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Other Stuff => Workbench => Topic started by: Brandlin on 10 December 2014, 06:28:33 PM
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I'm looking for a laser cutter that can undertake small volume model laser cutting in HIPS plastic and plywood.
I've directly contacted a number of manufacturers but I'm interested in recommendations and self promotion please.
UK ONLY.
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...I assume you've contacted Jimbibbly and Ian at Fenris already?
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I'm afraid I'm not doing contract lasering anymore :)
cheers
James
*edit for lousy spelling*
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...I assume you've contacted Jimbibbly and Ian at Fenris already?
Ian is/was my supplier but is too busy.
Jim - no. But see last post lol...
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Ah, well, there you go! ;D
Another place to ask might be on PC modding sites; I know that custom laser-cut cases in a variety of materials is very popular, so you might be able to get some good recommendations on sites like Overclockers UK. ;)
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I used Sarissa Precision (http://www.sarissa-precision.com/) a few times for mdf and have been very pleased. Not sure if they do plastic and plywood though.
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A friend of mine recently had some work done by Cog'O'Two in Manchester recently. They do contract work in plastic etc.
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I used Sarissa Precision (http://www.sarissa-precision.com/) a few times for mdf and have been very pleased. Not sure if they do plastic and plywood though.
Thanks, they were already on my list.
A friend of mine recently had some work done by Cog'O'Two in Manchester recently. They do contract work in plastic etc.
Never heard of them. Will check them out thanks Dewbakuk.
Edit: just went through their site. Some interesting stuff. Never heard of them and reasonably local to me! Thank you. Have contacted them.
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No problem. I have their zeppelins on my workbench currently, as soon as I finish the stupid Martians that are currently on it I will be building them up :)
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No problem. I have their zeppelins on my workbench currently, as soon as I finish the stupid Martians that are currently on it I will be building them up :)
I like their skeletal stuff... Especially the rockets. How are you thinking of skinning the airships?
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Probably not skinning the small, medium and big ones. Plan is to paint them up and add some weathering to turn into decorations. Short term I'll sneak them onto the Christmas tree :) In the longer term, I'm very tempted to mount them on wall hooks in my games room in an homage to the old ducks up the wall :D
The large one will probably get skinned though. The gondola underneath is too small as is but the whole thing should make a good base for a project. I've skinned a primitive airship with a pva soaked shammy leather in the past but probably not suitable for this. Thin card would work but I'll probably have a play with an uninflated balloon and a thin papier-mâché layer. If it doesn't work the balloon will act as a skin separating the two so no damage to the Zeppelin skeleton.
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If I was the, I'd sell a laser cut card kit to skin the airships, the panels are simple in CAD.
I was looking at their classic three pronged rocket, but turning the skeleton into something that is circular and not faceted would be near impossible.
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UPDATE: back on topic.
In the last two weeks I have contacted 37... Yes, thirty seven ... outfits that advertise laser cutting services. That includes war games companies, craft companies and even bigger industrial outfits.
Many of them advertise a 24/48 hour response time. Only 2 companies have responded in that kind of time scale, with only 11 responses in total after around ten days.
So far I have been told...
"It is not possible to laser cut HIPS." (Response, "It is possible, my current supplier has been doing it for me, if you aren't able to then I understand." Their response "Well f**k off and use him and stop calling me a f**king liar then!")
"We can't cut your geometry files, they are very damaged." (Replied, "can you tell me how damaged, because they have been cut dozens of times before without problem, I can re save or export in other formats if that helps?". Their response "Too damaged to look at. Send us a sketch of what you want and we'll redraw them at £45 per hour.")
"We can't cut 1.5mm plywood because of the glues involved, we don't have the fume extraction. Can this be done in 3mm MDF instead, we use this material almost exclusively." (Replied "I'm surprised as the glues in plywood are much less dangerous than the resins in MDF, besides the thickness of the material is important." Their reply "I didn't know there was resin in MDF?")
"We can't cut this in 1.5mm plywood, as that thickness doesn't exist." (Replied with links. "It's available in lots of places and is commonly used for aircraft modelling. Your website says you are experts in aeroplane model kits, hence why I contacted you." Their response "your kit isn't an aircraft, so we can't get 1.5mm ply. Please redesign your kit for a material that exists.")
"For 10 A4 sheets of your product we are happy to quote £1045 plus VAT, Materials cost and shipping." (Replied, "is this correct? That's over £100 per A4 sheet. Could you look at your calculation please, for this price I could buy a machine for the price of 20 sheets." They replied. "Laser cutting is expensive. You think you can buy a laser cutter for £2000 you go ahead.")
And my personal favourite...
"Sorry but we don't do laser cutting so we can't provide you with a quote." (Replied. "But your website says you do laser cutting on a trotec speedy 400 machine." Their reply "Does it? I thought that trotec was a laser printer.")
So, my experiences here are depressing to say the least. If this is indicative of the approach of these companies then they won't be around long. I admit some of these are big outfits and I'm making an enquiry for very small orders. I also realise that at the other end of the scale, small one man band operations may not have all the knowledge necessary.
The positive news is that I am in discussions with a couple of companies that seem friendly and prepared to help.
So thank you for your recommendations, feel free to add more if you have them.
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Wow, just wow...
On the plus side, if you put wings on it, 1.5mm plywood suddenly exists!
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I laughed out loud at some comments, especially the "I thought it was a laser printer" one lol
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Probably not helpful but you could look into local hackerspaces to see if there's a laser cutter you can use. You'll have to do the cutting yourself, but that's really easy after someone shows you how. I've been doing this for my personal projects. Frankly the hardest part is setting up the files, which you've already done. DOeSLiverpool lists they have two machines that can be reserved.
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There are some spectacular examples of customer service there as well as some displays of knowing your product / service.
I have some scifi rooms I'm interested in getting cut. I have them drawn up in CAD files. I asked someone a year ago if it might be something they'd be interested in but after a long delay just asked for a quote, which I've not yet received. Would it be possible to pm you for some suggestions? It seems cheeky to take advantage of your work and it would be a shame not to be told to f*(k off myself but it would shorten the process.
Cheers
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Personally, I think it's right and correct for him to give kudos (and business) to the sensible companies by naming the good, helpful ones. Some people might name the idiots too.
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Probably not helpful but you could look into local hackerspaces to see if there's a laser cutter you can use.
Might not be helpful to Brandlin but it was helpful to me. I remember whinging when they started to appear that there was nothing like that near me. Turns out there is one now and has been for a couple of years. Now I just have to find time to go use it...
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Personally, I think it's right and correct for him to give kudos (and business) to the sensible companies by naming the good, helpful ones. Some people might name the idiots too.
Sorry, I was being sarcastic about the customer service, I forgot the old Internet-sarcasm oil and water thing! My fault :) I can't believe that people can afford to run a business like that. Totally agree about naming the good ones, though I'd also like to know who to avoid!
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Thank you all for the comments. I thought you might enjoy.
I'll try and respond to everyone...
Wow, just wow...
On the plus side, if you put wings on it, 1.5mm plywood suddenly exists!
Some arguments just head into a dead end.
I laughed out loud at some comments, especially the "I thought it was a laser printer" one lol
Why is this person allowed to respond to company email?
Probably not helpful but you could look into local hackerspaces to see if there's a laser cutter you can use. You'll have to do the cutting yourself, but that's really easy after someone shows you how. I've been doing this for my personal projects. Frankly the hardest part is setting up the files, which you've already done. DOeSLiverpool lists they have two machines that can be reserved.
I have looked into this. Closest to me are Manchester/Liverpool both an hour away. Biggest problem is that they're mostly only open when I'm not available, or their hourly rate is higher than I was paying previously for someone to cut them for me. Those ones that do free hire are booked solid.
My cunning plan is to do a deal with my sons high school to use theirs, but the head says no to anything commercial!
There are some spectacular examples of customer service there as well as some displays of knowing your product / service.
I have some scifi rooms I'm interested in getting cut. I have them drawn up in CAD files. I asked someone a year ago if it might be something they'd be interested in but after a long delay just asked for a quote, which I've not yet received. Would it be possible to pm you for some suggestions? It seems cheeky to take advantage of your work and it would be a shame not to be told to f*(k off myself but it would shorten the process.
Cheers
PM away. But be warned, i do know about the CAD and engineering side but the laser side I've always outsourced. Happy to help if I can.
Personally, I think it's right and correct for him to give kudos (and business) to the sensible companies by naming the good, helpful ones. Some people might name the idiots too.
I will happily share the good names when I get sorted. I'm not getting into a slanging match with the poorer ones here.
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That's a shame, the hackspace in Nottingham is open 24hrs to members, with free access to most of the machines inc the CNC machine. The laser cutter does have a charge of £1 per 10mins though. Never lasered something myself so not sure how quick it is..
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The company I use, ponoko, are pretty good, but the smallest size Ply they have is 1.6mm.
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That's a shame, the hackspace in Nottingham is open 24hrs to members, with free access to most of the machines inc the CNC machine. The laser cutter does have a charge of £1 per 10mins though. Never layered something myself so not sure how quick it is..
Mostly these places seem happy to help product development and prototyping to get 1-2 sheets cut. But if I say "I need your machine for 8 hours to production cut" and they start to say no. Understandably.
If I'm going to give the volume (small though it is) to a producer, then I'd rather work with them on prototyping too.The company I use, ponoko, are pretty good, but the smallest size Ply they have is 1.6mm.
Ponoko you say.. Hmmm
That's US based, but the have a Uk outlet in razorlab.
Razorlab don't offer ply or MDF under 3mm in thickness, and don't offer HIPS at all.
They're happy to cut them all, but I have to send them materials and they won't guarantee the finish on them so it gets expensive to double handle and they're iffy about the HIPS. In fairness to them I am yet to get a finally reply to my request.
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The MDF comment scared me. Main reason I bought a filter mask to ensure I don't inhale the dust when I work with it.
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Hi
Couple of things. In the UK, if its a Polystyrene it has fume issues and so companies should not use it... rene part is chlorine type based and will produce Chlorine type Gas in cutting, this is not allowed even to be extracted or filtered in the UK. (Ive been working with mass CNC and Laser cutting production for 20+ years).
MDF Is all OK in the UK. The resins are natural and contained in the wood pulp. MDF is produced (in basic terms) by boiling up wood pulp and compressing it at high temperatures and pressure, this boils out the natural resins to form the binder to hold the wood fibers together, any resins added further are also natural and wood based, re pine resin. You can see this resin as a residue on the surface of laser cut panels. When machining it is good to use extraction and masks as it does produce fine dust, but this is also the case when cutting any 'real' timbers. Please dont use the USA as reference to UK/EU regulations as these are regarding processing techniques and machinery not the base materials where regulations are involved.
The material thickness becomes an issue as to supply it the cutters will have to order a minimum pack and not just a sheet in many cases, and will end up with a load left they can not use till it may come up again... cost on their books unless paid for.
Many Laser cutting companies dont use CAD software in engineering terms but Graphic Software - re Vinyl cutters. and so importing and translation may cause 'issues' they can not resolve. (What form of CAD are you using and what format are you supplying - and version).
I looked around the same way and found the same issues. I dont understand how any independent laser companies can be making any money.
Small guys have small lasers and they take forever to cut, Big guys have big lasers and they need volume. However there are companies that can do it for a reasonable cost.
After all that... Give me an email info@marchattack.co.uk. Let me see the rabbit (CAD file) Email Sarissa too. Can you provide the material, this would kill the cost of over ordering a pallet load, I could help with CAD files if need be - I understand you have used them with another supplier, can you or have you got their files. These should be yours by agreement - to take to another supplyer.
Happy to help if I can.
Gary
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Hi Gary, thanks for the long response. I appreciate your comments and input.
However, I'm not sure I agree with your comments on HIPS and MDF.
Hips is not chlorine based. It's base chemical formula is C8H8. It's a Polyphenylethylene. It doesn't give off chlorine. I'm not saying the fumes are not dangerous, but they are not chlorine. A quick read through available Material Safety Data Sheets confirms this. Any of the PVC family of plastics will give of chlorine however.
I accept that many small or one man companies will not have the necessary extraction to handle plastics other than acrylic. And may rightly stay away from materials they don't understand. I'm not criticising them for that, nor am I asking them to do something that may endanger them.
As to MDF. Calling resins as 'natural' and therefore ok. Is nonsense. Cobra venom, cyanide, uranium, are all 'natural'! Much of the resin used to bind MDF is formaldehyde (HCHO) along with other VOCs. There are plenty of restrictions on formaldehyde exposure, however it's a much simpler compound to manage than chlorine. Of far greater concern in MDF is the dust, which is very fine and can be breathed in. In general dust in your lungs is not a good thing! I understand from other laser cutter owners that MDF residue (dust / resin) really screws the optics as well, so requires good extraction.
As to your other points...
I'm using solid works and turb cad for the geometry. I'm aware of the limitations of many companies that don't understand the geometry and files other than say illustrator. These are not geometry problems. I can supply the files in any format. The issues is ignorance in some of the companies.
As to material supply and volume. I disagree. I'm not talking about expensive products, or anything esoteric. The materials I'm talking about are easily available in small quantities. These are not pallet sized orders. I'm just trying to avoid double handling it by buying it having it shipped to me, shipping it to them and back. I accept that they may not wish to look at materials they don't list - that's their choice. But they won't get my business.
I agree with you about not knowing how some of these companies stay in business. I think some of them buy a cutter and make a living over charging the card making and scrap booking fraternity by cutting butterflies two at a time.
Am talking to sarissa already thanks. One of the helpful outfits!
All the files are mine. All the design work is me, and I am uber confident none of this is a cad issue. I'm just trying to buy the time on the laser cutter and the experience to drive it (power feed rate etc).
I'd like to reiterate - I'm not complaining about any of these companies. They can run their business how they like. Clearly I know more about the subject than a worrying number of them, but also less than some. Some of them don't want to be in the market that I'm in, and that's fine too. I just find some of the responses hilarious and some if them seem to be gouging customers.
I'll drop you an email if you want to discuss.
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That one saying they would need to redo all your work and charge £45 an hour seems like a goer lol
That is a ridiculous price.
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That one saying they would need to redo all your work and charge £45 an hour seems like a goer lol
That is a ridiculous price.
Yes! Is that company named "BALLS Inc" by any chance?
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That is a ridiculous price.
It's not I'm afraid.
It slightly on the high side but certainly in the bounds of reality.
cheers
James
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Really? I wonder how much of that the actual designer sees. I'm also converting to NZD so almost $100 an hour for making some lines on the computer.
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Hi
I know the Styrene and Chlorene bit its a standard response the gas, bit... Ive been through it and its the standards comment, thats why I made it really. I had some samples done in styrene and the truth is, the gas is nasty but its actually very hard to set the lasers up and prevent it melting tooooo much, even tried as etch to snap it and it was still melting off badly.
The material bit as you say is about flexibility etc... and again its who you go to, but I was just listing what the standard reasons are.
As said Sarissa... glad you in talks. They are really good, they have a number of laser different sizes and powers and have a go... its the only way to learn.
Please dont think I was being negative in the response it was just by way of explaining what may be and has been the background to all the crap you, and I have heard.
As for CAD files Im happy FOC if you get the need to cross check outside your CAD system.
Hope all goes well with Sarissa.
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It's not I'm afraid.
It slightly on the high side but certainly in the bounds of reality.
It absolutely NOT a ridiculous per hour price for a professional organisation with trained engineering staff. This was one of the larger organisations. My issue is that they're trying to redraw some thing that doesn't need it, and the idea than I can sketch either the Pryngul tower (100 + pieces) or the DROPship (80ish) is absurd.
Really? I wonder how much of that the actual designer sees. I'm also converting to NZD so almost $100 an hour for making some lines on the computer.
I've regularly quoted for multi million pound jobs built up from engineers hourly rate above this and won work. If you're running a company you have overheads. Development, training, it, payroll, hr, finance teams, legal, sales. And you're buying all that capability.
"Making some lines on the computer" is also a bit insulting to a trained cad operator/engineer.
Gary - I didn't think you were negative. Though I didn't agree with all your comments, many I did.
I agree, styrene (HIPS) is difficult. And yes the edges aren't as sharp as ideally i would want, but it is do-able. I know that because I've had them cut dozens of time before. I'd prefer another material, but the unique element of my models is that they are curved. So I need a material that at 1mm and 0.5mm thicknesses bends like plasticard. I've had people telling me to cut from acrylic instead.
I tend to avoid engraving on styrene as it significantly weakens the material, and any curve put in it then causes it to snap. However I have used very light surface detail to highlight location points or other details. One of the issues with this is that without engraving you can't add part numbers to components on the spruce. So the assembly instructions start looking like this...
https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid=explorer&chrome=true&srcid=0B06t3PB5k709OWRjYTcwYWMtY2I0OS00MjQ3LTg5ZmItODljMTQ3YzllYWIx&hl=en_GB
For those of you who aren't aware, this is the model those instructions produce.
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-dVrmRmxccts/S_0KbO1QnHI/AAAAAAAACi8/u8tUK38HLm8/s1600/tower+ebay.jpg)
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It's not I'm afraid.
It slightly on the high side but certainly in the bounds of reality.
cheers
James
James is right, that's only about what you'd pay for an architectural technician per hour (roughly; and that's up North, not your London rates!).
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Really? I wonder how much of that the actual designer sees. I'm also converting to NZD so almost $100 an hour for making some lines on the computer.
Clients are charged for my work at roughly 100 euros per hour and all I do is play on the computer...
If my car needs fixing, the mechanic charges 70-100 euros per hour. Plumbers, electricians etc . regularly command similar rates. Heck, even a cleaner (normal household chores) charges 40-50 euros per hour.
The thing you need to understand is that I don't get paid anywhere near 100 euros per hour. There's taxes, mandatory insurances, company overhead etc. to take care of before I see a penny of it.
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Have you had Rowmark suggested? Used a lot, buy railway modelers, Glues with EMA Plastic Glues... EMA are a model parts supplier, domes and things http://www.ema-models.co.uk/.
Rowmark is supposed to be a little more rigid and less likely to roll on the edges with cutting.
Just thought I would add this about Styrene, which is the real reason for people turning it down... (Laserscript response to cutting it with a laser)
It's fine to cut it with a laser, it doesn't contain anything that gives of noxious gasses BUT it won't cut very well and will usually result in a rounded and discoloured edge as well as giving off quite a lot of black flecks of soot.
The Flecks won't do the machine a lot of good if they get sucked into your electrical cooling fans.
HIPS is best processed with routers or mechanical cutting such as CNC mills etc
To sum up? it's not dangerous but will look rubbish
As for Hourly rates... Well, having been a 'Designer' for too many years, I find the rate vs return, eg actual work done, never seems to match, and many of my clients have said so too. It always makes me laugh when I hear £150ph and then the lead time for works etc... and my clients then ask me the same, and the hours it takes... I have to say, when I receive the sub standard, poorly drawn, non-BS standard trash that is said to have taken hours, and then takes me time to clean up in an email, Im shocked many can charge what they charge.
Its also amusing when I type time in Acad to find the drawing only has a few hours elapsed and the hours charged are 4 times this... plus 'design' charges etc...
If you look at the agency rates too they wont match the £100ph... its £28ph for the CAD Scot.
This probably explains the suspicious way they viewed you CAD files, and also the way some said it needed reworking, because they couldnt import it properly as they dont actually know how to change settings.
Its a mine field out there... roll a dice make your move.
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Have you had Rowmark suggested? Used a lot, buy railway modelers, Glues with EMA Plastic Glues... EMA are a model parts supplier, domes and things http://www.ema-models.co.uk/.
Rowmark is supposed to be a little more rigid and less likely to roll on the edges with cutting.
Just thought I would add this about Styrene, which is the real reason for people turning it down... (Laserscript response to cutting it with a laser)
It's fine to cut it with a laser, it doesn't contain anything that gives of noxious gasses BUT it won't cut very well and will usually result in a rounded and discoloured edge as well as giving off quite a lot of black flecks of soot.
The Flecks won't do the machine a lot of good if they get sucked into your electrical cooling fans.
HIPS is best processed with routers or mechanical cutting such as CNC mills etc
To sum up? it's not dangerous but will look rubbish
Gary. You are confusing me and not making much sense.
Rowmark appears to be a company, not a material, they produce 2 products aimed in the laser market. Ultra-grave and laser-max. Both those products are multiple laminate acrylic based sheets for laser engraving to produce name plates etc. neither of them are HIPS equivalents or even flexible plastics... Unless I am missing something? None of those products are a suitable replacement for HIPS in my models.
EMA I know well, I advertise them on my blog. You say "EMA plastic glue" which I assume you mean their liquid solvent cement. http://www.ema-models.co.uk/index.php/materials/adhesives/liquid-solvent-cement-500ml.html
Although marketed as EMA glue this is a traditional solvent weld cement. So like similar products from almost any plastic model company, will weld styrene abs acrylic and numerous other plastics.
So, I am confused what you are suggesting...
As to the comments you highlight from laser script. Yes, as I have said many times before, HIPS is trickier to cut than other products, so I understand why some people don't want to. But to say it will "look rubbish" is patently nonsense.
I have had hundreds of sheets cut and sold hundreds of kits cut in HIPS. I've always been happy with the results but more importantly I have never had a single customer complaint, and my models have been very positively received.
I'm not sure what angle you are trying to promote? In your previous post you tried to tell me that cutting HIPS gave off chlorine (which is not chemically possible) and must not be cut in the UK. Now you are telling me I should use a rigid acrylic laminate that isn't flexible?