Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => Future Wars => Topic started by: Brandlin on 29 October 2014, 10:36:18 AM
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I'm not sure how many of you might remember the following project from almost 5 years ago.
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-3gqtEexFvac/SluY06zH0XI/AAAAAAAABH4/sHRv4RzAv2o/s1600/dropshipwip42.jpg)
EDIT : Read all about it on the following thread on my blog - lots of pictures and more description. http://brandlin.blogspot.co.uk/search/label/Dropship
This is a home resin cast and scratch built Dropship model that I made for my hasslefree Grymn.
I always wanted to have a hollow one to put Old Crow vehicles in for deployment.
So i have started to do this.
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-oRM8r1rvS5E/VErkcdLatBI/AAAAAAAAEvs/NYlQik1Z_eM/s1600/SkeletonHullWithDoor2.JPG)
Intent is to laser cut the skeletal framework from ply/MDF and to wrap it in Styrene. A few additional components (such as the landing gear feet and vents and weapon mounts on the hull will be 3D printed (and possibly then resin cast).
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-bKYe6s7oHIE/VE0WmpBzTcI/AAAAAAAAEwc/iFv_BTtff0M/s1600/HullAssemblySkinned.JPG)
It has an opening and extending rear door.
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-nUrnGoufSB4/VEvphxlWpcI/AAAAAAAAEwM/QMg-j7jT-CA/s1600/RearDoorFrameAssemblyclosed.JPG)
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-k8qGBgCthAg/VEvoZAhpNDI/AAAAAAAAEwE/sy6Tl5vPuDE/s1600/RearDoorFrameAssembly.JPG)
and now also has retractable landing gear - Down and Up.
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-k_26cjuDa64/VE_8axOZ0gI/AAAAAAAAEw4/GnkKm_XrmVE/s1600/RenderLandingGearDown.JPG)
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-QopQkE6SIzI/VE_8a8URvRI/AAAAAAAAEw0/bU67YG9EUbA/s1600/RenderLandingGearUP.JPG)
Next job is to design and model the engine mounts to allow rotation and placement. And then to crack on with the cockpit.
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Very nice!
I am sure that it should prove very popular should you release it as a kit.
8) 8)
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Ooh; I recall that! 8)
Very nice, and I'm sure that, should you release a kit, it would sell well. I'm guessing that the Infinity crowd specifically would be partial to such a model...
I'm still planning on making a scaled up version of the Chickenhawk paper model (about 140%) in plasticard, with an accessible interior. Your effort might make my plans obsolete... ;)
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Thank you Mason and Daeothar,
I don't think this will be that popular as a gaming piece as its going to end up being pretty complicated - I'm already up to 207 pieces and I have the cockpit, engines, and surface detailing to do. I think I might be pushing the limits of lasercutting too as some of the components end up being pretty small.
Also for those used to working with plastic molded components this is likely to feel a bit rough and will lack the fine detail of a resin cast. Its also unlikely to be cheap.
IF i do sell any it's likely to be to those who like a challenge and are interested in modelling and customising.
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By god that is fantastic design work, really impressive. I third a kit if it's affordable for both you and the customer to do so!
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A little posing - with the Main hull sat on its landing gear and rear door open...
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-BNVHKDwpdag/VFDMnreVpaI/AAAAAAAAExQ/s8sm4kjZMu0/s1600/Posing1.JPG)
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I'd be perfectly happy with a kit of the solid bodied one ;)
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I'd be perfectly happy with a kit of the solid bodied one ;)
At the moment its about 1kg of resin... and only a prototype, with a number of issues to fix. If i get through the rest of this design, I may see if someone like Fenris can make a hollow cast of the prototype hull. Depends on demand
Thank you for your positivity - much appreciated.
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Totally missed the original project, but this has certainly reached bonkers stage.
Have to ask: was the original inspired by a Listerine container?
Doug
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I remember and I'm curious to see what follows. :D
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Totally missed the original project, but this has certainly reached bonkers stage.
You don't know me well then. This is still looking possible. Bonkers is only just poking its head over the horizon!
Wait for the rotating and poseable engines, the weapon hard points, detachable cockpit (so the pilots can ditch all the grunts when the going gets tough) the removable roof with the detailed interior and the underbelly missile racks with opening belly doors.
Have to ask: was the original inspired by a Listerine container?
Yes it was.
Hence this is the RESILIENT class drop ship (LISTERINE = RESILIENT anag.)
Try the following link to read all of the dropship history on my blog - lots more pictures and descriptions.http://brandlin.blogspot.co.uk/search/label/Dropship (http://brandlin.blogspot.co.uk/search/label/Dropship)
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You don't know me well then. This is still looking possible. Bonkers is only just poking its head over the horizon!
The possible can still be bonkers.
Wait for the rotating and poseable engines, the weapon hard points, detachable cockpit (so the pilots can ditch all the grunts when the going gets tough) the removable roof with the detailed interior and the underbelly missile racks with opening belly doors.
Strangely enough, I'd already factored about three quarters of those into my estimations.
Yes it was.
Hence this is the RESILIENT class drop ship (LISTERINE = RESILIENT anag.)
Try the following link to read all of the dropship history on my blog - lots more pictures and descriptions.http://brandlin.blogspot.co.uk/search/label/Dropship (http://brandlin.blogspot.co.uk/search/label/Dropship)
I've been thinking about several bottles for my Full Thrust in the Park game, but can never come up with something good for the front end. Will wander your blog laters.
Thanks!
Doug
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Very cool. I have considered, occasionally, talking to my buddy (laser cut guy) about creating some modular "ship" components to allow people to purchase and assemble (non-mobile) ships for boarding actions and other sci-fi games. Basically creating open-topped command sections, engine rooms, storage bays etc. Make them stackable etc.
I think what you've proposed is a good idea and could sell as a kit --- possibly replace styrene with heavy card stock to keep costs down. Looks great.
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Very cool. I have considered, occasionally, talking to my buddy (laser cut guy) about creating some modular "ship" components to allow people to purchase and assemble (non-mobile) ships for boarding actions and other sci-fi games. Basically creating open-topped command sections, engine rooms, storage bays etc. Make them stackable etc.
I think what you've proposed is a good idea and could sell as a kit --- possibly replace styrene with heavy card stock to keep costs down. Looks great.
Thanks for the positive comments Elbows.
As to the card stock, that really isn't possible in many places as the styrene is pretty much structural. It could be done in some areas, but the saving would be small as the cost of the materials is dwarfed by the cost of the time spent on the laser cutter.
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WIP Detail of the Engine Mounts, allowing the Engine nacelles to be attached by magnets and rotated to one of 12 positions for posing in flight or on the ground
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-Y1iYaEaXp8Y/VFFpBKeiwHI/AAAAAAAAExc/V1xLJpXwGrw/s1600/EngineMountDetail.JPG)
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Today's thought challenges:
- How to make the rear ramp longer to get a shallower open angle. An additional sliding piece looks necessary but that is going to make the door very very thick!
- Whether to mount both the engines close to the hull or to push the front engines out further so they dont eject into the rear intakes. Will anyone except me care? I'm trying to avoid the hunched shoulders look of the prototype where it became almost as wide as it was long.
- Whether to put a missile bay in the belly with opening doors. Will anyone want this? It wont be accessible with the model on the ground.
- Where and how to mount this to a flight stand. Especially if I mount it on a flight stand. Will anyone use it in flight?
- Whether to design the cockpit to be ply and styrene or resin cast - I'm not making it hollow, so resin would be easier however the weight will make the ship tip forwards to rest on its nose. Should I put a fifth landing gear under the cockpit?
Lots to mull over in my head and your views and comments welcome...
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My thoughts:
No fifth landing gear.
Shorter legs for a shorter ramp OR lower the hinge point so that the ramp is longer and lower.
No missile bay underneath (it's a transport and wouldn't have weapons... the escort ships would have those).
Resin would be the better option for the cockpit.
You just need an 'X' cut-out, under the fuselage for the flight stand (like on GW fliers) so it could be further forward to compensate for the resin cockpit.
I think the front engines should be further out than the rear ones... I would be bothered by the current configuration.
:)
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Engines: wouldn't make more sense to make the rear ones a bit larger; assume they are sufficient to propel the ship forward, the four engines are just required for balance in VTO_? Another possibility for the forward engines is vectored thrust at an oblique angle.
Straight swivel, I'd think the forward engines should be farther out to avoid blast effects on the rear pylon, but vectored would take care of that.
Doug
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My thoughts:
No fifth landing gear.
Shorter legs for a shorter ramp OR lower the hinge point so that the ramp is longer and lower.
No missile bay underneath (it's a transport and wouldn't have weapons... the escort ships would have those).
Resin would be the better option for the cockpit.
You just need an 'X' cut-out, under the fuselage for the flight stand (like on GW fliers) so it could be further forward to compensate for the resin cockpit.
I think the front engines should be further out than the rear ones... I would be bothered by the current configuration.
:)
Thanks Inso Should have known I'd get a full response from you!
Engines: wouldn't make more sense to make the rear ones a bit larger; assume they are sufficient to propel the ship forward, the four engines are just required for balance in VTO_? Another possibility for the forward engines is vectored thrust at an oblique angle.
Straight swivel, I'd think the forward engines should be farther out to avoid blast effects on the rear pylon, but vectored would take care of that.
Doug
Thank You Doug.
In general my thoughts so far from my musings today have been
Resin cockpit, non detachable no extra landing gear.
Legs cant get any shorter to lower the ramp - its already only 5mm from the hull underside to the ground. (It really isn't a very sensible overall hull shape). However lowering the hinge point and making the door/ramp longer helps... i need to model the effect to see if it's enough, i think it wont be. A suggestion from the FOD is also to make the ramp slide out from under the hull... which would mean a chunk of redesign, but sounds interesting.
I like the underbelly storage/missile idea but you are right Inso unless its for carpet bombing the landing site then its not the weaponry this vehicle would need. SO i shall probably omit it.
It also means that attaching a flight stand should be easier - or more likely two Flight Stands, foward and aft - the sensible place to get them to mate/work is in the space on the 'bulge' between the landing gear. I quite like the idea of recessing a fairly large ring magnet into the hull skin, and then having an arrangement on the flight stand with a ball bearing that fits in the ring magnet so that the pitch and roll of the vehicle is poseable. :-)
As to Engines, I shall knock up some CAD models of a couple of options. Mostly this will be the following
Rear engines will be flush to the rear hull.
Forward engines - flush to the hull or extended outboard.
Forward and Rear engines same size or rear engines larger.
Both engines sets fully rotatable / poseable (it's no more work to make fully 360 swivels or just an arc)
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Rather than making the door longer, why not just mold steps into the backside of the door? Sort of what you see on some corporate jets where the door opens down and becomes a stairway.
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Rather than making the door longer, why not just mold steps into the backside of the door? Sort of what you see on some corporate jets where the door opens down and becomes a stairway.
Nice idea. However the rear ramp is for vehicles not just troops.
I have been wondering about putting troop doors on the sides of the hull. I MAY look at making them operable, rather than just surface detail. The problem with the design is that they would exit troops into the rear of the front engines... toasty!
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Just a few images to show the arrangement of the Engines. Note these are WIP at the moment. They will need to be detailed so they can be 3d printed and then resin cast.
I decided to go for similar shaped engines fore and aft for simplicity. I'm still debating whether to push the forward engines further outboard to prevent them from ejecting into the rear ones. I'll fiddle with it to see what looks and feels right.
The engines are shown here in the standard forward thrust position, but the mechanism allows them to be placed in any of 12 locations.
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-Fd88mH7yL6Q/VFNz62NomOI/AAAAAAAAExw/r9-fDfMF4uI/s1600/Posing2WithWIPEngines.JPG)
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-FeDrLh8mgpA/VFNz6nDI8DI/AAAAAAAAExs/IdOqr7RC2o0/s1600/Posing3WithWIPEngines.JPG)
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-820nA8J7Spc/VFNz6z6X2LI/AAAAAAAAEx0/8qIy8bdvkxA/s1600/Posing4WithWIPEngines.JPG)
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-4-polz3lBu8/VFNz7mwzbGI/AAAAAAAAEx8/hz-bpQl3m6g/s1600/Posing5WithWIPEngines.JPG)
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Nice idea. However the rear ramp is for vehicles not just troops.
I have been wondering about putting troop doors on the sides of the hull. I MAY look at making them operable, rather than just surface detail. The problem with the design is that they would exit troops into the rear of the front engines... toasty!
Now, I know that it will not go easy with the curved hull concept, but did you consider having the whole cargo pod floor slant down, like with the UD-4L from Aliens? A bit derivative, though.
Another option might be to have a sliding piece beneath the floor of the cargo compartment which can move outwards, then tilt down to act as a ramp. The door wouldn't actually be a ramp in that case, maybe have two parts swing outwards.
I've attached a quick sketch of how I imagine it to work. The edge of the compartment floor would need to be sloping down to match the extended ramp, as would possibly the outer edge of the ramp; and you'd need some guiding rails inside the compartment.
EDIT: Messed up the transparency.
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It's kind of a cheat, but what about making the ramp a separate piece that doesn't fold into the capsule? Just have it modeled in such a way that it looks like something that would fold up into capsule and leave a little bar or knotch at the capsules edge that it can be fitted into when the craft is set on the table.
Less moving and sliding parts is probably better for preserving paint jobs anyway.
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WestfalliaChris - thanks for your input. This is what what suggested over on the forum of doom and i mentioned above...
Legs cant get any shorter to lower the ramp - its already only 5mm from the hull underside to the ground. (It really isn't a very sensible overall hull shape). However lowering the hinge point and making the door/ramp longer helps... i need to model the effect to see if it's enough, i think it wont be. A suggestion from the FOD is also to make the ramp slide out from under the hull... which would mean a chunk of redesign, but sounds interesting.
Your sketch is almost exactly what i am playing with at the moment. The issue is size. In order to get the slides and the 'axle' to allow the ramp to pivot at the end takes a few mm. Assuming a 2mm brass rod 'axle' for example you end up with around a 6mm 'slot' for the axle to ride in, and I'm not only on the limits of structural rigidity for the materials I have but also tat 6mm comes off available door height as the floor raises. I think this IS the solution, but i need to see how I can get it lower in the hull and then redisgn the structure around it.
Thank you for taking the time to draw your idea so neatly!
It's kind of a cheat, but what about making the ramp a separate piece that doesn't fold into the capsule? Just have it modeled in such a way that it looks like something that would fold up into capsule and leave a little bar or knotch at the capsules edge that it can be fitted into when the craft is set on the table.
Less moving and sliding parts is probably better for preserving paint jobs anyway.
You are right -its a cheat. But something I might have to resort to :-(
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You could always increase the height of the cargo bay to keep the door height similar.
Also, with the ramp sliding out from below the floor, I assume the actual door will raise upwards rather than lowering so you don't have to worry about the hinge interfering with the ramp.
Now that you are veering away from resin casting your existing mouth-wash bottle, you are no longer tied to the same dimensions/shape so if you lessened the curve on the bottom and increased the side height, it would provide a bit more space below the floor.
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Yup lots of options. Importantly all of them require a lot of rework of the hull structure.
Time to play with blocks and basic shapes to get the geometry right before embarking on the quite large task of redesigning the structure... learning curve and all that.
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Yup lots of options. Importantly all of them require a lot of rework of the hull structure.
Time to play with blocks and basic shapes to get the geometry right before embarking on the quite large task of redesigning the structure... learning curve and all that.
Rome wasn't built in a day... but when it was eventually built, it was awesome :)
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Rome wasn't built in a day... but when it was eventually built, it was awesome :)
Rome didn't have me on the project :-p ;-)
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Okay, so all basic components sized and fleshed out. Surface details are still broadly to complete but you can get a sense of the overall scales etc.
Lots more pictures on my blog.
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-NnAF23-gGTE/VFY8Z7pElsI/AAAAAAAAEzI/dSsWfdvAaoQ/s1600/WIPComplete07.JPG)
Front View: shortened landing gear to make the hull feel squatter and reduce ramp angle.
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-wXRXOHd_na4/VFY-Tf0oSAI/AAAAAAAAEzw/7NwU2harPmM/s1600/WIPComplete12.JPG)
Side view showing Ramp angle.
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-Kla5CTMk3zg/VFY8btejj2I/AAAAAAAAEzc/yUEAGT3lNbM/s1600/WIPComplete11.JPG)
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As I said on the FoD, the ramp looks fine now.
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Inso's quite right, it may be a bit steeper than it would in real life, but it's still acceptable for looks.
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It looks pretty steep when its a render of immaculate white plastic, but if it had a diamond plate surface, step like indentures or ridges or some other grip like material. Not to mention looking less slippery I'm sure it will work fine.
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Looks pretty good to me :)
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Looks like a Space 1999 Eagle..... And I mean that in a good way.
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Looks like a Space 1999 Eagle..... And I mean that in a good way.
Finally got back to the thread, saw the last image, and was about to say this, then figured I best see the thread to current end. lol
Of course, this design is static, the Eagle had modules, and, biggest difference of all, big a** engines where our thread host wants his ramp.
Sort of an Eagle variant, something like the Hawk.
Doug
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OK, sorry for the delay
Thank you for all the comments.
Trying to address each of them.
Boxy vs Curvy.
Remember that my original intention here was to make a drop ship for my old crow vehicles. Their style is angular and has the raised panel details that you see on the cockpit. The Listerine bottle was merely a 'shape' that appealed to me. Oddly in CAD the boxy vs curvy nature of the parts stands out way more than it does on the real prototype. I think a chunk of that is because the prototype has panels and other surface features on the hull that sharpen the outline more. I do agree that as presented it doesn't look cohesive.
On the prototype the cockpit is scratch built from styrene sheet - and that drove a lot of the straight lines and boxy-ness. I REALLY like the cockpit, but that's probably because i was so happy with how the prototype came out. But I'm also pretty well wedded to the Listerine hull shape.
The 'Space 1999' feel was somewhat deliberate, as i discussed on my original blog build five years ago - homage rather than copy.
I have two options really.
1. Make the cockpit curvier.
2. Make the hull more angular.
For a hollow hull I'm committed to either making a laser cut model to be assembled or scratchbuilding the hull to be resin cast. I think the resin casting of the hull is probably a bit beyond my scratchbuilding skills and knowledge right now. The cockpit is almost certainly going to have to be cast - probably from a 3d print. If the cockpit is going to be 3d printed then curves aren't a problem. So, I think I shall go that route.
NOTE: I just scared myself by loading the cockpit model up to shapeways to get a quote - $65 in their low detail white flexible plastic. but $402 for the detial white plastic! Even hollowing this out only brings the price down to $270! It's only 70 x 50 x 80 mm!! Sheesh. Even the Landing Feet are $8 a piece! SO master print and then cast is the only way forwards.
Detachable Cockpit
The cockpit is and always was detachable with magnets. However this was only ever done because the way the prototype was made with the cockpit and hull cast as separate pieces it was the easy design decision. I am not going to redesign to cockpit to be a 'ship' in its own right, but there will be detail on it that you could pretend are thrusters so that you can claim its an escape pod or suchlike. Personally if i was procuring military equipment and the the design gave the opportunity for the fly boys to 'jetison' the troop carrying module to save their own skins, i'm not sure thats a feature i would buy!
Hull or Container?
I have always toyed with the idea of replacing the hull with a 'frame' and having a removable 'pod' (magnets again of course). The 'Frame' would follow the line of the bulges so the engines are mounted in the same location as current and can be vectored. A 'spine' would run across the top of the current Hull Linking the forward and rear engine 'bulges' in a kind of capital 'I' shape. This remains a possibility for a variant in future. It wasn't done with the prototype because the poured resin Hull didn't make it feasible. I like the squat practical shape of the current ship, but dislike the fragile nature of such a variant when the detachable 'pod' is removed. I would also have to solve the problem that the landing gear only fits in the hull not on the frame, so the vehicle cannot currently land unless it has the pod. Finally if the bulges are part of the frame rather than a hull then the pod shape is a pretty boring Thunderbird 2 type oval with flattened sides :-(
Scale
What I am going to do is play with the scale of the overall components. regardless of boxy/curvy I find the cockpit and engines to be a little on the small side, So they will get beefed up. Don't forget, as per the prototype, this has a pair of rear rudders to be cast and added. They quite significantly changed the overall dimensions and feel of the prototype.
I may also rescale the rear hull so that it accomodates something bigger than the old crow and Goanna scout vehicles.
(http://web.archive.org/web/20081020181753/http://www.oldcrowmodels.co.uk/25mm/gecko/geckopl.gif)(http://web.archive.org/web/20081020183332/http://www.oldcrowmodels.co.uk/25mm/goanna/goannal.gif)
I want to be able to get Gladius Medium Tanks and Glaive Medium APCs in it. As well as the modular vehicles that never went on full release that I have a number of... (http://brandlin.blogspot.co.uk/2013/02/old-crow-modular-vehicles.html)
(http://web.archive.org/web/20081020170417/http://www.oldcrowmodels.co.uk/25mm/gladius/gladtl.gif)(http://web.archive.org/web/20081020181156/http://www.oldcrowmodels.co.uk/25mm/glaive/glavtl.gif)
I think the Claymore Heavy APC will be a step too far, and the heavy Lancer and Sabre are bigger again
(http://web.archive.org/web/20081020164836/http://www.oldcrowmodels.co.uk/25mm/claymore/clayl.gif)(http://web.archive.org/web/20081020182127/http://www.oldcrowmodels.co.uk/25mm/lancer/lancertl.gif)(http://web.archive.org/web/20081020183742/http://www.oldcrowmodels.co.uk/25mm/sabre/sabreaal.gif)
Changes
I like the squatter/shorter landing gear so that's staying.
The ramp will slide under the floor of the main hull. (which means redrawing a very large part of the hull structure).
The rear door will still be hinged and i think i'm going to keep it folding down. The hinge wont be in the way of the ramp and the door and ramp will locate with magnets. This means the ramp doesn't need to have an 'axle' in the main hull to pivot. I have toyed with the rear door hinging at the top to keep it clear from the ramp and it might look cool, but it means having to include some for of 'prop' to hold it up and I don't want the fiddle.
Anyway that's all for now.
More waffling and WIP designs for comment as they come.
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The very detailed explanation makes this very interesting as a design project - thanks>
I very much like the design - and the Eagle tribute.
I might have missed it in the description, but I'd assume the engine pods would (in a real drop ship) rotate to provide thrust in the required direction. If these are cast separately, mounting these on magnets would provide a nice opportunity for dynamic posing. Hope to see this in the flesh resin. 8) 8)
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The very detailed explanation makes this very interesting as a design project - thanks>
I very much like the design - and the Eagle tribute.
I might have missed it in the description, but I'd assume the engine pods would (in a real drop ship) rotate to provide thrust in the required direction. If these are cast separately, mounting these on magnets would provide a nice opportunity for dynamic posing. Hope to see this in the flesh resin. 8) 8)
Thank you.
Yes the engines will rotate to provide vectored thrust.
I refer the learned gentleman to an earlier post here. http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=72288.msg881046#msg881046
And also to the original prototype approach on my blog here... http://brandlin.blogspot.co.uk/2008/09/drop-ship-xi.html
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Thank you.
Yes the engines will rotate to provide vectored thrust.
I refer the learned gentleman to an earlier post here. http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=72288.msg881046#msg881046
And also to the original prototype approach on my blog here... http://brandlin.blogspot.co.uk/2008/09/drop-ship-xi.html
That's what comes from not reading the full thread and following all the links :D
Thanks, that's brilliant.
The rear door - I guess a snap fit lock for the open position could be too brittle and prone to failure, am I right?
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That's what comes from not reading the full thread and following all the links :D
Thanks, that's brilliant.
The rear door - I guess a snap fit lock for the open position could be too brittle and prone to failure, am I right?
probably - and pretty hard to model in lasercut sheet.
Door will be held closed with small disc magnets.
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By popular demand... Some outline shapes for a curvier cockpit. We call this the Beyonce prototype.
More pictures on my blog.
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-3JkUebACAs4/VFqemc3q3LI/AAAAAAAAE0g/Z56_AjGNJuk/s1600/CockpitComparison06.JPG)
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-dQ4GPWty0hQ/VFqekVCAUUI/AAAAAAAAE0M/n4Ml_cu_oBY/s1600/CockpitComparison03.JPG)
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-RIE5RHrj-6Y/VFqekCgZGwI/AAAAAAAAE0A/lvU46X4FdoM/s1600/CockpitComparison02.JPG)
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-GorpPpTn4uc/VFqgA-FKytI/AAAAAAAAE00/i91UhvSJF4I/s1600/WithCurvyCockPit01.JPG)
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-qWFaXmlIp80/VFqgBIsoHqI/AAAAAAAAE1A/Iz9k-guN-o0/s1600/WithCurvyCockPit03.JPG)
Of course, now all those lovely flat panels that I was putting embossed details on to are either single or couble curvature so surface details will take a bit longer to add.
Comments welcome - particularly, is this an improvement? Not only is it curvier, but its also longer but not wider or deeper yet. But I have modelled it Parametrically so the whole design is only constrained by less than a dozen measurements so its very easy to rescale and fiddle with.
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I can't really opine as I prefer weird bulbous canopy-pods etc. I'm still following this with interest!
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(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-gRWIaXKDT0Q/VFu42VCJ8dI/AAAAAAAAE1Y/z9pDWQD7jag/s1600/CurvyCockpit01.JPG)
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-ipViLikYL48/VFu411M6PjI/AAAAAAAAE1U/OVVTSVs1lT0/s1600/CurvyCockpit02.JPG)
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Might I suggest something jutting out of the chin - the second pic presents a bit of "duck face" to me. :)
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Might I suggest something jutting out of the chin - the second pic presents a bit of "duck face" to me. :)
Nothing wrong with Duck Face!
I did try experimenting with some sort of headlights but it made it look like a bad sportscar. There are a couple of other things I want to do surface detail wise and a couple of things i need to fix too, so its not finished yet.
Meanwhile though, I have been doing this...
Now with curvier engines and details...
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-9_0KY2-yzH4/VFweolnUa4I/AAAAAAAAE1w/pCTRisP6_RA/s1600/CurvyEngineAssemblySIDE.JPG)
... and assembled to the still blank hull.
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-_G_iuX25JFw/VFwiK2fZuBI/AAAAAAAAE2I/39_3LedkcqA/s1600/HullAssemblyNew01.JPG)
A few more pics on my blog as always...
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The pod looks fine, and the 'duck face' would not be apparent when painted. I think it's the horizontal seam which creates that appearance, and that would be diminished when finished. The whole pod looks very functional with the added rear detail, and quite Eagley too 8)
The new engine pods are grand; they would also be very useful as a part sold independently of the lander. The outer plate on the pods gives loads of opportunity for bold colour schemes with large numbers or emblems, company markings or ust contrasting paint colours.
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As I am not an expert on aeronautical things, just wondering how that kind of engine set up would affect the flight capabilities of the vessel? If the two forward engines go at full blast, wouldn't they affect (most likely in a negative manner?) to performance of the rear pair of engines? /"realism" ;)
Interesting to see the progress, it will be quite a build.
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I would imagine the engines rotate on a coupling, and in normal space flight only the rear engines fire - where the forward engines are perhaps only used to escape atmosphere or lift off from a surface? Or perhaps during flight the front engines provide up/down attitude adjustment while the rears continue to propel the vessel.
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I would imagine that during any flight in gravity would see all engines rotated downwards enough to clear the other engines. No part of the vehicle looks like it would create lift from air currents, so even at top forward speed it would need at least some downward thrust to keep it in the air.
That being said I think that for me the engines could do with some vector thrusters on what is the bottom in these pictures, and maybe top if you want them to be symmetrical.
To me "duck face" is now the grunts name for this thing.
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The pod looks fine, and the 'duck face' would not be apparent when painted. I think it's the horizontal seam which creates that appearance, and that would be diminished when finished. The whole pod looks very functional with the added rear detail, and quite Eagley too 8)
The new engine pods are grand; they would also be very useful as a part sold independently of the lander. The outer plate on the pods gives loads of opportunity for bold colour schemes with large numbers or emblems, company markings or ust contrasting paint colours.
Thank you vanvlak. Glad you like. I have a little more to do to finish up the engines, but I'll keep an expanse of the outer plate clear as you suggest.
As I am not an expert on aeronautical things, just wondering how that kind of engine set up would affect the flight capabilities of the vessel? If the two forward engines go at full blast, wouldn't they affect (most likely in a negative manner?) to performance of the rear pair of engines? /"realism" ;)
Yes. They will. Which is why I've said before that the front engines may be moved out wards slightly to help prevent this. See the very first picture on this thread to see how that looked on the physical prototype.
I would imagine that during any flight in gravity would see all engines rotated downwards enough to clear the other engines. No part of the vehicle looks like it would create lift from air currents, so even at top forward speed it would need at least some downward thrust to keep it in the air.
That being said I think that for me the engines could do with some vector thrusters on what is the bottom in these pictures, and maybe top if you want them to be symmetrical.
To me "duck face" is now the grunts name for this thing.
This flies in much the same way as a brick. It's a DROPship. Orbital deployment. Solid enough to survive atmospheric entry. With enough raw grunt to stop the ship from burying itself in the planet's crust and then reach escape velocity for the return. It doesn't really 'fly' anywhere (in the aeronautic sence of the word).
The engines ARE vectored. As discussed earlier in the thread, each of the engines is poseable and rotates in place. This allows them to provide decelerating forces, 'in flight' forward thrust, directional control as well as VTOL capability. The 'gear' you see modelled on the engine side allows 12 different placements.
Thank you all for your continued comments. Much appreciated.
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This flies in much the same way as a brick. It's a DROPship. Orbital deployment. Solid enough to survive atmospheric entry. With enough raw grunt to stop the ship from burying itself in the planet's crust and then reach escape velocity for the return. It doesn't really 'fly' anywhere (in the aeronautic sence of the word).
Reminds me of a toy story quote. It's not flying, it crashing with style.
The engines ARE vectored. As discussed earlier in the thread, each of the engines is poseable and rotates in place. This allows them to provide decelerating forces, 'in flight' forward thrust, directional control as well as VTOL capability. The 'gear' you see modelled on the engine side allows 12 different placements.
Yea, vectoring isn't the word I was looking for. I was suggesting some smaller sub outlets on the sides of the thruster. I'm sure I have seen it before but can't find any pictures of what I'm talking about. >:(
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Reminds me of a toy story quote. It's not flying, it crashing with style.
Yea, vectoring isn't the word I was looking for. I was suggesting some smaller sub outlets on the sides of the thruster. I'm sure I have seen it before but can't find any pictures of what I'm talking about. >:(
I prefer Douglas Adam's approach. "Hurling yourself at the ground but being distracted at the point of impact and forgetting to hit the ground." :-)
I see what you mean about "side thrusters". I may play with the idea, but it's not top of my list.
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Tailfins ... as far as the eye can see...
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-f3xfOkeDxGE/VFzeQ4LV9HI/AAAAAAAAE2w/JLVpCSbiDIk/s1600/TailFin01.JPG)
... and assembled.
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-l901ccyhu2s/VFzhMgoesxI/AAAAAAAAE3I/XgU4O_MKoe0/s1600/WithTailFin02.JPG)
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-sOPS6yBYVNk/VFzhMTuwyuI/AAAAAAAAE3E/4mqo8hO_Vps/s1600/WithTailFin01.JPG)
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Does anyone else think that it looks like a platypus?
"In FedYear 83, the MarineCorp released specifications for a multi-use LOAB (Low-Orbit And Back) interface craft capable of putting 6 light squads, 3 mobile squads or 1 light armored vehicle on the ground. After a 3-year design competition, the Corps provisionally accepted the Sequoia Aerospace "MUDSX211", designating the first models in service the UDS-211B. The troops took one look at the 211 and re-dubbed it the Platypus."
excerpted from A Brief History of the Rim Wars
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How much will you be selling these for?
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How much will you be selling these for?
No idea yet. The price of 3D printing the cockpit and engines has really scared me. The good news behind that is that the only way I'm going to be able to afford to make this is to sell some of them to recoup some of the costs. Expect it to be in the £60 plus bracket. And I'm not being held to that if it turns out to be a lot more.
Just to show the engines do rotate to provide vectored thrust...
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-ndmQbi90hp8/VF03U6H7A0I/AAAAAAAAE3k/GplMPaLG96E/s1600/TurnedEngines01.JPG)
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-xFCbKZvMmN0/VF03VVDOobI/AAAAAAAAE3o/uWHpDCZ6V5A/s1600/TurnedEngines02.JPG)
... and if you see it from this angle, then you know you're about to be flattened...
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-v8Z7--oUdVo/VF03VqwCGRI/AAAAAAAAE3s/C8D43aCYU2w/s1600/TurnedEngines03.JPG)
Does anyone else think that it looks like a platypus?
"In FedYear 83, the MarineCorp released specifications for a multi-use LOAB (Low-Orbit And Back) interface craft capable of putting 6 light squads, 3 mobile squads or 1 light armored vehicle on the ground. After a 3-year design competition, the Corps provisionally accepted the Sequoia Aerospace "MUDSX211", designating the first models in service the UDS-211B. The troops took one look at the 211 and re-dubbed it the Platypus."
excerpted from A Brief History of the Rim Wars
Call it what ya like if ya buy it ;-)
Thank you all for the continuing comments...
Next steps -
Figure out why my modelling of the engine intake rotors doesn't work.
Redesign the hull to accommodate the new ramp and simplify the number of pieces.
At that point we might have a prototype design - then comes all the work of converting this into a physical prototype. (gulp!)
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It's looking really good.
My tiniest niggle would be that the feet look a little small to spread it's weight whilst on the ground. A cracking ship tho and somehow more "realistic" (if that's the right term - perhaps plausible??) than some of the scifi ships out there and I like that.
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Nice! What CAD program are you running?
For the nose design what about adding elements of the apache longbow chin sensor bubble thingie. Its a nightmare to cad up accurately due to the complex curves but its very easy to make a looks like.
I am going to have to read the entire topic to get up to speed but it looks amazing from a quick glance. Beautiful cad work too.
SolidWorks. Am a newbie. Thank you for the positivity.
Sorry, but no to shin weaponry. It would get ripped and burnt off in the harsh re-entry. Also this isn't a gun shi it's a DropShip for Mechanised Infantry. "The Express Elevator to Hell"
It's looking really good.
My tiniest niggle would be that the feet look a little small to spread it's weight whilst on the ground. A cracking ship tho and somehow more "realistic" (if that's the right term - perhaps plausible??) than some of the scifi ships out there and I like that.
Thank you.
Feet? hmmm I kinda agree. I may fiddle with them when I re-do the hull to accomodate the underfloor ramp. I can make them a fe mm Wider, but longer is going to be problematic given the hull spars.
In reality this version of the RESILIENT Class dropship was under engined and eventually withdrawn from service. Rather than being known as the DuckFace or the Platypus as early troops had called it, its lack of engine retardation meant it quickly became known as the Mole for its habit of 'heavier than survivable' landings. As a consequence no real data or evidence exists as to whether the landing gear was sufficient or not.
;-)
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A final picture for today
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-nxqov9zwi4s/VF2EB1EeUdI/AAAAAAAAE4E/v2Mv2-af3sQ/s1600/Nicepic.JPG)
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(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-SKFoZ6OpY5Y/VGD4X5S1OqI/AAAAAAAAE4c/qQZqUzdrXNg/s1600/shoulders02.JPG)
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-VbznMLacZJw/VGD4XCZWlzI/AAAAAAAAE4U/R3f3x2YeCAk/s1600/Shoulders03.JPG)
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-o5O-pONd7iE/VGD4XeCw27I/AAAAAAAAE4Y/-lOfa1NpLGQ/s1600/Shoulders01.JPG)
Shoulders on the front engine mounts prevent them from exhausting directly into the rear engine intakes.
Have also remodelled the engines so they are castable and included the turbine fan detail.
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Looking good 8)
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Nice.
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Sorry about the terrible picture (five minutes on paint :D ), but have you thought about extending the front extensions a bit forward/rearwards... a bit like this?:
(http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d161/Inso/Sales/Space1_zps13fbd06f.jpg)
The front extensions on yours look good because the step the front engines out but they could use a bit more support (I think). I have put the red lines in as a second option for the front of the forward engine supports.
Just a thought (and sorry again for the terrible picture :( ).
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Thank you YPU and piccolo.
Sorry about the terrible picture (five minutes on paint :D ), but have you thought about extending the front extensions a bit forward/rearwards... a bit like this?:
The front extensions on yours look good because the step the front engines out but they could use a bit more support (I think). I have put the red lines in as a second option for the front of the forward engine supports.
Just a thought (and sorry again for the terrible picture :( ).
Hi Inso, thanks for the input.
First thing I thought when I saw your pic was "wow, that looks like a Gorn destroyer from Star Fleet Battles."
At the moment the shoulders are just a 15mm filler piece to shove the engines out wards. They are rectangular at the hull end and and circular at the engine end. I don't really want to make them intrude on the other surfaces of the hull for simplicity of the build. However your pic does make we want to fiddle with bringing the engines forwards a little. I think I will probably make the bulking out piece asymmetric front to back and maybe a little wider.
(Note that the overall dimensions of this model are dictated by the cabinets I need to store and display them in, and I'm close to the limits already!)
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The dimensions of this dropship were set by the size of the original Listerine bottle used to form the prototype resin cast. I continued using those dimensions when I started to draw up this CAD version for laser cutting. Partly because I am teaching myself the CAD system.
In the meantime I have changed my mind regarding the likely payload for the dropship and want to be able to include almost all my Old Crow 25mm vehicles.
So you see that somewhat large block of 'pine' in the following picture? Well, that's a block with the maximum dimensions of the vehicles I now want to be able to transport. Its the Payload Block.
I think you might see the problem.
Oops.
(https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-fG2hhMD3_zU/VGIO6u4LjCI/AAAAAAAAE40/iUFzv74sqtM/s400/Payload01.JPG)
It's a little on the large side when you slide the block into the payload location...
(https://4.bp.blogspot.com/--a-beq8o1WQ/VGIO8HbWKEI/AAAAAAAAE48/2U3kDmCWZII/s400/Payload02.JPG)
Compare the maximum dimensions to the relatively small rear door...
(https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-sXHHEui3fMM/VGIQTbdJg9I/AAAAAAAAE5E/8GJo9ZKgJL8/s400/Payload03.JPG)
So I have some work to do.
Bear in mind I still need to be able to get a full length ramp in under the existing floor, which in itself will mean that I have a few mm less headroom than shown here.
I sketched up a simple block shape to stretch the hull around the Payload Block and I dislike it. It makes the whole ship look far to 'dumpy', the main hull becomes almost cylindrical.
So, I am doing to play around with a few options.
- Redraw the payload block so it more accurately resembles the models the ship will carry. (for example the tallest vehicle is the Gladius Medium Tank. This tank is much taller in the middle than it is at the edges, so the Cuboid Block isn't a great representation of the sapce actually taken up by the tank.
- Deepening the main hull around 10mm. This might mean retaining the same width and length or enlarging them in proportion.
- Lowering the rear hinge a few mm
- Reducing the rear chamfer on the hull shape so that the rear Door Matches the Mid section ribs. Currently the front and back chamfers on the hull are 10mm from the hull bulges, and the mid section is only 5mm.
I MAY press ahead with this current version and get it made, as this could handle some of the vehicles such as the Goanna and Gecko scout cars and trucks (unlaiden). This could be a command/light version of the drop ship. A further 'Heavy' variant could then have an enlarged hull with the same cockpit, landing gear, engines and tailfins making the whole thing modular.
Decisions, decisions.
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And a slightly more accurate block model of the Gladius Tank.
(https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-WVqd4vUZUJc/VGIjW8xG7II/AAAAAAAAE5Y/ISrvPs8HjYI/s1600/Payload05.JPG)
:-(
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Time to get drastic:
(http://www.airplane-pictures.net/images/uploaded-images/2009-1/29/35395.jpg)
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I'm just throwing this out there, the idea hasn't entirely formed in my mind. But thunderbird 2 came to my mind. A belly hatch might make the payload delivery move feasible. Also rather then up I think down would be the way to expand. Maybe a "pregnant" version of the ship. Something that looks even more heavy, you mentioned you wanted a brick after all.
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Time to get drastic:
(http://www.airplane-pictures.net/images/uploaded-images/2009-1/29/35395.jpg)
Pffft Boeing rubbish ;-)
The last commercial aircraft i worked on...
(http://www.aircraftcompare.com/aircraft_images/689.jpg)
The airbus Beluga - used for flying aircraft components for airbus around Europe. It still flies over my house several times a week.
I'm just throwing this out there, the idea hasn't entirely formed in my mind. But thunderbird 2 came to my mind. A belly hatch might make the payload delivery move feasible. Also rather then up I think down would be the way to expand. Maybe a "pregnant" version of the ship. Something that looks even more heavy, you mentioned you wanted a brick after all.
Thanks for the suggestions YPU.
I'm considering everything at the moment.
I had originally intended to put a belly hatch in which would allow belly deployment in flight. But how do you recover the vehicle? you still need to land and drive it back in. Also the problem with a belly load is oyu end up having to have very long landing gear to allow the belly doors to open so its not solving a whole lot of a problem.
As to the pregnant look. it easier to go up because the 'floor' of the cargo bay needs to be above the curvature. If i lower the floor i lose the curve - which may be a possibility, but it also interferes with the landing gear.
Needs several more coats of looking at. But thank you for your suggestions I do appreciate them because it makes me think about other solutions and challenges some of my preconceived ideas.
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Why not increase height of body, keeping the same bottle shape just thicker, with the engines at the top. Doing this would give the shuttle a bigger door , with a longer ramp & so solve concern of too steep a ramp.
Regards
MMG.
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If you went with a belly hatch - nothing saying you couldn't retrieve a vehicle with cables...basically hover over it, have ground crew attach cables and hoist it back into the ship, then close the doors. Not fast or fancy though. And it doesn't have to interfere with landing gear at that point (as the doors shouldn't be open when landed). I think with the goal you're aiming for the shape of the ship simply isn't very suitable.
Look at all the real life cargo planes and none of them are very curvy. The loading decks are always as square/tall/wide as possible.
The other possible solution is to simply make the entire model 1.2x bigger or something - just expand every design part so that the bay becomes suitable. ???
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Needs several more coats of looking at. But thank you for your suggestions I do appreciate them because it makes me think about other solutions and challenges some of my preconceived ideas.
Sure, if a good round of feedback leaves you more sure of your own idea that's rather splendid. :D
PS, I spotted your topic on looking for a 3D printer but can't find it now, if your still looking take a gander at 3d hubs. Alternatively wait a month or 2 and I should have mine up and running. o_o
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Why not increase height of body, keeping the same bottle shape just thicker, with the engines at the top. Doing this would give the shuttle a bigger door , with a longer ramp & so solve concern of too steep a ramp.
Regards
MMG.
Thank you MMG
That's certainly a possibility. I've been playing with the dimensions and they do make the whole thing look like the fat kid that got picked last for sports at school though. :-(
If you went with a belly hatch - nothing saying you couldn't retrieve a vehicle with cables...basically hover over it, have ground crew attach cables and hoist it back into the ship, then close the doors. Not fast or fancy though. And it doesn't have to interfere with landing gear at that point (as the doors shouldn't be open when landed). I think with the goal you're aiming for the shape of the ship simply isn't very suitable.
Look at all the real life cargo planes and none of them are very curvy. The loading decks are always as square/tall/wide as possible.
The other possible solution is to simply make the entire model 1.2x bigger or something - just expand every design part so that the bay becomes suitable. ???
Hi Elbow, thanks for the comments.
I am committed to a rear ramp rather than a belly hatch for a few reasons. Mostly this is a wargaming model and if it doesn't land to deploy, then it's not going to spend any time on the table top. Secondly deploying a payload from a belly door is a simple case of jettisoning it. Recovery however would be far more problematic and hovering in VTOL with the bulk of an orbital ship whilst you try and attach pick up cables in the engine wash is going to be both expensive in fuel and fraught with unessary danger.
Yes, I know my 'bottle shape' isn't the most ideal but i like it so I want to try and preserve it. Real life cargo planes are VERY curvy. because they are aerodynamic. I know this isn't but the world is full of odd shaped hulls and pods and such like.
I WILL find a suitable solution - I like the problem solving. But right now i'm considering lots of options as well as suggestions here. One of those is just to scale the whole thing up to keep proportion. Thats actually harder than it sounds because the thickness of the material i have made the skeleton out of wont likely change so all the notches and joins wont scale either...
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Sure, if a good round of feedback leaves you more sure of your own idea that's rather splendid. :D
PS, I spotted your topic on looking for a 3D printer but can't find it now, if your still looking take a gander at 3d hubs. Alternatively wait a month or 2 and I should have mine up and running. o_o
Thanks YPU. I appreciate people who make comments. They're not always what I want to do, so I don't want people put off.
I'll check out 3d hubs. Never heard of it. I've had a couple of other offers too.
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Select the parts that make the bay and scale them up to the new size you need. The rest of it will be fine you might just have to move a few bits left or right to line them up with the new bay size.
Thanks for the input scurv.
Problem with just scaling it up is two fold.
Firstly it starts to get properly massive if i scale up engines and everything else too. If i don't then they look puny on the new bigger hull. Besides the hull is long enough and almost wide enough.
Secondly the hull is a skeleton build of lasercut flat sheet parts. In scaling up the components the thickness of the sheet wont change. SO they have to be individually managed. - there are over 60 unique parts in the hull, and al together around 220 separate parts.
I'm going to have to redraw big chunks of it anyway so i'm looking for a neat solution which retains as much of the existing shape and feel as i can without sacrificing too much to the gods of practicality...
Edit : Sorry that sounded overly negative. It wasn't supposed to.
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Sorry, haven't read everything from the last few pages - this thread has been off my radar for a week.
Have you thought of two designs? One for the infantry and a little more nimble, the other for the larger stuff? It would be a shame to see this original design butchered.
I realise there's an additional cost with two - but use the sales of one to make the second.
Just a suggestion.
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I think you should do as Von Lucky suggested. Split it into two projects.
The original listerine ship was a smallish dropship, for troops or light vehicles at most. Something that can fit a tank is, simply, a different beast.
Unless you want to end crazy, I'd guess you'd better focus on finishing the listerine/resilient/beyonce dropship as originally intended.
Then you could make a new bigger dropship for heavy loads. Surely there are some pieces you may use again (as in real life), but the hull will need to be designed from scratch (perhaps making it bigger, also longer, with six engines...).
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I think Your dropship design has the concept in it.
Have You thought about a cargo frame, with engine, cockpit, fins and wings, that carries either a container for soft goods (droptroops or supplies) or vehicles suspended from hardpoints?
it is clear that vehicle loading can only occur in secured installations and dropping off vehicles is easier by simple touchdown an releasing.
After all You want a dropship and not a cargoship?
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Sorry, haven't read everything from the last few pages - this thread has been off my radar for a week.
Have you thought of two designs? One for the infantry and a little more nimble, the other for the larger stuff? It would be a shame to see this original design butchered.
I realise there's an additional cost with two - but use the sales of one to make the second.
Hi Von Lucky - and thank you for your input.
There's a lot to read, but i have discussed this as an option earlier in the thread. I think it's probably what I'm going to do. Both will use the Cockpit engines and other bits but the heavier one will have a bigger cargo hull.
Scurv - thank you for your continued input. At 234 parts (71 unique part designs) i'm getting pretty adept at file management and version control. That number will come down a bit as I simplify the skeleton. A lot of the work is parametric, and the assembly is simply a mated arrangement of parts so its not too hard to manage. I'm sure i could have done it better but then that's one reason why I'm doing this project - to learn. The bit I'm not looking forwards to is translating the 3D model back into the 2D layour for the laser cutter. Lots of projecting and tesselating and chaining lines, then trimming and inserting tabs so the bits stay on the sheet!
I think you should do as Von Lucky suggested. Split it into two projects.
The original listerine ship was a smallish dropship, for troops or light vehicles at most. Something that can fit a tank is, simply, a different beast.
Unless you want to end crazy, I'd guess you'd better focus on finishing the listerine/resilient/beyonce dropship as originally intended.
Then you could make a new bigger dropship for heavy loads. Surely there are some pieces you may use again (as in real life), but the hull will need to be designed from scratch (perhaps making it bigger, also longer, with six engines...).
Ajsalium - thanks for the comment. Yes I think this is the conclusion I have come to as well. Stick with the basic outline and have a light and heavy version. I still need to do a number of things with the original and a little more door height will help heroic 28mm figures too.
I think Your dropship design has the concept in it.
Have You thought about a cargo frame, with engine, cockpit, fins and wings, that carries either a container for soft goods (droptroops or supplies) or vehicles suspended from hardpoints?
it is clear that vehicle loading can only occur in secured installations and dropping off vehicles is easier by simple touchdown an releasing.
After all You want a dropship and not a cargoship?
Thanks for the feedback former user.
I know there is a lot to read on this thread and also on my blog. I've discounted this idea before. I strongly dislike the look of those sort of dropships once the cargo is deposited. and I do like the listerine bottle shape i originally started with.
On a 'practical note' (and i do hesitate to use the term practical when talking about sci-fi) having your military equipment designed to be dropped into orbit on the outside of a dropship doesn't make much sense. As well as designing a militray vehicle, you have to give it the same atmospheric protection as the main ship. And where do you put the crew? If you're genuinely dropping your equipment from up high then the crew need to be IN the equipment. In which case it needs life support and lots of other systems that will only get used during drop. Again expensive.
Think about a tank with a gun barrel as an example. If you want to deploy that tank and you're just going to stick it to the outside of a carrier vehicle, then what do you have to do to protect that long thin sticky out bit as you bounce through the very hot and aggressive outer atmosphere?
Then, if you are only transporting infantry - how do you deploy them? If you do it from height with your troops in "space suits" then you're making a re-entry vehicle for each of them, and you dont need a drop ship of this ilk. Finally extraction becomes problematic. To recover both vehicles and infantry, you either have to land and attach them / take them on board or you have to use very expensive energy to hover and try and recover in VTOL in the engine jet wash. Inso will be along in a minute to tell you what that's like under a rotary aircraft, and why the modern military dislike doing it and the amount of preparation it takes to do so in packaging and stowing kit.
Now, all of those problems can be over come in one of two ways.
1. Advanced Technology
2. Ignore them because it looks cool and this is sci-fi.
Persoanlly I dont subscribe to 2. Whilst 1 is a good argument, modern day engineers dont make things difficult for themselves and then invent new ways to solve problems that weren't there before. We do things the cheap way, the repeatable way, we re-use tried and tested tech until it hurts.
Ultimately this is a cross between a modelling project and a wargames project. If its able to deploy equipment from a hight then it's never going to be ON the table. So the cargo hull remains.
Rant over - sorry got carried away.
In Summary
- I'll make a light Dropship for Infantry and Scout Vehicles.
- I'll Make a Mk2 for heavier equipment which will share all the same design components but have a bigger hull.
Now a couple of questions.
Even the light Dropship is going to be around 250 x 180 x 90 (not including tailfin height) (thats 10" x 7" x 3 1/2" for our stuck in the imperial measurements historical deadend cousins). It will weigh in at somewhere around 0.75Kg
Do you want to be able to pose it in flight? And by pose I mean moveable in Pitch Roll and Yaw?
I only ask becasue i think I have sorted how to do it and am wondering if i'm the only one would want that?
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I'd be more interested in the landed ship pose (compressed landing gear, and alternative extended gear or retracted in flight? - with apologies if I missed something!) and, if used as a flying model, a standard steady flight - perhaps with a rearwards tilt to reflect the lander poise, even though that would probably be more correct during high altitude braking than at near-tabletop level.
I know it would not solve the payload problem, but a 'zwilling' type version would be interesting :D – and simple too: two models, with the port side thrusters of one and the straboard side thrusters of the other removed and the hulls bonded together. Or perhaps with the engines retained as the hull linking unit.
For the large model - I would suggest as an option having double the number of engine pods mounted above each other, or perhaps with an outer engine pod strapped to an inner for a double unit. For the cockpit I would suggest retaining the same one and fitting it asymmetrically, with some faired avionic instrumentation or anything more or less rational alongside it.
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I'd be more interested in the landed ship pose (compressed landing gear, and alternative extended gear or retracted in flight? - with apologies if I missed something!) and, if used as a flying model, a standard steady flight - perhaps with a rearwards tilt to reflect the lander poise, even though that would probably be more correct during high altitude braking than at near-tabletop level.
I know it would not solve the payload problem, but a 'zwilling' type version would be interesting :D – and simple too: two models, with the port side thrusters of one and the straboard side thrusters of the other removed and the hulls bonded together. Or perhaps with the engines retained as the hull linking unit.
For the large model - I would suggest as an option having double the number of engine pods mounted above each other, or perhaps with an outer engine pod strapped to an inner for a double unit. For the cockpit I would suggest retaining the same one and fitting it asymmetrically, with some faired avionic instrumentation or anything more or less rational alongside it.
Some interesting Ideas there Vanvlak - thanks for oyur input. I'll try and respond to each point.
Ship will be able to sit on its lanfing gear as you can see in all the pictures.
The landing gear also retracts into the hull (the sole of the foot forms the outer skin of the hull)
You would be able to pose the landing gear up or down whilst the ship is in flight or on the ground.
In-flight. You will be able to position the ship in any Pitch, Roll or Yaw within around 45 of the horizontal. I'm guessing the angle - haven't drawn the mechanism up yet.
The engines vector remember so you can pose them suitable to the flight orientation as you wish. Each engine vectors independently.
I tried to google "Zwilling" but just got hundreds of links to kitchen products!
From your description I am guessing you mean two conjoined hulls? Hmmm yes would be possible. Just ommit stbd/port engines and glue the hulls together. All the engine, cockpit and other greeblies will be interchangeable. Im not yet anticipating more than 4 engines on the larger version. Mounting them might be problematic. But that may change. If there is demand, then I suspect I might be more likely to recreate engines with triple intakes and exhausts in each housing, rather than the existing two.
I hope that helps.
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Thanks for the replies Brandlin - modelling options for landing gear position is good news 8)
Zwilling - I had the HE-111Z in mind (http://www.ba102.fr/LIEUX-HISTOIRE/BA-102/Heinkel111zTavaux-z-1.JPG).
Thanks for the replies, this is getting more and more interesting.
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Breaking up the cockpit into pieces that will fit on the 3D Printer table.
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-LT30Ld4Sc0k/VGc7D7LYQiI/AAAAAAAAE5s/3yU2U1YG-TE/s1600/Assembly01.JPG)
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-bzBTzzpxGME/VGc7Eh7EcuI/AAAAAAAAE50/Y5XXn9EyjMo/s1600/Exploded02.JPG)
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-ZRWFObVbfj0/VGc7ElUIsBI/AAAAAAAAE54/PLlFZTwFL3E/s1600/Exploded01.JPG)
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I am going to make the bold statement that this looks like one could ad cocktail details to the whole.
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I am going to make the bold statement that this looks like one could ad cocktail details to the whole.
I don't understand what you mean YPU.
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It means I should stop making posts from my phone.
The way you have broken up the components for printing you could add details to the cockpit (wtf phone, cocktail?) Naturally the windows would need to be carved out an some clear plastic inserted. I'm not sure how you plan to produce the final product so this might not be the case in the end?
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It means I should stop making posts from my phone.
(wtf phone, cocktail?)
lol
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Naturally the windows would need to be carved out an some clear plastic inserted.
better print them or cast them in a clear material...
Congratulations on the cockpit, I am sure many would be interested to buy one. I would
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Yeah,a kit with the cockpit and landing gear would be great for people with empty Listerine bottles.
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It means I should stop making posts from my phone.
The way you have broken up the components for printing you could add details to the cockpit (wtf phone, cocktail?) Naturally the windows would need to be carved out an some clear plastic inserted. I'm not sure how you plan to produce the final product so this might not be the case in the end?
Ahhhh
This has been hollowed and split in order to try and reduce the cost of printing. I was then going to assemble the master and have it resin cast as a single piece.
Yes it could be made as a modelled cockpit ... BUT
1. its quite large - the circle on the back is a 30mm iris access way between the cockpit and the main hull. its NOT a 'flip up lid' type cockpit ala an x-wing or a battlestar viper fighter.
2. WHilst it would be nice to do as a model, as a war gaming piece that doesnt add much
3. getting seated figures for an interior is like getting luxury rocking horse poo. Just the regular kind is hard enough to find, without them actually being any good or matching any other troops oyu might have.
It MAY be sensible to have the final product cast in three sections aslo - in which case the buyer might want to model this as and open cockpit - good luck to them in that case.
:-)
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It MAY be sensible to have the final product cast in three sections aslo - in which case the buyer might want to model this as and open cockpit - good luck to them in that case
clear resin is also cheaper....
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clear resin is also cheaper....
But also very difficult to cast without airbubbles (so I've heard).
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clear resin is also cheaper....
No. Kg by KG clear resin is cheaper. BUT you cant as easily add cheap filler to provide mass and bulk, and as Inso says because of the problems casting bubble free, the scrap rate is higher.
Also if I cast the shell from clear resin, then i need to provide interior detail. and that means MORE resin, pushing the price up. And honestly - who is going to use the cockpit interior of a resin gaming piece thats too small to stand figures up and move them around in.
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there is a misunderstanding here:
it is easier to paint over clear resin (apart from the windows)
than cut out holes and glue them in
and these whole suggestions are not about thwarting Your concept, but about making it more interesting for others to buy, thus cheaper for You to produce
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I think Brandlin has a point though, the big question is how many people are willing to actually pay that much for something that is pretty rare on war-gaming models. All that being said as long as its a separate piece it could always be done later if there is a lot of interest right?
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It's all theoretical if a clear resin cockpit will equal more sales.
Brandlin makes excellent points - we're just here to keep him going with the cocktail and hull.
("Did I say you could stop rendering? Keep going!" Whip, crack!)
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Yeah,a kit with the cockpit and landing gear would be great for people with empty Listerine bottles.
Sorry Froggy i missed your posy earlier
you know thats not a half bad suggestion... I honestly hadn't thought of that! would go well with the whole household rubbish angle I had with my pringle tube buildings.
only issue with the listerine bottle thing is that the prototype i made is much deeper than a standard bottle... hmmm let me think...
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We are nothing if not creative. I'm sure it won't be an insurmountable difficulty.
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We are nothing if not creative. I'm sure it won't be an insurmountable difficulty.
On the original prototype I made i Extended the hull depth to be around twice the thickness of the standard 500ml (from memory) bottle.
Although I notice that in the UK now, Listerine are selling a 1l bottle.
I have to remodel the hull for size and other reasons and have a few ideas to simplify it's skeleton. Whilst doing so over the next couple of weeks I shall see If I can't also modify it to work on a 1l Listerine bottle itself. The only two issues I can see right off the bat are
1. Getting the cockpit to fit on the bottle neck.
2. Mounting the rear engine pods flush to the hull (would currently require the bottle to be cut and elements glued inside)
For the avoidance of doubt, this version of the drop ship would not have a lowering rear ramp/door and an accessible interior.... i think....
STOP GIVING ME NEW IDEAS...!
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STOP GIVING ME NEW IDEAS...!
NEVER! :D
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Although I notice that in the UK now, Listerine are selling a 1l bottle.
Surely, since GW released their rules for massive battles in WH40K with lots of drop-pods and what-nots, Listerine has realized there's a market for big cargo ships. lol
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If its laser cut I cant help you if its printed and cast then what about you just making a threaded 'bolt' in the cockpit rear that the bottle screws exactly much like the cap its replacing. If its cast in resin dont forget shrinkage!
Nice idea but the screw thread is deep - so its going to tear a mold getting it out.
Also trying to align the thread so that once on the cockpit isnt at some odd angle will be hard.
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Nice idea but the screw thread is deep - so its going to tear a mold getting it out.
Also trying to align the thread so that once on the cockpit isnt at some odd angle will be hard.
Yea, thread is something I would stay far away from. If you end up going this way then simply a smooth neck that covers the thread should do? Less contact points but some 2 component epoxy should do the trick. :D
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If someone was crazy enough, they might be able to just cut the lid and jug neck off of a wide-necked plastic jug and then then glue the male and female threads in place in the cockpit ring and the body (while the threads are tight, so that you can glue the cockpit level).
That would be the one easy way you could add a screw-on cockpit. The trick would be finding a jug neck of the right size to fit.
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Yea, thread is something I would stay far away from. If you end up going this way then simply a smooth neck that covers the thread should do? Less contact points but some 2 component epoxy should do the trick. :D
I could leave the top on the neck and glue the top into the cockpit I guess...
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I could leave the top on the neck and glue the top into the cockpit I guess...
I don't think I've ever had a actual bottle of the stuff in hand but in my mind the top would be too large/long. Looking it up it might fit... Meh, just musing form a guy who clearly doesn't know what he' s talking about here. :D
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I don't think I've ever had a actual bottle of the stuff in hand but in my mind the top would be too large/long. Looking it up it might fit... Meh, just musing form a guy who clearly doesn't know what he' s talking about here. :D
Actually the much bigger problem is how to affix things to the bottle. Gluing detail on the surface is fine with superglue, but fitting anything that needs to be INSIDE the bottle and more sturdy is a problem. That includes the landing gear and the engine rotation mechanisms.
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It may look like all I've done is some colouring in. But the Cockpit and Engines are now hollowed, split into castable components and are shown here with some colours just to highlight the details a little better.
If you look at the join lines for the cockpit you'll see locating lugs allowing magnets to be used to 'snap' the components together when assembling. I think this will still be manufactured as a solid resin piece for simplicity but the hollow 2mm shell means the print cost is dramatically reduced. I've also added an Iris valve to back of the cockpit for those that want to be able to model this with a detached cockpit at some point.
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-8sGUfC6oMOo/VGoRtPjae-I/AAAAAAAAE6M/N_NvmV8BPAo/s1600/CockpitWithMaterials01.JPG)(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-7B4An-gGTvk/VGoRtekqpsI/AAAAAAAAE6U/r5aIm1gvjxw/s1600/CockpitWithMaterials03.JPG)
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-SatXehy96Kw/VGoRuCt8FQI/AAAAAAAAE6c/RlzCd_irr_M/s1600/EngineAssemblyWithMaterials01.JPG)(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/--isF7Ivhjc0/VGoRvHgKOBI/AAAAAAAAE6w/LxE0klzysGA/s1600/EngineAssemblyWithMaterials03.JPG)
More and bigger pictures as always on my blog - link in signature.
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now in colour!
great! plenty of interested financial supporters I hope
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Looks good :)
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A flight stand to allow the dropship to be posed in any pitch roll or yaw attitude.
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-zNY7g3ggsPU/VGqirbjmXUI/AAAAAAAAE7M/QVmh97GNOKw/s1600/FLightStandsAssembled01.JPG)
The flight stand is composed of a steel ball bearing sitting inside a good ring magnet. The magnet clamps the bearing tightly and is solid enough to support the weight of the ship, but it allows the ball to roatte in the ring, meaning the ship can be set at any roll or yaw attitude.
Pitch variation will be managed by adjusting the height of the front and back stand. This would be easier with a single magnet location on the ship, but the ship itself is quite heavy and the centre of gravity moves depending on the contents. Also the 'bulges' in the hull between the landing gear are available and 'just the right size to fit this.
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-aK1foeGcE-w/VGqiq1rdaoI/AAAAAAAAE7I/gqQdTQ_sCnY/s1600/FlightStandDetail.JPG)
For some reason the annotations on this picture have moved - sorry. I'm sure you can tell whats going on.
The mounting is a sandwich of 1.5mm ply and 0.5mm styrene - simply because those are the materials I am laser cutting for the structure of the hull. The top plate clamps the magnet in place and is held with 4 M2 bolts through the sandwich. This in turn will be affixed to the hull structure with glued slots. I think large smears of 2 part epoxy or gorilla glue would also be beneficial - these magnets are STRONG!
The flight stand itself needs some design work. The M3 bolt shown in the steel ball will be shorter and simply bolt the ball to the top of an acrylic lasercut stand. I'm hoping to make this adjustable maybe up to as much as 300mm high to be able to pose the ship above the table top.
As always more and bigger pictures on my blog.
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great! plenty of interested financial supporters I hope
Plenty of comments, mostly good.
Pledges of large financial sums.... not so much.
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Kickstarter?
I would be interested in cockpit and engines
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Kickstarter?
I would be interested in cockpit and engines
Thanks for the interest former user.
I was musing about Kick Starter last night. Never done that before and I'm not really in this for significant monetary gain or hassle. It remains an option but i want to get to a workable finished design before I go that route. I shall keep your interest in mind :-)
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yes, this is fair thinking to want to finish it before, but I have seen others who started them much earlier.
You already have a lot to show and could make a very interesting composite concept of it.
Ask forumites who did it before for advice - I think Andrew May made a very successful one
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The redesign of the main Hull is now underway
Now it can be posed Topless!
The roof is removable to allow you to get figures and vehicles inside.
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-3Q46tIsMvgY/VG9KPd_kiiI/AAAAAAAAE7k/1Py3bqNflG0/s1600/RemovableRoof.JPG)
Also the Main structure of the ship is simplified with flight stand connections and landing gear incorporated. There are also holes pre-cut for wiring, and I will incorporate a lighting rig and battery compartment in the design.
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-F5UmJqBqZzQ/VG9LGwvUfMI/AAAAAAAAE7s/ZdRKBSIL-e0/s1600/RedesignedBelly.JPG)
The redesign has also meant that the main bay of the ship is a much simpler boxy structure, 70mm Wide, 180mm long and 45mm high
Height remains the issue and I've yet to design the rear door where the reduced bulge and the door frame itself will intrude.
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One of the things I always planned is to be able to game 6mm scale sweeping battles AND 28mm Skirmish actions as part of the same campaign. This means having the same figures in both scales.
Therefore I need a 6mm DropShip and a 28mm Scale one.
So with a bit of judicious scaling, and simplifying of a number of features that would be lost at 6mm scale, this is where I have got to so far. I have the tails to add, and a little more simple detail on the hull (a couple of vents, access hatches that kind of thing).
Overall dimensions 52 x 34 x 17
I think this will have to be cast in two pieces. The hull and engines should be cast in a single piece (though I shall have to smooth the join between engine and hull a little). The cockpit split line is not coincident with the main hull split line so I suspect it will have to be cast separately.
The tails are not shown here - but I am hoping they would be strong enough to be cast with the hull... they'd be very fiddly if cast separately.
Anyway, pictures...
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/--v_rr8f7Roc/VHSjYBMBw-I/AAAAAAAAE8M/wlY8kJ3T-XA/s1600/01Port.JPG)
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-E40r1xrMDbg/VHSjYlqpisI/AAAAAAAAE8U/kqOxCUV2iOk/s1600/03Top.JPG)
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-il7HXc46yFc/VHSjUjjNFCI/AAAAAAAAE78/MR1oc7KSlW8/s1600/02Front.JPG)
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-fGs9fVEY7GI/VHSjZlsfZ2I/AAAAAAAAE8g/0QZwZlGgXqI/s1600/06Iso.JPG)
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One of the things I always planned is to be able to game 6mm scale sweeping battles AND 28mm Skirmish actions as part of the same campaign. This means having the same figures in both scales.
Therefore I need a 6mm DropShip and a 28mm Scale one.
OOOH :o
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6mm....??!!! 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8)
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6mm....??!!! 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8)
Yup... that was always the plan...
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Yup... that was always the plan...
Happy with the 28mm; happier still with the 6mm :-*
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Now I'm having images of dropships as Russian dolls!
Dropships in dropships....
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6mm finished.
Files are off to a couple of printers for quotes and advice etc before i commit to the 28mm
Coloured it in fully just for fun...
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-rKTGMPZnoKQ/VHc5XfvkmTI/AAAAAAAAE9E/4VX-B5yvb18/s1600/Colour01.JPG)
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No 15mm?? :'(
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No 15mm?? :'(
The 28mm one might make for a mighty 15mm one with some minor work I'm thinking.
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No 15mm?? :'(
Tell you what - i'll do a 15mm one when i finish making the 1;1 scale fully operational version.
There may however be a short delay whilst I use them to retake the colonies and re-establish the empire though.
Grrrr...... gimme a chance.
The 28mm one might make for a mighty 15mm one with some minor work I'm thinking.
Possibly - the only thing giving the scale away will be the cockpit windows.
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Tell you what - i'll do a 15mm one when i finish making the 1;1 scale fully operational version.
There may however be a short delay whilst I use them to retake the colonies and re-establish the empire though.
Grrrr...... gimme a chance.
Possibly - the only thing giving the scale away will be the cockpit windows.
Maybe I should have typed more. I was only asking whether the intention was there.
The time it takes to fulfill this possibility is not important.
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Possibly - the only thing giving the scale away will be the cockpit windows.
Exactly, a few strips of plasticard top and bottom, maybe a middle stripe is all I think I would add myself to make it 15mm.
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I have started to flesh out the internal decor. The main bulkhead shown here separates the hold from the cockpit via an iris valve.
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-yjK9T0aCbAw/VHflNsDJR-I/AAAAAAAAE9U/HBueLQSPLYg/s1600/BulkHead01.JPG)
You can see a number of storage compartments, medical station and ... "gubbins". This will be resin cast and inserted into the frame.
You can also see the slightly recessed floor allowing for the longer ramp and maximising the rear door height. The opening for the rear door is now complete.
Down each side of the hull is also a "ledge". I am considering continuing the idea of internal 'panels' down each side. Just 3 mm deep these would give the sense of the internals of the ship. Seats for troops, weapon racks... that kind of thing. What do you think? I could make a small number of these which could then be mixed and matched as you wish and simply glued to the inside walls.
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/--z3q-OI2o_M/VHflOSE8iXI/AAAAAAAAE9Y/fXp20TdnSWQ/s1600/BulkHead02.JPG)
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Maybe I should have typed more. I was only asking whether the intention was there.
The time it takes to fulfill this possibility is not important.
i welcome the comments... i hope you picked up on my attempts at humour Brummie.
15mm is not top of my list. It would have to be done as a 'solid' resin cast - not a hollow lasercut skeleton. Its not too hard to do. However I would have to rescale and then have masters reprinted of all the resin bits. That starts to get expensive if i cant sell them.
I have a use for the 28mm and 6mm versions - so selling some of those helps me offset the costs of my own models. I have no use for a 15mm one.
Anyway, never say never and all that!
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You'll need a seriously good painter to paint one of these for you B. 😁
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You'll need a seriously good painter to paint one of these for you B. 😁
If only I knew one that would do that in exchange for a free model or two...
That person will need to be a good modeller too, because this is going to be a labour of love to assemble.
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Nice idea but the screw thread is deep - so its going to tear a mold getting it out.
Also trying to align the thread so that once on the cockpit isnt at some odd angle will be hard.
How about a slim 3D printed cap with threads inserted and glued in to a hole in the cast?
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Next panel in the interior coming together - Monitoring station.
Will be mirrored onto the other side (rather than the expense of additional molds. I still need to detail the 'recess between the screens.
Fold up Seats and overhead cabin baggage will run down the two sides, and then I'll come up with something else at the door end.
I will add weapon racks, general storage, ring fixing points for securing the payload. Any other ideas or suggestions?
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-_VTkG_KT76c/VHiOyiahG_I/AAAAAAAAE9s/PlHtJrWqZ4w/s1600/MonitoringStation.JPG)
I will have to swap to another 3D package to do the 'softer' stuff like straps and such like so they may not get done. Also I quite like the 'clean' look of the interior.
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"Any other ideas or suggestions?"
Crew! :D
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"Any other ideas or suggestions?"
Crew! :D
Kev White's Job...
Maybe you can persuade him to flesh out the Grymn Air crew models..... ?
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Progress on the hull redesign. I have solved the steep ramp angle problem.
In fact I may have over solved it!
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-29RexMPafTk/VHvCcU9eSqI/AAAAAAAAE-A/_tMpb5-ifRw/s1600/RampAngle02.JPG)
The picture shows the 'false' floor that sits in the cargo bay recess and slides out. The rear door will hinge down as before and magnets in the inside of the door will hold the door up against the underside of the false floor, thus creating a ramp.
When readying for take off, the false floor will slide back into the cargo hold and the same magnets will locate it to the recessed main floor. the door magnets will hold the door shut against the rear hull.
Simples.
The only problem is now that the ramp looks too long! Thats about a 7 degree angle to the horizontal.
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-IJmfvSvPtWs/VHvCb8OsrrI/AAAAAAAAE98/JvrENiynUp0/s1600/RampAngle01.JPG)
I can play with the length of the false floor to get a better look though. Just the hinge and door to redesign now.
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Only problem I see with that is that anything placed inside will block the movement of the false floor, or am I missing something crucial? That said, it's not a toy, so you don't *have* to actually place stuff inside.
The length of the ramp is another reason why I suggested the ramp sliding on recessed rails beneath a thin floorpiece - it wouldn't need to be the length of the whole bay then.
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The ramp looks too long at its current thinkness and to make it thicker would reduce payload. How do you load the cargo? Do you stack it up on the ramp and then close it or do you close the ramp and use a mechanical handler?
I'm not sure the false floor idea sits well.
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Only problem I see with that is that anything placed inside will block the movement of the false floor, or am I missing something crucial? That said, it's not a toy, so you don't *have* to actually place stuff inside.
The length of the ramp is another reason why I suggested the ramp sliding on recessed rails beneath a thin floorpiece - it wouldn't need to be the length of the whole bay then.
It's a compromise.
You can pose vehicles in the hold and on the ramp, and when stowed the ramp is inside the vehicle, not having to be stored separately.
As I said before, yes recessed rails would be ideal, but I don't have the space to put them in.
The ramp looks too long at its current thinkness and to make it thicker would reduce payload. How do you load the cargo? Do you stack it up on the ramp and then close it or do you close the ramp and use a mechanical handler?
I'm not sure the false floor idea sits well.
Cargo is loaded by going up and down the ramp when deployed. The fact that the ramp is actually the hold floor is a compromise in the model. It's not meant to reflect the actual operation of the 'real thing'...
Looks like this approach didn't go down well. Depressed now.
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As I said before, yes recessed rails would be ideal, but I don't have the space to put them in.
See, that's what I fail to see - you do have the space right now to run the ramp into the hull - there must be half a millimetre to spare above the ramp slot which you could cover with plasticard to produce a deck? I mean, the concept still uses plasticard to cover the outer hull, or am I mistaken?
I've added a 3-sided diagram below to illustrate how I envision it. Using 2mm MDF for the blue structures and the ramp, and 0,5mm plasticard for the green bay flooring, the whole assembly would be 4.5mm high, and from the proportions of the bay, I'd assume you could put a recess in the bulkheads to take this?
I'll concede I don't know how tricky it would be to add the necessarily round axles at the end (either glueing on a continuous one, or two stubs to the sides) or how tricky those small parts would be to laser-cut. Also, I may be totally off with the dimensions of the bay, but as said, I fail to see how it cannot be done, period.
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See, that's what I fail to see - you do have the space right now to run the ramp into the hull - there must be half a millimetre to spare above the ramp slot which you could cover with plasticard to produce a deck? I mean, the concept still uses plasticard to cover the outer hull, or am I mistaken?
I've added a 3-sided diagram below to illustrate how I envision it. Using 2mm MDF for the blue structures and the ramp, and 0,5mm plasticard for the green bay flooring, the whole assembly would be 4.5mm high, and from the proportions of the bay, I'd assume you could put a recess in the bulkheads to take this?
I'll concede I don't know how tricky it would be to add the necessarily round axles at the end (either glueing on a continuous one, or two stubs to the sides) or how tricky those small parts would be to laser-cut. Also, I may be totally off with the dimensions of the bay, but as said, I fail to see how it cannot be done, period.
Thanks for the input Chris.
In summary - 4.5 mm is a large dimension on this model. For scale, the recess in the floor currently is 3mm.
Let me try and explain the problem in a little more detail.
Your solution requires that the end of the ramp remains in the end of the slot in the hull and pivots downwards to form the ramp. Your diagram only shows the ramp in its horizontal position.
The 'rod' on the end of the ramp needs to be say 2mm in diameter so it doesn't easily snap or bend (lets worry about how it affixes later) and you need a couple of mm of material in the end of the slot - to stop the ramp sliding out. this then means that the pivot point for the ramp is actually around 4mm back from the door into the hull. You can see this if you look at your own side elevation drawing and imagine the ramp slid to the end of the slot, the centre of the hinge pin is now a few mm back from the door sill.
Now draw the ramp deployed at an angle rotated about the hinge point 4mm back from the door. You'll see that the underside of the deployed ramp then fouls the lower edge of the current door sill. The solution to this would be to lower the door sill just on the outer edge of the door frame. Unfortunately to get door height I have already taken that to its practical limit. There is only 2mm of supporting material in the end cross-section that forms the doorway. I can just about get away with this because as you see i have plenty of supporting elements holding that rear frame.
Note for scale that rear chamfer on the hull is only 5mm deep, so what sounds like a small amount is actually quite significant.
To resolve this I would need to raise the floor of the overall cargo bay - thus negating the benefit of having the sunken section as currently shown.
The curve of the underside of the hull means that the sill could be lowered by making the ramp narrower. I have played around with this but in order to get the necessary clearance on the door sill you end up with a ramp only around 30mm wide. So this isn't practical.
The other issue with your suggestion is the issue of rails. If the pivot pin of the ramp is 2mm brass rod (which is what i would use to make sure it doesnt bend etc) and you run it in a slot, then you need a couple of mm of material above and below the rod - allowing for clearances to prevent binding, you end up with 6.5mm + of height not 4.5mm
Your picture actually doesn't show rails. It shows the rod on the ramp section running on the underside of the thin floor piece. My biggest concern with this is that if the ramp is pulled out part way and any pressure is applied to the ramp end, then you have a lever that is going to try and push the thin floor upwards. I may be being paranoid but that's not ideal to me.
Rather than attempting to affix a pivot pin at the very end of the ramp, a simpler solution would be to cut the ramp with a couple of stubs that stick out laterally at the very end. However they would need to be 3mm or more in thickness and this would then cause more problems with the actual pivot point for the ramp and cause upwards pressure on the floor again. I also think this will bind more often.
Your comments about using styrene sheet to cover the hull floor are good ones and it is an ongoing option. I think 0.5mm would be too thin for this, and I was thinking of diamond plate which is usually in 1mm sheets. The impact is simply a loss of 1mm of height.
The compromise solution then is that the ramp is a separate piece. It slides into a slot under the floor. When the ramp is deployed, it affixes to the inside of the lowered rear door on magnets that hold it in place, and provide a nice strong ramp. When the ramp is stowed you simply detach those magnets and slide the ramp end into the 'slot'. A simple stop in the slot could be used to prevent the (probably shortened) ramp from sliding out of reach and jamming. again a small magnet in the floor could hold it in place just to prevent it from falling out.
Having the ramp as a separate piece means that I can play with the pivot location of the rear door hinge and position the ramp on the door so that there isn't a gap between the lowered door and the door sill (caused by the door pivot point not being flesh with the rear door frame). This means you would have a nice smooth transition for your vehicles from ramp into hold.
My preference is to have some detail on the hull floor. If the floor is a single 1mm sheet then this can be engraved. Engraved sheets lose a lot of strength so i need to be careful that I don't over weaken the sheet. Im just a little concerned that the floor stands up to the rigours of figure and vehicle movement, because if the floor buckles then the ramp may bind/jam.
The same goes for the ramp itself. some surface features would be far better than just a plain 'slab' of styrene (something like Hazard stripes down the sides and direction of loading arrows). On the ramp I can probably laminate 2 or more styrene sheets and either engrave the top one or have a thinner top sheet fully cut through to make the detail.
There was a comment made earlier about the risk of paint jobs being ruined with sliding pieces. with my solution here, if you are really worried then you can store the ramp separately and just pretend that its stowed in the ship i guess.
As a point - there is no MDF in this design. Its not strong enough and too bulky. The thin section wooden components are 1.5mm ply- used for aircraft models. It is far more rigid, lighter, but most importantly can be cut to much thinner pieces and retain enough strength. MDF tends to delaminate and otherwise crush in small cross sections.
Sorry for the long post Chris. I hope this explains the situation more fully. I appreciate your and everyone else's comments.
I know it must sound as though I am being anally retentive about such small tolerances in what is effectively just a wargamming model, and i admit that I am trying to squeeze a lot into a relatively small space - and one that is a shape i like but is highly impractical. But hey, I'm having fun. And i hope to produce something a bit special.
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Alright, thanks for explaining it at length! Now I see, my bad - with those tolerances, it's indeed a very tight spot, and probably not practical. I had guesstimated something like 10-12mm for the bottom part of the bulkhead (I scaled the whole thing in my head something the size of the Tau Orca, or a Thunderhawk).
On another note, have you considered adding a recess at the rear bulkhead, so that you could just slot in the ramp as a separate piece? That will possibly have issues in that you would need an angled cut, or construct the slot part from multiple small parts, but it would alleviate the problem of having to make the ramp move into the hull.
While I am all for fun toys and having a working ramp would be awesome, in some cases, you probably can't have all those moving features. That said, while I originally found the dropping floor of the UD-4L a bit iffy, now I see how it is a very practical solution to the issue.
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Alright, thanks for explaining it at length! Now I see, my bad - with those tolerances, it's indeed a very tight spot, and probably not practical. I had guesstimated something like 10-12mm for the bottom part of the bulkhead (I scaled the whole thing in my head something the size of the Tau Orca, or a Thunderhawk).
On another note, have you considered adding a recess at the rear bulkhead, so that you could just slot in the ramp as a separate piece? That will possibly have issues in that you would need an angled cut, or construct the slot part from multiple small parts, but it would alleviate the problem of having to make the ramp move into the hull.
While I am all for fun toys and having a working ramp would be awesome, in some cases, you probably can't have all those moving features. That said, while I originally found the dropping floor of the UD-4L a bit iffy, now I see how it is a very practical solution to the issue.
No problems Chris - I appreciate the interest.
Lets be honest here, this is all scaled originally around a listerine mouth wash bottle! So its going to come with challenges!
Its a reasonably big ship - it will end up at around 270mm long, 175 wide and 123 tall including tailfin.
Interestingly I do like the Tau Orca - best thing forgeworld has done in my opinion - but I am not a fan of the suits. I'd want one that deployed tau tanks and APC's. But when i scaled that up to an accommodating size it was scary big!
EDIT: just went to check forgeworld site, do they not make the orca anymore?????
remember this is Mk1 the light scout and Renaissance deployment ship. There should be plenty more opportunity for other designs and solutions on the heavier Mk2 version and onwards...
I think this will look like a 'working ramp' on a toy as you say - the only difference is that the ramp does come all the way out.
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No problems Chris - I appreciate the interest.
Lets be honest here, this is all scaled originally around a listerine mouth wash bottle! So its going to come with challenges!
Its a reasonably big ship - it will end up at around 270mm long, 175 wide and 123 tall including tailfin.
Interestingly I do like the Tau Orca - best thing forgeworld has done in my opinion - but I am not a fan of the suits. I'd want one that deployed tau tanks and APC's. But when i scaled that up to an accommodating size it was scary big!
EDIT: just went to check forgeworld site, do they not make the orca anymore?????
remember this is Mk1 the light scout and Renaissance deployment ship. There should be plenty more opportunity for other designs and solutions on the heavier Mk2 version and onwards...
I think this will look like a 'working ramp' on a toy as you say - the only difference is that the ramp does come all the way out.
I think I pin-pointed it now - when you started showcased the spar-and-bulkhead design, I just assumed you'd moved away from the bottle SIZE, while keeping to the bottle SHAPE. That's of course a totally different spacekettle of spacefish.
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I think I pin-pointed it now - when you started showcased the spar-and-bulkhead design, I just assumed you'd moved away from the bottle SIZE, while keeping to the bottle SHAPE. That's of course a totally different spacekettle of spacefish.
I have moved away from the bottle size somewhat - this is over double the 'thickness' (height), but due to my limitations on space for display and storage its not far from the original bottle width and length.
you'll have to OK my concepts for the heavy version chris, that way you'll get what you want and you can buy a dozen and make it worth my while designing :-)
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I am beginning to think i'm late to this dropship party and have a second rate solution...
:-(
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a_bdR3x0SqQ
Those rows of folded seats are so similar to what i've been thinking but not yet drawn.
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Merlin Helicopter:
(http://images.fineartamerica.com/images-medium-large/members-of-the-pathfinder-platoon-andrew-chittock.jpg)
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Merlin Helicopter:
(http://images.fineartamerica.com/images-medium-large/members-of-the-pathfinder-platoon-andrew-chittock.jpg)
Thanks inso a remarkably clear interior shot that one.
Those seats look comfier than the ones I flew to Iraq on in a C130J! :-(
I'm not looking forwards to doing any of the 'softer' shapes - as i need to swap cad systems to do that.
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Always room for more dropships (I'm painting one of those too)! You'll have to go one better and have a few seats folded down!
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Those seats bring back memories... I have laced up hundreds of those seat covers :). It's like finger knitting :D!
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You'll have to go one better and have a few seats folded down!
That's what I was thinking. Though I need to make sure they don't intrude into the vehicle space.
My current plan is to fit 3 modules down each side of the ship. Each module will have 2 seats on it. I'll probably make 2 versions of the module, one of which will have one seat down. Thus by arranging them you should get a nice mix of up an down seats, and enough space to fit 12 troops.
The rear bulge will then have further storage and gubbins etc.
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Minor progress. Bulkheads ready for printing.
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-pUjA0ihLYSU/VICHyYfRM1I/AAAAAAAAE-Q/l9e6EHn6tps/s1600/BulkHead03.JPG)
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First pass at the layout for seating down each side of the hull.
8 seats in 4 blocks of 2. This makes the 3d printing cheaper and simply means 4 resin casts rather than 1.
Seats are shown folded up, but I may do a variant with a seat down so you can mix and match. Shown here is under-seat cabin/storage, fixing ring for cargo/vehicle load, seat hinge with the seat pad folded up and above that a head rest (very sketchy) and then at the top an over head locker.
I have been considering webbing belts in a 5 point harness but am beginning to think that a hard harness (like that on a theme park ride) might be a better idea.
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-pWLNJHjfIrw/VIHTAViI9YI/AAAAAAAAE-g/N6WgFWCePio/s1600/SeatSideAssembly01.JPG)
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Looking very 'tidy'! Hard harness deffo - did you see Dreamforge's APC interior with the HH? http://dwartist.blogspot.co.uk/2014/05/dreanforge-eisenkern-keilerkopf-apc.html
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Looking very 'tidy'! Hard harness deffo - did you see Dreamforge's APC interior with the HH? http://dwartist.blogspot.co.uk/2014/05/dreanforge-eisenkern-keilerkopf-apc.html
I've not seen the model you mention dwartist... I shall go and look.
But i got this far on my own.
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-eT-SgUVWQHk/VIIjajt4f_I/AAAAAAAAE_A/958caBZJShY/s1600/SeatSideAssembly03.JPG)
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-92PA4fq2id0/VIImvUYSHgI/AAAAAAAAE_M/qNGtX0pWrTo/s1600/SeatSideAssembly04.JPG)
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-aKnvAXSXFEI/VIImwYlkmWI/AAAAAAAAE_U/IFDeuGizVNc/s1600/SeatSideAssembly05.JPG)
Will that do...?
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even better!
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Will that do...?
:o :o :o
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I didn't do much today, but got the final internal panel started.
Not sure whether to make the space two or three "compartments" wide. This shows just two.
I've been thinking of putting roller shutter doors on the compartments, but then thought i could leave them open or part open and model stuff in them. They aren't very deep, so I'd have to 'hint at' whats inside. I was going to do weapons and ammo, but i thought that might narrow down users/buyers as it wouldn't match their figures...
Any suggestions of what to put in them?
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-6uPaDZINuSA/VIT_MBJK8qI/AAAAAAAAE_k/XJ1NyDFH4OQ/s1600/RearBulkhead01.JPG)
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First aid, food, supplies, etc. So just leave them as different sized boxes.
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oops...
nothing to see here
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As you are likely aware, most storage options on military aircraft involve big cargo nets and lots of rings on the floor to clip them to... normally (in helicopters) between the passengers, up the middle of the fuselage. Having compartments limits the flexibility of storage areas.
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As you are likely aware, most storage options on military aircraft involve big cargo nets and lots of rings on the floor to clip them to... normally (in helicopters) between the passengers, up the middle of the fuselage. Having compartments limits the flexibility of storage areas.
Yeah Inso. I'm modelling fixing rings (though they look a bit low tech) and there'll be some etching on the floor.
However I have some wall space, so am looking for ideas to fill it.
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but i thought that might narrow down users/buyers as it wouldn't match their figures...
make insert panels separate, You will be able to expand on that later. apart from obvious weapon racks, casualty transport foldable stretchers would be an idea. Also door gunner stations in case it is an opposed drop off
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Love this project! 8)
Makes me feel like scratch-building something out of soap containers and other household waste, just to have SOMETHING akin to your dropship... lol
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make insert panels separate, You will be able to expand on that later. apart from obvious weapon racks, casualty transport foldable stretchers would be an idea. Also door gunner stations in case it is an opposed drop off
Thanks for the idea former user. Unfortunately the internal panels wont be modular - i'm finding the pricing on 3D printing too high and my likely sales too low to make this viable.
door gunners would look cool, and I did consider putting side doors in for this reason but the proximity of the engines ruled that out in practical terms. Space is a big issue at the rear door so I think I'm going to pass on the gunner station. Sorry.
Love this project! 8)
Makes me feel like scratch-building something out of soap containers and other household waste, just to have SOMETHING akin to your dropship... lol
Thank you Argonor. Have you seen my fantasy buildings i did a while ago? link in signature...
I'm thinking of a similar thing as a variant for this dropship too. :-)
A little more progress
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-dV168vJa08E/VIWQHJUuejI/AAAAAAAAE_0/EREJvBHQZIQ/s1600/RearBulkhead02.JPG)
All of these internal panles are just 3mm deep so the detail on them is 3D but it is shallow and I'm trying to get a trompe l'oeil effect.
The storage lockers at the back show ammo crates, first aid and general boxes along with additional oxygen cylinders and the start of what will be rifles. I may add some pistols and a couple of magazines.
However this is starting to look very expensive as these panels need a high definition 3D printerto create the masters ... Gulp!
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Does that look like weapons in a roll-front cabinet?
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-QgVcvT0ktlk/VIXBdTtG_XI/AAAAAAAAFAE/yedh4WjluYY/s1600/RearBulkhead03.JPG)
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For the cabinets I wouldn't bother offering anything other than a closed, rolled-down option.
If people want stuff there, let them choose their own gubbins. There's a lot of options of spare weapons people can just put with a dab of glue, for example. Canisters and similar can be done with a bit of plastic rod, or some putty.
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Wow! After your comment on my project I had to look up what you meant... well let's just say I wasn't expecting your remark to be that accurate ;D
This is a wonderfully mad project and I'll watch it with great interest. Your attention to detail is simply astonishing.
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Wow! After your comment on my project I had to look up what you meant... well let's just say I wasn't expecting your remark to be that accurate ;D
This is a wonderfully mad project and I'll watch it with great interest. Your attention to detail is simply astonishing.
You were warned Neunfinger! Thank you for your comments though.
I'm an engineer by trade so I come at these things from a functional design perspective and attention to detail which means I do obcess and redo until it's right. So although this looks complex, each piece is doing a job.
I suspect that this will be of far greater appeal to people who want the experience of building it, and the fact it's unique, than your "get it on the table war gamer".
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Looks like everyone is bored of this thread by now.
Maybe i should stop working on this project...
Nobody wants to see the first real 6mm prototype do they?
(http://forum-of-doom.com/Smileys/default/icon_whistling.gif)
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6mm?
Surely no one plays at that scale... >:D
(And that's a size, not a scale, yadda yadda...)
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6mm?
(And that's a size, not a scale, yadda yadda...)
***SLAP***
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Looks like everyone is bored of this thread by now.
Maybe i should stop working on this project...
Nobody wants to see the first real 6mm prototype do they?
(http://forum-of-doom.com/Smileys/default/icon_whistling.gif)
WANT.
SEE.
NOW.
:o
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WANT.
SEE.
NOW.
:o
There you go Ajsalium. THAT was the appropriate response.
So because of the behavior of one little boy, the rest of the class will suffer.
No pictures for anyone.
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(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-hlhmrsHKDi4/TksuThobtKI/AAAAAAAASXM/xHG1lB3KpvQ/s1600/FGfullmetaljacket.gif)
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Well that's better then. I hope you learned your lesson Ass-jalium.
I shall now post pictures just as soon as I win the fight with my Desktop computer that at the moment is flattly refusing to run Photoshop or read the camera card....
All i want for Christmas is a BIG STICK.... grrr
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6mm first physical prototype.
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-DC_vFuzW4-A/VJBo7F2gfvI/AAAAAAAAFAU/cXnGAQyw0lw/s1600/DSC_0350.JPG)
you can get a MUCH bigger picture on my blog... (http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-DC_vFuzW4-A/VJBo7F2gfvI/AAAAAAAAFAU/cXnGAQyw0lw/s1600/DSC_0350.JPG)
EDIT : The squares on that picture are 10mm. Overall dimensions 52mm long, 35mm wide, 18mm high (not including tail - not shown)
The 'Frosted Ultra Detail' material is a nightmare to photograph. If you click on the picture you'll get the original full size photo and you can see a bit more.
This was printed in two sections (cockpit, and the rest). Each piece is hollow and simply pushed together by means of a hexagonal boss and matching hole.
You'll have to take my word for it that I can just see all the panel lines, and even the engine intake turbine blades! There is a little bit of stepping on the curved sections of the hull, but nothing to worry about. There are a couple of areas where I shall make changes, probably make the panel lines and a couple of things more prominent so they show up at this scale. Also, I forgot to put a flight stand mounting hole on the underside!
Then I'll have to start looking at getting it cast.
Quite pleased with this.
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Great quality, the details are showing very well. At this size though you'll have to watch out for children mistaking it for a gummybear ;)
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Great quality, the details are showing very well. At this size though you'll have to watch out for children mistaking it for a gummybear ;)
so far this drop ship has been
Resilient
Beyonce
Duck Face
Quasimodo
Platipus
Why wont you bloody fit you annoying little piece of garbage?
and now GummyBear
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And don't forget the Beyonce, when it got curvier. lol
From what can be seeing (that material is not photo friendly!), it looks very nice. You can be very proud of it. Must be great getting a sense of accomplishment, too.
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And don't forget the Beyonce, when it got curvier. lol
Ah yes ... list edited
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SHINY :o :-* 8)
And not titchy too (so that's one name it will not be called ;) )
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I have finally spent the time finishing the hull, redesigning the front bulge to make the 'push out' for the front engines integral to the hull, and skinningt he whole thing.
I hate it.
The front bulge now looks too angular.
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/--Fo2eJZNPX8/VJiYs3GR3zI/AAAAAAAAFAk/pgyNttl6Fx0/s1600/NewFrontExtension01.JPG)
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-AJfH3gnIOVY/VJiYtsLpKTI/AAAAAAAAFAo/KJsTxfLBf5Y/s1600/NewFrontExtension02.JPG)
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-s9H_TR-gOJs/VJiYt8CdP9I/AAAAAAAAFAw/u4FVhGff5dE/s1600/NewFrontExtension03.JPG)
I think I'm going to scrap the last 3 hours work and go back to having the front and rear bulges match, and then making a separate piece to push the front engines out - probably just a stubby cylindrical shape.
:-(
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Step away fom it for 24 hours, then come back and see if you feel the same.
Looks fine to me.
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Where did my comment go? Into the aether? ???
I like the change in the "bottle" to make the front engines stuck out more. Spot on.
The only thing that looks too angular is the part between the main body and the cockpit. Can't you do some curved chafeur to it to lessen its angularity?
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Been a while.
Thought I might finish this...
(http://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/39/3575-030719151200.jpeg)
(http://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/39/3575-030719151132.jpeg)
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Oh yes, that is perfect
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wow. That works.
Nice one.
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That turned out really GREAT!
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:o That's beautiful
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Excellent. When can I get one?
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Excellent. When can I get one?
Seconded. Lovely model.
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Excellent. When can I get one?
Thanks.
Why would you only want one? I want a dozen... and these are just the infantry drop ship variants... i'll need 20+ of the larger armour dropships
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Seconded. Lovely model.
Thirded! It’s brilliant!
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Lovely dropship!
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Fantastic!
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Great!
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Finally finished the last few details
Top row - a new missile launcher turret to replace the old crow one and a new radar dish to do likewise
Bottom Row - a small calibre turret for close defence that slings under the fore and aft of the belly, two nose weapon options, a multi barrel cannon and an air to air missie in tube.
(http://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/39/3575-220719201739.jpeg)
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Lovely stuff!