'll be in touch if I need any further help if that's ok?"
Not a problem. The rules have proved quite flexible and the possibilities of use of the Perry plastics are many....as you can tell by Captain Blood's threads on LAF.
I shall watch your army painting progress on your blog with interest.
Cheers
Happy W
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While in a major battle the men at arms would fight on foot, at the large skirmish level that Lion Rampant is set at, would that still be the case?
Personally I'd say no, I would imagine that as we are not talking big battles, they would be mounted or dismounted as the situation demanded... but then again the same would be true of the higher status archers and others below the 'gentry'.
However for a taste for the era, a box of 'infantry' and some 'foot knights' is good enough start. Options can always be expanded if when Andy gets the bug. ;)
You'd be better off with the new foot knights. Most WOTR battles saw the nobility, gentry and other fully-armoured professionals fighting in the front line, on foot, alongside their less well equipped troops - to stiffen their resolve and provide leadership from the front, one assumes. Full-blooded charges by mounted knights were rare in set piece battles (Bosworth being a notable exception) - mounted troops were basically used for pursuits, harrying, scouting and so on. But rarely front-on in battle.
Says the man with more knights than the House of Lords. lol
Actually, I'm sort of undecided myself on this. Blore Heath 'appears' to be much like a sort of English Crecy and of course we have no eyewitness accounts of battles, only second or third hand sources, often somewhat removed in time too. The Tudors fielded a lot of demi-lancers/costrils/whatever as early as 1495, and I can't imagine they woke up one morning after 1485 and thought "Hey, you know what would be cool?" I suspect that there was a steady increase in the use of mounted men at arms, but due to cost the equipment of most got lighter and less complete over time.
I might not put money on that theory though. ;)
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Very nice project Andy, Looking forward to see the progress !
best regards Michael
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So the main question now is whether to paint the forces using the livery of an actual WOTR Lord or whether to just make something up. The advantages of the former are being able to use banners available from LBM which even have livery badges...(edit) have just realised the actual boxed set contains flags...hmmm...
The downside of this is that it ties me to a particular side and colour scheme. The upside is that it's easy to do.
If I design my own, I have to paint my own banner and coats of arms (although I suppose I could get away with just using fully plate armoured command figures to avoid the horror of a coat of arms on a 28mm figure)...
Decisions, decisions...
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I intend to stick with a general colour scheme to tie the troops together but to (initially) miss out livery badges.
I'm going with red and black which will historically give me a force for Percy or Stafford (probably a couple of others..). I'm going to give flags and banners a miss for this size of engagement. I'm aiming for 24pts.
The household troops and men-at-arms will get the red/black combo. Whereas less important troops will get a general madder red, ochre or orange uniform so that they will be easily distinguished on the battlefield.
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I can't ever field an army without at least one banner! :D
Also, I intend to try the Sharp Practice WOTR rule adaptations as well as Lion Rampant so I'll need to create a handful of 'big man' bases, one of which, as force leader will have his banner bearer on the base with him...
I guess I need to research what colour combos were used in the period then do something like you are planning so that the force can be a bit more multi purpose. Avoiding livery badges is therefore a good idea both from practical usability and from the point of view of retaining sanity while painting, as my eyes are nothing like as good as they were even 2 years ago...
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Greetings!
I am probably jumping on the Perry WoTR train with Lion Rampant as well and this topic has been really helpful.
I just have one question for those who are planning to build a force as I am. How are you going to visually differentiate the various types of troops? Household from regular, regular from levies? I assume they all would wear the same livery, perhaps not everyone among the levies (?).
Thinking about it, I will probably use the best equipped man-at-arms as household troops and those less protected as levies, with regulars standing in the middle, with a mixture of both.
Any other options you could suggest?
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If your going for a theme such as a symbol or colors. You can have the Household is bold sold colors, the levies with maybe only a patch or armband with the lords colors on it. And the regulars some where in-between.
And also as you said, full kit for the household, mixed for the regular and castoffs for the levels.
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The household troops and men-at-arms will get the red/black combo. Whereas less important troops will get a general madder red, ochre or orange uniform so that they will be easily distinguished on the battlefield.
As I said in an earlier post. I like the idea of using less armour in the levied troops too. Giving them a sort of 'peasant/just raised' look to them.
From a painting point of view I'll use a bold red and black for the men at arms and household archers and bill. For the regulars I'll probably plump for a faded look to the livery, using a duller red along with black and a few figures just wearing a dull red livery. For the levy I'll use a mix of madder red, dull orange and ochre to give them a slightly more rag tag look.
Obviously the same rules will work for other livery colours. :D
I hope that's of some help. :D
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I might be muddying the waters even more than I usually do, but you could give your levies 'bends', which were simple 'sashes' for want of a better word, in the Lord's colours. I did think that they were some sort of officers mark of rank at one time, but the Duke of Buckingham ordered a couple of thousand in the early 1450s, so seemingly not.
A bit fiddly to create perhaps but they will keep the un-liveried figures in with the colour scheme. The hang diagonally from the right shoulder (as a 'bend' would) and simply sewed or pinned where the ends meet (no knot as in later sashes I'm led to believe).
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Just as a thought Andy, you could always go the route of painting the force of a local lord. I'm only 20 miles from you over in Northants and there are quite a few choices (and probably a few more) after a little research. Just looking at the first battle of St. Albans we have;
-Richard, Plantagenet of Fotheringhay, Northamptonshire (Duke of York)
-Richard Harrowden of Harrowden, Northamptonshire (killed in battle)
-Thomas Roos of Rockingham, Northamptonshire
-Thomas Tresham of Rushton, Northamptonshire
Obviously it'll take a bit more work, and painting your own banners, but it'll give you a unique force. :D
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I'm from Suffolk originally, on the border with Norfolk, so was toying with your idea but making up or using actual people from there. However, there's probably more scope locally as initial research turns up little for Norfolk and Suffolk beyond the actual Dukes...
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Ah, my better half is from Suffolk, Framlingham to be precise, so I was tempted to go with the Duke of Norfolk.
But as I've lived in Northants the majority of my life I thought I might do a bit more research and go local. ;)
Working about 5 miles from the Bosworth visitors centre helps too.
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Well, I have done a bit of digging around and have found a few likely candidates from East Anglia...most of 'em largely Lancastrians by the look of it...and most of them seem to have red and white on their coats of arms, which at least would mean a co-ordinated force.
Will keep digging around a bit more and see what the alternatives are...maybe into Lincolnshire, as I went to college in Lincoln...
It's quite fun this, although it's not getting any models glued together... lol
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The Home Counties and East Anglia were the most densely populated areas in the 15th Century, so if you can't find something around there, there's no hope for the rest of us provincials.
;)
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It's quite fun this, although it's not getting any models glued together... lol
lol That is the drawback. I've got one bill built so far...
Just found a branch of the Harringtons who lived in Brixworth, Northants as well...
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I found some interesting stuff in Lincolnshire - some Yorkists with a rather fetching red and yellow coat of arms and Stamford's arms is a nice mix of colours, so that would look better than the straight red and white of much of East Anglia.
Then I got into local stuff...Huntingdon having a nice blue and red, with Peterborough having the gold keys on blue, so options there too.
I'm increasingly drawn to either Gainsborough & Stamford colours or doing something local with the Huntingdon, Peterborough and/or some Northants ones, as they'd all work together, esp for expanding the retinue for the Sharp Practice WOTR thingy in the Lardy Special.
I also seem to be heading for a Yorkist scheme, purely because most of the ones I have looked at had a more lively range of colours - I fancy madder, ochre and blue (probably Foundry Storm Blue) across the Sharp Practice force.
I'm thinking for that force I'd field 3 main lords/earls' retinues two of which have 2 x 6 models bow 2 x 6 models bill. The third replaces 1x 6 bills with 1 x 6 models foot men-at-arms. It could then be supplemented by additional bow, by mercenary pike/shot and/or light cavalry (once the plastics are available) depending on how I get on with it all. It's not actually a colossal extension from the basic recommended retinue for Lion Rampant either and would give me a few more options for that set too...
All of which has led me to the worrying realisation that this is a proper project!!!! ANOTHER proper project... lol
So, tonight, I may get out the craft knife and the glue and set to work on a few models...
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If you're leaning towards Yorkist sympathies don't forget you've also got Edmund, Earl of Rutland if you want to add a Plantagenet who isn't Richard III and also fairly local.
It's easy to get sucked in at this stage, those plastics are so versatile.. The good thing with the men-at-arms set is that once you've filled out the compulsory troop slots you'll have plenty left for character figures. I'm looking forward to the release of the light cavalry as I think in the smaller engagements they'll prove their worth.
You'll have a sound force for both sets of rules which is a nice added bonus.
I look forward to following your progress with the clippers and liquid poly. :D
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Hi Andy,
Really looking forward to seeing what you produce; I don't think there's any harm in choosing the colour scheme that you fancy painting (my first knights from my teenage years were decked out in my favourite green & white...should have been Tudors.) Lion Rampant in Nottingham has spawned a load of us looking up 'family' heraldry, though we are all going a couple of centuries earlier, Simon de Montfort etc. I have discovered that the Morris coat of arms actually features a 'lion rampant', so that's a done deal. Best of luck!
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I have discovered that the Morris coat of arms actually features a 'lion rampant', so that's a done deal.
Slightly more impressive than my stripes and shells.. ;)
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I have found two variants for the 'Hawes' surname (neither of which have the first thing to do with me, being descended from simple Suffolk country folk, like wot I am ;)) - the more impressive of which has a blue background with 3 (yes...THREE!) gold lions and a gold 'wavy line' across the middle (sorry...I have no idea what the heraldic name for one of those is...how embarrassing!!) :?
Very tempting to use aspects of that design and create a fictional 'Earl Of Peterborough' perhaps using the blue background and then adding gold keys and/or a gold lion... :D
Anyway...enough of this...clippers, craft knife and glue time!!!!
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I just used the names of the local medieval manors in the area of the Surrey countryside around where I live.
20 minutes research in your local library with old maps and a good local history book will cough up a whole load of evocative manorial names, and the surnames and titles of the landed families who once occupied them. If you trawl around the local churches, you can often find small, painted, family coats of arms too, for futher inspiration. I copied a couple of these, although mostly I made up liveries for my assorted cast of local magnates... All good clean inventive fun :)
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That's a good idea...
I have just found basic coats of arms for my own surname and that of my in-laws plus various other extended family folk, as I was getting bored trying to chase 'real' ones from the period. I may now borrow your idea of finding local manorial names and just stick the whole lot together and see what I come up with... :D
And I didn't get any models stuck together tonight either ::)
Must try harder...
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Just tapping into this thread as my Percy Retinue is already up and running.
Had a quick look at Arlequin's excellent blog which I shall be revisiting shortly.
Our resident Teutonic Knights player was bemoaning the fate of his mounted MAAs yesterday as they kept being led into traps by lesser types ie everybody else.
Looking forward to seeing your work Andy
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The thread is defiantly inspiring. I nearly cleared the desk to put everything on hold to start my own retinue. I was strong though and resisted but have plans to begin in the New Years instead.
Like the idea about theming the retinue locally. Either were I grew up in Cheshire or where I liklve now in Birmingham
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Like the idea about theming the retinue locally. Either were I grew up in Cheshire or where I liklve now in Birmingham
Hi Chesh,
If you're interesting in having a historical based retinue you might want to consider having it themed around the Lancastrians at the Battle of Blore Heath. The majority of the force were from Cheshire with elements also from the west midlands. The battle, the first major open pitched battle of the wars, is of interest as it had cavalry charges, clever use of terrain etc. The field itself has changed relatively little of the years, if you're ever passing through the area it's worth stopping and having a look.
There also a useful website dedicated to the battle:
http://www.bloreheath.org/protagonists.php?ref=protagonists
Another bonus is that if you chose to represent the Lancastrain Lord Audley (James Tuchet, 5th Baron Audley) his son John Tuchet (6th Baron Audley) was a Yorkist and fought at the Battles of Mortimer's Cross, Barnet and Tewkesbury. So you can represent either side that takes your fancy.
Regards,
Matt
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Matt - wow vast amount of knowledge - thanks . I have to say my knowledge of the era is very sketchy. I haven't decided yet whether I want to do WOTR or late HYW yet. The new Perry English army set looks very tempting.
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You're in luck again Chesh, the latest Perry plastics HYW could be used for playing the Battle of Shrewsbury, again with a strong Cheshire element involved - they got around a lot ;)
First time in a major action that English archers fought against each other with Prince Hal taking an arrow shot to the face - all very interesting stuff.
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Memories of Henry IV Part II from school ... lol
Twasnt Hal who copped it
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Hmmm sounds like lots of fun research coming up.
Very tempted to dive straight in with the Perry's stuff. Surely can't go wrong.
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Cheers for the plug H.M.! Although I am making slow progress on an expanded series of posts about WotR armies and I forget that some people actually do read my stuff... ;)
For my money the Perry WotR range has it all (or will have once the 'light cavalry' set are out at least).
Matt's suggestion for Blore Heath gets my vote too, although there were also contingents from Shropshire and Staffs with the Lancastrians too (Lord Dudley was the 2iC iirc).
The Cheshire/Shrops/Staffs area is quite fertile ground for low-level 15th Century gaming (whether in the early 1400s or anytime after), being a particularly lawless region. To this was added the status of Cheshire as a palatinate (it was the judicial domain of the king alone - so effectively it had no law as such), which meant that fleeing into Cheshire effectively ended any lawful pursuit of wrongdoers by local law enforcement (posses raised by constables etc). It wasn't quite the Scots Border, but similar in some respects!
The area has quite a heady mix of noble families of both sides and some digging around on the internet will usually unearth details about the minor supporting cast too... I think there were something like 26 major gentry families in Cheshire alone and within them a somewhat bewildering array of associations by marriage etc, along with a fair degree of animosity in some cases too.
Birmingham I know little about and it was pretty insignificant back then... a small village centred on what is now Digbeth. Nevertheless like anywhere else in England, it would have its share of local families either allied or at loggerheads with the others, which meant that occasional violence sparked up as a result.
You can always make up your own families, but some digging around often turns up stuff you could not make up! :)
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Arlequin I look at your site yesterday very interesting!
I also had a quick look around the net last night and quickly discovered the Bostocks of Bostocks and Vernons of Shipbrokes which would fit lovely into this, but then got sidetracked reading about the eigh Norman barons of Cheshire! The above fit nicely as them and I both lived locally to Northwich. Vast amount of opportunities and that was only with an hour or so of looking.
As for Birmingham yes it was the poor neighbour to both Warwick and Coventry at the time. If I went down the Birmingham route I think it would be more fiction if made up families from the area I live in.
Hmmm
A historical Cheshire retinue and fiction Birmingham retinue, now there is an idea.
Andy - sorry for hijacking your thread it was totally unintentional
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Cheers! :D
Well you have a scenario there that was not uncommon straight away; a local balance of power being upset by an outsider gaining local land through inheritance/marriage. A Cheshire gent gains a manor in Warwickshire and gains a local enemy with a claim on the same land as well.
:)