Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => Medieval Adventures => Topic started by: gefreiter on June 11, 2015, 08:19:58 PM
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Hello,
A friend and i are going to do the WOR. On the internet there are a lot of nice pictures of painted armies/units of the period.
My question: what and how many banners/flags are there to be in the units, how does it works????
Thanks for any info;
Cheers,
Dirk
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Hi Dirk... there is not actually a definitive answer for all that, just some conventions that were followed somewhat loosely. I have used illustrations from Citadel Six's site, so apologies for the watermarks.
Banners
Each knight or other person entitled to bear heraldic arms would have a banner displaying those arms, the size and shape determined by his 'rank', which conformed to those in the rest of Europe. These served no function other than to mark his presence on the battlefield.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-71PnBszh-VA/VXqRjfrohMI/AAAAAAAAU5g/ZRbbhs3jS-g/w239-h241-no/Ormond%2BBanner.png)
Earl of Ormond's Banner.
'Retinue' Standards
Individuals who were hereditary knights (not knights for 'life'), lords, earls and dukes, usually had permission to issue liveries and badges to their household, servants and any men they led in wartime. A personal standard with that livery and bearing his badge(s), would also accompany such an individual, again to mark his position to his followers and to serve as a identifiable rallying point. These standards appear to have been 'swallow tailed'.
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-N7-RsqWchVQ/VXqRpw8wLSI/AAAAAAAAU5w/EnkzHKMc9w0/w606-h170-no/Ormond%2BStandard.png)
Earl of Ormond's Livery Banner displaying badges associated with him. There also seems to have been smaller single-tailed pennons in use, which may have been used for sub-sections of the household and permanent retinues (like later cavalry guidons).
'Company Standards'
Traditionally English units were divided into groups of 20 and 100. From muster rolls of the Hundred Years War, it seems that individual bodies of men raised by an individual of 'around 100 men' carried a standard. It is possible that individuals who raised large numbers of men identified each group of around 100 with one of their badges.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-Ra54P5cQgbw/VXqRt9XyIgI/AAAAAAAAU6A/9DUkjt9RgfU/w661-h170-no/Ormond%2Bstandards.png)
'Company Standards' based on the Earl's badges.
Apparently livery badges were hereditary within a family and associated with a title possessed by that family... so The Earl of Ormond had one for that title, another for being the Earl of Wiltshire, another for Lord of Wherever and so on.
Livery colours seem to have been changeable on the whim of its owner. John Howard as Lord Howard chose black for his followers initially, then went to blue when he became Duke of Norfolk. In 1483-4 his household men were still in blue, but he was also buying a lot of red and white cloth (the cheapest colours) presumably for the men he had promised to raise for King Richard III.
Anthony Woodville changed the livery of his servants every day through the course of a week long tournament. Lord Maltravers was another who liked black, but when he became the Earl of Arundel he changed to Red and White (as opposed to his father's plain red)... a few others did similar things.
There is a book by Freezywater publications "Standards, Banners and Livery Colours of the Wars of the Roses" (or something like that), which is fairly inexpensive and packed with standards. It may have the odd error, but it is perhaps the most comprehensive and closest to the mark for my money.
I don't claim the above as the complete and concise guide to banners and standards... it's just how I understand it. :)
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And that about sums it up.....
I'm glad that Arlequin got here before me :)
Darrell.
Hi Dirk... there is not actually a definitive answer for all that, just some conventions that were followed somewhat loosely. I have used illustrations from Citadel Six's site, so apologies for the watermarks.
Banners
Each knight or other person entitled to bear heraldic arms would have a banner displaying those arms, the size and shape determined by his 'rank', which conformed to those in the rest of Europe. These served no function other than to mark his presence on the battlefield.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-71PnBszh-VA/VXqRjfrohMI/AAAAAAAAU5g/ZRbbhs3jS-g/w239-h241-no/Ormond%2BBanner.png)
Earl of Ormond's Banner.
'Retinue' Standards
Individuals who were hereditary knights (not knights for 'life'), lords, earls and dukes, usually had permission to issue liveries and badges to their household, servants and any men they led in wartime. A personal standard with that livery and bearing his badge(s), would also accompany such an individual, again to mark his position to his followers and to serve as a identifiable rallying point. These standards appear to have been 'swallow tailed'.
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-N7-RsqWchVQ/VXqRpw8wLSI/AAAAAAAAU5w/EnkzHKMc9w0/w606-h170-no/Ormond%2BStandard.png)
Earl of Ormond's Livery Banner displaying badges associated with him. There also seems to have been smaller single-tailed pennons in use, which may have been used for sub-sections of the household and permanent retinues (like later cavalry guidons).
'Company Standards'
Traditionally English units were divided into groups of 20 and 100. From muster rolls of the Hundred Years War, it seems that individual bodies of men raised by an individual of 'around 100 men' carried a standard. It is possible that individuals who raised large numbers of men identified each group of around 100 with one of their badges.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-Ra54P5cQgbw/VXqRt9XyIgI/AAAAAAAAU6A/9DUkjt9RgfU/w661-h170-no/Ormond%2Bstandards.png)
'Company Standards' based on the Earl's badges.
Apparently livery badges were hereditary within a family and associated with a title possessed by that family... so The Earl of Ormond had one for that title, another for being the Earl of Wiltshire, another for Lord of Wherever and so on.
Livery colours seem to have been changeable on the whim of its owner. John Howard as Lord Howard chose black for his followers initially, then went to blue when he became Duke of Norfolk. In 1483-4 his household men were still in blue, but he was also buying a lot of red and white cloth (the cheapest colours) presumably for the men he had promised to raise for King Richard III.
Anthony Woodville changed the livery of his servants every day through the course of a week long tournament. Lord Maltravers was another who liked black, but when he became the Earl of Arundel he changed to Red and White (as opposed to his father's plain red)... a few others did similar things.
There is a book by Freezywater publications "Standards, Banners and Livery Colours of the Wars of the Roses" (or something like that), which is fairly inexpensive and packed with standards. It may have the odd error, but it is perhaps the most comprehensive and closest to the mark for my money.
I don't claim the above as the complete and concise guide to banners and standards... it's just how I understand it. :)
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Thanks, its more clear for me now
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Yeah, I knew that .... sure I did ... who says I didn't.
I may have to remember this thread.
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thanks for the info :)
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Thanks Arlequin. I'm going to find that book.
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You're welcome Gents! I suppose it's too late to ask Freezywater for commission huh? ;)
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You're welcome Gents! I suppose it's too late to ask Freezywater for commission huh? ;)
Why would we need Freezywater when we've got you? :D
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Because you never rely on just one source. ;)
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Thanks for that information on the flags and standards something that I have been looking at for sometime now all I have to do is put some in the army I have been painting and post you some photos thanks again lads the scott
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Personally I would just keep putting banners in until you are happy, almost like flower arranging
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I do so like your idea of lots of flags as we do it for the knights so why not the poor bloody foot and it is your army after all
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Personally I would just keep putting banners in until you are happy, almost like flower arranging
lol
My approach exactly.
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Personally I would just keep putting banners in until you are happy, almost like flower arranging
Well oddly that's how it would look and one of the reasons for the livery and standards. If you have a considerable number of esquires, 'county knights', life peers and anyone else who claims a coat of arms (i.e. a lot of people), it would get very confusing (particularly if it's a coat of arms four or five people are contesting their right to in the courts). Nigel the night-soil 'farmer' only has to match the colour of his livery jacket to the standard in the same colours to find his way over to his mates if he gets separated.
So yes, you can never have too many banners. :)
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As an aside, I wonder whether carrying the master's banner / standard / flag was regarded as a great honour or a pain in the arse? It's always struck me that if you have to carry a sodding great flapping lump of fabric around on a very tall heavy wooden pole, you would find it extremely hard to defend yourself one-handed - and yet you would by virtue of the role of standard-bearer have to be fairly near where the action is...
Not a duty calculated to do much for one's life expectancy, I wouldn't have thought... ::)
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As an aside, I wonder whether carrying the master's banner / standard / flag was regarded as a great honour or a pain in the arse?
I've found alot of things in the army that are quite capable of being both.
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I've found alot of things in the army that are quite capable of being both.
Beat me too it DB. As an RTO I was giving a lot more lea way then the other Joes. But at the same time a lot more was expected of me mentally and I guess the antennas are just as much of a target today as a banner would have been in the past.
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I've found a lot of things in the army that are quite capable of being both.
I'm pretty certain that this was the case here too. On the one hand the guy carrying the banner/standard would have a certain status... but he still has to carry it and be where his boss is; on the plus side he would be standing behind him.
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As an aside, I wonder whether carrying the master's banner / standard / flag was regarded as a great honour or a pain in the arse? It's always struck me that if you have to carry a sodding great flapping lump of fabric around on a very tall heavy wooden pole, you would find it extremely hard to defend yourself one-handed - and yet you would by virtue of the role of standard-bearer have to be fairly near where the action is...
Not a duty calculated to do much for one's life expectancy, I wouldn't have thought... ::)
My guess is that it was both a great honour but knowing human nature secretly a real pain in the arse too!
Darrell.
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As an aside, I wonder whether carrying the master's banner / standard / flag was regarded as a great honour or a pain in the arse? It's always struck me that if you have to carry a sodding great flapping lump of fabric around on a very tall heavy wooden pole, you would find it extremely hard to defend yourself one-handed - and yet you would by virtue of the role of standard-bearer have to be fairly near where the action is...
Not a duty calculated to do much for one's life expectancy, I wouldn't have thought...
It was, of course, a great honour to carry the flag. It was carried by a junior officer or sergeant and defended by chosen men, still called Colour Sergeants in the British army. Dangerous? Of course it was. You were carrying a huge target and any reading of ACW battles, for instance, revealed that every man would be a target, and the capture of an eagle or standard led to large rewards, promotion or medals.
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It was, of course, a great honour to carry the flag. It was carried by a junior officer or sergeant and defended by chosen men, still called Colour Sergeants in the British army.
In later times, yes of course - in the age of regimented, organised warfare from the pike and musket era on.
My pondering was specific to the late medieval.
If you were part of a small retinue of 40 or 50 men from a particular estate, and you were the chump 'honoured' with having to hold up your Lord's personal banner, and stand next to him in the front line thus encumbered, while some great bastard in full plate armour came at you with a poll-axe trying to smash your head in while you ineffectually attempt to fend him off one-handed, one suspects one would have pretty mixed feelings about it...
Some prestige - no doubt. But surely greatly shortened life expectancy too.
Well, I'd prefer to have both hands free if it were me... ;)
We shall never know, of course... ::)
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Well the guy who's job it would be in the WotR would be the 'costril' (and variations of the name thereof, or 'varlet' and 'valet de guerre' in Europe) who attended every 'proper' man at arms. If you were well-off enough to need a standard bearer as well as a banner bearer, you would give that 'honour' to one of the costrils of the accompanying men at arms you no doubt had in your retinue.
I would imagine even at this early date that in the foot 'companies' raised alongside the retinues, that there would be an 'Enseigne' or something like that, to carry its standard and who would count amongst the 'officers' as far as pay went (certainly such individuals existed in English armies in the HYW, as well as the French, Burgundian and Low Countries armies). The captain's own banner if he had one, likewise being carried by his attending costril.
Either way the job would go to someone of some renown, rank or experience... essentially the forerunners of the ensigns and colour-sergeants Joroas mentions. As the lowering (or indeed falling) of a banner or standard indicated the death of whoever or surrender, picking the numpty who could not tie his own pourpoint together, because he was good for nothing else, was not an option.
It is also probable that men were detailed off to guard the flags in battle too; Coventry supplied a small number of bills along with a much larger number of bows, to its men in one instance. It is believed that these were for 'watch and ward' in camp, but it can be imagined that they would also be used to defend the standard bearers too. The later colour-sergeants were used in this role, to defend the ensigns who actually carried the colours... every tradition starts somewhere.