Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => Old West => Topic started by: greatescapegames on March 18, 2015, 12:37:53 PM
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Available to pre-order http://www.greatescapegames.co.uk/dead-mans-hand/downunder
(http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x103/greatescapegames/DMH%20Down%20Under/DMH%20DU%20Cover%20500px%20wide_zpsdms7erz9.jpg)
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Nice cover, sport!
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:D
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Sneaky preview of DEAD MAN'S DOWN UNDER: http://www.greatescapegames.co.uk/media/wysiwyg/home-shortcuts/dead-mans-hand/dmh-down-under/DMH_Down_Under_sample_pages_small.pdf
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Looking good. :) I'm assuming you can use the campaign system from 'legend of Dead mans hand' along with this?
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Strewth! :o Looking forward to a Ned Kelly figure 8)
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Is the overall title intentional?
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Along with the pose of Mr Kelly?
Because I am outraged, outraged I tell youse.
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I believe I'll be picking up all three of the Down Under gangs from my FLGS. Nice work. Any plans to expand the Down Under range in the future?
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Oh yes, thats cracking. 8) 8) 8) 8) Just what my OW town needs. - Though I'm surprised the whole Kelly gang is outfitted to the hilt with armour. - I think those constables will be a smart addition, as they are rather generic enough to suit a few genres.
Cheers
Matt
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Looking good. :) I'm assuming you can use the campaign system from 'legend of Dead mans hand' along with this?
yup
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And hopefully also use some of the other gangs like Outlaws and Desperados?
I assume the game also comes with enough historical background to fill those of us unacquainted in? Or should I just rent Ned Kelly? Any must have reads or DVDs otherwise for the setting?
Will be preordering the whole shebang by the way; I love DMH!
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All the ned kelly movies are awful. From Jagger to Ledger they all did a crap job of it.
I thought Ledger was pretty good, the less said about Jagger the better lol
I'll check out the other two, never seen either, cheers.
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And there's a Wikipedia list:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Australian_Western_%28genre%29_films
It probably doesn't need to be stted, but I would avoid 'Lightning Jack' too. Never heard of it until today. 'The Tracker' is a little late period-wise but is a very good film.
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The film The Proposition is worth watching and fits the period perfectly.
Edit: just noticed that the new gang figures are 'inspired by' the film.
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I don't suppose anybody remembers the series "Whiplash", a weekly must see when I was about five 8)
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I'm definitely of that vintage. Whiplash, Rifleman and Combat! :)
I don't suppose anybody remembers the series "Whiplash", a weekly must see when I was about five 8)
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God's teeth.
The bloody Kelly Gang in full armour. What a joke.
SPOILER: Shoot at the legs. They fall over quick smart.
Where are the wideawake and cabbage palm hats? Defining headwear.
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/37/Ben_Hall_Bushranger.jpg)
Ben Hall wearing a widewake. The ribbon is essential.
Where are Ben Hall, Frank Gardiner, Captain Thunderbolt, Morgan, Black Caesar and Sam Poo the only known Chinese bushranger?
If you're going to do Oz bushranging, forget that self-important Victorian twat. Do the Eugowra stagecoach gold robbery.
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Where are Ben Hall, Frank Gardiner, Captain Thunderbolt, Morgan, Black Caesar and Sam Poo the only known Chinese bushranger?
If you're going to do Oz bushranging, forget that self-important Victorian twat. Do the Eugowra stagecoach gold robbery.
I've heard of Ben Hall, some Melbourne biker I used to hang about with was always singing about him after the 12 can of Fosters. All I remember is that he hates us one and all lol
Tell us more, Sam Poo sounds fascinating and Captain Thunderbolt is up there with The Sundance Kid as a top Moniker.
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Sam Poo. ::)
Wasn't there a Captain Midnite as well?
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Wool sole man!
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All too much for me: I pre-ordered the whole set! Will try to work in some genuine Australian feel if I can rather just using the huge western town that I already have. I'm hoping to use 75% of my current collection and then to add the rest to make it look somewhat authentic. Watched Ned Kelly last night and--aside from the color of the buildings and the vegetation--thought most of the Old West stuff would work ok. Tonight it will be The Proposition...
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Suggest you watch Mad Dan Morgan as well. Loopy Bushranger, no way was he a Victorian Robin Hood.
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Starkadder - the DMH blueprint demands that a character be realised on celluloid before his/her likeness can be reproduced in miniature.
If GEG remains true to this game-plan there's a good chance that further down the dirt track you'll have access to a 28mm version of an actor called Jack Martin, who will be playing the outlaw in the forthcoming two-hour feature 'Legend of Ben Hall'. The producers have promised that this will be the most historically accurate bushranger pic yet. They're even consulting with a specialist 'bushranger historian'.
If you're prepared to hold out for a truly historical take on the subject, I know of a certain well regarded figure manufacturer with a personal interest in it who has plans to release a colonial Australia range once he's finished with his current projects.
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Starkadder - the DMH blueprint demands that a character be realised on celluloid before his/her likeness can be reproduced in miniature.
Does this count, Leigh?
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0159850/ (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0159850/)
Starred Jon Finch. It played a little fast and loose but was rather good, at least in my memories.
To Ray Earle.
Sam Poo was a minor tragedy. Like thousands of Chinese, he came to Oz in the early 1860s. He couldn't make a go of it on the gold fields and took off from his campsite in February 1865. Just about the only physical description of him is an off-hand remark that he was "a cranky old Chinaman". This was in NSW near Mudgee and Coonabarabran.
Some time after he disappeared, he assaulted a woman and her daughter "with alarm and affront" and robbed them. A trooper called Frederick Ward (curiously also Captain Thunderbolt's real name) went out to hunt him down and bring him in.
This is where it gets murky. In the cheery racism of the time, it is recorded that he ambushed Ward, jumping from behind a tree and shouting "You - policeman, me shootee you!" And did. Ward died around ten days later (from memory). A larger posse went to hunt him down and took him in a brief struggle. He was hanged at Darlinghurst Gaol about eight months later.
It's a brief and sordid story but it created legal history as Ward made a deposition before he died. It was admitted into evidence even though he was dead - a first in Australian law. I've read the actual case.
Sam (we don't know his real name) didn't go into some awful Chinese parody speak. According to Ward, he asked Sam to surrender to which he replied "You're a policeman, I won't go with you. I'll have to shoot you!" It was a panic move.
It doesn't suit the narrative that he was a poor and frightened bloke a long way from home and utterly alone. Ward seems to have been quite concerned for him.
Not really a subject for a game, eh?
However, a great one to use is Captain Starlight from Rolf Boldrewood's Robbery under Arms. He's a composite of Frank Gardiner (who rode with Ben Hall and was the first man to be deported from Australia) and a bloke called Redford.
And if there has to be a film precedent Sam Neill played him in the film "Robbery under Arms"
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0089925/?ref_=fn_al_tt_1 (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0089925/?ref_=fn_al_tt_1)
And Sam wears a wideawake hat (almost).
Hope all of that helps.
By the way, Frank Gardiner was probably the first organised crime boss in the US. Certainly in California. He was the controlling intelligence behind the Wallaby Mob in San Francisco. Hah!
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If that manufacturer was Artizan Designs I'd be really excited :)
Starkadder - the DMH blueprint demands that a character be realised on celluloid before his/her likeness can be reproduced in miniature.
If GEG remains true to this game-plan there's a good chance that further down the dirt track you'll have access to a 28mm version of an actor called Jack Martin, who will be playing the outlaw in the forthcoming two-hour feature 'Legend of Ben Hall'. The producers have promised that this will be the most historically accurate bushranger pic yet. They're even consulting with a specialist 'bushranger historian'.
If you're prepared to hold out for a truly historical take on the subject, I know of a certain well regarded figure manufacturer with a personal interest in it who has plans to release a colonial Australia range once he's finished with his current projects.
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That's great stuff, thanks Starkadder. :)
It's surprising how much history is overshadowed by Kelly. Although, in his defence, sticking a bucket on your head is pretty special.
For all these bushrangers there must have been plenty of easy targets for them to help themselves.
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If that manufacturer was Artizan Designs I'd be really excited :)
I doubt it. I think Mike has his hands pretty much full with the NWF. Although I've been looking to use some of the Northstar Africa boers as Kelly hunters and I reckon you could push some of the less fantastical IHMN range into service. Some of the anarchists would make great bushrangers.
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That's great stuff, thanks Starkadder. :)
It's surprising how much history is overshadowed by Kelly. Although, in his defence, sticking a bucket on your head is pretty special.
For all these bushrangers there must have been plenty of easy targets for them to help themselves.
He's certainly the most spectacular, Ray.
Ben Hall generally gets the Robin Hood title although he wasn't a really nice bloke. He had form from an early age.
Easy targets, indeed. Thee is much play about the amount of help they would get from the local populace. My grandfather told my father about how he as a boy had to take the best thoroughbreds out into pre-arranged points and leave them tethered for the bushrangers to take them. (Yes I am THAT old. We marry late in my family.) It was a protection racket. Their barns, stables and livestock would be destroyed if they didn't. It was no use complaining to the coppers. Half of them were being bribed or were related to the 'rangers.
It's an interesting period.
The scary ones are the early ones in Tasmania. Cannibals and worse.
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Sorry Axabrax: not AD, but someone equally respected with a product of similar quality.
Yes, I know about the Ben Hall TV series, Starkadder, but as far as inspiration for DMHDU goes it seems that GEG is only interested in big screen movies of recent provenance. If they're even aware of it, the 70s TV series is probably too old and too inaccessible for them - although it was what first sparked the interest of that figure manufacturer I've alluded to.
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not AD, but someone equally respected with a product of similar quality.
Can't think who that would be off the top of my head, but look forward to adding some to the collection if they match in style.
It's an interesting period.
The scary ones are the early ones in Tasmania. Cannibals and worse.
I'd heard some of the stories about Tasmania. :o
I get the feeling that the attitudes haven't changed that much in the area. When I was in Mudgee we visited a friend of the family who regaled us with tales of dodging the cops when they were younger and generally getting in trouble. As he sat in his armchair making hunting knifes..
It was around the time the law came banning the ownership of semi-auto rifles. I was told that a load of them had got around the ban by sticking all their guns in a shed somewhere in the outback. I believe it was quite the arsenal.
Do you have any recommendations for books about the bushrangers?
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Steve S and Mark Sims would be a natural choice and a similar style as they are all ex Foundry. High on my list would also be Hicksie, but we shall see. I don't see why a lot of the current Old West figures wouldn't work, at least the ones that don't have cowboy hats.
Here's also hoping that 4Ground decides to do an appropriate building or two.
I watched The Proposition last night. Far, far superior to Ned Kelly, which feels like a dollop of pablum by way of comparison. Almost watched Quiggley after, but the preview looked really dated and lame. :?
Yes, good reads on the rangers would be welcome. I couldn't find much on Amazon that wasn't from the 19 century.
Can't think who that would be off the top of my head, but look forward to adding some to the collection if they match in style.
I'd heard some of the stories about Tasmania. :o
I get the feeling that the attitudes haven't changed that much in the area. When I was in Mudgee we visited a friend of the family who regaled us with tales of dodging the cops when they were younger and generally getting in trouble. As he sat in his armchair making hunting knifes..
It was around the time the law came banning the ownership of semi-auto rifles. I was told that a load of them had got around the ban by sticking all their guns in a shed somewhere in the outback. I believe it was quite the arsenal.
Do you have any recommendations for books about the bushrangers?
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It would be great to see another Kelly Gang set without the armor suits.
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Yeah I'm not sure how well they will play in the armor. Not having to worry about insta-kill is nice, but they are slow and can't duck back. I think the bank robbery scenario will be particularly tough for them due to low mobility. They'll be fun to test play, however.
I could actually see a house rule where you can have some of the gang armored and some not. This way you can field a few tanks to screen your gang and absorb fire, but still have some mobility. I think only being able to use pistols is a big disadvantage too. Honestly in a competitive campaign I probably wouldn't pick the Kelly Gang based on a quick read of their stats.
It would be great to see another Kelly Gang set without the armor suits.
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Do you have any recommendations for books about the bushrangers?
My first suggestion is a negative. Treat anything by Frank Clune with great suspicion. According to rumour, Clune had an old drunkard who ghost-wrote a lot of stuff for him. He used to make a lot of stuff up. Having said that, they are great reads and cover people like Hall in great detail.
Charles White's 2 volume History of Australian Bushranging gives a pretty good account. It's old-school writing but very detailed.
Robbery under Arms is a great read but again is "old-fashioned".
Bill Wannan (sometimes W. Fearn-Wannan) produced a lot of stuff. His most fun book is Australian Folklore: A Dictionary of Lore, Legends and Popular Illusions.
A lost classic is Cyril Pearl's Wild Men of Sydney. Not precisely about bushranging but it has great flavour.
If you want real background to early Sydney, I can recommend Grace Karsken's The Colony. It is one of the best accounts I have ever read. Social history at its finest.
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The White books are still probably the best, most comprehensive starting point.
Wannan also did a less detailed general history: 'Tell 'Em I Died Game'.
There are several large format illustrated histories around; George E. Boxall's 'History of the Australian Bushrangers' has been reprinted numerous times since it was first published in the late 19th century, and is still worth reading because it covers events not discussed in other books.
Keep in mind that in all cases you'll only be reading about the best known, best recorded cases. There were perhaps 2000 or so bushrangers active over the entire colonial period, but the stories of most of them are either lost to history or remain untouched by historians and writers. Just to give one example, a couple of years ago a shiny new history of the NSW Police Force was published, which includes a brief account of a shootout between mounted police and a couple of colourful desperadoes (one going by the epithet 'Angel') in the west of the colony in the mid 1880s - when according to most general histories of bushranging Ned was the last real outlaw. One of those troopers was awarded for bravery and later went on to become Police Commissioner.
While I'm on the subject of police, I recommend two books by John O'Sullivan: 'Mounted Police of Victoria and Tasmania', and 'Mounted Police in NSW'.
Also by O'Sullivan is 'The Bloodiest Bushrangers', which is the story of the Clarke Brothers gang - oddly little known outside bushranger enthusiast circles. In an eerie precursor to the Kelly story, they ambushed and killed four special constables who were hunting them. And in one of those strange twists of history, they made their final stand in a shootout with police from the protection of a fortified hut built in the 1840s that had originally been loopholed for defence against Aboriginal attacks.
And while I'm on bushranging/frontier conflict overlap, 'Robbery Under Arms' is of course a novel, whose author, Rolfe Boldrewood (real name Tom Browne), participated in the Eumeralla War in south west Victoria in the 1840s. In his memoirs he recounts what he considered an amusing incident, when a Native Mounted Police section rode up to his homestead and the Aboriginal NCO leading them saluted and said to him 'I hear the blacks been very bad about here.'
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Brilliant, thanks for the suggestions.
I've managed to pick up the second volume of Whites books for a fair price so shall start with that. From what I've seen its similar in style with most of the period histories of the Old West I have so I'm pretty sure I'll be alright with the style of writing. :)
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Did the Aboriginie's ever get any of their own back, was their an Australian little big horne or some such?
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Bugsda - to answer your question in the simplest terms: no.
The highly decentralised social structure of Aboriginal society meant that it didn't have time to absorb knowledge about the invaders' new technologies on a large scale, such as the horse and - with a couple of localised exceptions - guns, before the advancing frontier of settlement reached a 'tribe's' territory. There was also the crucial matter of food resources, which would be quickly exhausted by large concentrations of people. The number of warriors that could be fielded was consequently limited, and never exceeded five or six hundred - and even that was generally only possible through an alliance of clans. This dynamic also meant that the invaders could usually deal with resistance locally without the need for large military campaigns, relying instead on the the settlers themselves with the support of para-military mounted police forces - a situation which played into the hands of authorities who, for the most part, preferred to assign indigenous resistance to the law and order basket. This isn't to say that the army wasn't involved, but outside Tasmania it was on a small scale, and virtually ceased after the 1840s. For all these reasons there was no possibility of anything on the scale of Little Big Horn occurring.
Most of the fights on the frontier were skirmishes involving a handful of settlers, police, or soldiers against scores or hundreds of warriors. Aboriginal warriors fought on foot and mostly relied on traditional weapons: spears (in many regions assisted by spear throwers, or woomeras), clubs, and boomerangs - so, in some respects, the situation was not unlike that in southern Africa: settlers who were usually mounted (other than miners and those defending buildings), heavily outnumbered by tribesmen on foot. Additionally, Aboriginal weapons had low lethality; they were made of wood, and spearheads were of bone, flint, or fire-hardened wood (increasingly supplemented by imported glass, metal, and ceramics), so it was hard to knock a settler out of a fight unless he received multiple wounds. Due to the numerical odds this was always possible, but it was difficult for warriors on foot to catch mounted settlers in a position in which they'd be exposed to sufficient missiles. None-the-less, it did happen, and - getting back to your original question - there were some instances of what you might call mini-Little Big Horns; mostly involving Native Mounted Police patrols, because as a permanent force embodied specifically for service on the frontier they were continuously engaged.
The most effective way that Aborigines 'got their own back' though was by forcing settlers out through a combination of fear, tension, casualties, property destruction, driving off their flocks and herds, inflated wages needed to attract workers (effectively 'danger money'), additional costs due to having to hire extra staff purely for security duties, and ultimately... bankruptcy; a fate that befell many property 'owners' across the continent, individually and collectively.
I hope this answers your question.
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Wasn't this post about Dead Man's Hand at one point? Lol! ;)
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Two new rogues: Jonathan Pain and Roy Magnum. Released April 25th, available for pre-order now:
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xaf1/v/t1.0-9/11100078_616984148436891_4970788801451966528_n.jpg?oh=ba6e3ed0fe346bec51a0f53d07e5c7e1&oe=5573B2EB&__gda__=1438376794_6003da553faf1d9d53d4c9d21fa56ba6)
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpf1/v/t1.0-9/10421246_616984171770222_4333685916127805417_n.jpg?oh=f1ca6490656ab820a9150788273ff089&oe=5576C18B&__gda__=1437870561_a1761b07d390b03e8cbc0e023573955b)
www.greatescapegames.co.uk
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Great stuff. :D
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Argh! I already ordered! Now I have to place another order. I hope you guys will at least combine shipping considering its a pre-order?
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I hope this answers your question.
Yep, brilliantly, cheers 8)
Wasn't this post about Dead Man's Hand at one point? Lol! ;)
Yeah, DMH Down Under, if you know sod all about it you gotta' have some background. ;)
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Fair enough, Bugsda. Look forward to seeing your paint jobs on these figures! :D
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Argh! I already ordered! Now I have to place another order. I hope you guys will at least combine shipping considering its a pre-order?
If you add these guys on, we'll refund extra postage when it is ready for despatch.
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Will these two extra figures be available in an offer like the £60 book and three existing sets or should I order the £60 offer plus the two figures?
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Bugsda - if you want to follow up your enquiry here are two online resources:
1. For the most cogent, in-depth military-historical analysis of frontier conflict (specific to south-east Queensland, but with wider application) yet published see 'A Different Mode of War', by Raymond Kerkhove.
2. For a first-hand account of a frontier skirmish see the tenth page of 'The Recollections of Thomas Davis'. Davis was the father of Steele Rudd, author of Australian literary classic 'On Our Selection', which was the progenitor of radio and TV comedy-drama 'Dad and Dave'.
On the subject of the size of Aboriginal tribal forces, as I said, 600 was a maximum figure, and such numbers were only possible where there was abundant food - such as on a major river. The explorer Charles Sturt had a close call during his explorations of the River Murray in 1830, when his party, confined to a boat, prepared to defend itself from a mass of angry warriors daubed with white, 'skeletal' warpaint that Sturt estimated to number about 600. Conflict was only averted at the last moment when an elder from a tribe they'd previously had a peaceful encounter with appeared and intervened to deter the would-be attackers. There's a famous painting of this encounter that shows Sturt's men with muskets loaded and poised ready to fire if need be.
In the early 1840s conflict did occur between the river tribes and overlanders bringing cattle and sheep from NSW to SA in the vicinity of a branch of the Murray called the Rufus River. Here are a couple of excerpts from the reports of the leaders of overlanding parties.
From former South Australian Commissioner of Police Henry Inman, April 1841: 'The natives, in number about 300 or 400, commenced the attack by issuing boldly from the scrub, and waddies flew in all directions'.
Concerning another fight with an expedition lead by Charles Langhorne*:
The overseer, Miller, who suffered seven spear wounds during the fight said: "We were surrounded by a party of about 500 natives, and, when reloading the drays, the blacks rushed towards us and commenced throwing waddies.'
Langhorne himself said: ' I was not present at the time of the attack. But from information I have received on my joining the party, I consider the number of blacks was from 500 to 600.'
Interestingly, further on in his report Langhorne says: '... the overland route is now completely closed and this fierce tribe will no doubt become more daring in consequence of having now defeated three successive parties.'
*Four members of this party were killed.
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Bugsda - if you want to follow up your enquiry here are two online resources:
I will, cheers :)
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Bugsda - if you want to follow up your enquiry here are two online resources:
1. For the most cogent, in-depth military-historical analysis of frontier conflict (specific to south-east Queensland, but with wider application) yet published see 'A Different Mode of War', by Raymond Kerkhove.
2. For a first-hand account of a frontier skirmish see the tenth page of 'The Recollections of Thomas Davis'. Davis was the father of Steele Rudd, author of Australian literary classic 'On Our Selection', which was the progenitor of radio and TV comedy-drama 'Dad and Dave'.
On the subject of the size of Aboriginal tribal forces, as I said, 600 was a maximum figure, and such numbers were only possible where there was abundant food - such as on a major river. The explorer Charles Sturt had a close call during his explorations of the River Murray in 1830, when his party, confined to a boat, prepared to defend itself from a mass of angry warriors daubed with white, 'skeletal' warpaint that Sturt estimated to number about 600. Conflict was only averted at the last moment when an elder from a tribe they'd previously had a peaceful encounter with appeared and intervened to deter the would-be attackers. There's a famous painting of this encounter that shows Sturt's men with muskets loaded and poised ready to fire if need be.
In the early 1840s conflict did occur between the river tribes and overlanders bringing cattle and sheep from NSW to SA in the vicinity of a branch of the Murray called the Rufus River. Here are a couple of excerpts from the reports of the leaders of overlanding parties.
From former South Australian Commissioner of Police Henry Inman, April 1841: 'The natives, in number about 300 or 400, commenced the attack by issuing boldly from the scrub, and waddies flew in all directions'.
Concerning another fight with an expedition lead by Charles Langhorne*:
The overseer, Miller, who suffered seven spear wounds during the fight said: "We were surrounded by a party of about 500 natives, and, when reloading the drays, the blacks rushed towards us and commenced throwing waddies.'
Langhorne himself said: ' I was not present at the time of the attack. But from information I have received on my joining the party, I consider the number of blacks was from 500 to 600.'
Interestingly, further on in his report Langhorne says: '... the overland route is now completely closed and this fierce tribe will no doubt become more daring in consequence of having now defeated three successive parties.'
*Four members of this party were killed.
With regards to those numbers, the one thing I noted is that the sources are people with, well, shall we say an interest in inflating them. And even if the numbers are close "A party of 500 natives" may not have been a party of 500 warriors.
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I can assure you that in all these encounters during the Rufus River conflict only warriors were present, Fram. The whites were droving large mobs of sheep and herds of cattle (which, BTW, were deliberately scattered and destroyed by the Aborigines), and their sole objective was to get them to their destination as quickly as possible; they had neither the time nor the resources to search for and preemptively attack native camps - so the initiative was entirely with the Aborigines. The tribesmen massed directly across the stock route specifically to block their passage. Their families would have been well away from the scene of the fighting. Obviously these are just extracts, and if you read them in the context of the full first-hand reports and accounts you'll see that this is so. Later reports from government officials with no motive for inflating numbers, who participated in the punitive expeditions that ensued from these fights, record similar numbers for the tribal forces.
This is only one example of numbers of this order; there are other reports and accounts of equally large Aboriginal forces, mostly from Queensland, where historical demographers have concluded that indigenous population densities were higher than anywhere else on the continent - particularly in the well watered tropical and sub-tropical eastern portion of the colony
I presume your second comment is based on a reading of Davis' account. That was an entirely different situation, in which the settlers and NMP, unburdened by any other considerations and driven by a sense of urgency, went in search of the native 'mob' specifically to disperse it before the warriors could launch their attack on the station (i.e. it WAS an attempt at a preemptive strike) and caught them still encamped with their families. Fortunately for the Aborigines they were numerous and determined enough to drive the settlers away from the camp, and in the end, from the field. Davis doesn't say whether they subsequently went through with the attack on the station as they'd - possibly - originally planned. Perhaps the fight with his party disrupted their plans and exhausted them sufficiently to deter them. If so, I guess you'd have to call it a tactical defeat, but a strategic victory, for the colonials.
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Apparently we are no longer talking about bushranging, conflicts with the law, nor about Dead Man's Hand. Considering that all the other DMH threads have been locked and this is the "official" DMH thread, I wonder if it would be better to start a new thread on the frontier wars? Just a thought.
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In case anyone is wondering, the first rogue is not a retirement home version of Marstin from Quigley but more reminiscent of John Hurt's drunken gentleman bounty hunter from the Proposition. Didn't get it myself until I read the blurb on the Great Escape site. The pistol is the giveaway ;)
Two new rogues: Jonathan Pain and Roy Magnum. Released April 25th, available for pre-order now:
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xaf1/v/t1.0-9/11100078_616984148436891_4970788801451966528_n.jpg?oh=ba6e3ed0fe346bec51a0f53d07e5c7e1&oe=5573B2EB&__gda__=1438376794_6003da553faf1d9d53d4c9d21fa56ba6)
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpf1/v/t1.0-9/10421246_616984171770222_4333685916127805417_n.jpg?oh=f1ca6490656ab820a9150788273ff089&oe=5576C18B&__gda__=1437870561_a1761b07d390b03e8cbc0e023573955b)
www.greatescapegames.co.uk
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I wonder if it would be better to start a new thread on the frontier wars? Just a thought.
Before this one gets locked. Just like the last one about the Australian frontier wars... ::)
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Before this one gets locked. Just like the last one about the Australian frontier wars... ::)
Pretty much, i've never got it really, pretty much every single conflict has bad behavior on both sides, any moral objections to playing/wargaming this would really be applicable to every single period.
I think as a non-Australian I just don't get it, what makes an aborigine ''worth more'' historically than any other indigenous peoples? all were mistreated but from what i've seen even mention the ''A'' word and it's colt navys at dawn.
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what makes an aborigine ''worth more'' historically than any other indigenous peoples?
That's it. No one people group is worth more than another. We are all valuable.
The problem is when invading people's try to wipe out rather populations rather than live along side the indigenous group. As a perspective, it just seems worse when the invaders have technically superior weaponry, and use that to kill far greater numbers.
We just need to be sensitive to past hurts and injustices, no matter what period we are playing. Give value to the people our miniatures represent, the problem is in gamining we put our morals aside and it's normally shoot first and kill everything.
Include an aboriginal tracker in a game chasing sheep rustlers, that's a great way to do it (like what DMH has done) include Roman and Celtic battles, German and French WWII battles.
Perhaps we should avoid:
Baby seal clubbing
genocide
holocaust and ghetto liquidation
Why would those be fun to play anyway?
Why would you want to play the first encounters between native Americans and settlers? Target practice is hardly a game. What makes the OW more interesting is when the native Americans later use guerilla tactics, and use the settlers weapons and fight toe to toe.
As an Australian I'm glad people want to inquire about our past and game the setting. I'm just concerned when the original population (who we have only just appologised to for our actions) is used as an enemy - because it will be a game of sticks verse guns.
People are valuable in and of themselves.
Matt.
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Apparently we are no longer talking about bushranging, conflicts with the law, nor about Dead Man's Hand. Considering that all the other DMH threads have been locked and this is the "official" DMH thread, I wonder if it would be better to start a new thread on the frontier wars? Just a thought.
Indeed, please keep on track, folks. This is the DMH thread for discussing the new releases. If you would like to discuss the political dimensions of frontier wars or any cruelties caused during that conflict, please do that on an appropriate site in the net. There are many. Otherwise this thread will be locked.
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While I get the spirit behind the point no ghetto liquidation, partisans and partisan versus anti-partisan battles did play an important part in ww2 for instance, i'd point out as well the partisans themselves were no saints.
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the partisans themselves were no saints.
I can agree with that statement.
Indeed, please keep on track, folks. This is the DMH thread for discussing the new releases. ... Otherwise this thread will be locked.
Thanks for the warning, it's appreciated admiral.
So DMH, What new rules are rolled out with this release? Anything interesting? Cause the minis are. :)
Cheers
Matt.
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Hi,
I have to say that I think the Dead Man‘s Hand Down Under figures and sourcebook to be one of the best ideas to come along in a long time. I'm desperately trying to resist not buying the book, the rules, and all of the figure sets but I'm sure 'll fail! I'd be very interested in knowing more about the rules and the Down Under book too.
I also like the way that Great Escape Games went for a movie based look for their figure sets. The Proposition is a very good film with a strong and distinctive look. It doesn't really matter that that look is not too historically accurate as I think most non-australians have no idea what real bush rangers or colonial police would look like and I've only found a few images on the web. Referencing a film makes the whole thing more accessible.
However, I have thought about how a Down Under project could be expanded. I found an image from the cover of the Sam Neil version of Robbery Under Arms showing two police troopers. If their uniforms are accurate then maybe figures could be converted from something like Natal Mounted Police or British South Africa Police with ACW kepi head swaps?
I also liked the picture earlier on this thread of Ben Hall in his straw wideawake. Also, there are some good images on the web of Sam Neil as Captain Starlight wearing one. I think the Foundry figure of Burton in the Darkest Africa explorer's pack might be a good match for this look. Another idea I've had is to use Perry ACW rioters with guns with straw hat head swaps using heads in the Redoubt ACW range.
For more armed civilians I might use some from the Mutineer miniatures Lucknow defenders sets.
All in all I'm finding the whole Down Under thing to be really useful and very stimulating so sorry for the long post.
All the best,
George.
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I'm thinking there might also be some good stuff in Brigade Games' Victorian range. It seems like basically the hat is the key-- you want Cowboys in different hats! :). Someone else also pointed out the Brick Lane Commune figs from IHMN.
In terms of rules, all we've seen is the Kelly Gang write up in the previews and the bushranger's special cards. As I've said in an earlier, buried, email, I think their lack of mobility due to the armor is a real hindrance in certain scenarios like the bank robbery. I'd like to see an option to only armor some of them, although that might screw up the game balance.
I'm curious to see how they write up not Quigley and John Hurt as I already ordered those figures too :D
I've also been thinking about the possibility of coming up with some alternate tin corrugated roofs for my current Dead Mans hand buildings to swap out depending on the continent.
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Indeed, please keep on track, folks. This is the DMH thread for discussing the new releases. If you would like to discuss the political dimensions of frontier wars or any cruelties caused during that conflict, please do that on an appropriate site in the net. There are many. Otherwise this thread will be locked.
Too true, I love the police gang the most, the Ned Kelly gang looks great if a little robotic. Getting on what bong-67 said, any other ranges suitable for mixing with?
My one criticism of DMH is that they don't make enough! i'd love to see some supplement packs.
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Good call bong-67 I've been trying to think of an excuse for buying the Lucknow defenders, now I have one. :D
I've been considering this same issue and I've come up with the following to use along with the DMH sets. For bushrangers I think there are figures usable from the IHMN Brick lane commune and IHMN Lord Currs company. There are various figures from Brigade games Gangs of New York range too.
For the Police, there'll need to be a bit of conversion work done for basic mounted troopers which I intend to use selected Artizan designs buffalo soldiers with the boots resculpted and probably the odd headswap. For other police (inspired by a photo of the police surrounding the Kelly gang) I'm going to use the special branch figures from the IHMN Scotland Yard company.
For Kelly hunters I'm looking to use some of the Northstar Boers from their Africa! range.
I think that the Boothill miniatures spare heads might be rife for some conversions too.
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Hi Ray,
I've also been considering ways to convert more troopers. I already mentioned using Zulu War Natal mounted police. Another idea might be to use 1st Corps Cape Mounted Rifles as they have trousers rather than boots and forage caps which could maybe be modified a bit. Or perhaps Perry dismounted Confederate cavalry could do if the swords were removed and tunic skirts added with green stuff.
I've also found a figure in the small Crusader old West range in pack CCW001, Mad Scot, who is reminiscent of one of the characters in Quigley Down Under (well at least he has a Balmoral bonnet).
Putting temporary corrugated iron roofs on fisting old West buildings might do to give them enough of an Australian look without having to make and store new buildings and would be similar to the approach the Perries did for their Kimberley game.
All the best,
George.
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Hi,
Thinking about ideas for DMH Down Under I thought I vaguely remembered an old Australian police series from the 70s called Bony which was about an aboriginie detective. A bit of googling revealed that I was right and the series does exist, although the main character is half aborigine and half white and maybe controversially he was played by a white actor in make-up (although I have no problem with that).
There is an episode available on you tube which is maybe interesting for DH Down Under. Its called the Kelly Gang and features modern robbers dressed in Kelly Gang armour holding up a bus!
It shows that the Kelly Gang figures could have many more uses than you might think as they could fit a VSF, Pulp, or 7TV setting.
All the best,
George.
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Bony was based on the Arthur Upfield novels and had the misfortune to appear at the same time as a steep rise in indigenous awareness and action. People were hypersensitive to to anything snowball (black on the outside, white on the inside)
This is a pity because Upfield lived worked and really liked indigenous culture. He was pretty respectful. He wrote around thirty Bony books. They are contemporary (50's and 60s) but could be reworked for scenarios.
I am confused by the DMH reference to Kelly's armour.
Am I to assume they are supposed to wander about the countryside in that rubbish? It was used once (28 June 1880 at Glenrowan). It was almost impossible to walk around in as it was so heavy (made from old farming ploughs and weighing around 100 lbs [45 kgs]), gave very little visibility and was stifling.
Most of the gang's career was free, easy and unarmoured. Two of the gang actually wore police uniforms at the Jerilderie incident. From memory, Dan spent more time dressed in a woman's skirt at the Glenrowan siege than ever he did in armour. Now, THAT would be amusing.
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the olden days a rather amusing redubbing of an old tv show.
The real Rush would be a great source of ideas, Scurv, if you could get it. Cracking theme as well.
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The old ABC show Rush, starring John Waters who has gone on to greater things, was a great show, set among rebellious gold miners. Just wish it was available on DVD.
The real Rush would be a great source of ideas, Scurv, if you could get it. Cracking theme as well.
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The main issues with the First Corps Cape Mounted Rifles figures, bong, are that their costume and equipment don't really match anything in any movie: waist-length jackets and double-barrelled carbines.
However, this does make them a very good conversion starting point for northern Division (NSW, and later QLD) NMP in the transition period (late 1860s to early 1870s) from the old NSW police to new QLD police uniform and DB carbine to Snider carbine, when some sections had received the new uniform but not the new weapon.
BTW, my attitude to DMH has been misrepresented by a certain poster to these boards, so I think it would be remiss of me not to set the record straight. Not having played it, obviously I can only go by online reports and magazine reviews, all of which indicate that it's a very good and enjoyable game; it just happens that personally I have no interest in playing games based exclusively, and very faithfully, on western movie conventions. I prefer something in the range Hollywood-light to fully historical. My issue with the game is that I think its designers are over-extending it by trying to incorporate movies that don't necessarily conform to the western blueprint.
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Have you any interest in the game at all? Have you looked at any of the miniatures or the news posts or is this thread just an opportunity for you to discuss various Australian topics and to throw in an occasional criticism and to pontificate? You don't seem to know anything about the game or what its trying to do at all, which frankly doesn't make you look terribly informed regardless of how much you know about frontier Australia ::)
Bony was based on the Arthur Upfield novels and had the misfortune to appear at the same time as a steep rise in indigenous awareness and action. People were hypersensitive to to anything snowball (black on the outside, white on the inside)
This is a pity because Upfield lived worked and really liked indigenous culture. He was pretty respectful. He wrote around thirty Bony books. They are contemporary (50's and 60s) but could be reworked for scenarios.
I am confused by the DMH reference to Kelly's armour.
Am I to assume they are supposed to wander about the countryside in that rubbish? It was used once (28 June 1880 at Glenrowan). It was almost impossible to walk around in as it was so heavy (made from old farming ploughs and weighing around 100 lbs [45 kgs]), gave very little visibility and was stifling.
Most of the gang's career was free, easy and unarmoured. Two of the gang actually wore police uniforms at the Jerilderie incident. From memory, Dan spent more time dressed in a woman's skirt at the Glenrowan siege than ever he did in armour. Now, THAT would be amusing.
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Can you read?
To reiterate the contents of the preceding post for your benefit:
1. No, I have absolutely no interest in playing this game. Perhaps the conditions of this site require that one has played, plays or has an intention to play a particular game before one is permitted to comment on it, but if so, I must have missed them.
2. Yes, I have seen the photos of the DMH figures; they're quite hard to miss if you've been viewing this thread. I've commented elsewhere on their excellent quality and accurate representation of their celluloid subjects.
3. Obviously I've read the entire thread; your point is?
4. If you'd read the posts in this thread with any degree of attentiveness you'd know that all of the points I've made have either been in response to questions, or have flowed naturally from preceding points.
5. Having read reviews of DMH that describe its structure I know that games are closely modeled on cinematic westerns to the point of being broken up into scenes. The fact that all the DMHDU figures represent actors should tell you something. Stuart from GEG is quite open about having the design goal of providing players with a highly cinematic game experience.
6. The fact that you entirely failed to absorb the content and intent of my preceding post before leaping to the attack makes you look somewhat foolish, and I have to wonder about the psychology behind someone suddenly become so rabidly and ridiculously defensive and personal about a game of toy soldiers.
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I'm sorry Lee, who are you replying to?
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Holster them pistols chaps.
Here, have a laugh instead.
(http://c1.thejournal.ie/media/2014/01/184779-468x500.jpg)
lol, the cow knows. lol
Starkadder and Scurv, that Olden Days show was a giggle. :)
I am confused by the DMH reference to Kelly's armour.
...
Am I to assume they are supposed to wander about the countryside in that rubbish? It was used once (28 June 1880 at Glenrowan). It was almost impossible to walk around in as it was so heavy (made from old farming ploughs and weighing around 100 lbs [45 kgs]), gave very little visibility and was stifling.
I was also quite surprised this release has the whole gang in armour. To be honest, id probably just prefer to buy one "ned kelly" figure, and use generic cowboys for the rest of the gang. The DMH Kelly Gang are modeled quite nicely though, I was considering doing some GS conversions, but these guys are better than anything I could do at this stage.
Alas it's packaged in one box. :/
We could always buy one box and split between a few members ;)
Cheers
Matt
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Hi,
With regard to the Kelly gang figures, I don't think they're actually meant to represent the real Kelly gang if only Ned wore the armour and then only once. what they are is an attempt by Great Escape games to offer a set of figures which all look distinctive and from a certain point of view, cool. From my point of view they are the least useful figures in the Down Under release for using in actual bush ranger games but as I mentioned previously they could do for VSF or Pulp gaming which lends them a certain versatility. At last year's Falkirk wargames show (Carronade) Dave Thomas was doing three for two deals on Dead Man's Hand boxed sets so if the same deal is on offer this year and the Down Under sets are in it I'll get all three sets.
Thanks to Leigh for his information about the suitability of the 1st Corps Cape Mounted Rifles for police conversions. I think I might have to look at something else. I'm actually hoping that when I see the Down Under book all of the scenarios can be done with the figures in the set but if I need more I need to have options. One is to find compatible figures which would work with minor conversion, e.g. of headgear, and I now think that the Foundry Victorian police with guns could be the best basis for these. The other is to not buy the Dead Man's Hand police set but convert figures to suit from some other source e.g. Natal Mounted Police or Zulu War British mounted infantry. That option would let me build a force as big as I want and also give me the option to do mounted troopers to match those on foot.
From what I can gather from this thread and similar ones on TMP, the various Australian Police forces were more like paramilitaries so they had very well defined uniforms and equipment and dress regulations would be likely to be enforced in the field. Is this correct?
Also, I think I and many others could do with some information on police firearms and equipment. I'm guessing that firearms would follow contemporary British army practice e.g. Snider carbines in the 1860's and Martini-Henrys in the 1870's and whatever the current service revolver was. However, were other firearms like shotguns ever issued?
Whilst on the subject of guns, what did civilians and bush rangers use in the 1860s to 1870s? Were British firearms more common and were American guns like Winchester repeaters or Sharps carbines used in Australia?
Finally, does anyone have any reference for the headgear Australian police wore in the 1860s or 70s? I've heard it described as a forage cap with a forward sloping crown so it sounds a lot like a kepi to me. I'm thinking ACW forage caps might do but would they and if not what would be a better match?
All the best,
George.
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First of all, take your argument outside please gents before you all get an interesting discussion locked.
Some of us are trying to have a sensible thread about pushing little tin men around a table.
I'm with bong-67 though, have any of you a guide to Australian police of the 1860's-80's era? I've seen photos of mounted police in boots just under the knee, white trousers and a five button jacket, hence my thoughts on modifying some US cavalry figures, but would they wear the forage cap or the natty little helmet?
I think from the photos the forage cap is rounder than the US version, sort of like a pill box cap, just a squashed one.
Thanks,
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Looks like I had a bit of a mindslip earlier, and Axabrax's riposte was actually directed at Starkadder. Coming straight after my post I assumed... and somehow missed the quote from Starkadder's post. So, apologies to Axabrax; I thought the apparent attack was a bit odd coming out of nowhere like that, and that I must be having my first experience of 'fanboyism':).
Anyway, I'd happily pass my misdirected return volley onto Starkers, but he'd have to do a complete rewrite, so if they want to continue the stoush he might be better off starting from scratch.
Before I leave you to your DMHing gentlemen, allow me to once again recommend www.uniformotw.com for plates of police uniforms from the period of interest. Now, back to my own corner...
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Brilliant pic's Scurv. Thanks.
Very interesting to see the bandolier worn by some figures in that second photo. It means that quite a few of the Northstar Boers will be useful. Also there seems to generally be a lack of uniform on any of the white policemen.
Is the gentlemen at the back, fourth in from the left a cavalry trooper?
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Ray, the five uniformed Aborigines squatting in the front row are troopers of the Native Mounted Police from Queensland, and the man you identified is undoubtedly their commanding officer, in the khaki drill uniform introduced for officers of that force in the 1890s, which replaced the officer's version of the blue 'jumper' with blue/white trousers previously worn.
I can't give you any further details about them, but I can tell you that the Aboriginal men in the other photo are from the same force. They were a section of six men under the command of Sub-Inspector Stanhope O'Connor, brought in at the request of the Victorian government. You can read more about them on www.ironoutlaw.com.
Note that the hunt for the Governor brothers occurred in 1900 in long-settled areas. By that time civilian clothing worn in such areas was becoming internationally homogenised. Even bush clothing was no longer quite as distinctively Australian as it had once been.
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First of all, take your argument outside please gents before you all get an interesting discussion locked.
Some of us are trying to have a sensible thread about pushing little tin men around a table.
Indeed. This is a last warning to keep a friendly, non-offending tone here. If you need to discuss more controversely, please use pm.
Thanks.
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I think you will find the white fellows are mostly of the posse variety. Most of these guys they were after had quite substantial prices on their heads
Aha, pretty much the same as the 'Kelly hunters'? I remember seeing a photo with a few gents leaning/observing from behind a fallen tree in some of the pictures I'd seen from the Kelly hunt.
Interesting to note also in both cases half the members of each posse are indigenous and as well equipped and armed as the whites. Clearly the value of indigenous warriors who could live off the land, track and fight was highly regarded.
I had noticed that.
I can't give you any further details about them, but I can tell you that the Aboriginal men in the other photo are from the same force. They were a section of six men under the command of Sub-Inspector Stanhope O'Connor, brought in at the request of the Victorian government. You can read more about them on www.ironoutlaw.com.
Note that the hunt for the Governor brothers occurred in 1900 in long-settled areas. By that time civilian clothing worn in such areas was becoming internationally homogenised. Even bush clothing was no longer quite as distinctively Australian as it had once been.
Thanks Leigh, I'll give that site a look.
As for clothing dont forget during the goldrush you had people from everywhere there. A stetson hat would not have been so out of place considering many of the americans came to mine.
Not out of place in South Africa either. ;)
Thanks again for the information gents.
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Hi,
Thanks to Scurv and Leigh for their excellent information. The Jimmy Governor photo is very interesting because of the range of clothing it shows and a lot of the clothes in it look similar to clothes worn in South Africa around the same time period or in the American West. I guess that's because as Leigh says by then outdoor clothing is becoming much more homogenised in similar environments across the British Empire and in the rest of the world.
I also had a look at Scurv's movie reference "The Chant of Jimmy Blacksmith", a very interesting and quite harrowing film. If its costumes are accurate then it shows a good look at police hats at least from the 1900s. The best match for these could be the ones some of the figures are wearing in the Foundry Victorian police inspectors and sergeants packs.
What's interesting about all of the information which has been kindly provided about frontier Australia is the variety of fashions available. They change over time from the more distinctive look of the earlier period to the more homogenous look of the 1900s, some stuff like the cabbage palm hats being distinctive, other stuff more like that worn in other frontier areas like Southern Africa or the American West. So as well as using the official figures, I think other figures can be sourced or converted easily enough.
What I'm finding refreshing about the whole thing is the way some of my existing old west figures could be used, I can get some figures based on a well-known movie (for me always attractive for old west gaming) but there is also plenty of scope for creativity and a bit of challenge.
Thanks to everyone for their help so far. All I need to do now is save the cash to buy the figures and rules and shove aside my current projects for this nice new Down Under "oh shiny".
All the best,
George.
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As regards police armament bong, in NSW at least things were pretty dire in the early 1860s, with many troopers lucky to have a single-shot muzzle-loading pistol. There are a number of instances of their being outgunned by bushrangers because of this deficit. They often had to borrow weapons from civilians! The picture improved over time, with the general issue of Tranter revolvers and Callisher-Terry breech-loading carbines, the latter replaced by Martini-Henry carbines from the mid-1870s onwards.
Police in WA and the NT had Martini-Henrys or Winchesters from the 1880s.
Civilian clothing was usually worn by detectives, and also by uniformed troopers when involved in extended man-hunts in the bush; they didn't want to ruin their nice uniforms, after all.
The headgear worn in NSW was generally a kepi from the 1860s , and in Victoria a low shako with a peak at front and back. Police in NSW received the custodian helmet in the late 1870s. This was of black leather, worn with a white cover in summer, and not as 'full' in shape as the contemporary military pith helmet. It was also introduced in Victoria, probably around the same time.
The style of uniform was very similar throughout most of Australia, varying only in detail: i.e. the number of buttons on the jacket; the degree of rigidity, precise height, and presence or absence of a coloured band on the kepi. Jackets were short, reaching to about the groin, and worn without an external waist-belt, but, depending on armament, sometimes with a shoulder belt. Boots were mostly of the hussar half-boot style. Tight-fitting breeches were worn, the colour depending on the season (normally white in summer). In South Australia they had a stripe down the seam.
The exception was Queensland, where a waist-length 'jumper' was issued from the 1860s on. This is the garment you can see in the Kelly era photo, although that appears to be a close-fitting woolen version. The events leading up to the Glenrowan siege and shootout occurred during the winter. Many photos of NMP in QLD show a looser fitting jumper of apparently lighter material, which either replaced the style shown in the photo in summer, or all year round in the field. NMP also sometimes wore a white havelock over the kepi from the 1870s on.
Bushranger weapons varied enormously. Ned Kelly had a Tranter revolving rifle at Glenrowan - but they generally seem to have favoured revolvers and shotguns.
I hope this helps.
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P. S. Some of the men in civilian clothing in the second photo are probably special constables: civilians temporarily 'deputised' (to use an Americanism) for the duration of a police operation. All up there were about 2000(!) men under arms during the Governor brothers 'emergency'.
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Leigh, thanks for answering my questions with your very informative post.
I must say I'd never heard of the Calisher-Terry carbine but after looking it up it is a very interesting gun. I don't know how you'd represent it in model form though.
Thanks also for the excellent uniform descriptions, which are just what I need.
Scurv, thanks for posting more really interesting photos. I particularly like the one with the bikes.
All in all I'm really enjoying this thread and everything on it has been good reading.
All the best,
George.
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If you're prepared to wait for that dedicated historical colonial Australia range I've mentioned previously, you should see this weapon depicted in 28mm miniature form for the first time.
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Hi,
I'll definitely be buying all of the DMH Down Under sets as a start on my Australia project and then I think I'll wait until the new Bush ranger range Leigh mentions is released. It sounds like it will have very distinctive figures with guns like the Calisher Terry which would be hard to model and figures in the more distinctive earlier colonial costumes.
One of the most attractive things for me about the whole "old west down under idea" is that it is a bit original. Instead of people coming along and making yet another range of Napoleonic French or Roman legionnaries we have at least two firms willing to take a risk and do something different. That sort of thing should be supported as it enriches gaming and stimulates research and creativity.
All the best,
George.