Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => Medieval Adventures => Topic started by: huevans on February 24, 2015, 02:14:12 AM
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(https://www.perry-miniatures.com/images/wr/frame_medium.jpg)
(https://www.perry-miniatures.com/images/wr/LC_2.jpg)
(https://www.perry-miniatures.com/images/wr/LC_1.jpg)
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very nice, ill take a box or 4 :D :D
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Very very excited about the release of this box set. With any luck Perry Miniatures will offer a package deal like they did for the Burgundian Squadron. (and maybe a special miniature to boot!) ;D
Cheers,
Fred
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Great timing, anyone know when they are due for release?
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I'll take 4 of the, please. :D
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They will be released at Salute.
I was lucky enough to be given a frame of these by Michael Perry when I was at Tactica in Hamburg at the weekend, so I hope to make a few up and post pics in the next few days.
Lovely figures - some wonderful new heads in there.
These painted examples are by Painterman - lovely work Simon :-*
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so I hope to make a few up and post pics in the next few days.
Less posting on here and more painting if you don't mind ;)
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Very nice minis, as always with the Perry brothers.
Lots of details and options, and the horses look very good too !
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Now they look good. Once I've grabbed myself a box I'll start putting the others together. :D
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Very nice minis, as always with the Perry brothers.
Lots of details and options, and the horses look very good too !
The horse sprue is actually the same as the one in the Mounted Men At Arms set.
But still offers huge potential variety, so I'm not bothered about that :)
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Simon has done an excellent job on those, really good colours too
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How common are crossbow armed cavalry? Seems like a clumsy weapon to use on horseback. Or would they fight like dragoons? Or does no one know!?
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There are some medieval illustrations of crossbows being used from horseback, but I think the mounted archers and mounted crossbowmen figures are mainly intended to portray soldiers riding to and from battle / between actions, which we know happened. Whilst there's some evidence that crossbows were used from horseback, I'm pretty sure longbows weren't.
I think mounted crossbowmen are primarily continental / mercenaries rather than English.
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Very much looking forward to these models. :-*
How common are crossbow armed cavalry? Seems like a clumsy weapon to use on horseback. Or would they fight like dragoons? Or does no one know!?
Actually, before the spreading of pistols the crossbow was by far the easiest long-range weapon to use from horseback. It requires no strength to draw (although it could be done without a lever) and less skill to aim than a bow. Longbows and arquebuses are definitely more cumbersome; the latter can be fired from the saddle, but not only does reloading take a lot longer than preparing a crossbow, it also becomes nearly impossible if the horse is moving. On the other hand I can think of a number of – admittedly, just from my area of interest, the 16th century – sources which mention crossbows being shot from trotting or even cantering horses. (All European practice, don't know about the British Isles.)
That said, dismounting was always an option for crossbowmen and arquebusiers – and most likely a necessity for longbow-equipped archers.
EDIT: Ack, ninja-ed by the Captain. o_o
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What's not to like :D
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Border horse used a smaller crossbow known as a latch to fire from horseback, as well as pistols in the later 16c.
Mounted archers were simply that for mobility though some fought as light horse in a reconnaissance and ground holding manner in a dragoon role.
Often archer and mounted archer can mean the same or different things in contemporary records. I've found this in Tudor records so it's quite hard to figure out a quantity of mounted archers in the dragoon role.
In either case I do not believe they (mounted archers) were intended to fight from horseback, I'm sure they defended themselves but I dare say they would be no match for enemy horse.
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One would definitely find mounted crossbowmen in continental armies of the second half of the 15th C. (notably the Swiss/South Germans, Italians). As has been already noted mounted archers would only be for mobility and not as a fighting platform.
Cheers,
Fred
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Whilst there's some evidence that crossbows were used from horseback, I'm pretty sure longbows weren't.
Whilst there is scant evidence of English Archers using the warbow from horseback there is as Mike Loades points out in the footage from his series Weapons that Made Britain, The Longbow a manuscript in the Bibliotheque Nationale featuring longbowmen using their bows from horseback. If you fast forward the following Youtube video to about 24.00mins he presents his case:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5tuJvei2Uw8&list=PLGRp0KocvpygkW0nLf8w_AayCCO6n-S6l
Interesting.....
Darrell.
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This image adds fuel to the fire too
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This image adds fuel to the fire too
Thanks Stuart.
Of course it's perfectly possible that this (and the images on the manuscript in the Bibliotheque Nationale) but.......
I think Mike Loades clearly demonstrates that it's perfectly possible to loose an arrow with a warbow from horseback. There's no earthly reason to think why his forbears would not have also done so IMHO. When you consider how much of the HYW was actually mounted raids/chevauchee it would certainly have happened from time to time- say if you're just interested in destruction, burning etc.
Of course, this not only applies to the HYW. Much of Medieval Warfare was like this in Western Europe.
Darrell.
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Yeah, I'm gonna stick with the burden of proof is to show that English archers ever fought from horseback (apart from dropping the odd stag for their dinner).
While that is a beautiful painting, a 16th century artists interpretation of warfare doesn't move me much on this one. There is no doubt that someone _could_ loose arrows mounted, that isn't the same as fighting en mass the same way. Its notable to me that Japanese long bows differ from their English counterparts in that they were designed for better usage from horseback.
Just my thoughts.
... but I still want these models ASAP! ;)
Cheers,
Fred
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Yeah, I'm gonna stick with the burden of proof is to show that English archers ever fought from horseback (apart from dropping the odd stag for their dinner).
While that is a beautiful painting, a 16th century artists interpretation of warfare doesn't move me much on this one. There is no doubt that someone _could_ loose arrows mounted, that isn't the same as fighting en mass the same way.
I think you've misunderstood. No-one is saying that they fought en masse on horseback- simply that at times, in raids or other such circumstances it was bound to have happened.
Its notable to me that Japanese long bows differ from their English counterparts in that they were designed for better usage from horseback.
Japanese bows have not been not mentioned. It is a specific point that Mike Loades refers to in the video footage on Youtube that I presented in an earlier post. :)
Darrell.
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Very nice stuff ! :o
Honestly a set I've been waiting for since the WotR range caught me. As Captain Blood and several others I was lucky enough to see the sprue and the figures in Hamburg. Honestly a set which will be one of the best Michael and Alan made so far I presume.
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Another vote here for some bowmen being able to shoot from horseback - in skirmishes, raids and what have you at least. I don't think anyone here would argue against the massed archer on foot as being the typical employment.
Nevertheless if you can drop a stag, you can drop a man. Besides the one shown in this thread and the one in Mike Loades' video, there are other examples of European mounted bowmen shooting while mounted around.
There is no physical reason why a longbow couldn't be used mounted, as all the force used comes from the back, shoulders and arms; legs don't come into it, other than to keep the bow out of the ground.
When you consider the numbers of archers identified who crossed over to become men at arms during their HYW careers too, I think its safe to say that we shouldn't be too dismissive of their ability to act as light horse either.
That being said I severely doubt every mounted archer possessed the riding or shooting skills for both these roles and I imagine some would struggle to stay mounted at anything more than a trot, presuming their nag didn't have a heart attack and keel over.
As with all things Medieval though, you can't use a broad brush and say 'everybody didn't do/did this', troops defied pigeon-holing and had no idea that they were supposed to adopt the 1970s-style job demarcation philosophy of "Ride those peasants down and shoot the ones I can't catch? *sharp intake of breath* Not my job mate, you need a dragoon for that mate".
;)
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These really do look great, very much looking forward to this release.
I have a lot of plastic sets from the Perry Brothers but I think the Late Medieval sets are my favourites. Each one is great as an individual box set but the fact that they have all been designed with the ability to mix and match parts is amazing.
Keeping my fingers crossed that we see more plastic additons for this range in the future. I personally would love to see something like a boxed set for Irish troops. :)
Steve
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Some good thoughts brought up here. Sometimes my thinking gets a bit rigid as I think of army composition on what might be referred to as 'grand tactical' scale. With some of the new game systems (like SAGA) many folks are gaming encounters with a few dozen to a couple hundred combatants rather than a couple of thousand.
Cheers,
Fred
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I've been a Re-enactor long enough to know that when a member of a Re-enactment group asks if something (some piece of cloth or equipment or way of doing things etc) could have existed, if you are fool enough to answer "yes, perhaps, but very rarely", you're sure that he will have it / do it at the next event :-[ and the next season you'll find that all your group is doing it >:(
Wargamers are not a different kind :D
As already mentioned, the purpose of mounted longbowmen/crossbowmen was to follow the chevauchée faster than on foot, and to dismount for battle, not to act as cavalry. I agree it's not impossible to shoot from horseback, but (if permitted) it should suffer very bad tactical factors in a game...
Oh - and nice miniatures BTW! :-*
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As already mentioned, the purpose of mounted longbowmen/crossbowmen was to follow the chevauchée faster than on foot, and to dismount for battle, not to act as cavalry. I agree it's not impossible to shoot from horseback, but (if permitted) it should suffer very bad tactical factors in a game...
Oh - and nice miniatures BTW! :-*
Hi Patrice,
I wasn't arguing for new rules to be introduced in a game, though occasionally I may introduce Mounted Warbow Loosing 'rule' to be used in some capacity in my Lion Rampant games as a rare event in certain scenarios.
My intent upon pointing out Mike Loades' theory was simply to show that it was possible and was likely to have taken place. After all, archers were employed not only because of their expert use of the Warbow but because of their versatility as soldiers (not to mention that they were a lot cheaper to employ!).
Darrell.
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...and the next season you'll find that all your group is doing it >:(
This is very true, wargamers do tend to suffer from the "if one why not all?" mentality. lol
Off the top of my head (a dangerous standpoint for any debate) the only 'nation' noted for mounted skirmisher/shooters in Western Europe was Italy (if you exclude Spain's javelin-armed Jinetes). German mounted crossbows apparently fired a single bolt to support the charge of their men at arms, then joined in the melee themselves rather than reloading... but then they appear to have been a solid body of men rather than 'skirmishers'. French Archers eventually morphed into 'medium cavalry' (not light cavalry) and abandoned the bow altogether.
The inference is that shooting while mounted was not very effective on the whole, otherwise you would have the English with the reputation as being like a latter-day Mongol horde, rather than as an infantry army where even the 'cavalry' dismounted. While you can argue for a resurgence of 'cavalry' tactics during the Wars of the Roses, when like fought against like, not so much against anyone else.
That some skilled mounted archers could apparently mimic the 'dragoons' of later times should not be taken as meaning 'all mounted archers were like dragoons'.
*Edit* It actually might be better to say that quite a few mounted scouts (afore-riders, scowrers - call them what you will) were bow-armed, rather than to start talking about the much more numerous mounted archers as having the ability to shoot mounted. It would probably be more in context to the reality maybe.
:)
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Afterall, the English countryside isn't the Mongolian steppes - all those massive medieval hedges would surely have soon unseated a force of horsemen plucking bow strings at the gallop! :)
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Interested in getting these for my LR Wars of the Roses retinue - no surprises there. Any suggestions on how best to build them? Use the lances, the crossbows, the bows, etc? I'm not historically anal about these things, I will most likely choose what looks best to be honest. And given the conversation to date I think I can claim accuracy whatever I go with. But I am interested in being fairly accurate, so which way to go - based on adding to my 24 point retinue? I would be surprised if the crossbows could be included, never heard of them being used in that conflict, though as I say I am no expert.
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Really I don't want to overwork the discussion about mounted archery here but let me share my personal experience with this matter:
Until my back became bad I practised longbow archery for a couple of years. Most of the time either target shooting on 3D hunter parkours or cloud shooting. From time to time we had rather funny events and tried kind of special exercises. Once we tried to shoot from a wooden horse and my personal summary is: Unsuitable as tactical option.
Of course it is possible to hold the extracted bow near the horse and loose the string but literally permanently something hinders you to move freely. Over the horse's neck you cannot move the bow sideways, you need both hands to perform shooting and you need to be an excellent rider to control the horse with your legs only.
Thus I presume that mounted archery is no real tactical option. Maybe (sic !) in skirmish games for a very limited number of heroic models it might be a special feature.
Probably it's easy to operate a crossbow while mounted in case it's gripping mechanism is appropriate...
Just my two pence...
Cheers
Stefan
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There are lots of famous (alleged) horse archers in history I know, from Scythians to Samurai. I suppose the question here is whether a sodding great yew longbow is really a practical weapon to shoot successfully from horseback. Obviously it can be done with smaller, lighter composite bows... But a 6ft longbow stave with a 50lb draw weight? With the gee-gee underneath you moving around all the time? Seems unlikely, although that's not to say it was never done, and I will certainly be making a figure firing his longbow from horseback - just because I can :D
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There are lots of famous (alleged) horse archers in history I know, from Scythians to Samurai. I suppose the question here is whether a sodding great yew longbow is really a practical weapon to shoot successfully from horseback. Obviously it can be done with smaller, lighter composite bows... But a 6ft longbow stave with a 50lb draw weight? With the gee-gee underneath you moving around all the time? Seems unlikely, although that's not to say it was never done, and I will certainly be making a figure firing his longbow from horseback - just because I can :D
50lb minimum I would declare!
The first time I tried to draw a bow it was a 50lb bow as recommended by the bowyer and I found it quite easy to draw to the ear. I'm 5'7 max.
I'm sticking to my guns and staying with the theory that the Warbow would sometimes have been used from horseback. Watch the Mike Loades video that I've included in an earlier post Richard. does he look as though he's struggling?
Ao-one is suggesting that English Longbowmen were mounted archers as in the famous warriors of the Steppes, but they were versatile troops, especially on raids etc.
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Interesting points. :)
In fact it depends on what we are talking about: the difference between "mounted foot" and true cavalry.
To shoot effectively from horseback you need: guys who are 1) good at shooting and 2) good to ride a horse; but (perhaps the most important and most difficult to prepare) you also need 3) war horses trained to accept all the noise and fury of battle and that will not panick when you'll be shooting. Without such horses, you are "mounted foot" whatever you can do.
If it was of any tactical interest, at least some units of such troops would have been raised, trained, and used in battle. It was not the case. This is not to say that some guys may never have shot from horseback in some special situations.
- Back to these wonderful miniatures: it's very interesting that they include (true) cavalry without complete armour but charging with couched lances, which indeed developped in this period, probably from poor lesser nobility unable to buy expensive armour (a difference with the "hobilars" of the early HYW who were "mounted foot" yeomen IMO). That's probably what French texts call "courrours" or "coureurs", scouts able to fight with lances on horseback, who clashed with their enemy counterparts before big battles.
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50lb minimum I would declare!
The first time I tried to draw a bow it was a 50lb bow as recommended by the bowyer and I found it quite easy to draw to the ear. I'm 5'7 max.
Agreed, a 50lb longbow is manageable but medieval longbows of the 14th and 15th century had much more than this. A couple of years ago historians found well-preserved longbows in the wreck of "Mary Rose" which sank 1545 north of the Isle of Wight. They examined the bows and estimated their draw weights somewhere between 150lbs and 160lbs. Archers practised weekly to be able to handle this weapon and to use it accurately.
Honestly I doubt that Mike Loads employed such a beast of war.
Concerning the other points I second Patrice. English archers were expert bowmen but until now I found no hint that they might have been expert horsemen as well. So to my mind mounted archers were a very versatile kind of warriors. Probably priceless as scouts or other roles of light cavalry. But mounted archery... Most unlikely to my mind. Except of very, very rare occasions for particular soldiers...
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Okay
I'm just giving mine spears
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Agreed, a 50lb longbow is manageable but medieval longbows of the 14th and 15th century had much more than this. A couple of years ago historians found well-preserved longbows in the wreck of "Mary Rose" which sank 1545 north of the Isle of Wight. They examined the bows and estimated their draw weights somewhere between 150lbs and 160lbs. Archers practised weekly to be able to handle this weapon and to use it accurately.
Honestly I doubt that Mike Loads employed such a beast of war.
That is exactly my point. My first attempt at loosing a longbow was a 50lb bow and it was not difficult. I merely pointed it out as Captain Blood seemed to be intimating that a bow of a 50lb draw weight was 'normal' in the Late Medieval period. This is not the case as you have pointed out.
Concerning the other points I second Patrice. English archers were expert bowmen but until now I found no hint that they might have been expert horsemen as well. So to my mind mounted archers were a very versatile kind of warriors. Probably priceless as scouts or other roles of light cavalry. But mounted archery... Most unlikely to my mind. Except of very, very rare occasions for particular soldiers...
Oh boy.... Just to reiterate, I at least am not referring to Expert horsemen nor mounted archers as in the mould of the Steppe Nomad.
I think I'll bow out..... please watch the Mike Loades footage I provided in my post above and decide for yourself :)
Darrell.
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Alright, alright, alright! And... relax.
:)
Can we leave it there? Please?
For as the wise Arlequin always points out, the truth is we just don't know any of this for sure. So getting into a long argument about it is a bit pointless, and the kind of thing they enjoy on certain other forums, but we've tried to avoid here on LAF 8)
Let's just celebrate the arrival of another beautiful Perry baby :)
May it bring us many hours of happiness and amusement - and not too much argument.
Okay
I'm just giving mine spears
lol
Brilliant.
Certainly sounds the safest option...
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Seems unlikely, although that's not to say it was never done, and I will certainly be making a figure firing his longbow from horseback - just because I can :D
Ok, Captain, I think you are a rebel-boy. And I know you will game with this miniature! Very, very rebellious, I think. lol
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Sorry, Darrell, I really didn't want to offent you or to annoy you. I just doubt that Mr Loads used a warbow with more than 100lbs... Anyway I got your point but Richard is right:
Let's just celebrate the arrival of another beautiful Perry baby :)
May it bring us many hours of happiness and amusement - and not too much argument.
Hear! Hear!
Aye, Captain. :)
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English archers were expert bowmen but until now I found no hint that they might have been expert horsemen as well.
Not sure about expert archers... but they were at least adequate or they wouldn't draw an archer's pay. As for horsemen, don't forget we are in an age where a horseman owned his mount ergo he was a 'rider', unless of course he was in a retinue and had one provided, but even then if you had a number of archers to choose from you'd surely give the horses to the men who could ride them?
The (Howard) Duke of Norfolk bought one of his archers a boar spear along with an expensive bow, so the inference is that he could hunt boar on horseback and warranted a bow that cost more than the one Norfolk bought for himself. Of course you can make of that what you will and of course it is only one example, but for me he was an adequate enough horseman to hunt on horseback and a fine archer... whether the two complemented the other in action is of course unknown.
Let's just celebrate the arrival of another beautiful Perry baby :)
Indeed, I got caught up in the discussion (nothing new there ;) ) and forgot to mention how pleased I am with these, they've been a long time coming.
Obviously I'm looking forwards to seeing what yourself and others do with them and can of course finally buy the whole host of packs to mix and match myself... at some point I might get reunited with my paints etc too.
;)
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Sorry, Darrell, I really didn't want to offent you or to annoy you. I just doubt that Mr Loads used a warbow with more than 100lbs... Anyway I got your point but Richard is right:Hear! Hear!
Aye, Captain. :)
I'm not offended in the least. i agree with the Cap'n... we're not TMP!! Oops..... ;) :)
Back to the lovely mini's :)
Darrell.
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Back to the forthcoming minis...ahem.
I've posted some more pics of the painted examples on my blog, in case anyone wants more forensic examination.
They are excellent figures (and these were just the test sprues), with many useful parts for conversions etc.
Cheers
Simon.
http://je-lay-emprins.blogspot.co.uk/
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I think medieval mounted trebuchets were common as well.
... heheheh ...
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I've posted some more pics of the painted examples on my blog, in case anyone wants more forensic examination.
They are excellent figures (and these were just the test sprues), with many useful parts for conversions etc.
Saw these in Hamburg at the weekend Simon. Very nice work. I'm looking forward to building from the test sprue Michael kindly gave me, and seeing what I can come up with :)
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I've posted some more pics of the painted examples on my blog, in case anyone wants more forensic examination.
They are excellent figures (and these were just the test sprues), with many useful parts for conversions etc.
Cheers
Simon.
http://je-lay-emprins.blogspot.co.uk/
Thanks for posting some more pics, nice to see some detail shots, great paint job too.
Steve
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Okay
I'm just giving mine spears
Any proof they used spears on horseback...? ::)
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Dear Simon
We'll done with the painting and the review.
Mick
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Thanks for the kind words on the painting.
Back to the use of missile weapons on horseback (apologies to Richard the moderator!), but I find this image of great interest. Its by the Master A, and is Franco-Burgundian of circa 1475 and is suppose to be one of a limited number of images of contemporary troops. If we believe what we see, it shows a fighting unit of mounted troops, with lance armed front rank, supported by 2 ranks of mounted crossbows.
This suggests to me that both crossbows were used on horse (note on close inspection at least one man using a cranequin) and that weapon types were integrated. Schilling Chronicle images from the same period nearly always show one or two crossbowmen on horse supporting mounted men at arms, often firing at the opposition, by means of providing 'covering fire'.
I'm increasingly convinced that fighting contingents of 'mixed' weapons (ie bows and man arms) were very common in 14th and 15th century armies - its just problematic for us wargamers who have rules written which reflect units of a single weapon type.
(http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r146/chicks_photos/424973_488100367900922_1357082336_n_zpsmq6bsd8k.jpg) (http://s143.photobucket.com/user/chicks_photos/media/424973_488100367900922_1357082336_n_zpsmq6bsd8k.jpg.html)
Sorry if this protracts this thread even further on the point of mounted missile use. :?
Cheers
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(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-9D9-0Y53hLM/Uu7CxjmfBAI/AAAAAAAAS7g/vK1DlTfwP7I/w678-h493-no/Hausbuch_Wolfegg_21v_22r_Scharfrennen.jpg)
These figures may look very familiar when you look at the new sprues. Note the shields AND the group to the right who are a mix of lance and crossbow armed men.
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-PBj9RjhAweE/VO5bEBJq-CI/AAAAAAAATq0/Nf-3ntmoKKk/w328-h493-no/Hausbuch_Wolfegg_51v_52r1_Heerzug_Ryttare2.jpg)
Similar mixed crossbow guys and 'lancers' on the move. Same source.
super magnified image here: http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk50/Dstaberg/Utrustning%20aka%20Equipment/Hausbuch_Wolfegg_51v_52r1_Heerzug_Ryttare2.jpg
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Ooops I'm sorry if I am too harsh when expressing my opinions, it's certainly not intended (blame my poor grasp of the subtelities of the language!) :?
I'm increasingly convinced that fighting contingents of 'mixed' weapons (ie bows and man arms) were very common in 14th and 15th century armies
Yes, they rode to battle together: a man-at-arms followed by his servant lancer and a few bows/xbows. Then they separated before the battle, and the shooters fought on foot...
a manuscript in the Bibliotheque Nationale featuring longbowmen using their bows from horseback.
Yes the drawing shows that, but the text (of Froissart) in the same source about this battle at the Blanche-Taque / Blanquetaque ford crossing on the river Somme is not so clear. I had a look at it again, it seems to mean that the English longbowmen were shooting while their men-at-arms were crossing...
Anyway, if the longbowmen had horses they would obviously try to cross the river mounted, even if fighting with their swords on the other bank...
I'm just giving mine spears
Do I miss some joke here? ::)
But I don't mean that such nice minis should not be used.
I would suggest:
– If your rules allow to buy non-war-trained horses for a cheap budget, bring some of these mounted shooters on the game table at full speed with your cavalry scouts, and dismount them where you need them, faster than your foot bowmen could have arrived. "Mounted foot" can be very useful as fast infantry. Of course it needs that you have similar minis on foot.
– Or include one or two of them in command bases/units and tell other players that they will not shoot in the game but that they nicely represent personal followers of your commanders.
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hey Painterman nice blog!
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The Twins wisely avoided to tackle this delicate topic by depicting all missile troops in travelling mode. Good call! lol
If shooting from horseback was common practice in the Medieval period, either generally or just with particular weapons, is yet to be researched. I only have, like said, a passing interest in crossbows (and, to a degree, handguns) and their use in the Holy Roman Empire of that time, anything beyond might be totally different. In these parts, though, shooting crossbows from the saddle was at least a recommended tactic: Philipp von Seldeneck, writing a "Kriegsbuch" (book of war) somewhen in the later 15th century, explains how to deploy mounted crossbowmen, who were to 'volley fire' at the enemy just before the accompanying body of knights would charge in. Here's an illustration from another book (by Philipp Mönch, c. 1496) probably showing that very approach and possibly some countermeasures:
(http://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/20/1034_26_02_15_9_52_04_1.jpg)
Also, shooting while mounted was part of formal training as advertised by the likes of Hans Talhoffer (again, latter half of the 15th century):
(http://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/20/1034_26_02_15_9_52_03_0.jpg)
Of course, there are a lot of limiting factors in the interpretation of such descriptions. Thus I wouldn't assume that every mounted crossbowman was able or even required to shoot from horseback. It's just a possibility, and therefore it could well be represented in wargaming as an option(!).
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... probably showing that very approach and possibly some countermeasures:
I'm guessing roving musicians is not the countermeasure you meant. lol
I've never seen that top picture before, so thanks for that. It's very interesting in a number of ways, not least the halberds being in the middle of the pike block and in some quantity, the total lack of skirmishers and the very deep 'German' formations of men at arms massed on only one flank.
I doubt many wargamers would deploy their army in this fashion. :)
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I'm guessing roving musicians is not the countermeasure you meant. lol
Who knows, the Ottoman army as well as the Scots were quite successful with scary music. Now there's another discussion! lol
Re the illustration of the army in array: There's a number of books with this kind of depiction, all quite schematic. Some even include fantasy weaponry, obviously inspired by classical texts. So we really don't have a clue if these descriptions can be taken at face value for real world tactics. No coincidence that it shares a lot with reconstructions of the Late Roman military based exclusively on the fancy 'recommendations‘ of Vegetius.
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Suck it up... ;) :D
(http://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/20/577_26_02_15_7_48_12_0.JPG)
(http://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/20/577_26_02_15_7_46_41_3.JPG)
Detailed review of the new light cavalry frame, plus my builds from the test frame Michael Perry kindly gave me at the weekend...
http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=40936.1455
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So pretty :o
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Suck it up... ;) :D
(http://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/20/577_26_02_15_7_48_12_0.JPG)
(http://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/20/577_26_02_15_7_46_41_3.JPG)
Detailed review of the new light cavalry frame, plus my builds from the test frame Michael Perry kindly gave me at the weekend...
http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=40936.1455
Lovely seamless work Richard!! Get him painted up pronto!!
Darrell.
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Besides any historical background dicussion this conversion is really excellent.
;)
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Besides any historical background dicussion this conversion is really excellent.
;)
Very true :)
Darrell.
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like him !!! Even when there can only be a few of them ;)
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There are lots of famous (alleged) horse archers in history I know, from Scythians to Samurai. I suppose the question here is whether a sodding great yew longbow is really a practical weapon to shoot successfully from horseback. Obviously it can be done with smaller, lighter composite bows... But a 6ft longbow stave with a 50lb draw weight? With the gee-gee underneath you moving around all the time? Seems unlikely, although that's not to say it was never done, and I will certainly be making a figure firing his longbow from horseback - just because I can :D
I always assumed it was possible...Maybe the accuracy wasn´t as achievable as when using one from a Standing Position but loosing arrows from horseback into the "Brown"..?
if this guy can, then someone who was brought up with horses and bows definately could.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gcpHB-flwJQ
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I think that is worth remembering. The English of this period (particularly those contracted and commissioned) were not from an equestrian tradition. We're not speaking of the knightly classes were talking working class soldiers.
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Yes, obviously it is possible to do it!
...with some training.
However, the tactical efficacity in battle is still an interesting subject for discussion. :)
(http://www.vam.ac.uk/__data/assets/image/0017/217016/63762-large.jpg)
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I think that is worth remembering. The English of this period (particularly those contracted and commissioned) were not from an equestrian tradition. We're not speaking of the knightly classes were talking working class soldiers.
I beg to differ... while indeed the typical foot archer was 'working class' to 'lower-middle class', with a fair few 'yeomen' smallholders at the top end (income range of £2-£10 pa), the bulk of the mounted archers were not (£10-15 pa), they were the wealthier of the yeomenry -outright owners of land... on a par with farmers today, so indeed while they might claim poverty, their poverty was of a different order to the rest of us and they walked nowhere, and often owned several horses.
Okay a fair number of professional mounted archers will have risen from the ranks and gained mounts and equipment by fair means or foul, but nevertheless and whichever way you cut it, mounted archers were horse-owners and only a small step below the 'gentleman squire' who made up the bulk of the men at arms... the poorer of whom can be found in the Tudor era serving as mounted archers.
So while strictly-speaking not an 'equestrian class' (bearing in mind a fair number of the men at arms class weren't so noble - the elder two Pastons were lawyers and the first one's wife was a 'bondswoman' - a serf), neither were they uncertain which end of a horse was the front.
:)
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I beg to differ... while indeed the typical foot archer was 'working class' to 'lower-middle class', with a fair few 'yeomen' smallholders at the top end (income range of £2-£10 pa), the bulk of the mounted archers were not (£10-15 pa), they were the wealthier of the yeomenry -outright owners of land... on a par with farmers today, so indeed while they might claim poverty, their poverty was of a different order to the rest of us and they walked nowhere, and often owned several horses.
Exactly. From 20 mins in this vid
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lR0wssl9fWo
(the same one the Clip of loosing arrows using a longbow from horseback came from) he mentions how well paid the mounted archers were..6 pence a day compared to 4 pence for a foot archer..and they were quite well off before being employed in any campaign, they owned land and thier own horses, like the one mentioned in the video, William Jauderell.
Riding horses was a skill they had already aquired as was the use of a longbow..so why couldn´t /wouldn´t they on Occasion Combine the two?
Not an equestrian Tradition like say some eurasian cultures but nonetheless, they weren´t all Hollywood style footsloggers.
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Sorry bout the threadomancy, but I hadnt seen this posted, and I myself certainly missed it, buried, as it was, in the comments of some picture on facebook.
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I missed these,wonder what they are like compared to fireforge cavalry?
I may get some of these,to mix bits. lol
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I beg to differ... while indeed the typical foot archer was 'working class' to 'lower-middle class', with a fair few 'yeomen' smallholders at the top end (income range of £2-£10 pa), the bulk of the mounted archers were not (£10-15 pa), they were the wealthier of the yeomenry -outright owners of land... on a par with farmers today, so indeed while they might claim poverty, their poverty was of a different order to the rest of us and they walked nowhere, and often owned several horses.
Okay a fair number of professional mounted archers will have risen from the ranks and gained mounts and equipment by fair means or foul, but nevertheless and whichever way you cut it, mounted archers were horse-owners and only a small step below the 'gentleman squire' who made up the bulk of the men at arms... the poorer of whom can be found in the Tudor era serving as mounted archers.
So while strictly-speaking not an 'equestrian class' (bearing in mind a fair number of the men at arms class weren't so noble - the elder two Pastons were lawyers and the first one's wife was a 'bondswoman' - a serf), neither were they uncertain which end of a horse was the front.
:)
Absolutely!! They were generally recruited not not from the serf in the field with his back breaking labour; rather they were recruited from the higher echelons of the equivalent of what we would now call working class, even lower middle class (though by making I'm on shakey ground).
Darrell.