Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => The Great War => Topic started by: H.M.Stanley on April 03, 2015, 10:46:38 AM
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Not to be outdone by friends Scrivs and t'other James & their German and French projects, i have decided to temporarily redeploy my RCW/BoB Russians to the Eastern Front.
I have bought the Lardies Mud & Blood supplement for an overview and am waiting on a copy of the WW1CoC rules.
From what i can gather so far, the Russians could be loosely based on the British composition [EDIT: having now seen the WW1/COC article i now think that the US list is a better representation] with, i think, the following alterations:
1. Slightly larger 11 man sectons incl an NCO;
2. No LMGs!;
3. Mobile HMGs (move and fire?);
4. Fewer and less able Command (no Adjutant unless with Assault/Shock troops);
5. Separate Bomber section;
6. Poor marksmanship;
7. Relatively low morale except for Assault/Shock
8. Rifle Grenadiers would be available;
9. Gas would be less effective than normal;
10. Doctrinal use of the Bayonet. Lift the Urrahh! rule from the Lardies Eastern Front supplement i.e Pinned units may remove their pinned markers and charge & ignore shock markers for movement but not in combat;
11. Assault/Shock troops are not armed differently to Regular troops. Both have better morale but only the Assault troops would be better trained;
12. Rolling bombardment on the attack. Not always well coordinated, risk of friendly fire
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I thing that that will do for now, thought ladies and gentlemen please?
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I think counting them as Green/Aggressive would do nicely to simulate poor morale, foolish bullets & wise bayonets.
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I think counting them as Green/Aggressive would do nicely to simulate poor morale, foolish bullets & wise bayonets.
Thanks Matt. That sounds on the money for most troops. I had meant to incl Aggressive and forgot.
There is an argument for making the Siberians, who fought well, Regular rather than Green and the Razvedchiki Elite.
Probably Command Dice 4 if Green or Regulars and 5 if Elite
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Makes sense to me. There's a "CoCulator" on the TFL forums for building your own lists, but I don't know if the calculations are the same for the WWI version. If we assume they are, maybe you could join in the next game. There were a couple of Russian divisions on the Western front too, and it might undercut Scrivs' massive numerical superiority lol
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Thanks Matt. That sounds on the money for most troops. I had meant to incl Aggressive and forgot.
There is an argument for making the Siberians, who fought well, Regular rather than Green and the Razvedchiki Elite.
Probably Command Dice 4 if Green or Regulars and 5 if Elite
Will you be using the Musketeer/Footlsore Ranges James?
Darrell.
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Hi Darrell. Mine are mostly Old Glory with some Brigade Games and Copplestone.
I'm ahead of the game for a change ;)
Best, James
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Hi Darrell. Mine are mostly Old Glory with some Brigade Games and Copplestone.
I'm ahead of the game for a change ;)
Best, James
I'm always behind lol
Actually, what am I laughing at? There is some truth in that statement!! o_o
Darrell.
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Makes sense to me. There's a "CoCulator" on the TFL forums for building your own lists, but I don't know if the calculations are the same for the WWI version. If we assume they are, maybe you could join in the next game. There were a couple of Russian divisions on the Western front too, and it might undercut Scrivs' massive numerical superiority lol
Undercut Scrivs' "massive numerical superiority"? I could swamp him with waves of Russian infantry :D
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You don't want to know what OI painted this past week then :)
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I've been running extremely generic forces so far in our CoC-powered Russian Civil War experiments, but your thoughts on providing more flavour for Russian forces in CoC match up and are better developed than mine, so I think I'll be doing some large-scale borrowing from them for my own Russian forces.
I hadn't heard of the "Urrah!" rule for close assaults/Shock/etc, that's a good one.
Still thinking of ways to provide some minor flavour differences between Reds & Whites, as well...
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Paul - even you can't paint that quickly. Ahh, now I know why you're running scared from a game this Thurs. Desperately painting HMGS and artillery are we? ;)
Fire lizard - I'll get back to you.
Best,
James
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Ok, my first rough draft of a Russian LW list, bearing in mind that I haven't a copy of the CoC/WW1 rules:
All troops, unless otherwise stated, are Green.All infantry are Aggressive.
Command Dice 4/Command Dice 5 if Razvedchiki are taken
Force Morale: Minus [X]?
Special Rules: "Urrahh" and Rolling Bombardment
Platoon HQ
Lieutenant and 3 Runners, Rifle armed.
Squad 1
Squad Leader and 10 Riflemen
Squad 2
Squad Leader and 10 Riflemen
Squad 3
Squad Leader and 10 Riflemen
List 1
[0 -1] 8 x Grenade Launchers (incl 2 x crew)
Officers's Whistle [effect TBC]
[0 - 1] Squad Leader and 10 Riflemen
Add 3 x Bombers to each Squad
List 2
[0 - 2] HMG Section, Corporal with 5 man crew
[0 -2] 1 x 7 Bombers
[0 - 2] Squad Leader, with 10 Shock Troops with Rifles (incl 3 men/women with Grenades) [effect of being Volunteers?]
Gas [effect to be confirmed]
Rolling Bombardment [effect to be confirmed]
[0 - 1] Platoon Sargent (only if Regular or Shock troops are present)
List 3
[0 - 4] Squad Leader and 10 Riflemen
[0 - 2] Off-table HMG teams
[0 - 2] Squad Leader, with 8 Assault/Siberian Riflemen (incl 3 men with Grenades) (Regulars)
List 4
[0 - 2] Officer Volunteers - Squad Leader and 8 Riflemen (incl 3 x Bombers) (Veterans) (may only be taken if Shock troops are present)
List 5
[0 -1] Razvedchiki - Sargent and 8 Riflemen (incl 3 x Bombers) (Veterans) [Scouts]
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I've been running extremely generic forces so far in our CoC-powered Russian Civil War experiments, but your thoughts on providing more flavour for Russian forces in CoC match up and are better developed than mine, so I think I'll be doing some large-scale borrowing from them for my own Russian forces.
I hadn't heard of the "Urrah!" rule for close assaults/Shock/etc, that's a good one.
Still thinking of ways to provide some minor flavour differences between Reds & Whites, as well...
Hi. I suggest some further large scale borrowing from Chris Peers' excellent articles in WI on the BoB Bolshevik and Whites :)
PM with your email address if you can't track them down and I'll send them to you.
Best, James
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Having now seen the 2014 Xmas Special, I'm going to adopt the US Green list for the Russians and carve out the LMGS ... more later
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Edited: revised list below
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I have tried to keep to the US list as closely as possible as that has the option to make the Platoon Green and has a similar number of troops.
However, the Russians have only the one Maxim in the platoon so i have tried to balance this with the Riflemen in the MMG section (do the US really have four Chauchats plus Riflemen?) and Platoon Force Rating
Support Lists again as per the US list save that the Adjutant moves to List 2 and remove the 1 Pounder and tanks
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(http://i58.tinypic.com/2ywfy49.jpg)
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http://i.imgur.com/k2nHis4h.jpg
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Two senior leaders and big sections mean this is going to be a fairly dangerous and resilient combat unit.
Maybe bump the platoon Sergeant down to a Junior Leader?
I think I have enough Whites painted to match this TO&E, I'll try it out next time we run Chain and see how it goes.
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Hi WL,
I take the point although it is correct for the Russions (like most Nations) to have a Platoon Sargeant. When Green, they will suffer regardless.
That said, it is always fun to make one force different from another. So, with that in mind, it could be an Option to remove the Platoon Sargeant when taking the Russians as Green and dropping the Platoon Force Rating to -6.
I'll sort the WI articles for you next week :)
Best
James
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RUSSIAN INFANTRY PLATOON
PLATOON FORCE RATING:
Regular: +2
Green: -3/-5
[*Option: remove the Platoon Sargeant when taking the Russians as Green and drop the Platoon Force Rating to -5,. This represens the Shock, Storm or Death Battalions, civilian volunteers who, in theory, had more access to additional MMGs etc]
Command Dice 5
National Characteristics:
a. Aggressive.
b. Urrahh! Doctrinal use of the bayonet. Pinned units may remove their pinned markers and charge & ignore their shock markers for movement but not combat.
c. Mobile Maxims (may move 1D6 and fire at half effect i.e. 5 dice)
PLATOON HQ
Lieutenant, Senior Leader with pistol
*Sargeant, Senior Leader with rifle
SECTION ONE
Corporal, Junior Leader with rifle
Five bombers
Six Riflemen
SECTION TWO
Corporal, Junior Leader with rifle
Three rifle grenade launchers with two crew each
Three Riflemen
SECTION THREE
Corporal, Junior Leader with rifle
Seventeen Riflemen
SECTION FOUR
Corporal, Junior Leader with rifle
Maxim MMG with 5 crew
Six Riflemen
Support Lists as per the US list save that the Adjutant moves to List 2 and remove the 1 Pounder and tanks
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Shouldn't the Russians have some access to Madsen Light Machine Guns?
Probably as an add on support item since supply was very spotty and never officially in the TO&E.
The Madsen Light Machine Gun on the Eastern and Western Front 1914-17
The Russians
Russia was the first country to buy the Danish Madsen light machine gun in any appreciable number. One thousand two hundred and fifty Madsen's were bought from Denmark Chambered to take Russian ammunition they were used to equip the cavalry and first saw action during the Russo-Japanese war of 1904. The experiment was a success but the high cost of purchasing the machine gun meant that the Russian army never formally adopted the Madsen. Early in the Great War when it became apparent that the army did not have enough machine guns the Madsen was pressed into use. It was issued to the infantry, cavalry, air force and river detachments. By then the guns were few in number and worn out. The Russians also tried to acquire other machine guns from their allies and America.
By 1915 the Russian Madsen's were gathered together and sent to the front. Some were sent beforehand to the Sestroretsk Arms Factory for repairs. The weapons robustness and ease of use made it a popular weapon in the hands of the Russian soldier. Russian made Madsen's may have been produced at the Kovrovsk Machine Gun Factory.
http://web.archive.org/web/20071214123015/http://mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/20th_century_warfare/id73.htm (http://web.archive.org/web/20071214123015/http://mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/20th_century_warfare/id73.htm)
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Photographs of Russian infantry re-enactors, with Madsen:
here (http://www.c20warfare.org/191421/weapons4.htm)
Robert
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Love the look of the Madsen, pity no one bothers to depict in any range of figures.
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@Stecal.
Hi. Thanks for that.
Access to Madsen LMGs - Probably, particularly in the early part of the war by the sound of it.
I'm not putting myself forward as an expert on the Russians, I just knocked up the list from what I'd read although RCW/BoB is more my thing.
It's an unofficial list so feel free to copy and amend on another thread. ;)
Personally, I'd have the LMG in an Early War list, remove the Bombers and Rifle Grenadiers and have 4 x rifle sections. You'd need to alter the Platoon Force Rating and Support Lists.
Cheers, James
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There are some WW2 Norwegian (here (http://www.gorgon-studios.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=107)) and ?Danish figures in 28mm but not any WW1 Russian or German figures that I know of. I have used standalone Madsen guns (can't remember the company that sells them) for converting German LMG gunners.
Robert
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In Russian army at the beginning of the war there were 680 machine guns "Madsen".
Since 1916, into the Russian army began to supply american machine guns "Lewis", and later - the French machine guns "Shosh".
But equipping machine guns the imperial army was insufficient. By the end of the war in the Russian Infantry Division was 72 machine gun, a German division - 324, in the UK - 648, in the French - 400 pcs.
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Thanks Cuprum.
Also, i have rebalanced the MMG section by taking out 4 x Riflemen. This now puts out the same firepower as the US Chauchats which the whole list is based on
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I think the Madsen was mostly used by the cavalry.
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Yes, these machine guns originally were purchased for the cavalry. But then they were retired of line units and transferred into service garrison of the fortress. Since the beginning of the war, these machine guns were transferred to the infantry units.
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RUSSIAN INFANTRY PLATOON
PLATOON FORCE RATING:
Regular: +2
Green: -3/-5
[*Option: remove the Platoon Sargeant when taking the Russians as Green and drop the Platoon Force Rating to -5,. This represens the Shock, Storm or Death Battalions, civilian volunteers who, in theory, had more access to additional MMGs etc]
Command Dice 5
National Characteristics:
a. Aggressive.
b. Urrahh! Doctrinal use of the bayonet. Pinned units may remove their pinned markers and charge & ignore their shock markers for movement but not combat.
c. Mobile Maxims (may move 1D6 and fire at half effect i.e. 5 dice)
PLATOON HQ
Lieutenant, Senior Leader with pistol
*Sargeant, Senior Leader with rifle
SECTION ONE
Corporal, Junior Leader with rifle
Five bombers
Six Riflemen
SECTION TWO
Corporal, Junior Leader with rifle
Three rifle grenade launchers with two crew each
Three Riflemen
SECTION THREE
Corporal, Junior Leader with rifle
Seventeen Riflemen
SECTION FOUR
Corporal, Junior Leader with rifle
Maxim MMG with 5 crew
Six Riflemen
Support Lists as per the US list save that the Adjutant moves to List 2 and remove the 1 Pounder and tanks
I'm going to try out this list unless anyone has any further observations. Cheers