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Miniatures Adventure => Interwar => Topic started by: moif on 25 January 2015, 06:35:17 PM

Title: Landships
Post by: moif on 25 January 2015, 06:35:17 PM
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_0vhyQjYMZaA/S2Su0BRowjI/AAAAAAAAEdI/Zqshj_8zPJU/s1600/Land+dreadnought.jpg)

There was a time when the theorists and military thinkers, dreamt of tanks so big that they were like battleships in size. These gigantic war machines were imagined to move across the landscape, destroying everything in their path and being unstoppable. 

So I'm interested in multi-turretted tanks of the 1930s, and for a good few years now, I've wanted to build a landship, or possibly two. The questions are many and varied, how big should they be? Which countries could have built them? How could you build something that big in the 1930s and exactly why didn't they? Could you even use a 28mm model of such a monster on a regular table top?

Some tanks, like the Mk VIII*, the Vickers A1E1 Independent and the T-35 are obvious stepping stones to much bigger designs. Most of my sketches are based on these. The model shown below is really a re-arranged armoured train model I built from cardboard. Currently I am drawing up a Russian design based on the same idea, but with far great attention to detail and 'historical accuracy'. By historical accuracy I mean, making the model look more realistic to the period in which it was supposed to have been built - the late 1930s. Any one who has any thoughts on this subject, observations, historical examples or images of old designs is invited to share. 

(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_0vhyQjYMZaA/S6EMwRg-ZXI/AAAAAAAAEuU/cmf-uqjEX_s/s1600/landship_preview.jpg)
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_0vhyQjYMZaA/TGmhKQZkAII/AAAAAAAAFT0/dDWxeUewujQ/s1600/Landship_prototype_2.jpg)
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xaf1/v/t1.0-9/p526x296/10491244_10152597165868045_1643358144946711558_n.jpg?oh=9f894e75a15ef16e894acec7b0cc7c1a&oe=5522940C&__gda__=1432798201_9d26a1359f29ccbbbf35783e51cbe13c)

There is a contention that a machine of this size would be too heavy to move, or at best it would be incredibly slow. The slowness doesn't bother me that much but I have looked at othervery large tracked vehicles to consider weight, and they do exist, some were even built with fairly rudimentary technology. Here are a few examples. I'm particularly interested in the excavators since they are older than the NASA rocket carrier and they bear most of their weight directly over one set of tracks which I suspect would increase ground pressure considerably.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v59/evilmoif/-ROCKETMAN-/r17_zpsf15b3544.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v59/evilmoif/-ROCKETMAN-/r15_zps50aa1b3b.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v59/evilmoif/-ROCKETMAN-/r5_zpsb7813e16.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v59/evilmoif/-ROCKETMAN-/r4_zps8c694e3f.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v59/evilmoif/-ROCKETMAN-/r3_zps8366d4d7.jpg)
Title: Re: Landships
Post by: FramFramson on 25 January 2015, 06:55:26 PM
One thing to keep in mind is that the single greatest reason landships never became a thing is because of air power. So it would be crucial for you to find a way to equip your landships with effective anti-air defences.

A game I've played features an alternate WWII in 1935, where massive landships do exist as "flagships" alongside regular tanks. Key to this world is that aircraft development lagged here long enough for landship design to actually be undertaken seriously (at the time of the war, aircraft have recently been invented but are still experimental and largely militarily ineffectual, being similar to aircraft from about 1905-1910).

All that said, your model looks phemonenal! Did you print rendered parts, or just use sketchup to mockup a design or what? It's an excellent derivation of the multi-turreted tanks of the late 20s. The only thing I'm not entirely sure of is the massive vertical flat square at the front - I prefer your render with a sloped glacis plate. But I can see your tank's not yet finished - do you have plans for that surface?
Title: Re: Landships
Post by: moif on 25 January 2015, 07:10:19 PM
Hi Fram.

I have solved the problem of airpower in my campaign by having Tesla's 'peace ray' develop to the point where a landship could employ one as an energy weapon/shield. Any aircraft that approaches within a radius of twenty kilometers is simply burned from the sky! 

The model you see in my initial post is not a true model of a landship. It was originally an armoured train made from cardboard, for a five game campaign. What you are looking at is the locomotive and two gun carriages glued together to make a 'prototype' model. My current intention is to make this model during the course of this year, using styrene. Right now I'm designing it in detail, hence this post. I also have plans for a British landship design, but this exists only in my head as yet.

As I imagine it, the Russian landship is 21 meters long 7½meters tall (not including the Tesla weapon), has 13 turrets and 2 or 4 sponsons. It requires a crew of 23, has five engines (one is just to power the electrical generator needed for the Tesla weapon).
Title: Re: Landships
Post by: FramFramson on 25 January 2015, 07:39:54 PM
Ah okay, that all makes sense. Seems like you have this largely covered.
Title: Re: Landships
Post by: S_P on 26 January 2015, 01:05:45 AM
This may be of some use:

http://www.currell.net/models/ironclad.htm

Title: Re: Landships
Post by: FramFramson on 26 January 2015, 03:33:58 AM
Here are some other ideas that have been done (from the game I mentioned):

Heavy tank (would be larger than Maus, or at least very close in size - note hatch for scale):

(http://vignette4.wikia.nocookie.net/valkyria/images/4/40/Dromedarius.png/revision/latest?cb=20110913143424)

(http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/valkyria/images/6/62/Imperial_Heavy_Tanks.jpg/revision/latest/scale-to-width/542?cb=20110218113807)


Mid-game boss landship:

(http://vignette4.wikia.nocookie.net/valkyria/images/7/79/Batomys2.png/revision/latest?cb=20120317021957)

With a medium tank for scale (though the ladders help anyway):

(http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/valkyria/images/e/ef/Batomys24.png/revision/latest?cb=20140124211745)


Upgraded version of the same mid-boss, from a sequel game:

(http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/valkyria/images/1/18/Echidna.png/revision/latest?cb=20120317022223)

(http://vignette4.wikia.nocookie.net/valkyria/images/b/b2/Echidna_02.jpg/revision/latest/scale-to-width/620?cb=20110514024946)


Massive hovercraft landship serving as final boss (clearly capital ship-sized):

(http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/valkyria/images/0/0d/Marmota.png/revision/latest?cb=20120402095407)

(http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/valkyria/images/f/f6/MarmotaGlos.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20110520132428)

Title: Re: Landships
Post by: moif on 26 January 2015, 07:42:01 PM
Thanks S_P.

I think I saw that once before, years and years ago but I'd completely forgotten about it. Its an interesting design, not least the skirted wheels. It makes me wonder though, how would they have turned it?

Its interesting to note how so many people dreamt of bigger and bigger tanks, right up until air power in the Second World War put a definitive end to the whole concept. You see Wells and others like him, dreaming of giant tanks, before tanks have even been used. Then the first tanks come along and with the mid war designs adding more and more turrets to bigger and bigger tanks you get a new set of ideas of how tanks might evolve (and this is where my own fascination lies). Finally you get the last gasp with the Nazis and their super tank madness with the Maus, the super heavy tracked mortars and finally the P1000 and P1500 designs.

Fram.

I've seen these tanks on Google image searches but I am not familiar with them nor the game they come from. I like the first two designs, though I'm not all that much impressed by their weaponry since they suffer from the same failing as the Warhammer tanks - too many giant weapons makes them look 'cartoonish' ...in my opinion. I grew up amongst engineers and when ever I see huge calibre guns, I have to wonder how the ammunition is loaded and how many rounds can the vehicle carry with such heavy ordanance? I like the fact that the heavy tank at the top has a crane though. It would need it.
 
What can you tell me about that second image? Is it a model?

Here is another super heavy tank design I have come across during Google image searches. This design belongs to Hayao Miyazaki I believe. Though I've seen most of his films, I don't know what this model is from, possibly a Manga I have not come across yet. Its crewed by pigs, much like the main character in Porco Rosso. (If any one knows what its from, feel free to let me know).

As a design, I have a few quibbles, the tracks are rather narrow for such a huge vehicle and the trench crossing tails for example seem a bit superfluous and contrived, but over all, I really like the shape of it.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v59/evilmoif/-ROCKETMAN-/463_zps40daa093.jpg)(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v59/evilmoif/-ROCKETMAN-/464_zpsf5fa5f58.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v59/evilmoif/-ROCKETMAN-/457_zpsc6f72fbc.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v59/evilmoif/-ROCKETMAN-/448_zps6f41fe6c.jpg)


Title: Re: Landships
Post by: Westfalia Chris on 26 January 2015, 08:24:16 PM
Quote from: moif on 26 January 2015, 07:42:01 PM
Here is another super heavy tank design I have come across during Google image searches. This design belongs to Hayao Miyazaki I believe. Though I've seen most of his films, I don't know what this model is from, possibly a Manga I have not come across yet. Its crewed by pigs, much like the main character in Porco Rosso. (If any one knows what its from, feel free to let me know).

As a design, I have a few quibbles, the tracks are rather narrow for such a huge vehicle and the trench crossing tails for example seem a bit superfluous and contrived, but over all, I really like the shape of it.

It's called the "Akuyaku #1" ("Bad Guy No. 1") and was originally featured in a double-page spread published as part of Mr. Miyazaki's column in Model Grafix magazine in December 1984 (collected as "Daydream Notes" in 1992 and 1997). Nothing beyond that, but the Asuka (ex Tasca) Models 1/72 kit pops up now and then.
Title: Re: Landships
Post by: FramFramson on 26 January 2015, 09:50:29 PM
The second image, which I'm assuming you mean the second image of the generic heavy tank, is just a sepia toned CGI image. No model - sorry!
Title: Re: Landships
Post by: tin shed gamer on 26 January 2015, 10:36:07 PM
I did a similar imgame search after reading your post yesterday.I'm of a mind that most of the concepts are manga inspired.
Have you read Philip Reeve's Mortal Engine's book's. There well written books aimed at older children.They cover this subject upto whole cities on the move.Its a world in which high tech is married with airships bi planes and seem's to fit in with your use of Tesla weapon's.
If that's a little to far off the mark.Then look at the American Idea's for super tanks and land train from ww2.I know they built a chassis of one before giving up.I think the concept was called Amtrak(but not the marine buffalo apc.)I know I've a brief mention of it and a photo of the chassis in a book on Allied armour some where.I'll dig it out and post it the actual project name,as I've had a sleep or two,since I last read anything on ww2 armour
Mark.
Title: Re: Landships
Post by: moif on 30 January 2015, 08:30:28 PM
Fram.

I figured as much. Too bad. I would have bought that!


tin shed gamer

Thank you, yes, I have read Philip Reeve's 'Mortal Engines', though it was a while back. I could easily have gone down that road except in the beginning, I was buying 1/56 scale tanks from the interwar period and trying to build a campaign world around them. Now I have started to build my own models and I try to mesh those with the existing designs I have. I use an alternative history where Hitler has been assassinated, and Stalin is an alien plant (plant as in vegetable). The Second World War still happens but in a very different way - more like the theoricians had envisioned after the First World War ended.

Scurv (and tin shed gamer)

I'd heard of the Amtrak but I'd forgottenabout it, and I'd never seen a picture of it before now. It looks very interesting.

I have a Char 2c in 1/56. I have never actually used it in a game yet though so it remains unpainted. The design I'm working on at the moment is much larger than the Char 2c but I've used the model as a secondary source of inspiration. One of the questions I've been pondering, is how would engineers in the mid war period go about making such a huge machine. What would their solutions look like? Since my design is meant to be Russian, it also borrows design features from the T35.

Regarding airpower, Tesla claimed his 'peace ray' could sweep the skies clear for 200km beyond the borders of any nation. I'm not sure if that was true or just hyperbole, but if any one could do it, I'm sure he could have. The guy was touched by the spirit of genius. Having airpower negated also serves my purposes since the model design I have settled on, is really far too big to operate on a table top so this gives me an alternative; a clandestine commando style mission to take out the super tank whilst it is wounded by artillery, broken down due to the complexity of its construction or just simply camped out for the night, etc.

So far, I've only been sketching up idea and working diagrams but the model is taking shape now. Here is the first of the big plates, cut to begin the right side track assembly.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v59/evilmoif/-ROCKETMAN-/landshiptrackassembly_right_001_zps9fae768f.jpg)
Title: Re: Landships
Post by: moif on 09 February 2015, 02:24:31 AM
Here are a few more pictures of interwar dreaming. Some of them, as images are quite awe inspiring, especially the first one, which looks terrific but would probably be useless even if it could have been built. Others, like the battleship on wheels idea, are simply amusing. The last one is of course a modern presentation of one of these older designs.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v59/evilmoif/Morlock/t10_zpsd459376a.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v59/evilmoif/Morlock/t8_zps1849a2e4.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v59/evilmoif/Morlock/t15_zps513bf745.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v59/evilmoif/Morlock/t17_zps038be5af.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v59/evilmoif/Morlock/t11_zps08590f74.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v59/evilmoif/Morlock/t9_zpsb7a77b1f.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v59/evilmoif/Morlock/land_fortress02_zps40cf93bb.jpg)(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v59/evilmoif/Morlock/land_fortress03_zpsd261862d.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v59/evilmoif/Morlock/land_submarine_dreadnought__scale__by_mcqeulinferenzio-d6dx519_zps164ce9f5.png)
Title: Re: Landships
Post by: moif on 14 February 2015, 03:09:06 PM
I'm not sure how to do my track links. With my previous models, I've invariably used styrene L beams, but this model is so big it kind of needs something a bit more impressive, so I've been looking at getting something done on a 3d printer. I have no experience of this method of production however so I have been experimenting with SketchUp. This is my first attempt. The link is 10mm wide.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v59/evilmoif/Morlock/Trackelement01a_zpsf3847909.png)

This is my third attempt - also 10mm wide. It is still missing the underside.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v59/evilmoif/Morlock/Trackelement03b_zpsd0daa41f.png)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v59/evilmoif/Morlock/Trackelement03a_zps6b6e980c.png)
Title: Re: Landships
Post by: moif on 17 February 2015, 06:34:07 PM
All four front wheels under construction. Next up are the four rear/drive wheels, and then fifty two road wheels

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v59/evilmoif/-ROCKETMAN-/P1010182_zps750f621c.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v59/evilmoif/-ROCKETMAN-/P1010186_zps26ee3b2d.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v59/evilmoif/-ROCKETMAN-/P1010187_zps69c92060.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v59/evilmoif/-ROCKETMAN-/P1010188_zps9eb01c38.jpg)
Title: Re: Landships
Post by: von Lucky on 17 February 2015, 08:45:18 PM
The beginnings of a madman. I love it.
Title: Re: Landships
Post by: moif on 18 February 2015, 01:34:34 PM
Hi Scruv.
I used 1mm and ½mm thick styrene sheet.
First I cut the main discs, each 20mm in diameter from 1mm thick styrene.
Then I measured out more discs at 16mm diameter onn a sheet of ½mm styrene and drew lines that divided them up into eight parts. I taped this styrene down and drilled 3mm holes at the points shown in the image below.
Then I glued the two 20mm diameter discs together using scraps of styrene to make sure the wheels were exactly 7½mm thick.
I cut out the 16mm diameter discs and added them to the wheels then cut two more discs at 10mm diameter from ½mm thick styrene and added these to the out sides of the wheels - these represent the axles.
Next I filled in the wheel using Milliput.
Finally I added pre made bolts from Meng-Models
http://www.meng-model.com/index2_new.php?id=213

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v59/evilmoif/-ROCKETMAN-/P1010184_zps154cf617.jpg)
 
Title: Re: Landships
Post by: TadPortly on 23 February 2015, 01:14:42 PM
Very much looking forward to seeing this finished.